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  1. #26
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    I was never an MP but was an 11B that re-classed to CID. We were authorized to carry concealed on and off post. Our credentials state it and our regulation allowed it. We were "discouraged" from getting involved in anything off-post, but if we were carrying and observed a serious crime in progress, we would have been "dealt" w/ if we failed to act. The jurisdiction of an MP is not necessarily "bound" to the confines of an installation. UCMJ provides jurisdiction over the servicemember regardless of his/her location. I know MPI investigators get their creds from the PMO and have to carry a separate "DA" form/card to carry concealed. I have investigated, put the bracelets on, and prosecuted civilians all the time. And when I say prosecute, I mean in a Federal Court and for serious felonies (multi-million dollar fraud, larcenies, robberies, sex crimes, etc.). Where there is an Army interest, we investigated, plain and simple, regardless of location. The only thing we couldn't do was arrest someone. All we had to do was provide the affidavit, get an arrest warrant, and a U.S. Marshal made the arrest and we did EVERYTHING else. Heck, we even prosecuted a few soldiers in Federal Court. CID narcotics teams consist mostly of MP's (nearly all undercovers are MP's), and conduct operations/raids off-post w/ local, state, and federal agencies ALL the time. I agree that some young MP's don't have a clue, and MP's do a lot of infantry operations, but I have met some damn fine ones out there. People have to understand the role of the military; our mission is to go to war and kill the enemy, everything else is second to that mission. CID is part of the "MP Corps," but we're not under the PMO, which can make a huge difference in what MP's are allowed to do. I also think that if you want to do only law enforcement, get out of the military, that's what I did. Some MP's stay in because they like "soldiering," and there is nothing wrong with that. I loved being a soldier and I loved being a CID Agent, but I wanted to do only LE. I just think it's comical about these discussions, especially those with attitudes towards MP's or DoD officers who may seem over zealous. The way I see it: There's an 18 year old MP in Iraq right now, who is losing sleep and kicking in doors for this country, whether he agrees with it or not. If anybody on here doesn't like it, pick up an M4 and GIT R DONE!!! Sounds like some people on here need to get the sand out of it. Any comments, feel free to PM.

  2. #27
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    [QUOTE=irishlad2nv]

    Jayt, I am still curious as to why you continue to ignore "Bearcats" questions?

    No, is the answer to your question. I would not just jam a MP or DOD officer up if they had the proper CCW. For some reason Irish, you seem to think that I just hate DOD police, not correct. What I don't like is someone doing something that is a felony. And in most states it is a felony to carry a concealed pistol without authority to do so. So would I do something about a felony, you bet I would. Police or no police. Would I arrest on scene, no, but like I said before I would seize the firearm, and I would at a minimum talk to the prosecutor and the DOD officer's boss. As I said before, I was an MP, and I respect MP's for what they do. But in my opinion, they are not police officers, and neither are DOD police. You guys just don't do the same job, your job is more about security, then real police work. Once again, my opinion, could care less if you agree or not. But I strongly suggest that you, or any other DOD cop or MP carry off duty unless you have a CCW.

  3. #28
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    This for jayt_1923= Personally, I was an Army MP for eight years. In that eight years, I was a bodyguard, worked undercover narcotics (DST), traffic, SRT and regular road patrol. I have received airborned training as well as air assault training. This is on top of the in service training I have received. I have been a civilian officer (deputy actually) for ten years now. I have found that my above mentioned backround totally smokes any training my civilian counterparts have had. Sure technically I may not have had "arrest" powers, but I still locked people up, military and civilian. I have also worked with incompetant people in the military, but let me tell you, the civilian side has plenty also. While being a member of a couple of SRT teams, we did ALOT of training with the civilian SWAT teams in the area I was stationed. The dangers are there just as much working the road on a military post as they are off post. While the general population of people we dealt with were decent, we had our share of the thugs from off post coming around and causing problems. I would rather take on a civilian in a fight than a soldier or marine who does PT five days a week. Have you ever chased someone like that? Try fighting someone like that all the time. So you need to get off your high horse about being a "real" police officer. As far as backround checks goes, my law enforcement backround check did not even come close to the scrutiny I got when I got my top secret security clearance or even the secret clearance that is required to be an MP. You say that you went to MP officer basic, well I hope that you dont let that ego get in the way of you showing your troops how to do things the right way. Respect is a two way street. I hope that if and when you get deployed, you will listen to the people with experience and take good care of your troops. Before I go, another thing you should know about the MP Corps is that alot of posts do send their MP's to differant academies as well as the same advanced training that "civilian" cops get to go to, including the FBI National Academy and the various courses taught by the DEA. I have not met very many "civilian" cops that can say that they have had the oppurtunity to attend any of these types of classes. I do appreciate your service to our country and I wish you good luck and God Speed in your career.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by ex401mp
    This for jayt_1923= Personally, I was an Army MP for eight years. In that eight years, I was a bodyguard, worked undercover narcotics (DST), traffic, SRT and regular road patrol. I have received airborned training as well as air assault training. This is on top of the in service training I have received. I have been a civilian officer (deputy actually) for ten years now. I have found that my above mentioned backround totally smokes any training my civilian counterparts have had. Sure technically I may not have had "arrest" powers, but I still locked people up, military and civilian. I have also worked with incompetant people in the military, but let me tell you, the civilian side has plenty also. While being a member of a couple of SRT teams, we did ALOT of training with the civilian SWAT teams in the area I was stationed. The dangers are there just as much working the road on a military post as they are off post. While the general population of people we dealt with were decent, we had our share of the thugs from off post coming around and causing problems. I would rather take on a civilian in a fight than a soldier or marine who does PT five days a week. Have you ever chased someone like that? Try fighting someone like that all the time. So you need to get off your high horse about being a "real" police officer. As far as backround checks goes, my law enforcement backround check did not even come close to the scrutiny I got when I got my top secret security clearance or even the secret clearance that is required to be an MP. You say that you went to MP officer basic, well I hope that you dont let that ego get in the way of you showing your troops how to do things the right way. Respect is a two way street. I hope that if and when you get deployed, you will listen to the people with experience and take good care of your troops. Before I go, another thing you should know about the MP Corps is that alot of posts do send their MP's to differant academies as well as the same advanced training that "civilian" cops get to go to, including the FBI National Academy and the various courses taught by the DEA. I have not met very many "civilian" cops that can say that they have had the oppurtunity to attend any of these types of classes. I do appreciate your service to our country and I wish you good luck and God Speed in your career.

    Ex401MP-Lets just set the record straight. My partner used my user ID to post the blog you are refering too. Listen man, I don't need to get off my high horse. I can have an opinion. I don't know you, or anything about you, but I don't agree with alot of your comments, but I won't tell you to get off a horse or not express your opinion. I fought for the right to have that opinion last time I checked. My military training was better for sodiering purposes, but my civilian Law Enforcement training was hands down better than the military. If you feel that your military LE training was better than your civilian, I feel sorry for your departments training standards, that is all I am going to say.

  5. #30
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    Mutual Respect Needed

    I'm sorry to see that this thread has deteriorated into a flame session. It started out as a claim that DoD civilian and military police have statutory powers of arrest (which they currently do not have under the law).

    This is not the fault of those officers and military personnel. It's just the way it is right now.

    NOBODY should dispute that DoD civilian and military police have their share of professionals who, in some cases, are trained and experienced at a higher level than their civilian police counterparts. (For instance, when I was on active MP duty, I instructed civilian police pre- and in-service training, and worked closely with officers from adjoining departments.) Yet, it is also true that there are some people in DoD civilian and military police who could never "cut it" as a municipal, county or state cop. Also, there is a lack of proper background and psychological screening, and proper LE training, in DoD, both civilian and military police.

    No, DoD civilian and military police DO NOT have statutory arrest powers, and must rely on Marshals or civilian DCIO special agents to make an ARREST. Nevertheless, ALL posted sentries, NCO's (grades E-4/above) and commissioned officers, and on-duty DoD civilian and military police, can 'apprehend' anyone subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice no matter where, and release them to their commander.

    And yes, there is a difference.

  6. #31
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    [QUOTE=jayt_1923]
    Quote Originally Posted by irishlad2nv

    Jayt, I am still curious as to why you continue to ignore "Bearcats" questions?

    No, is the answer to your question. I would not just jam a MP or DOD officer up if they had the proper CCW. For some reason Irish, you seem to think that I just hate DOD police, not correct. What I don't like is someone doing something that is a felony. And in most states it is a felony to carry a concealed pistol without authority to do so. So would I do something about a felony, you bet I would. Police or no police. Would I arrest on scene, no, but like I said before I would seize the firearm, and I would at a minimum talk to the prosecutor and the DOD officer's boss. As I said before, I was an MP, and I respect MP's for what they do. But in my opinion, they are not police officers, and neither are DOD police. You guys just don't do the same job, your job is more about security, then real police work. Once again, my opinion, could care less if you agree or not. But I strongly suggest that you, or any other DOD cop or MP carry off duty unless you have a CCW.
    I was, past tense, worked for the "DOD" Police, I however started as a civilian LEO as well at a Sheriff's office. Point blank, I received very good training from the Academy I went to a 6 month Academy, which is more then some state do (9weeks), to the Mixed-Basic at FLETC. I suggest that you do not go around "bashing" all "DOD" police, as some Bases are considered Top-Notch as far as their Training goes. Ft. Hood for example has a very good Civilian "DOD" Army Police, The Presidio at Monterey, Ca has is another example. Thing is with DOD police as the same goes for Local Police, Sheriff's agencies, is they are a mixed breed of individuals. The bases I worked had over 10,000 personnel stationed there, not including those who came on station daily to work. We handled everything from Domestics, to Armed Robberies, etc, and the same went for the local Sheriff I worked for.

    Did I enjoy my time as a "DOD" cop. Yes and no. The money was outstanding. Easy job, yes. I, however did not want to retire there, so I went up in the "govt" LE level. DOD police is not for everybody, and the same goes for Local LE. Not everyone wants to stay in local LE, as did I. Some like the "security" type work, such as NSA,FBI Police, etc. Some like Border Patrol, to CBP at the ports. Each agency of LE has their uniquness that some choose. I have met some LEO's that love working as a Campus Police Officer, some love working as a Transit Cop.

    Law Enforcement is what you as the individual makes of it.

    Times are changing with the Military and with these time/changes, they need the "DOD" police, which is why more and more people are leaving their jobs to work on a Base as a Police Officer. They are no different then you nor the guy who's been undercover for 6 months. Cops are cops.
    "An excuse is worse and more terrible than a lie, for an excuse is a lie guarded."

  7. #32
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    [QUOTE=irishlad2nv]
    Quote Originally Posted by jayt_1923

    I was, past tense, worked for the "DOD" Police, I however started as a civilian LEO as well at a Sheriff's office. Point blank, I received very good training from the Academy I went to a 6 month Academy, which is more then some state do (9weeks), to the Mixed-Basic at FLETC. I suggest that you do not go around "bashing" all "DOD" police, as some Bases are considered Top-Notch as far as their Training goes. Ft. Hood for example has a very good Civilian "DOD" Army Police, The Presidio at Monterey, Ca has is another example. Thing is with DOD police as the same goes for Local Police, Sheriff's agencies, is they are a mixed breed of individuals. The bases I worked had over 10,000 personnel stationed there, not including those who came on station daily to work. We handled everything from Domestics, to Armed Robberies, etc, and the same went for the local Sheriff I worked for.

    Did I enjoy my time as a "DOD" cop. Yes and no. The money was outstanding. Easy job, yes. I, however did not want to retire there, so I went up in the "govt" LE level. DOD police is not for everybody, and the same goes for Local LE. Not everyone wants to stay in local LE, as did I. Some like the "security" type work, such as NSA,FBI Police, etc. Some like Border Patrol, to CBP at the ports. Each agency of LE has their uniquness that some choose. I have met some LEO's that love working as a Campus Police Officer, some love working as a Transit Cop.

    Law Enforcement is what you as the individual makes of it.

    Times are changing with the Military and with these time/changes, they need the "DOD" police, which is why more and more people are leaving their jobs to work on a Base as a Police Officer. They are no different then you nor the guy who's been undercover for 6 months. Cops are cops.

    I agree with what you are saying about how some types of police work isn't for everybody. I worked as a VA police officer for a little over a year after I got out of the military. That was not for me at all. I also attended a federal academy in Little Rock, AR. So I too was an MP, then a Federal, and now have been civilian officer for a little over 4 years now. All I can go by is my experiences as an MP and federal officer. As I stated before in prior entries, I don't think less of MP's or DOD officers, or VA officers for that matter. I will say that I don't think the training is as good, and this is just my experience. I am sure there might be some locations where it is top notch. Once again just my personal experience. But the reason this whole thread was started, had nothing to do with training or level of training. It had to do with an individual saying he had arrest powers, and as far as I know MP's or DOD still do not have statutory arrest powers. I just don't think it is smart to break the law, when it is spelled out so clearly. Not to mention, it is a serious liability when someone carries a firearm that they are not authorized to carry. Hope this entry has cleared some things up for you. If not let me know.

  8. #33
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    I hate to say it but I have to agree with Jayt. I spent many years as an Air Force SP/SF. I remember while I was at one base we had a local district attorney from outside come in. He informed us that if he heard of any of us attempting to pull over a vehicle off base that we would be arrested and charged with impersonating a police officer. Air Force SF training when I went through was 10.5 weeks. Only about 2 of that was for LE. I have heard that it changes from year to year. When I got out of active duty I tried listing that as LE experience and was told many times that military police experience does not count towards trying to get a civilian LE job. Thats probably why I'm stuck in my crappy C.O. job. On another note though I do recall an incident when I was assigned to a base that we (SPs) had exclusive jurisdiction. We let civilian law enforcement on base as a courtesy to use our fitness facilities. To make a long story short a deputy came on base to use the gym and ended up trying to make an arrest on base. SP's were called to the location because the deputy called back to his dept requesting backup, which ended up calling our desk Sgt. Unfortunately for the Deputy, he was verbally abusive to the responding SP's when they were asking him what he was doing patrolling the installation. The scene got pretty ugly until that deputy's supervisor came out to the base and ended up apologizing, saying that the deputy was new and did not know what was going on. The next day the wing commander was notified of the incident, and local LE was not allowed on base any longer to use the facilities.

  9. #34
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    i hate to sound like an *** butt come on post and break the law and when you are sitting in the d cell in handcuffs and being charged with a crime you aint gonna argue if we arrested you or not. Now having said that off post is a different matter we get told that we have no jurisdiction off post but the surrounding county will have no problem helping us if someone runs off post so yeah..... let the debate continue
    on the job.....

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    Smile

    Quote Originally Posted by DH2002
    i hate to sound like an *** butt come on post and break the law and when you are sitting in the d cell in handcuffs and being charged with a crime you aint gonna argue if we arrested you or not. Now having said that off post is a different matter we get told that we have no jurisdiction off post but the surrounding county will have no problem helping us if someone runs off post so yeah..... let the debate continue
    Just a couple of questions for ya, since you brought it up. Do you fill out a booking sheet, and take fingerprints and a photo? (this is common practice when someone is arrested). Do you turn that civilian over to another police officer, or military member over to his command??? You have to realize that it may seem like an arrest to you, but it is a detention. If you actually arrested someone, they would have to be put in jail under your authority, or else bonded out pending a court date for their charges. You have the same authority every other NCO or CO has, which is the power to apprehend. Just 1 more question, Do you put in your report that you arrested or that you apprehended. I am betting that you put Apprehended. The reason for this is because you do not have ARREST authority, period. Sorry to burst your bubble, but a fact is a fact.

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    well actually depending on the crime we do fingerprint them and everthing else including get their lawyer and everything including miranda rights and all that so yeah we do and after they are charged and cited then released the military side takes over and they are released to their chain of command unless they are cilvilian then they are ROR.
    Last edited by DH2002; 04-13-2007 at 11:36 PM.
    on the job.....

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by jayt_1923
    Just a couple of questions for ya, since you brought it up. Do you fill out a booking sheet, and take fingerprints and a photo? (this is common practice when someone is arrested). Do you turn that civilian over to another police officer, or military member over to his command??? You have to realize that it may seem like an arrest to you, but it is a detention. If you actually arrested someone, they would have to be put in jail under your authority, or else bonded out pending a court date for their charges. You have the same authority every other NCO or CO has, which is the power to apprehend. Just 1 more question, Do you put in your report that you arrested or that you apprehended. I am betting that you put Apprehended. The reason for this is because you do not have ARREST authority, period. Sorry to burst your bubble, but a fact is a fact.
    Wrong. The booking sheet that Army MPs are required to complete is DA Form 3975 (an arrest report). You might note section 9F (criminal resisted arrest). http://www.army.mil/usapa/eforms/pdf/A3975A.PDF

    Please quit acting like you have a bigger d**k than the military.

  13. #38
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    Main Entry: ap·pre·hen·sion
    Pronunciation: "a-pri-'hen(t)-sh&n
    Function: noun
    Etymology: Middle English, from Late Latin apprehension-, apprehensio, from Latin apprehendere
    1 a : the act or power of perceiving or comprehending <a person of dull apprehension> b : the result of apprehending mentally : CONCEPTION <according to popular apprehension>
    2 : seizure by legal process : ARREST <apprehension of a criminal>
    3 : suspicion or fear especially of future evil : FOREBODING <an atmosphere of nervous apprehension>


    Main Entry: 1ar·rest
    Pronunciation: &-'rest
    Function: transitive verb
    Etymology: Middle English aresten, from Anglo-French arester to stop, arrest, from Vulgar Latin *arrestare, from Latin ad- + restare to remain -- more at REST
    1 a : to bring to a stop <sickness arrested his activities> b : CHECK, SLOW c : to make inactive <an arrested tumor>
    2 : SEIZE, CAPTURE; specifically : to take or keep in custody by authority of law
    3 : to catch suddenly and engagingly <arrest attention>


    Hmmmmm.........

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by equinox137
    Wrong. The booking sheet that Army MPs are required to complete is DA Form 3975 (an arrest report). You might note section 9F (criminal resisted arrest). http://www.army.mil/usapa/eforms/pdf/A3975A.PDF

    Please quit acting like you have a bigger d**k than the military.

    Hmmmmmmmmmm.............Last I knew a 3975 was a military police report, not an arrest report, but maybe that has changed since I got out of the army in 2000. I am not acting like I have a bigger anything there stud. You are the one that seems to have a pretty fragile ego, because anytime your authority is questioned you get really defensive.

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    [QUOTE=Bearcat357]Main Entry: ap·pre·hen·sion
    Pronunciation: "a-pri-'hen(t)-sh&n
    Function: noun
    Etymology: Middle English, from Late Latin apprehension-, apprehensio, from Latin apprehendere
    1 a : the act or power of perceiving or comprehending <a person of dull apprehension> b : the result of apprehending mentally : CONCEPTION <according to popular apprehension>
    2 : seizure by legal process : ARREST <apprehension of a criminal>
    3 : suspicion or fear especially of future evil : FOREBODING <an atmosphere of nervous apprehension>


    Main Entry: 1ar·rest
    Pronunciation: &-'rest
    Function: transitive verb

    You going to answer my questions, or just give a definition. My question was, do MP's lodge a suspect on authority (felony) or do they give them bond for a non lodgible midemeanor. You see, and arrest is a powerful thing. When you arrest someone you can't just let them go without some type of disposition. When I was an MP we released civilians on appearence tickets for minor stuff, but if we had something big, we had no power or authority to lodge them. Instead of just acting like a smart *** bearcat, why don't you answer the question???? I am acting civil, but you just want to try and get into a ****ing contest. Please answer the ????

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    Quote Originally Posted by jayt_1923
    Instead of just acting like a smart *** bearcat, why don't you answer the question???? I am acting civil, but you just want to try and get into a ****ing contest. Please answer the ????
    All I did was post the defination of arrest and apprehension (which look damn simular to me) because you were trying to a point that they were two different things (by looking at the definations they are not) and you call me a name...... So much as for you acting civil........

    Perhaps this is your buddy speaking and not you now.....?

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by jayt_1923
    Hmmmmmmmmmm.............Last I knew a 3975 was a military police report, not an arrest report, but maybe that has changed since I got out of the army in 2000. I am not acting like I have a bigger anything there stud. You are the one that seems to have a pretty fragile ego, because anytime your authority is questioned you get really defensive.
    Glad you read the title of the report. Now, by reading the content, its obviously what goes on the daily blotter.

  18. #43
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    Difference between Apprehension and Arrest

    The difference between a "military apprehension" and a "statutory arrest" has been discussed extensively in policemag.com/forum.

    I agree that an individual sitting in a "detention cell" doesn't care whether he has been "detained" or "arrested."

    Nevertheless, there is a difference under military law: an apprehended "detainee" is either released to his unit rep or on his own recognizance after paperwork processing. An arrested person is booked, printed, photographed, then brought before a magistrate, bonded, and put in jail.

    Wanna talk about the term "arrest?" A Joe Blow citizen can make a "citizen's arrest" in most states. That doesn't mean that every Joe Blow citizen has "statutory powers of arrest" for the purpose of the Law Enforcement Officer Safety Act (LEOSA), even if they have a police credential with their picture on it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bearcat357
    All I did was post the defination of arrest and apprehension (which look damn simular to me) because you were trying to a point that they were two different things (by looking at the definations they are not) and you call me a name...... So much as for you acting civil........

    Perhaps this is your buddy speaking and not you now.....?

    Once again, you didn't answer the question?? Are you sure you are not a politician, because you keep dodging the question. Maybe you should change your screen name to John Kerry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by equinox137
    Glad you read the title of the report. Now, by reading the content, its obviously what goes on the daily blotter.
    What do you do when you arrest/apprehend someone as an MP?? Take me through the steps that you go through please. When I was an MP from 1994-2000 we either released military to their chain of command or we released civilians on an appearance date. No bond was set, the individuals were not lodged, if we needed them lodged we had to call a state trooper, and the trooper lodged on his authority. I am just curious as to how much it has changed, because according to your posts you arrest people and fill out arrest reports as an MP. Do you take them in front of a federal Magistate after you arrest them?? Because you can't just release someone after they have been arrested, as I have said before. There has to be some kind of disposition. If I am wrong please correct me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jayt_1923
    Once again, you didn't answer the question?? Are you sure you are not a politician, because you keep dodging the question. Maybe you should change your screen name to John Kerry.
    Nice to see you can't stick to things and have to call me names......

    As for the question..... I know plenty of agencies that don't do full booking processes for misdemeanor offenses. All three of my prior agencies would usually release the suspect on a Missouri Uniformed Summons with a court date......does that make them lessor of an agency that yours up in MI...? I think not...

  22. #47
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    Fed vs State

    Interesting conversation coming from the local beat cops. Fortunately our department has a good relationship with the county. We crosstrain ensuring that our skill sets and comms are compatible. I am a San Jose Model FTO for our department and train fed, state, and local departments. I really see no difference in the training of local and federal except:

    - Federal officers are required to know US Code, UCMJ, State Law, and instructions (SOP's) pertaining to the department.
    - Federal officers are required to maintain a certain level of fitness with semi-annual physical readiness tests.

    As far as action goes I agree DOD sees less but we deal with experienced fighters generally back from war unlike local pd that humps calls for 'Street Fighters' generally intoxicated. I talk from experience on that because I spent some time with the sheriff's office and can clearly see the difference in perps. Another fact is DOD has separated from force protection. That is all contracted or military now. DOD is exclusively LE with no additional duties like gates. The fact of the matter is we all have jurisdiction limitations. You can only play in your backyard regardless if your local pd or fed. Let's look at a couple other differences:

    Pay: Average DOD starts at $36K plus nice bennies/ Average local pd starts at $26K with a mound of overtime to try to make up the difference in pay.

    Clients: DOD usually deals with trained fighters free of disease (in most cases). Local PD deals with inexperienced fighters with a host of transmittable diseases which they generally like to share with LE.

    Upward Mobility: 3 years to SGT in DOD, 5 yrs to SGT in local pd/ 6 yrs to LT in DOD and 10+ yrs to LT in local. Pay difference (You do not want to know) but if you are interested you can go to the dod special pay rates as every region I am aware of gets OPM base + Locality + 26% of base pay to retain quality officers.

    Opportunity: Local PD can cross between varied departments as you increase in rank such as invest, major crimes, narcs, etc. DOD enjoy the benefit of crossing into any of the 50+ federal agencies with a simple transfer package and a little cross-training (This includes the US and overseas). Local PD requires a new academy for each state transfer if it is not reciprocal (what a waste, same training).

    Training: Local PD can apply to schools based on department needs and manpower. DOD has the choice of all local schools plus all the federal schools and all employees are encouraged to continuously train. The department has paid over $210k for the instructor certs I retain and surprising enough over half are state certs that I use to train local and state pd. That would usually send your local department into bankruptcy.

    Before you bash the fed check the facts. Law enforcement is the same across this whole nation. The only thing that changes is terms and comm codes. Basically law enforcement is not rocket science. Anyone can be a cop with a halfway decent record and a desire to impact the community. I would like for someone to address this great disperity in training between the fed and local. The fed does every single bit of training the locals do except we have added training that deals in the area of terrorism and advanced defensive tactics to deal with trained soldiers. We have the same basic certs as local, not to mention the same systems. In my state it is FCIC, NCIC, and DAVIDS.

    Getting to the arrest thing.....I use the same S&W hinge cuffs as my local couterpart and the slip around the wrists the same. As far as off duty arrests....well I am limited just like the locals. If it is in my backyard (jurisdiction) then it does not matter but I am discouraged from playing in the locals backyard unless it is a felony. Packing off duty, you better believe it. As many as I have sent to federal prison I can not afford not to. For those locals (which I know are not from my neighborhood) who would like to jam the DOD just think about the safety of your fellow officer for a couple of moments. You really want me naked facing a perp that lost 10 for a key. I would not wish that on any LE officer regardless of who they are. Our department is a little more fortunate than others because we are given the opportunity to take the 2 week high liability course at our departments expense to maintain our state standards with our fed standards. A kind of dual role giving us a little more flexibility when playing in our counterparts backyard. Of course we offered concurrent jurisdiction to make sure we both extended our boundaries.

    I had to add my 10 cent because this is disturbing knowing there is red among the blue.

  23. #48
    One Night In Bangkok
    orlandofed5-0's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fedlaw35
    Interesting conversation coming from the local beat cops. Fortunately our department has a good relationship with the county. We crosstrain ensuring that our skill sets and comms are compatible. I am a San Jose Model FTO for our department and train fed, state, and local departments. I really see no difference in the training of local and federal except:

    - Federal officers are required to know US Code, UCMJ, State Law, and instructions (SOP's) pertaining to the department.
    - Federal officers are required to maintain a certain level of fitness with semi-annual physical readiness tests.

    Fitness test? DoD? Id like to know which base this is? NAS Pensecola region which lost its PT program when AFGE and NAGE challenged it.

    NAS Jax and Mayport? No PT test up there either.

    Requirements to know what? Very few bases use the 1805 program. I think the base in Milton, Eglin AFB and a few others use it however most use toilet paper err 1408's and keep everything in house.

    As far as action goes I agree DOD sees less but we deal with experienced fighters generally back from war unlike local pd that humps calls for 'Street Fighters' generally intoxicated. I talk from experience on that because I spent some time with the sheriff's office and can clearly see the difference in perps. Another fact is DOD has separated from force protection. That is all contracted or military now. DOD is exclusively LE with no additional duties like gates. The fact of the matter is we all have jurisdiction limitations. You can only play in your backyard regardless if your local pd or fed. Let's look at a couple other differences:
    DoD has not seperated from force protection especially in both the Navy and AF sides. DoD cops in FL are still standing gates along side their military counterparts. Take a look at NAS JAX and almost all the bases in the Pensacola region. You will see DoD civilian police officers and GS 0085 security guards standing gates.

    Pay: Average DOD starts at $36K plus nice bennies/ Average local pd starts at $26K with a mound of overtime to try to make up the difference in pay.
    DoD outside of Miami and maybe even Jax start at 35k. Most officers start at 30k with locality. Very few officers are getting OT due to the mismangement of DoD.

    Clients: DOD usually deals with trained fighters free of disease (in most cases). Local PD deals with inexperienced fighters with a host of transmittable diseases which they generally like to share with LE.
    Huh? As a former DoD officer, I dealt with more civilians than military. The worse ones are the civilians who are retired military and wo are know it alls and put into mangement positions.


    Upward Mobility: 3 years to SGT in DOD, 5 yrs to SGT in local pd/ 6 yrs to LT in DOD and 10+ yrs to LT in local. Pay difference (You do not want to know) but if you are interested you can go to the dod special pay rates as every region I am aware of gets OPM base + Locality + 26% of base pay to retain quality officers.
    Yeah with a good pair of knee pads from Lowes. Promotions dont happen like you mention. Not every one gets the special pay rates.

    Opportunity: Local PD can cross between varied departments as you increase in rank such as invest, major crimes, narcs, etc. DOD enjoy the benefit of crossing into any of the 50+ federal agencies with a simple transfer package and a little cross-training (This includes the US and overseas). Local PD requires a new academy for each state transfer if it is not reciprocal (what a waste, same training).
    You can not transfer in the government as you mentioned. You need to apply the same as everyone else the only good part is that you can get in through certain openings that are open to fed employees. Guess what.. Wanna go local from the feds.. you need to go back through the academy

    [quote]Training: Local PD can apply to schools based on department needs and manpower. DOD has the choice of all local schools plus all the federal schools and all employees are encouraged to continuously train. The department has paid over $210k for the instructor certs I retain and surprising enough over half are state certs that I use to train local and state pd. That would usually send your local department into bankruptcy.['quote]

    BS...DoD may send you to schools. You may get certs but guess what.. The department can pull a training budget if its needed for operational needs and that happens alot.

    Before you bash the fed check the facts. Law enforcement is the same across this whole nation. The only thing that changes is terms and comm codes. Basically law enforcement is not rocket science. Anyone can be a cop with a halfway decent record and a desire to impact the community. I would like for someone to address this great disperity in training between the fed and local. The fed does every single bit of training the locals do except we have added training that deals in the area of terrorism and advanced defensive tactics to deal with trained soldiers. We have the same basic certs as local, not to mention the same systems. In my state it is FCIC, NCIC, and DAVIDS.
    Have you ever been to Glynco? They do not train as long in alot of areas that stae academies teach. Patrol procedures? Maybe 3-4 classes


    Getting to the arrest thing.....I use the same S&W hinge cuffs as my local couterpart and the slip around the wrists the same. As far as off duty arrests....well I am limited just like the locals. If it is in my backyard (jurisdiction) then it does not matter but I am discouraged from playing in the locals backyard unless it is a felony. Packing off duty, you better believe it. As many as I have sent to federal prison I can not afford not to. For those locals (which I know are not from my neighborhood) who would like to jam the DOD just think about the safety of your fellow officer for a couple of moments. You really want me naked facing a perp that lost 10 for a key. I would not wish that on any LE officer regardless of who they are. Our department is a little more fortunate than others because we are given the opportunity to take the 2 week high liability course at our departments expense to maintain our state standards with our fed standards. A kind of dual role giving us a little more flexibility when playing in our counterparts backyard. Of course we offered concurrent jurisdiction to make sure we both extended our boundaries.

    I had to add my 10 cent because this is disturbing knowing there is red among the blue
    I don't work - I merely inflict myself upon the public.

  24. #49
    LEO
    Woofdog's Avatar
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    DoD Packing Off Duty

    If I were still DoD LE, I'd also be packing off duty.

    But I'd be damn sure I had a state CCW permit to do it legally, because DoD police and MP's are not covered under LEOSA, and it's against the law for them to carry solely on their ID cards.

    If you ever have to defend yourself off duty, even if the shoot is otherwise righteous, they will rake you over the coals both criminally and civilly, as well as by your employer, if they find out you're packing outside the law and DoD regulations.

    It's already been discussed at the puzzle palace.

  25. #50
    Hustler
    irishlad2nv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woofdog
    If I were still DoD LE, I'd also be packing off duty.

    But I'd be damn sure I had a state CCW permit to do it legally, because DoD police and MP's are not covered under LEOSA, and it's against the law for them to carry solely on their ID cards.

    If you ever have to defend yourself off duty, even if the shoot is otherwise righteous, they will rake you over the coals both criminally and civilly, as well as by your employer, if they find out you're packing outside the law and DoD regulations.

    It's already been discussed at the puzzle palace.
    And very soon, "DOD" will be covered under HR218 (LESOA)...very soon. So then there will be no more of these "silly" threads. MP's, well that's another story.
    "An excuse is worse and more terrible than a lie, for an excuse is a lie guarded."

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