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  1. #1
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    corporal punishment of children

    How much authority does an officer in your jurisdiction (please state jurisdiction) have to deal with cases involving unreasonable parental discipline (whether one would consider the discipline to be "abuse" or not), particularly corporal punishment?

    Corporal punishment of a certain degree is apparently criminally exempt everywhere in the United States and Canada, but of course it must not be abusive. How much leeway does an officer where you are from have if he or she sees discipline he or she considers unreasonable? Specifically:

    -can an officer intervene in a case of corporal punishment only if the parent
    is likely to be using such force as could put the child into the hospital, or
    could the officer intervene in any case he or she considers to be excessive or
    degrading?

    -can an officer ever intervene in the case of emotional abuse, in the case of
    any kind of humiliating, degrading or otherwise unreasonable punishment,
    whatsoever?

    And another question related to this. Since parents are entitled to use a certain degree of corporal punishment;- in other words behaviour that would otherwise constitute assault, what if the child physically defends itself against this punishment, either by resistance or by reciprocation? Would the child's self-defence in this case constitute criminal assault of the parent?

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    There is a line between disciplining a child and abusing a child.Each officer has his own line on that.Personally,I was an abused child and have very little tolerance for abused children,but I am all for a child getting spanked if he needs a spanking.Every officer is different,I think that is where experience and understanding comes into play.

  3. #3
    jakflak
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    Quote Originally Posted by Highland Colonel
    Corporal punishment of a certain degree is apparently criminally exempt everywhere in the United States and Canada, but of course it must not be abusive.
    Child abuse is outside of corporal punishment, despite the intent of the parent just as rape can't be considered the same as hugging a child. They're two different things. Using excessive force on a child is abuse, not corporal punishment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Highland Colonel
    can an officer ever intervene in the case of emotional abuse, in the case of
    any kind of humiliating, degrading or otherwise unreasonable punishment,
    whatsoever?
    No, emotional abuse isn't a crime. However, it can be reported to the state (Office of Children's services in Alaska).

  4. #4
    AnGardaSiochana
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    Quote Originally Posted by Highland Colonel
    How much authority does an officer in your jurisdiction (please state jurisdiction) have to deal with cases involving unreasonable parental discipline (whether one would consider the discipline to be "abuse" or not), particularly corporal punishment?

    Corporal punishment of a certain degree is apparently criminally exempt everywhere in the United States and Canada, but of course it must not be abusive. How much leeway does an officer where you are from have if he or she sees discipline he or she considers unreasonable? Specifically:

    -can an officer intervene in a case of corporal punishment only if the parent
    is likely to be using such force as could put the child into the hospital, or
    could the officer intervene in any case he or she considers to be excessive or
    degrading?

    -can an officer ever intervene in the case of emotional abuse, in the case of
    any kind of humiliating, degrading or otherwise unreasonable punishment,
    whatsoever?

    And another question related to this. Since parents are entitled to use a certain degree of corporal punishment;- in other words behaviour that would otherwise constitute assault, what if the child physically defends itself against this punishment, either by resistance or by reciprocation? Would the child's self-defence in this case constitute criminal assault of the parent?
    This isnt really a police matter in Ireland unless its severe however based on the last training program I did any force used against a child is abuse and so is threatening or abusive language. Its abuse when you say "Im gonna kill you" Even though you dont mean it.

    Personally I dont smack and I try not too shout but sometimes its the only thing that will work.

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    It's Domestic Violence here and that's sad. Whip a kids rear and leave a mark and the parent can be arrested.

    My thought is tell the kid that's okay call the police I'll be out of jail before you get out of the hospital.

    We have had wise ***** kids call police saying Mom or Dad slapped them and we did end up taking kid into custody. talk about a shocked spoiled little brat.

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    Corporal punishment of children

    We currently live in a "touchy feelie" society. That said, there is no excuse, and I mean, no excuse for abusing a child. Corporal punishment of a child is permitted in most, if not all American states. It's very difficult to give a one size fits all answer to your question on this forum. According to An Garda, and I have no reason to doubt him, simply yelling at a child in Ireland can constitute abuse. The only answer I can give, is to view each case on it's merits. Obviously, a child with a black eye, numerous bruises, etc, is probably an abuse victim, and further inquiries need to be made. Removing a child from the home, or place the abuse is taking place is more than justified here.

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    Col., in Az. like other places,abuse, in the context you're talking about is subjective. Now,spanking a kid most would agree is corporal punishment & experience will dictate what exactly the off. does. Now if the child, say 12-14 yoa decides he's going to defend himself (here) that would be construed as DV/Assault & the child would possibly be arrested. I'm pretty liberal when it comes to parents discipling their child so I have no problem with Dad going toe-to-toe with his 17 yr old son who just took his car,But that's just me

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    Years ago I took a call for service on afternoons re: assault; unknown.

    When I arrived to the apt. this kid (16yoa and fairly good size) opens the door. He's got a nose that looks like a giant red bell pepper.

    He had climbed out of his bedroom window the night before and walked to his older sister's apartment.

    They told us this horror story about their dad and how he/dad had initiated this unprovoked assault on the brother.

    We went to see dad.

    Mom and dad were both there and told us the following story (in a nutshell).

    The afternoon before the dad came home early from work and was sitting in the living room reading the paper.

    The victim was in his room (with the stereo blasting). He/son hadn't gone to school that day so mom insisted he help with washing the dishes and the son kept blowing her off.

    Mom finally opens the son's bedroom door and shouted at him to turn down the music, get off his *** and come wash the dishes.

    The son flew off the bed, stepped outside of his room and screamed "F....you bitch, I ain't washing your f...ing dishes!"

    The son didn't know dad was home.

    The dad confronted the son and slapped him along side of his face. The son fell down and landed face first on to the fire place hearth resulting in the injury to the son's nose.

    After collecting our written statements we re-interviewed and confronted the son with the parents version and he copped to spinning just a bit and provided written statements.

    The parents arranged for the son to stay with his sister for awhile and I long formed the complaint to the C/A.

    The C/A declined to prosecute and I felt that was the right call.

    Old Dog

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    Some kids need a good beating now and again.
    I was one.
    I would not be on this side of the badge today if I had not had dicipline.

  10. #10
    zap
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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaldan
    Some kids need a good beating now and again.
    I was one.
    I would not be on this side of the badge today if I had not had dicipline.

    I think that is hitting the nail on the head. As society gets more "touchy feelie" (as already mentioned) ....we witness more disrespect and hatred of ANY authority of any kind.

    The same trend affects domestic violence issues as well. When "He pushed me!" can put a guy in jail regardless of her actions.........and a kid can put a parent in jail for enforcing household rules...... we, society as a whole, are screwed unless we fix it quick.
    An impressionable child in a tumultuous world, and they say I'm at a difficult stage... --Meat Loaf

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    Guys, I was, by todays standard, an abused child. I can't help but grin.

    My old man NEVER burned me, beat me, fractured my bones etc., but he was hard on me and my brothers. I have minor scars from a few disciplinary sessions with him but nothing that I consider to be abuse.

    Once when I was about 16 yoa, the old man was driving me to school. I don't recall the circumstance that inspired me to refer to a local cop as a "pig".

    I wished, at the time, that I had been sitting in the back seat instead of riding shotgun.

    My dad began, instantly, slapping me about the head and face all the while explaining that the military and police deserve our highest respect. He put knots on my head faster than I could rub them, and I DO NOT begrudge him one bit for any of the instruction I received through those years.

    But, I am very careful when investigating an alleged case of abuse and I will not cut any slack to an abuser.

    Old Dog

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    I suggest you look take a look in the Criminal Code. I believe it's Section 43 (If not it's right around there). A parent, guardian, or teacher is allowed to use "corrective force" to disipline a child. Look up the annotations for the section and it should give you a bunch of case law on what the courts view as abuse vs. punishment.
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    I have to agree, if my father (and oh my lord don't p^%% of mom) had not given me and my siblings firm discipline I may not be where I am today and I know my brother would have long ago been locked up or dead. My parents never went any farther than an ***** whippin with a belt or, my moms favorite, a willow switch that we had to go get. I regret using foul language at my mother once at about 16; let
    10-9 ??? AWW S%$#

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    Quote Originally Posted by 51094
    I suggest you look take a look in the Criminal Code. I believe it's Section 43 (If not it's right around there). A parent, guardian, or teacher is allowed to use "corrective force" to disipline a child. Look up the annotations for the section and it should give you a bunch of case law on what the courts view as abuse vs. punishment.
    The infamous section 43. The thing with this, however, is that a recent Supreme Court judgement limited the extent to which it could be used. According to the latest precedent it is unacceptable to corporally punish children younger than 2 and teenagers, to strike them about the head (does this include slapping the face?), to use implements and to it in any way but that it be of a "trifling" nature. Also the Court interpreted it as giving parents but not teachers the right to corporally punish. For this reason, it is all the more interesting to me what a Canadian police officer would do in the case of seeing incidents of corporal punishment going against these guidelines.

    Old Dog, you are entitled to think what you want about your father's actions, but I consider them abusive and backward, even if well-meant. Explaining why an officer should be respected is one thing. Assaulting you as punishment for it is another.

    When I was a child, corporal punishment did not make me a better person. It just taught me to hide my actions from my mother. Currently 17 nations make corporal punishment illegal and the United Nations is calling for a worldwide ban. In Canada, corporal punishment seems less popular than in the United States (at least compared to the South, where "whupping/whooping" and paddling are a fairly widespread form of discipline) so by your standards we should have more crime and related problems. Actually, however, we have less. I have no time now so I won't expound further on the issue. I certainly believe in discipline, but not in degrading, disrespectful and draconian discipline. There are more positive ways of disciplining children and it is also hypocritical to expect children to respect adults while not respecting them in return.

    For further research I suggest these websites:
    www.nospank.net
    www.endcorporalpunishment.org

  15. #15
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    You asked the question!

    Quote Originally Posted by Highland Colonel
    The infamous section 43. The thing with this, however, is that a recent Supreme Court judgement limited the extent to which it could be used. According to the latest precedent it is unacceptable to corporally punish children younger than 2 and teenagers, to strike them about the head (does this include slapping the face?), to use implements and to it in any way but that it be of a "trifling" nature. Also the Court interpreted it as giving parents but not teachers the right to corporally punish. For this reason, it is all the more interesting to me what a Canadian police officer would do in the case of seeing incidents of corporal punishment going against these guidelines.

    Old Dog, you are entitled to think what you want about your father's actions, but I consider them abusive and backward, even if well-meant. Explaining why an officer should be respected is one thing. Assaulting you as punishment for it is another.

    When I was a child, corporal punishment did not make me a better person. It just taught me to hide my actions from my mother. Currently 17 nations make corporal punishment illegal and the United Nations is calling for a worldwide ban. In Canada, corporal punishment seems less popular than in the United States (at least compared to the South, where "whupping/whooping" and paddling are a fairly widespread form of discipline) so by your standards we should have more crime and related problems. Actually, however, we have less. I have no time now so I won't expound further on the issue. I certainly believe in discipline, but not in degrading, disrespectful and draconian discipline. There are more positive ways of disciplining children and it is also hypocritical to expect children to respect adults while not respecting them in return.

    For further research I suggest these websites:
    www.nospank.net
    www.endcorporalpunishment.org

    YOU asked the question, then you put down OLDDOG for voicing his opinion? Nice....

    Now your gonna start the debate of what the US does and how Canada has it all figured out with your "Lower" crime rate. Your knowledge of the American south is truly astounding! You say you believe in discipline but that it cant be "degrading, disrespectful or draconian". I'm sure "harsh words" are the cure-all in the Canadian Utopia, but down here in the crime ridden US sometimes people have to do a little more. Positive discipline? Positive reinforcement of good behavior Negative reinforcement of improper behavior. Do you even have kids? Mine is awesome 96.3% of the time. Having said that, "sometimes", his listening gets turned off. I will ask him once, tell him once, remind him once then then it is apparent to me I do not have his attention, address his rear-end with my hand once. In Toronto this may be considered Child abuse, however in the US this is NOT considered "Backwards".

    I have to believe #1 that an Officer can usually note the difference between abuse and punishment and #2 If he/she truly cant, the tie goes to the parents.

  16. #16
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    Lack of:

    Lack of good ***** whoopins, and more than a few back hands is what's wrong with our country today. Single parenting and touchy feely parenting has really screwed up our society...and unfortunately it's ya'll LEOs that have to put up with it.

    Minimum effort yeilds minimal results

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    Quote Originally Posted by Highland Colonel
    Old Dog, you are entitled to think what you want about your father's actions, but I consider them abusive and backward, even if well-meant. Explaining why an officer should be respected is one thing. Assaulting you as punishment for it is another.
    Highland,

    You are a blip on the radar of this website and I for one will be glad when you are finished stirring the pot. There is nothing wrong with "lively debate" but as near as I can see your initial posts have been nothing more than trolling, race baiting and political BS!

    Have you nothing better to do with your time? Also, what is it that you hate about the Southern (Southeastern) US so much? Have you ever been here?

    Other "veterans" on this board may disagree I believe you to be a TROLL. Whether you are or not in my book you are full of crap.

    TRPR2B
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    Highland Colonel

    "Currently 17 nations make corporal punishment illegal and the United Nations is calling for a worldwide ban."
    __________________________________________________ _______________
    Sir, the United Nations is calling for much broader worldwide bans than just corporal punishment.

    They want control of our inland waterways, they want to ban the private ownership of firearms (I know the rest of the world doesn't understand our personal feelings regarding this, but we really don't care what the rest of the world thinks) and they want to have the power to summon American military and police into the courts of other countries to stand trial for alleged violations of their/U.N. code.

    Why would anyone support the U.N.? Don't you understand what this organization really stands for? What they really want?

    The U.N. wants to do away with the sovereignty of ALL nations. They want to take away our right to govern ourselves. What is the matter with people who don't see a problem with this?

    I don't know about the rest of the world, but I do not want America to succumb to this U.N philosophy of world domination.

    Guys, if there are any American cops out there who are not familiar with this, please, conduct your own research by simply typing into the internet. It's like a bad sci-fi movie.

    I don't know about cops from other countries, but I swore my oath against all enemies of America, foreign and domestic.

    Old Dog

    Edit:
    Now before some of my American brothers and sisters start kicking my *** over this post let me say; I'm not intending to offend anybody but this is an open post, I am an American and I think freedom of speech applies to me too.
    Okay, got it? No offense intended, but I'm standing firm on my beliefs regarding American sovereignty.
    Last edited by Old Dog; 11-26-2005 at 08:30 PM.

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    This debate follows every thing all the way down to ford vs. chevy. I personally do not like it when people intentionally start something like this just to make a firestorm of it. There is nothing wrong with a useful debate.

    Corporal punishment in its self is not a bad thing and is a response to a negative action. As long as the punishment fits the action and is not carried overboard then it will have positive out come in most instances. Corporal punishment is a tool as well as positive reinforcement and other means. I am all for every effort at dealing with negative behavior and using corporal punishment as a last means. There are times when a time out or a week
    10-9 ??? AWW S%$#

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    AKFireCop, I did not put down OldDog. I merely disagreed with him.

    I have every right to voice my opinion. Why do you think I am a troll? Because I do not agree with your views, I am somehow supposed to be here for inflamatory purposes? My original questions were all for the purposes of information. I did not voice my opinion either on this subject nor on the subject of grooming regulations until others had voiced theirs. I had merely asked what the rules. are.

    I am not a troll, but I am a nonconformist. If you don't like that, that's your problem. I don't like it that you appreciate the "value" of corporal punishment. I do not like it either that many people do not recognise the Pledge of Allegiance for the anti-democratic indoctrination that it is. But what can I do? I can just voice my opinion.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Highland Colonel
    Old Dog, you are entitled to think what you want about your father's actions, but I consider them abusive and backward, even if well-meant. Explaining why an officer should be respected is one thing. Assaulting you as punishment for it is another.

    When I was a child, corporal punishment did not make me a better person. It just taught me to hide my actions from my mother. Currently 17 nations make corporal punishment illegal and the United Nations is calling for a worldwide ban. In Canada, corporal punishment seems less popular than in the United States (at least compared to the South, where "whupping/whooping" and paddling are a fairly widespread form of discipline) so by your standards we should have more crime and related problems. Actually, however, we have less. I have no time now so I won't expound further on the issue. I certainly believe in discipline, but not in degrading, disrespectful and draconian discipline. There are more positive ways of disciplining children and it is also hypocritical to expect children to respect adults while not respecting them in return.

    For further research I suggest these websites:
    www.nospank.net
    www.endcorporalpunishment.org


    TROLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL go take your liberal views and sell them someplace else. We are full up of crazy already, you obviously have an agenda here and thats why you wants to know what jurisdiction we are in and WHO GIVES A FLYING F(&&*() about what the UN or other nations do. I give you a 9 out of 10 on the Troll scale. I know how to investigate a abuse case I DO NOT, nor do I expect any other officer here NEED YOUR RESEARCH.
    MY child had better respect me, I do not want him to fear me but I want him to learn right from wrong and it is my right..nay my duty to teach him that. LIBERALS like you are what is causing so many things to go wrong in this world.
    Happy to be here proud to serve

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    Quote Originally Posted by Highland Colonel
    AKFireCop, I did not put down OldDog. I merely disagreed with him.
    Wow! I must have struck a nerve! Oh and by the way, it's TRPR2B. I do not recall AKFireCop making those accusations. I did and I stand by them.

    Here's another question for you; Are you a parent?

    Here's another one; How old are you?

    Here's another one; Have you ever been to the US and more specifically the Southeastern US?

    You still didn't answer that question from my last post. Oh and you're statement that you haven't voiced your opinion on the issues of corporal punishment or grooming requirements on another thread is dis-ingenuous at best. You sling this mess out here, wait for someone to offer a view that opposes your own and then slink back in to make an off-handed "observation".

    This makes you at the very least a troll. An individual that employs these types of tactics would be labeled by most as a coward. I'm a calling you that? No, but your behavior certainly fits the bill.

    Oh and for the record, I'm not criticizing you because of your view point (although I do think it's ignorant and ill-informed). I am criticizing you because of what I said in the previous post and this one; I don't think you came here looking for an honest debate I think you came here to stir the pot. If not for that reason then what? You certainly did not come here for "research". A researcher poses the questions and then solicits as many responses as possible. A researcher may even prod a little here and there to further increase dialogue so that he/she can gain as much knowledge and a better understanding of ALL views as they possibly can. I haven't seen that from you.

    In fact if I didn't know better, based on your sentence structure and tact I would swear you were another poster on here that goes by the name of "Malcontent".
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Highland Colonel
    AKFireCop, I did not put down OldDog. I merely disagreed with him.

    I have every right to voice my opinion. Why do you think I am a troll? Because I do not agree with your views, I am somehow supposed to be here for inflamatory purposes? My original questions were all for the purposes of information. I did not voice my opinion either on this subject nor on the subject of grooming regulations until others had voiced theirs. I had merely asked what the rules. are.

    I am not a troll, but I am a nonconformist. If you don't like that, that's your problem. I don't like it that you appreciate the "value" of corporal punishment. I do not like it either that many people do not recognise the Pledge of Allegiance for the anti-democratic indoctrination that it is. But what can I do? I can just voice my opinion.
    Hey, Dumb@ss, I didnt call you a Troll! I think you are. But I didnt call you one. In the posts you have done recently, I see a pattern.

    1. You post a question that asks for an opinion.
    2. You wait a few days for the topic to heat up.
    3. You then come in with your opion that is ALWAYS different than the majority that have poted.
    4. you get upset when people think your an idiot.

    The fact that these traits are commonly associated with "Trolls" should be an eye opener for you.

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    Col, I've read the responses,even gave you my own thoughts,but what I don't see is a tangible,accurate or logical reason why you think corporal punishment is bad. If you are a parent (& before you ask,I'm not) then you know children will test you,that's how they learn. Now if you don't want to teach your child,fine.To me that's more abusive. But to let a child push ANY authority figure around is just wrong & negligient on the parents part. Too often offs. see serious young criminals arrested & when talking to a family member at least 1 of them will say " I don't understandwe gave him (or he had)everything he wanted. We never told him "no"" . The result? the little monster is now part of the judicial system simply because the parent was affraid to stand-up & discipline the child by taking it to whatever means necessary. Give us LEOs some credit--we know what abuse is & if the parentis abusive we'll deal with it. But to try to start an active campaign against parents physically disciplining their child by using the police community to be your personal enforcers is wrong.

  25. #25
    EJB
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    Quote Originally Posted by zap
    I think that is hitting the nail on the head. As society gets more "touchy feelie" (as already mentioned) ....we witness more disrespect and hatred of ANY authority of any kind.

    The same trend affects domestic violence issues as well. When "He pushed me!" can put a guy in jail regardless of her actions.........and a kid can put a parent in jail for enforcing household rules...... we, society as a whole, are screwed unless we fix it quick.
    You took the words right out of my mouth. It seems more and more that the inmates are running the assylum. Why should kids these days show any type or respect towards anyone when we as parents are not allowed to disipline our own kids without fear of being arrested and charged with abuse.

    Schools are telling kids that nobody has the right to touch you in anyway unless you want them to and if someone does, you have the right to call the police. This goes for the parents of the student as well. Now with this information in hand you now have kids getting in the face of parents taunting them and saying something like "go ahead and hit me and then see what happens". Usually the parent backs down, and control goes to the kid.

    Ya society needs to pull it's collective head out of it's ***** and put the adults back in charge.

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