Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 Last
  1. #1
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Teaneck, NJ
    Posts
    24

    LE Motorcycle Clubs/Sturgis Shooting

    1234567890
    Last edited by mpnj75TPD; 08-26-2008 at 11:16 AM.

  2. #2
    Verbal Sniper
    Smurfette_76's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Carolina Girl
    Posts
    9,594
    1) Paragraphs are your friend

    2) Your "facts" are still somewhat opinions.

    3) What are our views on what? You've crammed so much stuff in there, by time I got to the end, I forgot what the beginning said.


    I don't agree with your opinion, but I respect its straightforwardness in terms of wrongness.

  3. #3
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Teaneck, NJ
    Posts
    24
    1234567890
    Last edited by mpnj75TPD; 08-26-2008 at 11:13 AM.

  4. #4
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    On the road to Shambala.......
    Posts
    205
    Quote Originally Posted by mpnj75TPD View Post
    Iron Pigs MC a LEMC member shot a Hells ANgel MC member a 1%MC, in Sturgis. Reports from people on scene say IPMC member was sucker punched and knocked to the ground and began to get stomped and kicked in the head by members of HAMC. The IPMC member thus being in danger of serious physical injury or death pulled his off-duty weapon and fired striking a HAMC member in the stomach and leg. Incident currently under investigation by several law enforcment agencies.
    Sounds about right from what I’ve read so far however I do believe it is still under investigation/review. As always, because I’m a cop, the benefit of the doubt goes to the officer however if the investigation reveals something else, then it will be dealt with appropriately methinks.

    Quote Originally Posted by mpnj75TPD View Post
    First off before anyone even comments on this subject read the following. I want it clean. No disrespect to anyone. Mature adult conversation. Have an open mind.
    Okay.

    Quote Originally Posted by mpnj75TPD View Post
    Also read these facts:
    Fact #1: Motorcyle CLubs and the 3 piece patch design predate 1% motorcycle clubs, the first motorcycle club who were not 1 % and had a 3 piece patch date back to 1935 and was compromised of war vets and working class Americans.
    If you say so. I have no personal knowledge either way and have not done the research to either support or contradict your statement. I will take it at face value and as factual for purposes of this discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by mpnj75TPD View Post
    Fact #2: Most 1% motorcycle clubs did not start as 1% clubs and evolved into them.
    Okay, I believe that also since I’m sure at the time of the formation of the first motorcycle clubs, the idea of “1%” of motorcycle riders being “bad” or “outlaw” or “criminal” or whatever didn’t occur to them.

    Quote Originally Posted by mpnj75TPD View Post
    Fact #3: The style of ones dress (Baggy clothes, wallet chains, bandanas, exc..), what they ride (Motorcycle, low rider, monster truck, exc.) or if they are a member of a motorcycle club (3 piece patch, 2 piece patch, 1 piece patch, exc.) is the free right of any American and in no way gives anyone, LE or Civilian cause to discriminate against them and have prejudice and include them in same cadigory with a criminal element who may wear similar style of dress. The Nazi's wore uniforms, so do US Soldiers and Police.
    Well, now we part ways just a bit. While I don’t have a problem with law enforcement motorcycle clubs in general, if your club is set up, run and looks like an outlaw club, trouble will find you, regardless of your intention. As has been said in other posts, if an LAPD Officer who is black dresses up in baggy clothes and “flies” a red rag while walking through Crip territory gets assaulted or shot at, he was part of the problem, not the solution. Now, do I personally care if that happens? Do I care if the cops want to dress like outlaw bikers and have a club that is set up like an outlaw biker club? Not really. The flip side is, I don’t want them whining when bad things happen because they chose to do it. If the officer was justified, he was justified and we will find out. If not, then we will find that out too. But don’t complain about bad things happening when you intentionally put yourself in a situation where bad things are likely to happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by mpnj75TPD View Post
    Fact #4: Just because someone may talk to or even know a member of a 1% Motorcycle CLub in no way makes that person an "Affilate" or a criminal. As long as they are not involved in the commision of criminal activity or oberserve but not act in presence of criminal activity they are in no way acting in conduct unbecoming or otherwise. (there are many cops/civilians who may know, have family members, neighbors whatever who are in a 1% mc. As long as they do not participate or be present but not act or become involved in anything illegal than under the American Constitution they are doing nothing wrong)
    I’m not sure about your Department, but both of the Departments that I’ve worked for had a policy forbidding sworn personnel from fraternizing with felons, family not withstanding. Take it for what it is worth.

    Quote Originally Posted by mpnj75TPD View Post
    Fact #5: LEMC have the God given American right to wear patch with 3, 1 or 20 patches. 1% DO NOT regulate style of dress, the road, bars/taverns or anything else for that matter. America is a free country and we ALL have the right to ride, dress and go wherever we want without fear of discrimination by ANYONE.
    Uh..........no, this is absolutely not true and a ridiculous statement at best. There have been plenty of court ordered injunctions against gangs in California forbidding them from associating with other gang members and/or frequenting certain places. These have been challenged in various courts and found to be perfectly acceptable and constitutional. Also, you can’t go “wherever we(you) want” without fear of discrimination. Do you think a white guy can attend a Black Panther Party meeting without fear of discrimination? Can a Jew attend an American Nazi Party meeting without being discriminated against? As a matter of fact, a bar, while a public place, is also private property and entry can be denied to any person for pretty much no reason at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by mpnj75TPD View Post
    Fact #6: LEMC are NOT emulating 1% clubs. They are in fact a Motorcycle Club and since motorcycle clubs have been around they are compromised of guys/gals who ride motorcycles and have a vest with a center patch denoting club logo, top patch denoting club name and may or may not have a bottom patch denoting location. 1% mcs do not have right to claim this as "their" design" they in fact copied this design from motorcycle clubs and went on to become law breaking scumbags thus giving the image a bad name. The image is though in fact still a free right of any American and they should not be discriminated against because some scum look similar.
    I’ll take your word for it as to the origins of the three patch design as it relates to motorcycle clubs. That being said, you have the right to wear your patch. You also have the responsibility to deal with the consequences when your law enforcement motorcycle club is mistaken for a rival outlaw motorcycle club and is attacked by the Hell’s Angels.

    Quote Originally Posted by mpnj75TPD View Post
    Fact #7: Most 1% MCs hate us cops and wouldnt think twice before stabbing, shooting or beating us to death.
    While I agree that outlaw motorcycle clubs aren’t exactly law enforcement friendly, most would think twice(or more) about attacking a cop. They know what happens if they do and they are aware of the consequences that it brings down on the club in general. Not saying they won’t, but they generally won’t unless it has been authorized by a higher authority within the club.

    Quote Originally Posted by mpnj75TPD View Post
    Fact #8: Most civilain motorcycle riders ride in fear because these 1% scumbags try to exert fear and control over anyone who rides a motorcycle or wants to belong to a regular non-1% MC.
    Uh.......once again, no. Most motorcycle riders, regardless of what they ride, go about their daily business and riding their scooters and never give a thought to outlaw motorcycle clubs. That is because most riders don’t wear a three piece back patch on their denim or leather jacket that could be easily mistaken, or possibly emulates, the style of patch worn by outlaw motorcycle clubs.

    Quote Originally Posted by mpnj75TPD View Post
    With all that being said let it be known that I am an avid motorcycle rider. I was in my PDs motorcycle unit for 2 years before I became a Narcotics detective. I don’t belong to any clubs because I don’t want to deal with all the hassle from 1% MCs or my own LE brothers who look down and discriminate against seemingly EVERYONE who rides a motorcycle.
    I have never experienced what you are talking about when it comes to cops “discriminating” against cops for wanting to ride a motorcycle. Once again, I don’t doubt your experience and take your word for it although I have no response to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by mpnj75TPD View Post
    What is all your views on this and please try not to argue on here with anyone who may have a differing opinion. Discuss this like mature adults and if you have to agree to disagree. Thank you.
    I’d like to think I complied with your request to discuss this issue calmly and rationally. Take it for what is worth............which ain’t much.
    Vir rationem suorum gestorum libenter reddit,
    sive iustorum sive iniustorum.
    Eventus horum non detrectat,
    sed cum his cotidie vivit.

  5. #5
    IMachU
    Guest
    Too many rules. I'm out.

  6. #6
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    On the road to Shambala.......
    Posts
    205
    Quote Originally Posted by IMachU View Post
    Too many rules. I'm out.
    The only rule, when you cut through it, was please be civil. Aside from that, his post was hard to read. I cut and pasted it into a word processor where I could open it up a bit to better understand what he was saying. It was some work but I was bored...........................
    Vir rationem suorum gestorum libenter reddit,
    sive iustorum sive iniustorum.
    Eventus horum non detrectat,
    sed cum his cotidie vivit.

  7. #7
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Teaneck, NJ
    Posts
    24
    1234567890
    Last edited by mpnj75TPD; 08-26-2008 at 11:13 AM.

  8. #8
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Teaneck, NJ
    Posts
    24
    1234567890
    Last edited by mpnj75TPD; 08-26-2008 at 11:13 AM.

  9. #9
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    On the road to Shambala.......
    Posts
    205
    Quote Originally Posted by mpnj75TPD View Post
    Kilrain: On the contrary I value your statement and think it is worth its weight.
    Thank you. I saw a post that I thought many would skip over and not give serious answers to simply because it wasn’t well written. This post is much easier to read. In retrospect, it is obvious that this is a subject that you feel strongly about and you first post was written with more passion than attention to grammar. No problem, we all get P.O.’d from time to time.

    Quote Originally Posted by mpnj75TPD View Post
    You are correct in that if anyone chooses to wear a patch and dress or hang out in certain places then yes they have to deal with the possibility of certain consequences.
    This is the basis for all that follows. As long as you are willing to accept the consequences of your actions, I have no problem with what happens after that. Just don’t whine about it, that’s all. Not saying you would, just saying.

    Quote Originally Posted by mpnj75TPD View Post
    Fraternizing with fellons is wrong yes. I simply meant in the "real" world if you have a neighbor who is say an HA or your auto mechanic then obviously you will have certain limited dealings with that person and that doesnt really classify as fraternizing. Even say you are at a bar and you run into this person in a public setting and he buys you a beer or the reverse that too is not fraternizing. Now if you are at outlaw club events with this person and partying with patched members of an outlaw mc then you have crossed the line.
    I hear what you are saying. As a matter of fact, my mechanic for many years was a convicted felon for serious drug charges. That is not what I was talking about and not what you are talking about as is now clear. As for a Hell’s Angel buying me a beer, I’d have to politely decline for a myriad of reasons, fraternization being the least of my worries. My main concern would be for my safety, not knowing what he may have put in, or had put in, the beer.

    While Sturgis is an all comers type event, most non-biker types, rightly or wrongly, probably see it as primarily an outlaw motorcycle club event. While that perception may not be fair, it is real and we must never forget that in the minds of the public, perception is reality. Once we get to court, things change and the actual facts begin to matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by mpnj75TPD View Post
    We can go wherever we want if it is a public place. Now if a private owned bar doesnt let you in obviously you cant go in. Thats just common sence. I meant an outlaw mc has no right to declare a bar there clubs property and ban cops or anyone else for that matter from going there. Once again if an outlaw mc hangs somewhere and you go there then once again you have to deal with the possibility of something bad happening.
    Yes, an outlaw motorcycle club can’t just declare a location “theirs.” However if the proprietor of a particular location allows them in, guess what they think? They, like most predatory animals, will take what they can get and when given an inch will take a mile. Bottom line, as you stated, is that if you go somewhere that the Hell’s Angels are hanging out, accept the consequences of your actions when it all goes horribly wrong.


    Quote Originally Posted by mpnj75TPD View Post
    As for outlaw mcs hating cops and not thinking twice about doing violence to us. Obviously they arnt going to outright attack us because we outnumber them and we are the law. I meant that they do in fact despise us and if given the opportunity not all but some might possibly act on that hatred as example by what happened in Sturgis.
    Yes, they don’t like us and would attack and harm us any way they could IF they could get away with it. Although I don’t know what happened specifically in this case, I get the impression that the Hell’s Angels probably didn’t know that the Iron Pigs was a law enforcement motorcycle club. Perhaps I’ll be proved wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by mpnj75TPD View Post
    As far as regular motorcycle guys riding in fear of outlaw mcs. Of course people arnt in total fear. But you can believe if the average guy on a harley comes upon patched members of a 1%MC his OH-**** factor went up a few notches. Especially if you are a member of a non-1%MC and live in an area where 1%MCs are prevelant.
    Maybe, maybe not. In my area we have not had a major problem with outlaw clubs in many years. In fact, the last run in we(the cops) had with them turned out to be no problem since we called in off duty Deputies and actually outnumbered the Hell’s Angels at the particular event.

    As for somebody’s feelings when a 1%er rides up next to him......well, there is no accounting for human feelings or frailties.

    Quote Originally Posted by mpnj75TPD View Post
    Hopefully not in your area but in mine yes saddly a lot of cops IA included look down on cops who ride harleys, have tattoos and belong no LEMC or local non-1% MCs. It’s a sad fact that hopefully changes.
    That sucks. Last time I heard something like this at my Department was a couple of years ago. A newly promoted Lieutenant made a comment about an off duty Deputy’s tattoos and how he looked like a parolee. Once his comments made the rounds in the Department, the new Lieutenant was told to shut his mouth and keep his opinions to himself.

    Quote Originally Posted by mpnj75TPD View Post
    Thank you for your comments, I value everyones statements. Its good to get lots of different views.
    I agree. Good luck with your post.
    Vir rationem suorum gestorum libenter reddit,
    sive iustorum sive iniustorum.
    Eventus horum non detrectat,
    sed cum his cotidie vivit.

  10. #10
    Frank Booth
    Guest
    In regards to your statement that my facts are opinions. Actually they are fact.
    I thought the same thing she did. They look like opinion to me.

    Cop clubs aren't trying to look like 1%er's? Riiiight.

  11. #11
    Forum Member
    cocoa25's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Florida-Central
    Posts
    239
    I like brownies, they are good.
    Me in the Sunshine State

    10-8store.com

    "I care not what others think of what I do, but I care very much about what I think of what I do. That is character!"

  12. #12
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Teaneck, NJ
    Posts
    24
    1234567890
    Last edited by mpnj75TPD; 08-26-2008 at 11:14 AM.

  13. #13
    Frank Booth
    Guest
    Frank Booth: Once again motorcycle clubs have been around long before 1%.
    And the "Swastika" symbol was around long before Hitler was born and had nothing to do with Nazis. Big deal. It's become almost exclusively associated with Nazi's just like many of the 1%er icons have become almost exclusively assoicated with them. Long hair, unwashed rags, 3-piece patches, and on, and on. People who dress like scumbags (and that's what 1%ers are, period), are going to be associated with scumbags whether they are or not. They know this and I can't help but think many of them enjoy it and that's the end result they're after.

    Either way, why a bunch of grown men would have a need to "play dress-up" after putting in 25 years wearing a uniform is beyond me. They're exchanging one uniform for another, one book of "general orders" for another, they have to be "rookies" all over again, be on "probation" all over again. More power to them if thats the way they roll, but in my OPINION, I think it's a little bit weird. And in some cases, a LOT a bit weird as some of these cops, former cops and retired cops start hanging out with 1%ers.
    Last edited by Frank Booth; 08-15-2008 at 10:26 PM.

  14. #14
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Teaneck, NJ
    Posts
    24
    1234567890
    Last edited by mpnj75TPD; 08-26-2008 at 11:14 AM.

  15. #15
    Forum Member
    sabrerattler's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Austin Texas
    Posts
    44
    My daddy taught me " If you lay down with dogs dont be surprised if you get up with fleas"
    Why is it that the further up the chain of command an officer goes, the less of a consept they have of what the job on the street is all about?

  16. #16
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    phoenix, az
    Posts
    2,362
    I tend to agree more with Kilrain & FB on this ---- aside from the "dress-up" issue & freedom to go & do whatever you want, common sense simply dictates that an LEO shouldn't do the 1%er "thing".
    First off LEOs belong to the the biggest "gang" in the world (if your desire is to be part of a "gang") so nothing else should really matter. Second, ALL of us I'm sure worked hard to wear that badge & would be as quick to defend our Right to it as any HA would his colors. Third, by placing yourself in/among the 1%er group/culture you're simply asking for a confrontation, as that's how alot (not all) live. Think I'm lying? Why did the HA prospect attack him in the first place.
    I guess the added point I'm trying to make is --- with a LE job, WHY put yourself in the more "intensive" (?) crosshairs of the outlaw MC world?

  17. #17
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Teaneck, NJ
    Posts
    24
    1234567890
    Last edited by mpnj75TPD; 08-26-2008 at 11:14 AM.

  18. #18
    Frank Booth
    Guest
    Just because some people decide to be scum and criminals does not give you the right to condemn everyone who looks similar.
    But I certainly have the right to make inferences based on what I observe. That's what cops do. 1%ers have a badass reputation and I think some cops are trying to emulate their image for some reason. Actually, I DO have the right to look down on them based only on what they're wearing if I want.....I have as much right to do that as they do to wear stuff that is offensive to others. It's funny that someone mentioned the fact that LE M/C clubs "give back to the community" by doing "Toys For Tots" runs. Haven't you ever seen a local outlaw group do the same thing to polish their image?

    the minute you cross the line and start pointing fingers and discriminating then you are wrong.
    "Wrong" about what?

    I guess once again it comes down to if you dont ride a harley and are not into motorcycle culture you wouldnt understand.
    Yeah, if you ride a Jap bike, you couldn't possible "understand" the motorcycle culture. Sorry, but buying a Harley is nothing more than the price of admission into the "club". The lack of a Harley doesn't make it any less possible to "understand" what's going on. The "Harley culture" is nothing more than a very successful branding and marketing campaign.

    It's kinda funny that you require riding a Harley as a prerequisite to understanding "the motorcycle culture". Sounds like you drank the Kool-Aid!
    Last edited by Frank Booth; 08-17-2008 at 12:19 AM.

  19. #19
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Gilbert Arizona
    Posts
    2,112
    Ummmm I have a Harley and I have no desire to be part of or dress like a 1% club member....I'm kind of confused because I ride a Harley and I don't know what culture you're talking about.

  20. #20
    Forum Member
    TheInlandEmpire's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    California
    Posts
    361
    Of course HA's know which MC's are law enforcement!!! That's very naive to think they don't know who the police MC organizations are. These people aren't stupid. They do their homework on us, and they hate us with a passion. Especially cops who want to look and be like them by joining these copy cat police clubs. It's widely known they're offended by this. These thugs would jump at the first chance to rat pack and assault (or even kill) an off duty cop.

    It's plain stupid to go to places where outlaw bikers are going to be, flaunt that your a cop, mimicking their outlaw style of dress, and not expect problems or animosities. This incident is going to make it even more difficult for gang experts to do their job in court, because these defense attorneys ALWAYS point out law enforcement MC's who dress like outlaws, wear the oulaw style patches,,and try to act like them. Alot of juries are having MAJOR problems with this comparison. I'm not saying this cop wasn't justified shooting,,but I join in with some of the other forum members here who see how idiotic LE Motor Cycle Clubs are who copy the outlaw culture.
    Last edited by TheInlandEmpire; 08-17-2008 at 03:17 AM.

  21. #21
    Forum Member
    TheInlandEmpire's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    California
    Posts
    361
    Quote Originally Posted by mpnj75TPD View Post
    "1%er thing", "1%er group/culture":

    I guess once again it comes down to if you dont ride a harley and are not into motorcycle culture you wouldnt understand. Its a big world out there, we all gotta live in it and as LE all we have is eachother, lets not point fingers. Thanx for your comments guys they are appreciatted.
    No offense cause I'm picking on some of your views, but, come on.. Only "motorcycle culture" people would understand?? How would you define the motorcycle culture? (minus the three patch outlaw gang type look),,because the average motorcycle "Gold Wing" types count too, right?

    I mean..what if I was a motorcycle fanatic (let's say Harley's with the monkey handle bars..ect..), And, lets say I was part of a large club that wore florescent colored IZOD T-shirts (with the collar flipped up and everything!),,or even bright colored "WHAM UK-CHOOSE LIFE" T-Shirts with those 1970's "dolphin" running shorts,,,,,long white gym socks that go up to your knee caps (stripes at the top..lol),,Now, would they be accepted as part of the motorcycle culture? Or would they not understand the true motorcycle culture?

  22. #22
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Teaneck, NJ
    Posts
    24
    1234567890
    Last edited by mpnj75TPD; 08-26-2008 at 11:14 AM.

  23. #23
    Frank Booth
    Guest
    You guys are trying to make this argumentative and not seeing the overall aspect I am trying to cover here.
    Exactly which aspect of what topic are you trying to "cover" here and why? Your first post came across as not much more than an attempt to impress us with your knowledge of 1%er and police motorcycle clubs and the diffference between the two. And you went about it by posting a bunch of opinion and calling it "fact".

    Do you really expect to be accepted as an expert on M/C stuff here just because you say so?

    And why post all that stuff, ask for peoples' views and then say "don't argue"? You come across as rather condescending, don't you think?

    If you don't want to argue your position, don't post a bunch of opinion you can't back up and then ask for peoples' opinion!

    For example, this is some of the most condescending crap I've ever read here!

    First off before anyone even comments on this subject read the following. I want it clean. No disrespect to anyone. Mature adult conversation.
    Nobody but a Harley Rider can understand the "motorcycle culture"?? How condescending can you be? That's what "my deal is".

    Frank Booth: First off Im not a member of any motorcycle club LE or otherwise. I am in fact an undercover officer who is working on several cases involving 1%.
    Are you REALLY an "undercover officer"? For real? With a separate identity and everything? Fake plates on a U/C vehicle registered to your U/C name and address, separate driver license in your U/C name, the whole nine yards? If so, what the HELL are you talking about it on here for!?!!? And why would your department sink all those resources into establishing you as a U/C officer if you're so desperate to quit and go to CA? You must be REALLY good! But if you can't convince us you know what you're talking about, I truly hope the only 1%ers you deal with while "undercover" are really stupid and lack even the most basic insight.
    Last edited by Frank Booth; 08-17-2008 at 01:11 PM.

  24. #24
    Forum Member
    TheInlandEmpire's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    California
    Posts
    361
    Every deputy or police officer I know who works intel on outlaw MC's (including "UC" stuff like standing or walking around an open biker function where outlaws might attend) will tell you that it's idiotic to belong to a LE motorcycle club that has outlaw style patches and symbols. It's doing law enforcement a disservice. This incident just gave dirt bag outlaw defense attorneys more ammunition to say the LE MC's are no different than their clients club. Of course it's not true,,but it looks bad.

  25. #25
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    CA
    Posts
    206
    I have no problem with LE having a MC club, but I do have a problem when they wear the same style "cuts" with similar style patches as the outlaw gangs. I think it not only gives attorneys ammo, but blurs the line between "us" and "them" to the general public. Many people don't know the real truth about the outlaw MC gangs. Yes "gangs" and not "clubs". Many civilians think the HA are just like shriners. They only see them when they are in the newspaper having toy drives and blood drives.

    I have some first hand knowledge of the outlaw gangs and live in a highly populated outlaw area. My patrol area has multiple outlaw gang houses. They would not think twice about harming you if they thought they could get away with it. If you think different, try handling their cuts or even tell them you are confiscating it for safekeeping. I don't know if the LE clubs are engaged in any type of criminal behavior, but I do think it's asking for problems. Just my $.02

Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 Last

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Log in

Click here to log in or register