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  1. #26
    Frank Booth
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Booth
    ...Nevertheless, rights are rights and shouldn't be taken lightly.
    I talk too much, but that's just the way I am. About 6 years ago I was on duty and riding with what I shall call a young rookie deputy sheriff (shortage of cars). During a traffic stop he violated every constitutional right the driver had. I went home that night and prayed that I didn't have to get involved if the driver hired an attorney and filed a complaint. It wasn't his attitude or demeanor, it was clearly lack of training. Where this lack of training originated, I have no idea. At any rate..... this deputy sheriff disappeared from the face of the earth. I never did know where he went or why. He was gone the following week and nobody else knew anything either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Booth
    I'd be very hard-pressed to let someone arrest me if I knew they had no business doing so, or if they were just doing it for "contempt of cop" reasons.
    I feel the same way. But I know it's better to just go ahead and play the game. The final outcome isn't over until the fat lady on the jury sings in the lawsuits later. Like we'll see in the recent Louisiana case.

  3. #28
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    Once a not guilty verdict is handed down, it's then very clear they could have resisted the unlawful arrest.
    Well if that's the case...I'm just going to start handing out cards when I get to a crime scene that says: "You sir/madam could very well possibly be guilty of a crime, but since I really shouldn't arrest you because some liberal attorney might make a good case on your behalf, or a liberal judge and/or jury just might not believe the evidence brought against, I'm not taking you into custody right now. I, as a law enforcement officer, am going to do my job and complete all my paperwork and have an arrest warrant issued for you for the crime. If you so desire, and if it isn't too much trouble, would you please show up at court on the above specified day and time? I apologize in advance for any inconvenience this might cause you now and in the future."
    "What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. May God have mercy on your soul."

  4. #29
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    And before you go on the attack, I sat in on a jury trial where we arrested a man for murdering his girlfriend. DNA evidence was found at the crime scene, fingerprints were found at the crime scene, and other evidence placing the defendant at the crime scene were all shown at the trial. Upon the prosecution resting, the judge took a recess. When he came back he told the court that he was throwing the case out because he "Just can't let this fine young man, you I BELIEVE is innocent, be found guilty."

    All the officers, over half the jury, the prosecutor, and even the defense counsel shook their heads in bewilderment. A few of the jurors came to HQ after this and expressed extreme anger in the fact that the judge didn't allow the trial to continue, and removed their responsiblity. Even the defense attorney has said that in the 30+ years that he has practiced law, he has never heard of a judge pulling a stunt like this.

    So following your logic, despite the scientific evidence and the testimony of reliable witnesses, the defendant could now sue us for arresting him in the first place? All because a judge took it upon himself to circumvent the criminal justice system in Virginia, and rule prior to hearing all the evidence while there was a sitting jury?

    And research all you want....we have and it's NEVER been done before in VA. I venture to guess that it never will either.
    "What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. May God have mercy on your soul."

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by stretch
    And before you go on the attack, I sat in on a jury trial where we arrested a man for murdering his girlfriend.

    Upon the prosecution resting, the judge took a recess. When he came back he told the court that he was throwing the case out because he "Just can't let this fine young man, you I BELIEVE is innocent, be found guilty."
    .
    Well, the guy MUST have been innocent. Just like the school teacher in New Orleans. The case was thrown out, so he must have been fine gentleman, much like your murder suspect.

    We just had a judge throw out the largest mass murder case in Canadian history, the air india bombing. It was investigated for two decades, but the judge didn't feel the main witness a woman, who gave up her whole life and still remains in hiding to this day, was credible!

    Give me a break, the woman lost everything and has to look over her shoulder her whole life, regardless if they were convicted or not, so its difficult to see the motivation to be less than truthful.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by stretch
    And before you go on the attack, I sat in on a jury trial where we arrested a man for murdering his girlfriend. DNA evidence was found at the crime scene, fingerprints were found at the crime scene, and other evidence placing the defendant at the crime scene were all shown at the trial. Upon the prosecution resting, the judge took a recess. When he came back he told the court that he was throwing the case out because he "Just can't let this fine young man, you I BELIEVE is innocent, be found guilty."

    All the officers, over half the jury, the prosecutor, and even the defense counsel shook their heads in bewilderment. A few of the jurors came to HQ after this and expressed extreme anger in the fact that the judge didn't allow the trial to continue, and removed their responsiblity. Even the defense attorney has said that in the 30+ years that he has practiced law, he has never heard of a judge pulling a stunt like this.

    So following your logic, despite the scientific evidence and the testimony of reliable witnesses, the defendant could now sue us for arresting him in the first place? All because a judge took it upon himself to circumvent the criminal justice system in Virginia, and rule prior to hearing all the evidence while there was a sitting jury?

    And research all you want....we have and it's NEVER been done before in VA. I venture to guess that it never will either.
    I sure hope your prosecutor refiled the charges and requested that the judge be severely sactioned, if not removed from the bench, for his behavior.
    "He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."
    -Friedrich Nietzsche

  7. #32
    Frank Booth
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    Quote Originally Posted by stretch
    ....the judge took a recess. When he came back he told the court that he was throwing the case out because he "Just can't let this fine young man, you I BELIEVE is innocent, be found guilty."

    I think you are somehow mistaken. Can you dig up something on this case and show it to us? Having worked the courtroom for decades I have seen cases where police officers didn't understand what was just said or what just happened.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Booth
    ... would it be unusual to find the boyfriend's prints, DNA and other evidence to put him at the scene ....

    When my wife and I go into the bedroom, I wear gloves and turn my DNA off.

  10. #35
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    Resisting Arrest


    If you do; you'll only go to jail tired!

    Kelly

    We are the thin blue line
    between you
    and all the money in the world.

    And no you can't have any.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1sgkelly
    Resisting Arrest
    If you do; you'll only go to jail tired!

    I hate that bumper sticker. You know why?

    Because there are officers that never go home after a good resist.

  12. #37
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    An arrest needs to be based on probable cause. If there is not enough PC, then it may be an illegal arrest. But I beilieve that these laws aren't really intended for these type of "maybe" situations. I beilieve that it addresses (and rightfully so) a "rouge cop" type of situation.

    I KNOW of officer becoming involved in situations personally first, and professionally second. Never good. They lose an argument, "you're under arrest." They lose a fight, "you're under arrest." They lose a card game or bet, "you're under arrest." Rare, but it HAS happened.

    Plus, I bet a lot of these laws were written when times WERE different. No cameras everywhere. The media didn't have a strangle holdon the police like they do now.

    The bottom line is if I am at home and the police come into my house shooting (since I KNOW that I am good, and I KNOW that deadly force is not warranted) my *** is shooting back. Do I think that this is going to happen? No. Do I think that this happens a lot? No. But this HAS happened in the past (NO, I can't show you an article, but in the course of history ......).

    Another situation: I get stopped for a red light violation and the police drag me from my car window and start hitting me in the head with a baton. I DO have the right to resist excessive force. Don't EVEN TRY to tell me that I don't. The courts will (or at least should) back me up, too.

    Having said all of that, most talk of resisting illegal arrest will do nothing but make crooks think that they can fight back. They mostly would have fought anyway, but I hate reading things like this in the news without any explanation.

  13. #38
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    I think that most, if not all, people that resist arrest aren't fighting because they believe that the arrest is unlawful. They are fighting because that's who they are.

    They use the "unlawful arrest" arguement later on, once they've been counseled to do so by their lawyer.

    Does anyone truely believe that when these guys fight with us, it's because they believe that the elements of whatever offence it haven't been met, or that there's no mens rea? The only thoughts these guys have are F.U and/or I have to get away.

    They resist, because they either have a fight or flight instinct, that has been bred, or instilled into them.

    Any reasonable and rational person is normally going to be nervous and compliant when dealing with the police.

  14. #39
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    Even if you believe an arrest is illegal, resisting will not help the situation at hand. It will only make matters worse and probably end up with you being injured.

    If the arrest is actually illegal, then deal with it during criminal (and civil) proceedings. Do not deal with it on the scene by resisting the officer. You're an idiot of you do and you're going to lose. If the officer believed the arrest was lawful at the time, he will also charge you with resisting and the courts (at least in my state) will uphold it.

    But let's get serious here, how many people in your lifetime as LEO's have resisted an illegal arrest? Worst case scenario is the perp gets off on a technicality, but you still knew you were in the right during the incident.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 21blue28
    An arrest needs to be based on probable cause. If there is not enough PC, then it may be an illegal arrest. But I beilieve that these laws aren't really intended for these type of "maybe" situations. I beilieve that it addresses (and rightfully so) a "rouge cop" type of situation.

    I KNOW of officer becoming involved in situations personally first, and professionally second. Never good. They lose an argument, "you're under arrest." They lose a fight, "you're under arrest." They lose a card game or bet, "you're under arrest." Rare, but it HAS happened.

    Plus, I bet a lot of these laws were written when times WERE different. No cameras everywhere. The media didn't have a strangle holdon the police like they do now.

    The bottom line is if I am at home and the police come into my house shooting (since I KNOW that I am good, and I KNOW that deadly force is not warranted) my *** is shooting back. Do I think that this is going to happen? No. Do I think that this happens a lot? No. But this HAS happened in the past (NO, I can't show you an article, but in the course of history ......).

    Another situation: I get stopped for a red light violation and the police drag me from my car window and start hitting me in the head with a baton. I DO have the right to resist excessive force. Don't EVEN TRY to tell me that I don't. The courts will (or at least should) back me up, too.

    Having said all of that, most talk of resisting illegal arrest will do nothing but make crooks think that they can fight back. They mostly would have fought anyway, but I hate reading things like this in the news without any explanation.
    The extreme "examples" aren't the best in this case, however. The examples you used are so bizarre, so off-the-wall, that they boarder on the realm of lunacy.

    There are at least a couple of big questions that make a difference regarding whether or not such laws are really useful to the public.

    The first one is, how much does the general public really know about the law? If you walked up to random people on the street, how many could tell you that a police officer needs probable cause to effect an arrest? And, then, how many of those could actually define probable cause? I think we all know the answer to that...

    Another question is, how often do we, as police officers, outline our probable cause to the people we arrest? The street is not the courtroom. When I'm arresting somebody, I don't lay all my evidence on the hood of the car and line up my witnesses on the sidewalk so the person I'm arresting can see. I don't let people play lawyer on the street and argue with me...and I've never met a good, experienced police officer who did.

    A law that tells people that they can, legally, resist an "unlawful arrest" will only cause more harm to the arrestee. When the average citizen doesn't have the knowledge, experience, or information to understand what an unlawful arrest actually is, then it's not smart to declare to them that they have that choice.
    "He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."
    -Friedrich Nietzsche

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by SgtScott31
    .... how many people in your lifetime as LEO's have resisted an illegal arrest?
    I know two.

    1) The teacher in Louisiana, or so it seems.

    2) And a deputy sheriff arrested for impersonating a deputy sheriff. The deputy sheriff knew he was a deputy sheriff. The deputy sheriff knew the paperwork in the Circuit Court would show he was currently a deputy sheriff. And the deputy sheriff knew the Sheriff would confirm his identity as a deputy sheriff. So the bottom line is..... this deputy sheriff could have resisted the unlawful arrest with whatever force was necessary to overcome the unlawful arrest. Even if this level of force meant taking the arresting officer's life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Booth
    And you have a severely over-inflated ego to assume that you DO have a clue where others don't. That's a great quality for a policeman to have. I'm sure it serves you well in your job....You know...considering other peoples' perspective and coming up with a thoughtful response....Listening to both sides of an argument.....You're destined for greatness, I'm sure.
    I wonder if he walks up to people on the street and calls them a MORON? A good way to determine the answer is to look at an officer's frequency in placing resisting arrest charges every year.

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vtfuzz
    No, it's illegal to resist any type of arrest, and up to the courts to decide whether or not the arrest is legal or not. I personally think that is an asinine law as it could lead to the death or serious injury of either a cop or citizen.
    Are you kidding. Just because we are cop does not give us the right to play with peoples lives without just cause. In Ga anyone has the right to resist an unlawful restraint or arrest with the minimum reasonable & necessary force.

    While I would not suggest it, it is every citizens right and I believe if challenged, the supreme court would agree. The fourth amd. guarentees your rights against unlawful seach and seizure (including of your person). Much the same as a citizen may effect a citizens arrest they may also resist and unlawful arrest by ANYONE.
    Last edited by miked6; 04-15-2006 at 10:06 AM.
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  20. #45
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  21. #46
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    The problem I see here is that you can't count on citizens having enough knowledge of the law to deem an arrest lawful or unlawful. So, we would in essence have anyone who feels "this is not fair" fighting us and feeling justified about it. I like the "let the court decide" statutes better.

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badboys
    I think this has to take the cake on stupid posts. Why would anyone think that you could resist arrest if YOU thought the arrest was unlawful. Since when does the general public have the right to decide if an arrest by an officer is lawful or not. If your being arrested by what even appears to be a police officer then you deserve to get hurt if you decide to resist. This post shouldn't have even been posted under the stupid rule!!
    Once again, sometimes thugs dress up like cops to commit crimes.
    "Keep up the good fight, pass the word, and teach others to fight back when unjustly assaulted--be it on the street or in the courtroom. Self-defense is a normal, moral act. So teach your family, friends, and students practical defense against both physical and legal marauders." by Jerry VanCook www.PrisonOfficer.Org

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    Quote Originally Posted by stretch
    Well if that's the case...I'm just going to start handing out cards when I get to a crime scene that says: "You sir/madam could very well possibly be guilty of a crime, but since I really shouldn't arrest you because some liberal attorney might make a good case on your behalf, or a liberal judge and/or jury just might not believe the evidence brought against, I'm not taking you into custody right now. I, as a law enforcement officer, am going to do my job and complete all my paperwork and have an arrest warrant issued for you for the crime. If you so desire, and if it isn't too much trouble, would you please show up at court on the above specified day and time? I apologize in advance for any inconvenience this might cause you now and in the future."
    That's ridiculous. If one actually has Probable Cause or a warrant, the the arrest is legal regardless of the outcome.

    Statutes like the one being discussed have a historical basis--back to a time when professional law enforcement agencies were few and far between and citizens regurally banded together under the direction/supervision of an officer or not, for the purpose of doing in their communities that which governemnt was too weak to do--supress crime and apprehend criminals.
    "Keep up the good fight, pass the word, and teach others to fight back when unjustly assaulted--be it on the street or in the courtroom. Self-defense is a normal, moral act. So teach your family, friends, and students practical defense against both physical and legal marauders." by Jerry VanCook www.PrisonOfficer.Org

  25. #50
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