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Thread: So you want to buy an AR-15, huh?

  1. #651
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    Confused but getting there

    Great thread. This is my second time having read through it after being given the link by a SWAT friend of mine. I'll be purchasing an upper and lower from CMMG to build a self defense AR15. This has save me a lot of grief as i was originally looking at the Oly Arms. and Bushy as a platform. Mine AR15 will be a 16". Will post pics when it is all assembled. Thanks Jwise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldSalt View Post
    Great thread. This is my second time having read through it after being given the link by a SWAT friend of mine. I'll be purchasing an upper and lower from CMMG to build a self defense AR15. This has save me a lot of grief as i was originally looking at the Oly Arms. and Bushy as a platform. Mine AR15 will be a 16". Will post pics when it is all assembled. Thanks Jwise.
    I'm very glad it has helped. You're most welcome.
    J. Wise

    AR-15 - AK-47 - NFA Trusts - My Pick - Carry Guns - 1911s

    "Some say you can tell how the world stands by the prices of AK-47s...." Chit2001

    Any comments contained herein regarding the legality of firearms, or the application of law, are strictly applicable to Texas. If you live in CA, NY, IL, MA, D.C., etc., the above comments will probably shock you, and should be read for educational purposes only. Most likely nothing I write will apply to you.


  3. #653
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwise View Post
    This is what it will look like with the 3X magnifier:



    It fits, but the front of the EOTech will hang out over the handguards.

    The EOTech 557 will be the one you will want, as it has the on/off buttons on the side so you can get to them. In addition, it has a smaller reticle that will work better with a magnified optic.
    Yeah, but I mean with the regular tapered forearm. It seems to rise a tiny bit above the rail, which means you couldn't 'hang' the Eotech off the front, so you'd need some kind of aftermarket forearm, correct?

  4. #654
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    Quote Originally Posted by phoenixdown View Post
    Yeah, but I mean with the regular tapered forearm. It seems to rise a tiny bit above the rail, which means you couldn't 'hang' the Eotech off the front, so you'd need some kind of aftermarket forearm, correct?
    yeah mine is set as far forward as possible i have not purchased the rail system for it..with your proposed setup, it wouldn't work..now most of the rails are a bit lower profile just forward of where the hand guard ring is, so itd probably work, i was assuming regular hand guards, my bad.
    In the end we're all just chalk lines on the concrete drawn only to be washed away, for the time that I've been given, I am what I am. I'd rather you hate me for everything I am, Than have you love me for being something that Im not

  5. #655
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    This riser for the flat-top receiver is under the accessories tab at CMMG for $44.95 (much cheaper than a railed handguard).
    I would think this would allow you EOTech to clear the standard handguard.

    I'm not sure how the use of this riser would affect iron sights, if someone could please speak to that.

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    Get some CAR handguards, and the EOTech should fit over it just fine. They are smaller than the M4 handguards. You should be able to get them for less than $20 anywhere.

    Here's a picture of a 512 forward mounted over M4 handguards, and using the LaRue riser. This is the other option.

    J. Wise

    AR-15 - AK-47 - NFA Trusts - My Pick - Carry Guns - 1911s

    "Some say you can tell how the world stands by the prices of AK-47s...." Chit2001

    Any comments contained herein regarding the legality of firearms, or the application of law, are strictly applicable to Texas. If you live in CA, NY, IL, MA, D.C., etc., the above comments will probably shock you, and should be read for educational purposes only. Most likely nothing I write will apply to you.


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    This is the rail:



    Another mount designed by request. Our EO mount jacks the EO up by .275". This extra height sticks the irons low in the EO window...you can still see the irons if push-comes-to-shove. These are selling like candy. The extra height is just what the EO has been needing. The design had room for a piece-of-picatinny on the back, so we put it there and now you can mount a PVS-14 in perfect co-witness.

    From a review of the product:

    With the "Low" LT Aimpoint 3x multiplier I can simply use the magnifier mount on the EOtech ECOS mount. Both optics are perfectly co-located with each other.

    Price: $120 (Hey, it's LaRue!)
    Last edited by jwise; 12-12-2008 at 08:55 AM.
    J. Wise

    AR-15 - AK-47 - NFA Trusts - My Pick - Carry Guns - 1911s

    "Some say you can tell how the world stands by the prices of AK-47s...." Chit2001

    Any comments contained herein regarding the legality of firearms, or the application of law, are strictly applicable to Texas. If you live in CA, NY, IL, MA, D.C., etc., the above comments will probably shock you, and should be read for educational purposes only. Most likely nothing I write will apply to you.


  8. #658
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    CAR Handguards:

    CAR handguards were the original handguards sold on the early CAR-15 by Colt. Colt switched to the fatter, oval shaped handguards when they developed the M4, which is why the larger handguards are called "M4" handguards.

    Bushmaster still sells its rifles with heat-shielded CAR handguards. Here's a picture showing the M4 Patrolman's Carbine with CAR handguards:




    So- Your options are:

    1- Buy a set of CAR handguards for <$20, and mount everything where you want it as seen in the above picture.
    2- Buy a LaRue Tactical riser for $120 (or similar riser for ~$50 that may or may not work right) that will raise your optics up over your M4 handguards and put your iron sights in the lower 1/3rd of the viewfinder.
    3- Buy a railed forearm for $175 (Troy MRF-C) and stretch things out a bit.

    Your call...



    PS- I'm assuming your have a carbine, not a midlength or a rifle. If my assumption is wrong, this might change things.
    Last edited by jwise; 12-12-2008 at 09:11 AM.
    J. Wise

    AR-15 - AK-47 - NFA Trusts - My Pick - Carry Guns - 1911s

    "Some say you can tell how the world stands by the prices of AK-47s...." Chit2001

    Any comments contained herein regarding the legality of firearms, or the application of law, are strictly applicable to Texas. If you live in CA, NY, IL, MA, D.C., etc., the above comments will probably shock you, and should be read for educational purposes only. Most likely nothing I write will apply to you.


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    If we are to order the top >16 and the lower separately from CMMG, do we still need Form one for NFA?
    "I carry a gun cause a cop is too heavy." - unknown

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    Jwise quick question... My department just ordered 12 RRA AR's with what the Sheriff said to be a 10 inch barrel. Is that even an option? I thought 16 was as short as they came. But if so...

    What malfunctions / accuracy issues can I expect from my stubby new patrol rifle?
    Last edited by Hoosier_Boy; 12-12-2008 at 10:48 AM.

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    16" barrels, are as short as they come untill they go shorter than they are registered under the NFA with the ATF. So these would be extra paperwork guns.

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    Basic Package

    I think I have my basic Self Defense package put together, but some feedback/recommendations may be in order. Here is what I'm considering:
    CMMG Lower-complete , standard buffer, standard endplate, A2 pistol grip, Magpul winter trigger guard, gapper BS-5 % position carbine stock.$315.90

    CMMG upper mid-length 16": A3 receiver, full auot bolt and carrier, anodized ramp,A2 sightpost, "F" mark frontsight base, round fwd assist, std hand guards, YHM solid rear sight , Phantom hider.$659.90

    Total:$975.80

    This should get me started until I see what dress up items I wish to add, such as free float handguard, improved sights, etc.

    Is there anything you'd suggest changing or as a must have before I place my order.

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    Quote Originally Posted by daspy21 View Post
    If we are to order the top >16 and the lower separately from CMMG, do we still need Form one for NFA?
    Fed law states that rifles must have barrels of at least 16". RIFLES do not need any further paperwork than the standard 4473 transfer form you fill out at the shop, and a quick background check call to NICS.

    Firearms with a shoulder stock and barrels <16" are called SBRs. They need to be registered with the ATF through the NFA Form 1 application process.

    If you don't want to mess with the NFA process ($200 tax stamp everytime you do), or you can't for some local reason, stick with 16" barrels. When I say "16in barrels", that could also mean 14.5" barrels with a 1.5" flash hider permanently welded on. It must be 16" overall length of barrel.
    J. Wise

    AR-15 - AK-47 - NFA Trusts - My Pick - Carry Guns - 1911s

    "Some say you can tell how the world stands by the prices of AK-47s...." Chit2001

    Any comments contained herein regarding the legality of firearms, or the application of law, are strictly applicable to Texas. If you live in CA, NY, IL, MA, D.C., etc., the above comments will probably shock you, and should be read for educational purposes only. Most likely nothing I write will apply to you.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoosier_Boy View Post
    Jwise quick question... My department just ordered 12 RRA AR's with what the Sheriff said to be a 10 inch barrel. Is that even an option? I thought 16 was as short as they came. But if so...

    What malfunctions / accuracy issues can I expect from my stubby new patrol rifle?
    The department can buy anything it wants (machineguns, SBRs, etc...) to issue to its troops. You can't take ownership of it without going through the NFA process, but you can take POSSESSION of it as a LEO.

    As for reliability, make sure it has the O-ring over the extractor spring.
    J. Wise

    AR-15 - AK-47 - NFA Trusts - My Pick - Carry Guns - 1911s

    "Some say you can tell how the world stands by the prices of AK-47s...." Chit2001

    Any comments contained herein regarding the legality of firearms, or the application of law, are strictly applicable to Texas. If you live in CA, NY, IL, MA, D.C., etc., the above comments will probably shock you, and should be read for educational purposes only. Most likely nothing I write will apply to you.


  15. #665
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldSalt View Post
    I think I have my basic Self Defense package put together, but some feedback/recommendations may be in order. Here is what I'm considering:
    CMMG Lower-complete , standard buffer, standard endplate, A2 pistol grip, Magpul winter trigger guard, gapper BS-5 % position carbine stock.$315.90

    CMMG upper mid-length 16": A3 receiver, full auot bolt and carrier, anodized ramp,A2 sightpost, "F" mark frontsight base, round fwd assist, std hand guards, YHM solid rear sight , Phantom hider.$659.90

    Total:$975.80

    This should get me started until I see what dress up items I wish to add, such as free float handguard, improved sights, etc.

    Is there anything you'd suggest changing or as a must have before I place my order.
    Sounds like a winner! GOOD choice...


    FISH4LIFE- Check out OldSalt's option choices. He picked some good ones.
    Last edited by jwise; 12-12-2008 at 12:19 PM.
    J. Wise

    AR-15 - AK-47 - NFA Trusts - My Pick - Carry Guns - 1911s

    "Some say you can tell how the world stands by the prices of AK-47s...." Chit2001

    Any comments contained herein regarding the legality of firearms, or the application of law, are strictly applicable to Texas. If you live in CA, NY, IL, MA, D.C., etc., the above comments will probably shock you, and should be read for educational purposes only. Most likely nothing I write will apply to you.


  16. #666
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    6/8/11 - I haven't looked at this in a while. I will leave it alone for archival sake, but I would now make some changes. First off, I would go with BCM. CMMG is no longer what it once was. Too bad, really. Furthermore, I would get one of the V-TAC 2-point slings instead of the 3-pt. I really like the one I have on my Sig 556.

    Here's my EXACT pick from CMMG:

    CMMG 16" Mid-Length Upper (SKU/Part No: U-1605)
    Options:
    Receiver: A3
    Bolt and Carrier: Full-Auto Carrier
    Bolt and Carrier Group Upgrade: No Bolt Group Upgrade* (middy's don't need any upgrade)
    Charging Handle Upgrade: No Charging Handle Upgrade
    Feed Ramp Option: Anodized Ramps
    Front Sight: A2 Post
    Front Sight Base: F Marked Front Sight Base
    Forward Assist Option: Round Forward Assist
    Handguard Option: Standard Mid-Length Tapered Handguard*
    Rear Sight Option: No Rear Sight*
    Hider Option: A2 Hider*

    * The options marked with an asterisk are personal choice, and represent the base line. If you want to spend more, and get a nifty flash hider, or an LMT enhanced bolt, or a railed forearm, knock yourself out. Those items are not needed, and so I am not selecting them here. I do not have a rear sight selected, because I prefer the LaRue BUIS, which is not an option.

    As I said on page one, each person has his own tactical parameters he must adhere to. Most of you won't be able to carry NFA toys (SBRs, Sound Suppressors, etc..) on duty. This means your barrel length has to be 16" long, and since I don't like welded on FHs, the actual BARREL must be 16".

    If I'm stuck with a 16" barrel, I will choose a Midlength gas system in order to get the most out of my rifle. If this were to be a SWAT gun, and I could carry a SBR (Short Barreled Rifle), I would get the carbine length gas system in a 10.5" barrel. I can't think of a reason I would want a 20" rifle, but to each his own.

    With the midlength gas system chosen, I will also want a gov't profile (or equivalent) barrel weight. The barrel will be 1/7 twist chrome-lined and will have M4 feedramps, F-marked FSB, etc... The rifle selection above represents these preferences. If I have the extra cash, I'd go ahead and get the bolt upgrade to the EGRESS, or get the LMT enhanced bolt. Neither of these are necessary with the midlength gas system, but if I had the cash, I might do this. Or, I'd just go to Home Depot, buy a package of O-rings for $1, and stick one over the extractor spring on my own.

    As for rails, I selected no upgrades. I'll go through a complete setup for a rifle with standard handguards, then do a second setup for one with rails.

    Sights and Optics

    Since I'm assuming this would be for patrol use, I would mount an EOTech on the flattop, and put a LaRue fixed BUIS behind it. This is my current setup, so no surprise there.




    Standard Handguards

    If I stayed with the standard tapered handguards, I'd keep the current light mount I'm running, which is the TDI bayonet lug mount.



    It allows the user to attach a standard handgun light, like the M3 series by Streamlight. Pictured below is the M3LED:



    Doing it all over again, I'd put one of the newer M3X lights with a rifle plate on the back. This would give me more "throw", but keep the lockout capabilties I have now. Another option would be the SSL-1 or X-300. Either way, it would be a small unit with around 100 lumens and rated as weapongrade.

    Railed Forearm

    If I decided to get a railed forearm, I'd get the Troy MRF-M. This is NOT the only good choice, this is just MY choice. I'd mount a Tango Down Vertical Foregrip close to the receiver, and a Daniel Defense Offset Weaponlight Mount on the 3 o'clock rail. I'm not sure which light I'd go with, as there have been new models coming out that look very promising. I would want at least 125 lumen output, with a push-button tailcap. I run the Night Ops Falcata 9v currently, but I'm sure there are better options available.




    Sling

    I'd add a side sling swivel and run a Spec-Ops Mamba, as I have on almost all my rifles.

    Lower Options

    My favorite lower setup is a Hogue pistol grip w/ Gapper, and a Magpul CTR stock.



    The rifle would feed from Magpul P-Mags and would be loaded with Hornday TAP 75g OTM.



    This rifle would ride safely in an Assault Systems case, which has the added benefit of a zipper flap to keep the zipper from scratching up your new bang-stick.

    So- if anyone was wondering exactly which options I'd pick, or exactly how I'd set it up, now you know...
    Last edited by jwise; 06-08-2011 at 11:02 PM.
    J. Wise

    AR-15 - AK-47 - NFA Trusts - My Pick - Carry Guns - 1911s

    "Some say you can tell how the world stands by the prices of AK-47s...." Chit2001

    Any comments contained herein regarding the legality of firearms, or the application of law, are strictly applicable to Texas. If you live in CA, NY, IL, MA, D.C., etc., the above comments will probably shock you, and should be read for educational purposes only. Most likely nothing I write will apply to you.


  17. #667
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Hineline View Post
    16" barrels, are as short as they come untill they go shorter than they are registered under the NFA with the ATF. So these would be extra paperwork guns.
    If they're under 16" can't they be put on a lower registered as a pistol without NFA involvement?


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    Quote Originally Posted by zeplin View Post
    If they're under 16" can't they be put on a lower registered as a pistol without NFA involvement?
    Please don't forget the purpose of this thread. It is intended to help Police Officers choose a DUTY WEAPON. I would IN NO WAY recommend an officer to choose an AR pistol to carry on the job.

    (You are correct.)
    Carbonfiberfoot likes this.
    J. Wise

    AR-15 - AK-47 - NFA Trusts - My Pick - Carry Guns - 1911s

    "Some say you can tell how the world stands by the prices of AK-47s...." Chit2001

    Any comments contained herein regarding the legality of firearms, or the application of law, are strictly applicable to Texas. If you live in CA, NY, IL, MA, D.C., etc., the above comments will probably shock you, and should be read for educational purposes only. Most likely nothing I write will apply to you.


  19. #669
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    Placed the order for the lower, now the wait begins. This will give me time to see what else I may need or want to add to my AR.
    Last edited by OldSalt; 12-12-2008 at 04:30 PM.

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    The lower has been ordered, now the wait begins. This gices me time to see what I may want to add to my AR.

  21. #671
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldSalt View Post
    The lower has been ordered, now the wait begins. This gices me time to see what I may want to add to my AR.

    Old Salt,

    To give you an idea of the wait time from CMMG. The week of the election I ordered 2 stripped lowers and one complete lower. The Complete Lowers get priority. I got my completer lower within a week. Yesterday, I got the stripped lowers.
    Enjoy your build. It is so addicting.


    "Po Po coming through!" all rights reserved DJS



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    http://www.snipercompany.com/

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  22. #672
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    I shall indeed have a great time with the build.

  23. #673
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwise View Post
    CAR Handguards:

    CAR handguards were the original handguards sold on the early CAR-15 by Colt. Colt switched to the fatter, oval shaped handguards when they developed the M4, which is why the larger handguards are called "M4" handguards.

    Bushmaster still sells its rifles with heat-shielded CAR handguards. Here's a picture showing the M4 Patrolman's Carbine with CAR handguards:




    So- Your options are:

    1- Buy a set of CAR handguards for <$20, and mount everything where you want it as seen in the above picture.
    2- Buy a LaRue Tactical riser for $120 (or similar riser for ~$50 that may or may not work right) that will raise your optics up over your M4 handguards and put your iron sights in the lower 1/3rd of the viewfinder.
    3- Buy a railed forearm for $175 (Troy MRF-C) and stretch things out a bit.

    Your call...



    PS- I'm assuming your have a carbine, not a midlength or a rifle. If my assumption is wrong, this might change things.
    Don't have either yet, going for a midlength. But it seems the wait is going to kill me. \

    Would the CAR handguards with a small piece of rail on the bottom be just as sturdy as a full railed forearm? These choices are killing me!
    Last edited by phoenixdown; 12-13-2008 at 10:58 PM.

  24. #674
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    Quote Originally Posted by phoenixdown View Post
    Don't have either yet, going for a midlength. But it seems the wait is going to kill me. \

    Would the CAR handguards with a small piece of rail on the bottom be just as sturdy as a full railed forearm? These choices are killing me!
    With a Midlength, you won't have the option to go with the CAR handguards, as they don't exist for the middy. You'll have to go with one of the other options.

    No, a small piece of rail attached to the bottom will NOT be as secure.
    J. Wise

    AR-15 - AK-47 - NFA Trusts - My Pick - Carry Guns - 1911s

    "Some say you can tell how the world stands by the prices of AK-47s...." Chit2001

    Any comments contained herein regarding the legality of firearms, or the application of law, are strictly applicable to Texas. If you live in CA, NY, IL, MA, D.C., etc., the above comments will probably shock you, and should be read for educational purposes only. Most likely nothing I write will apply to you.


  25. #675
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwise View Post
    With a Midlength, you won't have the option to go with the CAR handguards, as they don't exist for the middy. You'll have to go with one of the other options.

    No, a small piece of rail attached to the bottom will NOT be as secure.
    Bustin' my balls here man, you're getting me into an expensive hobby.

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