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  1. #1
    Forum Member TulsaFiveO's Avatar
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    Question Is it ok to go 5mph over the speed limit?

    I was just curious, cause most people are usually going 5mph or more over the speed limit and I see officers never stopping them? Do most departments let that slide? I've lived in MN, WI, and now OK and have the similarities between departments

  2. #2
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    In Texas, obviously anything over the posted speed limit is a violation of the law and subject to a citation. I usually don't write until it's over 8mph over. (unless it's a school zone)

    I'll still make the PC stop since I'm a drug hound

  3. #3
    OTJ for awhile now. Sgt. Geezer's Avatar
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    Common sense dictates that 5 MPH over is within equipment margin of error. Most speedometers are ± 2 MPH accurate. That being said if you were driving 35 in a 30 zone through the busy heart of a small Main Street in any Village USA..... You very well may get stopped just because it is fast for the area you are in. Prudence counts.
    Speed limits are just that ....... the maximum you are to be going. It is not suppose to be a subjective law.
    35 in a 30 IS a violation.... although most officers do not write that low.

  4. #4
    Forum Member BSO6531's Avatar
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    In Florida anyways up to 5mph over is subject to a warning. Anything over your fair game....but I don't know many who pull over for 5mph over anyways.
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  5. #5
    Barefoot Ninja SRT936's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TulsaFiveO
    Is it ok to go 5mph over the speed limit?
    Nope. Next question.
    Quote Originally Posted by kontemplerande View Post
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    Strong is what's left when you've used up all your weak.

  6. #6
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    If im on a two lane road, and your going 35 in a 30, im hoping you speed up so I can get where im going faster. Especially if im going on a call. I usually dont stop a car unless they are going 15 over the limit. We are generous.

  7. #7
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    It depends on the situation. If I'm sitting on the side of the road running radar, I'll let it slide because I don't have time to stop everyone that's going five over. If I'm driving on the interstate or highway at the speed limit and you pass me at five over, you can bet on getting some tickets.

  8. #8
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    Nope, its illegal to go 1 mph over. However if i stopped everyone who went 5-10 mph over the limit I would be busy writing them tickets and would miss the ones going 15+ over.

  9. #9
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    Most of time I would allow 15 MPH over in less the situation dictated differently
    DON'T TAKE ANY CALL FOR GRANTED IT WILL GET YOU KILLED

  10. #10
    Forum Member beavo451's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mickmack111
    In Texas, obviously anything over the posted speed limit is a violation of the law and subject to a citation. I usually don't write until it's over 8mph over. (unless it's a school zone)

    I'll still make the PC stop since I'm a drug hound
    Quote Originally Posted by Northtechsan
    Nope, its illegal to go 1 mph over. However if i stopped everyone who went 5-10 mph over the limit I would be busy writing them tickets and would miss the ones going 15+ over.
    Sorry, I am not a sworn officer yet, but I just finished Traffic Law in the academy this week, and I have to disagree.

    Texas does not have an absolute speed limit law (Oklahoma does). If you are going at a reasonable and prudent speed, you are not speeding. The speed limits are prima facie limits. It means that the posted speed limit is what, at first glance, deemed reasonable. But, it is not a hard a fast rule as to how fast you are going. You can be written for going one over, but it can be contested in court (and probably win). If it is a straight, flat stretch of road in the middle of nowhere, good visibility, and nobody else on the road, you probably can articulate in court that going 5, 10, 15, or maybe even 20 over is driving at a reasonable and prudent speed.

    Transportation Code

    545.351. MAXIMUM SPEED REQUIREMENT. (a) An operator
    may not drive at a speed greater than is reasonable and prudent
    under the circumstances then existing.
    (b) An operator:
    (1) may not drive a vehicle at a speed greater than is
    reasonable and prudent under the conditions and having regard for
    actual and potential hazards then existing; and
    (2) shall control the speed of the vehicle as
    necessary to avoid colliding with another person or vehicle that is
    on or entering the highway in compliance with law and the duty of
    each person to use due care.
    (c) An operator shall, consistent with Subsections (a) and
    (b), drive at an appropriate reduced speed if:
    (1) the operator is approaching and crossing an
    intersection or railroad grade crossing;
    (2) the operator is approaching and going around a
    curve;
    (3) the operator is approaching a hill crest;
    (4) the operator is traveling on a narrow or winding
    roadway; and
    (5) a special hazard exists with regard to traffic,
    including pedestrians, or weather or highway conditions.

    545.352. PRIMA FACIE SPEED LIMITS. (a) A speed in
    excess of the limits established by Subsection (b) or under another
    provision of this subchapter is prima facie evidence that the speed
    is not reasonable and prudent and that the speed is unlawful.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by beavo451
    Sorry, I am not a sworn officer yet, but I just finished Traffic Law in the academy this week, and I have to disagree.

    Texas does not have an absolute speed limit law (Oklahoma does). If you are going at a reasonable and prudent speed, you are not speeding. The speed limits are prima facie limits. It means that the posted speed limit is what, at first glance, deemed reasonable. But, it is not a hard a fast rule as to how fast you are going. You can be written for going one over, but it can be contested in court (and probably win). If it is a straight, flat stretch of road in the middle of nowhere, good visibility, and nobody else on the road, you probably can articulate in court that going 5, 10, 15, or maybe even 20 over is driving at a reasonable and prudent speed.

    Transportation Code

    545.351. MAXIMUM SPEED REQUIREMENT. (a) An operator
    may not drive at a speed greater than is reasonable and prudent
    under the circumstances then existing.
    (b) An operator:
    (1) may not drive a vehicle at a speed greater than is
    reasonable and prudent under the conditions and having regard for
    actual and potential hazards then existing; and
    (2) shall control the speed of the vehicle as
    necessary to avoid colliding with another person or vehicle that is
    on or entering the highway in compliance with law and the duty of
    each person to use due care.
    (c) An operator shall, consistent with Subsections (a) and
    (b), drive at an appropriate reduced speed if:
    (1) the operator is approaching and crossing an
    intersection or railroad grade crossing;
    (2) the operator is approaching and going around a
    curve;
    (3) the operator is approaching a hill crest;
    (4) the operator is traveling on a narrow or winding
    roadway; and
    (5) a special hazard exists with regard to traffic,
    including pedestrians, or weather or highway conditions.

    545.352. PRIMA FACIE SPEED LIMITS. (a) A speed in
    excess of the limits established by Subsection (b) or under another
    provision of this subchapter is prima facie evidence that the speed
    is not reasonable and prudent and that the speed is unlawful.
    Beavo, it would appear that the section you quoted (545.352) means that going above the posted speed limit, in and of itself, is evidence that your speed is not reasonable and prudent, therefore, it is unlawful. Perhaps you misunderstood at the academy.
    Last edited by jeffIL; 02-24-2007 at 01:35 PM.
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  12. #12
    Forum Member ace789nj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwm1981
    If im on a two lane road, and your going 35 in a 30, im hoping you speed up so I can get where im going faster. Especially if im going on a call. I usually dont stop a car unless they are going 15 over the limit. We are generous.

    Right here with ya
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  13. #13
    Retired Sergeant - CHP SgtCHP's Avatar
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    beavo451 posted:

    "...Texas does not have an absolute speed limit law (Oklahoma does). If you are going at a reasonable and prudent speed, you are not speeding. The speed limits are prima facie limits. It means that the posted speed limit is what, at first glance, deemed reasonable. But, it is not a hard a fast rule as to how fast you are going. You can be written for going one over, but it can be contested in court (and probably win). If it is a straight, flat stretch of road in the middle of nowhere, good visibility, and nobody else on the road, you probably can articulate in court that going 5, 10, 15, or maybe even 20 over is driving at a reasonable and prudent speed..."


    WRONG!!! WRONG!!!

    Texas speed allowances according to Wikipedia:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_l...d_States#Texas

    All states' traffic and speed laws chart:

    http://www.mit.edu/~jfc/laws.html

    Article on Texas maximum speed limit law:

    http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/04/473.asp
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  14. #14
    Corporal redbird07's Avatar
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    Obviously travelling 1+ or more over the speed limit is fair game to receive a ticket. I have never written a citation for under 10 mph over. I usually dont start writing until you break the 15 mph over barrier.

  15. #15
    Forum Member beavo451's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffIL
    Beavo, it would appear that the section you quoted (545.352) means that going above the posted speed limit, in and of itself, is evidence that your speed is not reasonable and prudent, therefore, it is unlawful. Perhaps you misunderstood at the academy.
    I did not misunderstand. Perhaps my instructor was wrong. He flat out told us that driving faster than the speed limit is not illegal.

    Quote Originally Posted by beavo451
    545.352. PRIMA FACIE SPEED LIMITS. (a) A speed in
    excess of the limits established by Subsection (b) or under another
    provision of this subchapter is prima facie evidence that the speed
    is not reasonable and prudent and that the speed is unlawful.
    "At first glance" the speed was not reasonable or prudent. I think this would imply that there needs to be further investigation.

    You are going 35 in a 30. According to the second section, you are wrong. But, there is nobody on the road and it is in the middle of nowhere. You prove to the court that your speed of 35 was reasonable and prudent (not illegal under the first section). Court rules not guilty. So were you speeding?
    Last edited by beavo451; 02-24-2007 at 10:33 PM.

  16. #16
    Forum Member Fuzz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TulsaFiveO
    I was just curious, cause most people are usually going 5mph or more over the speed limit and I see officers never stopping them? Do most departments let that slide? I've lived in MN, WI, and now OK and have the similarities between departments

    Here in CA it depends on the speed, type of vehicle you are driving, etc. A regular vehicle can not legally driver over 65mph (70mph on limited posted freeways) and even 1 mph over is technically illegal. Vehicles or trucks with trailers maximum speed is 55mph and technically 1 mph over is illegal. There are some other laws regarding speed but if your talking about going 35mph on a posted 30mph street then it would depend on the conditions present. Day time with no pedestrians present, light traffic, sunny dry roads then probably not a problem. Same street in the pouring rain, lots of kids running around, rush hour/congested traffic then maybe not....each situation depends on how safe it would be to drive on that street at that particular time. Stick to the posted signs and you wont have a problem though

  17. #17
    Go on, touch it... JSD73's Avatar
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    NOt trying to be a smart *** bud, but you won't win that battle in court. The burden is on the driver and as far as most courts go, you were either speeding or you weren't.

    For your question...the court find you not guilty, okay but guess what. In Texas you're driving record will still show you were issued the citation for speeding, conviction or not.

    You want to talk to someone about the speed limits...talk to a DPS Trooper, you'll get a pretty good answer.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by beavo451
    Sorry, I am not a sworn officer yet, but I just finished Traffic Law in the academy this week, and I have to disagree.

    Texas does not have an absolute speed limit law
    I graduated from the academy a few years ago were I studied the Texas traffic code, passed the TCLESOE test, and have been a working as a sworn law enforcement officer since then and have been successful in proving my traffic citations in court.

    If you have studied the rest of the traffic code you would be aware of the following traffic statues that delegate the regulation of speed to subordinate government authorities.

    § 545.353. AUTHORITY OF TEXAS TRANSPORTATION COMMISSION
    TO ALTER SPEED LIMITS.

    (a) If the Texas Transportation Commission determines from the results of an engineering and traffic investigation that a prima facie speed limit in this subchapter is unreasonable or unsafe on a part of the highway system, the
    commission, by order recorded in its minutes, and except as
    provided in Subsection (d), may determine and declare:
    (1) a reasonable and safe prima facie speed limit; and
    (2) another reasonable and safe speed because of wet
    or inclement weather.
    (b) In determining whether a prima facie speed limit on a part of the highway system is reasonable and safe, the commission shall consider the width and condition of the pavement, the usual traffic at the affected area, and other circumstances.
    (c) A prima facie speed limit that is declared by the commission under this section is effective when the commission erects signs giving notice of the new limit. A new limit that is enacted for a highway under this section is effective at all times or at other times as determined.
    (d) Except as provided by Subsection (h), the commission may
    not:
    (1) modify the rules established by Section
    545.351(b);
    (2) establish a speed limit of more than 70 miles per
    hour; or
    (3) increase the speed limit for a vehicle described
    by Section 545.352(b)(5).
    (e) The commission, in conducting the engineering and
    traffic investigation specified by Subsection (a), shall follow the
    "Procedure for Establishing Speed Zones" as adopted by the
    commission. The commission may revise the procedure to accommodate
    technological advancement in traffic operation, the design and
    construction of highways and motor vehicles, and the safety of the
    motoring public.
    (f) The commission's authority to alter speed limits
    applies:
    (1) to any part of a highway officially designated or
    marked by the commission as part of the state highway system; and
    (2) both inside and outside the limits of a
    municipality, including a home-rule municipality, for a
    limited-access or controlled-access highway.
    (g) For purposes of this section, "wet or inclement weather"
    means a condition of the roadway that makes driving on the roadway
    unsafe and hazardous and that is caused by precipitation, including
    water, ice, and snow.
    (h) Notwithstanding Section 454.352(b), the commission may
    establish a speed limit of 75 miles per hour in daytime on a part of
    the highway system if:
    (1) the commission determines that 75 miles per hour
    in daytime is a reasonable and safe speed for that part of the
    highway system; and
    (2) that part of the highway is located in a county
    with a population density of less than 15 persons per square mile.
    (h-1) Notwithstanding Section 545.352(b), the commission
    may establish a speed limit of 80 miles per hour in daytime on a part
    of Interstate Highway 10 or Interstate Highway 20 in Crockett,
    Culberson, Hudspeth, Jeff Davis, Kerr, Kimble, Pecos, Reeves,
    Sutton, or Ward County if the commission determines that 80 miles
    per hour in daytime is a reasonable and safe speed for that part of
    the highway.
    (i) The speed limits authorized by Subsections (h) and (h-1)
    do not apply to:
    (1) trucks, other than light trucks and light trucks
    pulling a trailer; and
    (2) truck tractors, trailers, and semitrailers.
    (j) The commission may not determine or declare, or agree to
    determine or declare, a prima facie speed limit for environmental
    purposes on a part of the highway system.
    § 545.3531. AUTHORITY OF TEXAS TRANSPORTATION COMMISSION
    TO ESTABLISH SPEED LIMITS ON TRANS-TEXAS CORRIDOR.
    (a)
    Notwithstanding Section 545.352, the Texas Transportation
    Commission, by order recorded in its minutes and except as provided
    by Subsection (d), may determine and declare on a highway segment of
    the Trans-Texas Corridor designated under Chapter 227 a reasonable
    and safe prima facie speed limit in excess of a prima facie speed
    limit established by Section 545.352.
    (b) In determining whether a prima facie speed limit is
    reasonable and safe, the commission shall conduct an engineering
    and traffic investigation and shall consider the width and
    condition of the pavement, the usual traffic on the highway
    segment, the suitability of existing safety features, and other
    circumstances.
    (c) A prima facie speed limit that is declared by the
    commission under this section is effective when the department
    erects signs giving notice of the new limit. A new limit that is
    enacted under this section is effective at all times or at other
    times as determined.
    (d) The commission may not:
    (1) modify the rules established by Section
    545.351(b); or
    (2) establish a speed limit of more than 85 miles per
    hour.
    (e) The commission, in conducting the engineering and
    traffic investigation specified by Subsection (b), shall follow the
    "Procedures for Establishing Speed Zones" as adopted by the
    commission.
    § 545.3535. AUTHORITY OF TEXAS TRANSPORTATION COMMISSION
    TO ALTER SPEED LIMITS ON CERTAIN ROADS.
    (a) The commissioners
    court of a county by resolution may request the Texas
    Transportation Commission to determine and declare a reasonable and
    safe prima facie speed limit that is lower than a speed limit
    established by Section 545.352 on any part of a farm-to-market or a
    ranch-to-market road of the highway system that is located in that
    county and is without improved shoulders.
    (b) The commission shall give consideration to local public
    opinion and may determine and declare a lower speed limit on any
    part of the road without an engineering and traffic investigation,
    but the commission must use sound and generally accepted traffic
    engineering practices in determining and declaring the lower speed
    limit.
    (c) The commission by rule shall establish standards for
    determining lower speed limits within a set range.
    § 545.354. AUTHORITY OF REGIONAL TOLLWAY AUTHORITIES TO
    ALTER SPEED LIMITS ON TURNPIKE PROJECTS.
    (a)(1) In this section,
    "authority" means a regional tollway authority governed by Chapter
    366.
    (2) If an authority determines from the results of an
    engineering and traffic investigation that a prima facie speed
    limit described in this subchapter is unreasonable or unsafe on a
    part of a turnpike constructed and maintained by the authority, the
    authority by order recorded in its minutes shall determine and
    declare a reasonable and safe prima facie speed limit for vehicles
    or classes of vehicles on the turnpike.
    (b) In determining whether a prima facie speed limit on a
    part of a turnpike constructed and maintained by the authority is
    reasonable or safe, the authority shall consider the width and
    condition of the pavement, the usual traffic on the turnpike, and
    other circumstances.
    (c) A prima facie speed limit that is declared by the
    authority in accordance with this section is effective when the
    authority erects signs giving notice of the new limit. A new limit
    that is adopted for a turnpike project constructed and maintained
    by the authority in accordance with this section is effective at all
    times or at other times as determined.
    (d) The authority's power to alter prima facie speed limits
    is effective and exclusive on any part of a turnpike project
    constructed and maintained by the authority inside and outside the
    limits of a municipality, including a home-rule municipality.
    (e) The authority may not:
    (1) alter the general rule established by Section
    545.351(a); or
    (2) establish a speed limit of more than 70 miles per
    hour.
    (f) The authority, in conducting the engineering and
    traffic investigation specified by Subsection (a), shall follow the
    procedure for establishing speed zones adopted by the Texas
    Department of Transportation.
    § 545.355. AUTHORITY OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS COURT TO
    ALTER SPEED LIMITS.
    (a) The commissioners court of a county, for a
    county road or highway outside the limits of the right-of-way of an
    officially designated or marked highway or road of the state
    highway system and outside a municipality, has the same authority
    to increase prima facie speed limits from the results of an
    engineering and traffic investigation as the Texas Transportation
    Commission on an officially designated or marked highway of the
    state highway system.
    (b) The commissioners court of a county may declare a lower
    speed limit of not less than:
    (1) 30 miles per hour on a county road or highway to
    which this section applies, if the commissioners court determines
    that the prima facie speed limit on the road or highway is
    unreasonable or unsafe; or
    (2) 20 miles per hour in a residence district, unless
    the roadway has been designated as a major thoroughfare by a city
    planning commission.
    (c) The commissioners court may not modify the rule
    established by Section 545.351(a) or establish a speed limit of
    more than 60 miles per hour.
    (d) The commissioners court may modify a prima facie speed
    limit in accordance with this section only by an order entered on
    its records.
    (e) The commissioners court of a county with a population of
    more than 2.8 million may establish from the results of an
    engineering and traffic investigation a speed limit of not more
    than 70 miles per hour on any part of a highway of that county that
    is a limited-access or controlled-access highway, regardless of the
    location of the part of the highway.
    § 545.356. AUTHORITY OF MUNICIPALITY TO ALTER SPEED
    LIMITS.
    (a) The governing body of a municipality, for a highway or
    part of a highway in the municipality, including a highway of the
    state highway system, has the same authority to alter by ordinance
    prima facie speed limits from the results of an engineering and
    traffic investigation as the Texas Transportation Commission on an
    officially designated or marked highway of the state highway
    system. The governing body of a municipality may not modify the
    rule established by Section 545.351(a) or establish a speed limit
    of more than 60 miles per hour.
    (b) The governing body of a municipality, for a highway or
    part of a highway in the municipality, including a highway of the
    state highway system, has the same authority to alter prima facie
    speed limits from the results of an engineering and traffic
    investigation as the commission for an officially designated or
    marked highway of the state highway system, when the highway or part
    of the highway is under repair, construction, or maintenance. A
    municipality may not modify the rule established by Section
    545.351(a) or establish a speed limit of more than 60 miles per
    hour.
    (b-1) Except as provided by Subsection (b-2), the governing
    body of a municipality, for a highway or a part of a highway in an
    urban district in the municipality that is not an officially
    designated or marked highway or road of the state highway system, is
    35 feet or less in width, and along which vehicular parking is not
    prohibited on one or both sides of the highway, may declare a lower
    speed limit of not less than 25 miles per hour, if the governing
    body determines that the prima facie speed limit on the highway is
    unreasonable or unsafe.
    (b-2) Subsection (b-1) does not apply to a highway or part
    of a highway that has four or more lanes used for vehicular travel.
    (c) A prima facie speed limit that is altered by the
    governing body of a municipality under Subsection (b) or (b-1) is
    effective when the governing body erects signs giving notice of the
    new limit and at all times or at other times as determined.
    You are also improperly reading TRC § 545.352.

    TRC § 545.352PRIMA FACIE SPEED LIMITS. (a) A speed in
    excess of the limits established by Subsection (b) or under another
    provision of this subchapter is prima facie evidence that the speed
    is not reasonable and prudent
    and that the speed is unlawful.
    Simply put A motor vehicle traveling faster that the posted speed limit as determined under TRC sections 545.352 to 545.356 is considered to be travleling faster than a speed that is "reasonable and prudent" and therefore illegal.

    Since law requires governing authorities to evaluate traffic investigations and engineering studies of a roadway and the area before a speed limit is set, the proof already exists of what is a reasonable and prudent speed for a given stretch of roadway.

    TRC 545.351 prevents governing bodies from arbitraily setting speed limits without scientific and statistical data to back it up.
    Last edited by Northtechsan; 02-25-2007 at 01:07 PM.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by beavo451
    I did not misunderstand. Perhaps my instructor was wrong. He flat out told us that driving faster than the speed limit is not illegal.



    "At first glance" the speed was not reasonable or prudent. I think this would imply that there needs to be further investigation.

    You are going 35 in a 30. According to the second section, you are wrong. But, there is nobody on the road and it is in the middle of nowhere. You prove to the court that your speed of 35 was reasonable and prudent (not illegal under the first section). Court rules not guilty. So were you speeding?
    Yes, if you were going 35/30 you were indeed speeding.
    For the cops out there: You are an adult. If you want to write someone, write them. If you don't want to write someone, then don't write them.

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  20. #20
    Qui audet adipiscitur Bighead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northtechsan
    Nope, its illegal to go 1 mph over. However if i stopped everyone who went 5-10 mph over the limit I would be busy writing them tickets and would miss the ones going 15+ over.

    Its good that you don't write tickets for one mph over since radar has a margin of error +/-2mph.
    "A fanatic is one who won't change his mind, and won't change the subject." -Winston Churchill

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  21. #21
    Retired Sergeant - CHP SgtCHP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TulsaFiveO
    I was just curious, cause most people are usually going 5mph or more over the speed limit and I see officers never stopping them? Do most departments let that slide? I've lived in MN, WI, and now OK and have the similarities between departments

    Kind of like asking if it is okay to run a red light at 3:00 in the morning when there is no other traffic on the roadway. Or, if a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear it, will there be a noise?

    Be realistic and think about what you are asking. You cannot seek permission to violate the law from any officer. You have but two choices - comply or not comply. If you chose the latter, press hard: four copies!!!
    Be courteous to all, but intimate with few, and let those few be well tried before you give them your confidence!

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  22. #22
    Forum Member jmat1980's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlabamaCop
    It depends on the situation. If I'm sitting on the side of the road running radar, I'll let it slide because I don't have time to stop everyone that's going five over. If I'm driving on the interstate or highway at the speed limit and you pass me at five over, you can bet on getting some tickets.
    What about if your driving on the interstate at 5 over and i'm keeping up with you, at 5 over...you gonna write it then?

    IMO anything under 10 is not even worth stopping unless there are extenuating circumstances (i.e. school zone, bad weather conditions, etc...)

  23. #23
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Dallas / Fort Worth
    Posts
    348
    Quote Originally Posted by Bighead
    Its good that you don't write tickets for one mph over since radar has a margin of error +/-2mph.
    Where I work speeding only 1 mph over the limit is considered impeding the flow of traffic. Regardless its still speeding by the law.

    Quote Originally Posted by jmat1980
    IMO anything under 10 is not even worth stopping unless there are extenuating circumstances (i.e. school zone, bad weather conditions, etc...)
    Don't for get Pretext! I'll stop for speeding under 10 with to write a warning so I can get to know the driver, and the passengers in an interesting car.
    Last edited by Northtechsan; 02-26-2007 at 06:00 PM.

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