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  1. #1
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    Rear Naked Choke

    A “Rear Naked Choke” or a “Guillotine Choke” is considered lethal force since it could cause brain damage if held too long. The word “choke” does infer deadly force.

    With that being said, should we call it something else like “triangular restraint hold” or some other creative name to side step the use of deadly force issue if we only intend to subdue the subject and not kill them? Some people for example, a drunk or a mentally disabled / disturbed person.

    Or should it only be used as a lethal force option?
    "The angle of the dangle is proportional to the heat of the meat." - Beavis

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    Here, no matter what it is called it will only be justified in lethal force situations.
    "My give a damn's busted"

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    L-1
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    We call it the Lateral Vascular Neck Restraint or LVNR. But, even with such a creative name, it's still pretty much regarded as deadly force.

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    the rear "naked" chokle is basically a modified BAR arm choke hold- banned for use by city of L.A.;hmmmm,But I don't even think they teach the upper body control holds any more here-instead of LVNR ,we called it the "full" and "modified"-still deadly force.Funny but we're talking a "New" generation that just wants to taser folks and maybe wait for add'l units then injure EACH OTHER trying the swarm technique( seen several instances ,particularly with my Dept) where the 1-5 yr crowd bump heads bruise arms and legs,even once two officers broke fingers,trying to swarm a combative suspect-none of them want to "hit" anyone with batons or body parts-even if authorized in the UOF continuum

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vtfuzz
    Here, no matter what it is called it will only be justified in lethal force situations.

    Here its called the carotid restraint. It's not considered lethal force for us. Works great.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Five-0fromSoCal
    Here its called the carotid restraint. It's not considered lethal force for us. Works great.
    Same here. Very effective and used regularly on aggressers who dont respond to other techniques. Nothing deadly about it. Cuts off blood supply to brain, not air.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Five-0fromSoCal
    Here its called the carotid restraint. It's not considered lethal force for us. Works great.
    AND

    FPD GUY-
    "Same here. Very effective and used regularly on aggressers who dont respond to other techniques. Nothing deadly about it. Cuts off blood supply to brain, not air."

    That's what I'm talking about!!!
    If only all states would consider that being non-lethal. I asked because I've seen a plethora of traffic stops that ends up someone fighting some drunk and not someone who really needs to actually meet God at that moment.

    And who knows if any of them carried a Tazer.

    Drug dealers, felons, etc. oh yeah, you're next in line to meet God.
    "The angle of the dangle is proportional to the heat of the meat." - Beavis

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    the "rear naked choke" is lethal force here ...but we have somethign called the shoulder pin restraint that cuts the blood flow off to the brain that isn't considered lethal force jsut hard empty hand control

    THE SHOULDER PIN taught is the
    Lateral Vascular neck restraint system,
    which offers officers an alternative to
    the use of deadly force. This is the only
    medically researched and approved neck
    restraint system in use today. This system
    has been adapted for ground fighting and
    is easily learned and retained.

    That was taken from the PPCT defensive tactics manual
    Last edited by imtherookie; 04-23-2007 at 08:02 PM.

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    I reckon, regardless of wether it's "lethal" or "non-lethal", if and/or when I do have to choke someone out I need to brace for the lawsutes. And get the PBA to cover my 6 from the department admin F'ers.
    "The angle of the dangle is proportional to the heat of the meat." - Beavis

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    I've heard it called neck restraint, neck crank, etc. Bottom line is in a fight I am gonna grab what I can to safely restrain the person. If it is his neck so be it. It simply another thing I can grab until I can access and reposition myself to handcuff him/her. In an altercation the officer doesn't know when the situation is going to be deadly force, so just act accordingly. I mean when I have had to throw someone to the ground and their pumpkin bounces off the ashphalt that too is realllllly deadly force. If I am not attacked then no I wouldn't just use it on someone for fun, but if a uniformed leo is attacked, just what do you think the person wants to do to you. When attacked, your fighting for your life. I mean the person has attacked a uniformed leo, knowing how we will respond and knowing they will go to jail. If you don't believe that to be a potential deadly force situation, then god help you.
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    DE-lete! Pardon the intrusion.
    Last edited by RR_Security; 04-23-2007 at 09:19 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Monster56
    AND

    FPD GUY-
    "Same here. Very effective and used regularly on aggressers who dont respond to other techniques. Nothing deadly about it. Cuts off blood supply to brain, not air."

    That's what I'm talking about!!!
    If only all states would consider that being non-lethal. I asked because I've seen a plethora of traffic stops that ends up someone fighting some drunk and not someone who really needs to actually meet God at that moment.

    And who knows if any of them carried a Tazer.

    Drug dealers, felons, etc. oh yeah, you're next in line to meet God.
    Yeah, my dept. is very proactive and gives you the tools to help you survive. It's nice compared to the Dept. I came from, which didn't give a shiat about it's officers. They back their officers 100%. There have been many instances where the caratoid or "rear naked choke" has been used and no discipline whatsoever.

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    TPM
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    Smile LVNR Web Site

    The LVNR program is taught all over the US and world.

    http://www.nletc.com/courses.php?course_id=1

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    Either One-on-One control tactics (Steve Jimmerfield's) LVNR or PPCT's Shoulder Pin, They are Hard Empty Hand Tech's. Trained on both, but I like the LVNR better. Less Lethal and Work GREAT!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Oh BTW, thank God for hard plastic back seats
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    Quote Originally Posted by FPD GUY
    Yeah, my dept. is very proactive and gives you the tools to help you survive. It's nice compared to the Dept. I came from, which didn't give a shiat about it's officers. They back their officers 100%. There have been many instances where the caratoid or "rear naked choke" has been used and no discipline whatsoever.

    Thats just it. Having a dept that will back you up 100% is priceless. It's good to learn about all the different techniques and names being used. Thanks to all, I can better articulate what I did (or would do) if it ever happened.
    "The angle of the dangle is proportional to the heat of the meat." - Beavis

  16. #16
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    like our instructor once told us "Never call it a choke, it is simply a compression technique" lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by Monster56 View Post
    A “Rear Naked Choke” or a “Guillotine Choke” is considered lethal force since it could cause brain damage if held too long. The word “choke” does infer deadly force.

    With that being said, should we call it something else like “triangular restraint hold” or some other creative name to side step the use of deadly force issue if we only intend to subdue the subject and not kill them? Some people for example, a drunk or a mentally disabled / disturbed person.

    Or should it only be used as a lethal force option?
    Upper-body compression lock, they call it here. If someone is fighting me, I'll do anything and weather the complaint.
    For those who want to argue religion, my views are in the sig. This avoids days of repetition and is convenient. Thanks and good luck in your quest.

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  18. #18
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    We call it the carotid restraint also. Its is in the lethal force category... but thats it.
    LAPD

  19. #19
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    Yeah the LVNR as it is referred to down here is not even taught any more and the use of it is highly discouraged.
    Last edited by TXDSX; 06-06-2007 at 09:01 PM.
    Conduct every traffic stop extending the olive branch of peace; while having a tactical plan to kill everyone inside the vehicle. - Gordon Graham

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    LVNR or Carotid Restraint have all but been eliminated from our vocabulary. If a force situation escalates to that level, the officer needs to clearly articulate what they did and why they did it. Using any specific terminology only sets up both officer and the agency for liability if it was a "banned or unauthorized" technique. Using the more familiar MMA terminology is a nightmare waiting to happen. Both the rear naked choke and the guillotine only creates the image of a mutant in a steel cage. Keeping our training professional often means keeping our terminology PC, but techniques will still be based on the totality of the circumstances.
    Jerry
    "If all else fails, stop using all else!"

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    "choke"

    At LASD (los angeles county sheriff's dept) we call it the carotid restraint and it isn't in the life threatening/ serious bodily injury category. We are allowed to use it against assaultive/ high risk suspects (YES!!).

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    unfortunately NYPD prohibits all "choke" holds no matter what
    MTS, 013

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    I used it at least a half dozen times when I worked in the jail; 3 times on patrol. It's absolutely amazing how fast an intoxicated person will go out.

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    considered on the same level as OC, baton, K9 or tazer around here. we train with it 2-3 times a year so we stay profictient in it. it shouldnt be anymore lethal than a tazer, most deaths related to it are caused by what the suspect has in his system than the force option. poor training doesnt help either. most admin people have that knee jerk reaction when there is a death or issue though

  25. #25
    knight elf mohawk
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    just to be clear, the rear naked choke and the Guillotine choke are two diferent techniques, the rear naked from the rear and the Guillotine is done from a sort of front headlock position. if you intend to use them they are great thechniques, but there are a few alternintives that can be aplyed from the same positions. if you are behind the guy, and in a position to aply the rear naked choke you could also get a arm around his neck and the other under his arm and control his upper body, or get two underhooks and go for a throw. there are actualy probably hundereds of options you could do from here, but they all take training.
    from the Guillotine position i have had better luck with a neck crank than the actual choke. that entails aplying the front headlock and instead of adjusting your arms for the choke (or as well as) you (make shure youve got him tight) sit down on your butt and put him in the guard position (your legs around his body) and pull his head up and his body down. bear in mind that any time your using a closed guard position like that think about where your weapon is. not to say you cant do that one when armed, but you just have to make shure you do it right. also from the Guillotine position you could sprawl, and move backwards forcing him forward and down on to his hands and knees and spin to get his back. train on that one a lot before you try it for real though. if you realy want to learn control techniques ive had great luck with brazilian jiujitsu.

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