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Thread: discrimination in sports??

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    discrimination in sports??

    I guess not everyone has moved on, sounds familiar of a time long ago:
    Torii Hunter: Having an openly gay teammate would ‘be difficult and uncomfortable’
    Citing his religious upbringing, Detroit Tigers slugger Torii Hunter told the Los Angeles Times that having an openly homosexual teammate would be tough to deal with. And it would be a divisive issue for any Major League Baseball team.

    Quoted by reporter Kevin Baxter of the Times in his Sunday story — "In pro sports, gay athletes still feel unwelcome" — Hunter indicated he would not — or could not — be supportive of a teammate with a different sexual orientation than his own:

    ... Hunter, among baseball's most thoughtful and intelligent players, isn't kidding when he says an "out" teammate could divide a team.

    "For me, as a Christian … I will be uncomfortable because in all my teachings and all my learning, biblically, it's not right," he says. "It will be difficult and uncomfortable."

    Kudos to Hunter for his honesty. But he needs to realize a few things.

    One, after playing nearly 2,000 major league games, Hunter probably has had at least one gay teammate already. Two, when has the sexual orientation of any teammate (assuming they've all been straight) mattered in how many games a team has won? Did the Tigers get to the World Series in 2012 because Justin Verlander is in a relationship with Kate Upton? How would it matter if Verlander dated someone named Bob Upton?

    Three, using Christianity to hide behind bigotry is totally unfair to Christians who don't consider being gay "not right." And even a literal, so-called "fundamental" reading of the Bible requires some interpretation. People believe what they want to believe. Saying you don't like gays because you also say you're Christian just isn't good enough.

    Hunter might be right about the issue being divisive. A major league clubhouse can very much be a boys club, overflowing with testosterone and full of jocular "humor" that might threaten a gay person. But ballplayers aren't dumb. As soon as they realize a gay teammate can hit a home run just like a straight one can, they'll ignore whatever details they might find disagreeable. They might even come to like or love the teammate. And if Hunter is as devoted to the Bible as he says, he might find reading material in there about that, too.

    http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/mlb-bi...0197--mlb.html
    To each is their own when it comes to your beliefs, but I just laugh at his statement. When others had similar comments prior to Jackie Robinson playing with the Dodgers.

    Any other thoughts on this?
    I'd rather be judged by 12 rather carried by 6.

    It should be noted that any and all post that are made or based on my own thought and opinions.

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    Why aren't women allowed in MLB?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed View Post
    Why aren't women allowed in MLB?
    I think I see what you're gettin' at here... No women in MLB... Why would an organization not allow women?.. It's what I've suspected all along.. MLB is homosexual conspiracy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moparfan View Post
    I guess not everyone has moved on, sounds familiar of a time long ago:
    Torii Hunter: Having an openly gay teammate would ‘be difficult and uncomfortable’
    Citing his religious upbringing, Detroit Tigers slugger Torii Hunter told the Los Angeles Times that having an openly homosexual teammate would be tough to deal with. And it would be a divisive issue for any Major League Baseball team.

    Quoted by reporter Kevin Baxter of the Times in his Sunday story — "In pro sports, gay athletes still feel unwelcome" — Hunter indicated he would not — or could not — be supportive of a teammate with a different sexual orientation than his own:

    ... Hunter, among baseball's most thoughtful and intelligent players, isn't kidding when he says an "out" teammate could divide a team.

    "For me, as a Christian … I will be uncomfortable because in all my teachings and all my learning, biblically, it's not right," he says. "It will be difficult and uncomfortable."

    Kudos to Hunter for his honesty. But he needs to realize a few things.

    One, after playing nearly 2,000 major league games, Hunter probably has had at least one gay teammate already. Two, when has the sexual orientation of any teammate (assuming they've all been straight) mattered in how many games a team has won? Did the Tigers get to the World Series in 2012 because Justin Verlander is in a relationship with Kate Upton? How would it matter if Verlander dated someone named Bob Upton?

    Three, using Christianity to hide behind bigotry is totally unfair to Christians who don't consider being gay "not right." And even a literal, so-called "fundamental" reading of the Bible requires some interpretation. People believe what they want to believe. Saying you don't like gays because you also say you're Christian just isn't good enough.

    Hunter might be right about the issue being divisive. A major league clubhouse can very much be a boys club, overflowing with testosterone and full of jocular "humor" that might threaten a gay person. But ballplayers aren't dumb. As soon as they realize a gay teammate can hit a home run just like a straight one can, they'll ignore whatever details they might find disagreeable. They might even come to like or love the teammate. And if Hunter is as devoted to the Bible as he says, he might find reading material in there about that, too.

    http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/mlb-bi...0197--mlb.html
    To each is their own when it comes to your beliefs, but I just laugh at his statement. When others had similar comments prior to Jackie Robinson playing with the Dodgers.

    Any other thoughts on this?
    My thoughts are that some people are as clueless as humanly possible. Where's the discrimination? How it disrimination to say it would be tough to deal with open homosexuality on the team? Have you ever been in a locker room? They probably don't have seperate suites. I can tell you that being in close military quarters it would not have gone over well so I can sympathize with him.

    Also, please explain how 2,000 years of biblical exegesis on homosexuality suddenly needs creativity to see anything wrong with it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed View Post
    Why aren't women allowed in MLB?
    Show me anything that says women are not allowed. When it comes to gender, the issue is the ability to compete on the same level. I am sure if if a woman could hit a ball 450 feet there would be no issue. I am not saying that I know for sure that a woman couldn't. However, I am not aware of any female who has physically proven she could play on a man's level in any of the four major sports yet was denied.

    Unlike gender; race, religion and sexual orientation have no impact on a person's ability to compete on the same level.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasperST View Post
    My thoughts are that some people are as clueless as humanly possible. Where's the discrimination? How it disrimination to say it would be tough to deal with open homosexuality on the team? Have you ever been in a locker room? They probably don't have seperate suites. I can tell you that being in close military quarters it would not have gone over well so I can sympathize with him.

    Also, please explain how 2,000 years of biblical exegesis on homosexuality suddenly needs creativity to see anything wrong with it.
    Nobody is asking for the Bible to change. And saying that a person's lifestyle makes you uncomfortable is not really a big deal either. Where the discrimination comes in is when he says things like it would divide the clubhouse. In other words, if it were up for a vote, Hunter's vote would be no. That, IMO, is discrimination. It's also not very Christian to deny a person who has the ability to do the same job you do, the opportunity to do so.

    Baseball, for those talented enough to be able to play for a living, is a job, nothing more, nothing less. Most of us work with Christians, Muslims, Blacks, Jews and women every day and it has no impact on our ability to accomplish the mission. Unless someone is a criminal, particularly a thief, there shouldn't be any distrust of them in the workplace and therefore no effect on morale. What happens outside the workplace should not impact what takes place in the workplace.

    Speaking of what happens outside the workplace, it always amazes me how pro athletes are so tolerant of wife beaters, drunk drivers and dog killers but would refuse to play with a gay athlete.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasperST View Post
    Also, please explain how 2,000 years of biblical exegesis on homosexuality suddenly needs creativity to see anything wrong with it.
    Seeing it as wrong is one thing. Denying employment because of it is another.

    Additionally, a denial of employment for a religious reason (like that listed above) would also constitute discrimination.

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    And for those who don't know this, Hunter has four babies by four different baby mommas. I guess he skipped that part of the Bible, unless you believe he was married to all four.
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    Sometimes I think life is just a rodeo,
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    But there is a place, sweet as you will ever know,
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ex Army MP View Post
    Nobody is asking for the Bible to change. And saying that a person's lifestyle makes you uncomfortable is not really a big deal either. Where the discrimination comes in is when he says things like it would divide the clubhouse. In other words, if it were up for a vote, Hunter's vote would be no. That, IMO, is discrimination. It's also not very Christian to deny a person who has the ability to do the same job you do, the opportunity to do so.
    Wrong. Having an opinion isn't discrimination. Discrimination is an act. And changing or not changing the Bible isn't the issue either. You are also convieniently omitting the fact that there's a locker room situation involved, not whether a hotdog vendor can be gay or not.
    Baseball, for those talented enough to be able to play for a living, is a job, nothing more, nothing less. Most of us work with Christians, Muslims, Blacks, Jews and women every day and it has no impact on our ability to accomplish the mission. Unless someone is a criminal, particularly a thief, there shouldn't be any distrust of them in the workplace and therefore no effect on morale. What happens outside the workplace should not impact what takes place in the workplace.

    Speaking of what happens outside the workplace, it always amazes me how pro athletes are so tolerant of wife beaters, drunk drivers and dog killers but would refuse to play with a gay athlete.
    I'm amazed that you can't understand why a guy might not want open homosexuality in the workplace if the workplace includes nudity. I'd love to be in a women's locker room too but for some odd reason it isn't allowed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ex Army MP View Post
    And for those who don't know this, Hunter has four babies by four different baby mommas. I guess he skipped that part of the Bible, unless you believe he was married to all four.
    How is that relevant? You can't have an opinion on homosexuality if you've had kid's out of wedlock?

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    Quote Originally Posted by moparfan View Post
    "For me, as a Christian … I will be uncomfortable because in all my teachings and all my learning, biblically, it's not right," he says. "It will be difficult and uncomfortable."
    This quote sounds pretty typical for most situations where so called 'Christians' choose to ignore the most basic teachings of their religion when it comes to do with anything they don't personally like.

    Romans 15:5-7:
    May the God of endurance and encouragement grant you to live in such harmony with one another, in accord with Christ Jesus, that together you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore welcome one another as Christ has welcomed you, for the glory of God.


    Quote Originally Posted by JasperST View Post
    How is that relevant? You can't have an opinion on homosexuality if you've had kid's out of wedlock?
    It's relevant because he's trying to claim the holier-than-thou-ness of Christianity. Instead of just saying "It makes me uncomfortable and I wouldn't like it." he resorts to using religion as a shield.
    Last edited by LINY; 12-31-2012 at 01:58 PM.

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    Hunter is no saint....as Ex Army MP pointed out above. But I didn't care for the tone of this article.

    It seems that if you are of the belief that homosexuality is a sinful lifestyle, the media/Hollywood claim you are a bigot and a religous nut.

    Hunter, like so many other Christians, has his own feelings on what the bible says. IF Hunter is hateful torwards gay people, that is a problem -- showing hate is wrong and not Chirst-like. But if Hunter simply disagrees with the homoseuxal lifestyle, I don't see any problem.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasperST View Post
    How is that relevant? You can't have an opinion on homosexuality if you've had kid's out of wedlock?
    LINY answered this pretty well. His opinion had nothing to do with showers, rather, his selective interpretation of the Bible. He made Christianity the issue.
    Sometimes I think life is just a rodeo,
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    A time out of time, for you and no one else

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob2899 View Post
    Hunter is no saint....as Ex Army MP pointed out above. But I didn't care for the tone of this article.

    It seems that if you are of the belief that homosexuality is a sinful lifestyle, the media/Hollywood claim you are a bigot and a religous nut.

    Hunter, like so many other Christians, has his own feelings on what the bible says. IF Hunter is hateful torwards gay people, that is a problem -- showing hate is wrong and not Chirst-like. But if Hunter simply disagrees with the homoseuxal lifestyle, I don't see any problem.
    I am sure many players disagree with wife beating, dog fighting and drunk driving too. But they don't seem to say they would not want to play with someone because of these things.

    Nobody said he couldn't have an opinion. But when you express your opinion, particularly when it's about your desire or willingness to exclude a particular segment of the population, you should expect backlash.
    Sometimes I think life is just a rodeo,
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasperST View Post
    Wrong. Having an opinion isn't discrimination. Discrimination is an act. And changing or not changing the Bible isn't the issue either. You are also convieniently omitting the fact that there's a locker room situation involved, not whether a hotdog vendor can be gay or not.
    I'm amazed that you can't understand why a guy might not want open homosexuality in the workplace if the workplace includes nudity. I'd love to be in a women's locker room too but for some odd reason it isn't allowed.
    So, if this is a valid argument, it applies to the military, the police force, fire departments, professional locker rooms and just about any other occupation where at some point you're expected to share close quarters or showers. You've now successfully excluded gays from a large segment of the workforce. And some corporations have gym and shower facilities for employees to use during their lunch hour. I guess gays can't work their either. And every workplace, at a minimum, has restrooms where people of the same sex use at the same time. Guess gays can't work there either.

    I guess what you're saying is that gays can only work from home or be on welfare.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LINY View Post
    This quote sounds pretty typical for most situations where so called 'Christians' choose to ignore the most basic teachings of their religion when it comes to do with anything they don't personally like.

    Romans 15:5-7:
    May the God of endurance and encouragement grant you to live in such harmony with one another, in accord with Christ Jesus, that together you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore welcome one another as Christ has welcomed you, for the glory of God.




    It's relevant because he's trying to claim the holier-than-thou-ness of Christianity. Instead of just saying "It makes me uncomfortable and I wouldn't like it." he resorts to using religion as a shield.
    No, he's saying what he thinks. How is it holier than thou? I didn't see him claim he was holy, an example or even a good Christian. He's what he wants to be like most folks and you guys are pretending he's Billy Graham or Mother Teresa. The point isn't how religious he is or isn't, he's entitled to his opinion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ex Army MP View Post
    LINY answered this pretty well. His opinion had nothing to do with showers, rather, his selective interpretation of the Bible. He made Christianity the issue.
    No, you did. No Christian is perfect so according to you they shouldn't have an opinion.
    I'm sure the shower/locker room situation is very much on his mind, you want to ignore it and make it about holyness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ex Army MP View Post
    So, if this is a valid argument, it applies to the military, the police force, fire departments, professional locker rooms and just about any other occupation where at some point you're expected to share close quarters or showers. You've now successfully excluded gays from a large segment of the workforce. And some corporations have gym and shower facilities for employees to use during their lunch hour. I guess gays can't work their either. And every workplace, at a minimum, has restrooms where people of the same sex use at the same time. Guess gays can't work there either.

    I guess what you're saying is that gays can only work from home or be on welfare.
    Last I heard, the government doesn't own a baseball team. You constantly argue every point as if a business were publically owned. I don't know about police departments or every gym situation, I suppose you don't have to work out if you don't like the arrangements, but where I was in the military, it was 8 or 10 guys in a shower, no separate stalls you could wear a towel to. I'm glad that gays kept it under wraps, I wouldn't want to be there in today's environment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JasperST View Post
    Last I heard, the government doesn't own a baseball team. You constantly argue every point as if a business were publically owned. I don't know about police departments or every gym situation, I suppose you don't have to work out if you don't like the arrangements, but where I was in the military, it was 8 or 10 guys in a shower, no separate stalls you could wear a towel to. I'm glad that gays kept it under wraps, I wouldn't want to be there in today's environment.
    Not sure if there is a huge distinction between public and private employment when it comes to gays for a number of reasons. For one, the Constitution, which would apply only to public employment, doesn't exactly regard sexual orientation with the same scrutiny as it does with race and religion. Sure they could make an equal protection complaint but it would not be afforded the same level of review.

    Now, Federal and state employment discrimination laws apply to both public and private employment. While Title VII does not include sexual orientation, many states have laws that prohibit discriminating against gays in the workplace. I am actually amazed that you still think that merely because a business is privately operated, it can hire or fail to hire whomever it wants for whatever reason and that it's none of the Federal or State government's business.

    In any event, I don't think this thread was about the legality of players not wanting to play with gays. I think it was more about what a moron and bigot Torii Hunter is.
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    My circle of friends now includes a MLB Umpire...if Hunter thinks he hasn't shared a meal, a bus, a plane, a hotel, and a staudium shower with a gay teammate, his gaydar is in need of serious repair. There's one confirmed drunken, wife-beater on the Tigers (career saved by MLB intervention)...does Hunter embrace him just because he's straight?

    Any pro sports team is concerned with one thing...numbers on the scoreboard. Decisions are made upon what's best for business, and everything else be damned. If Hunter's open Christianity turned off a lot of teammates, he could find himself traded. If there were 80% of a team who were cross-dressing, mincing, boy-chasing Village People wannabes (picture the NY Mets) but had themselves a win-loss recored of epic proportion (obviously NOT the Mets), they might feel threatened by a Mormon kid from Salt Lake City and convince management to send him to the minors, or trade him outright.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kieth M. View Post
    My circle of friends now includes a MLB Umpire...if Hunter thinks he hasn't shared a meal, a bus, a plane, a hotel, and a staudium shower with a gay teammate, his gaydar is in need of serious repair. There's one confirmed drunken, wife-beater on the Tigers (career saved by MLB intervention)...does Hunter embrace him just because he's straight?

    Any pro sports team is concerned with one thing...numbers on the scoreboard. Decisions are made upon what's best for business, and everything else be damned. If Hunter's open Christianity turned off a lot of teammates, he could find himself traded. If there were 80% of a team who were cross-dressing, mincing, boy-chasing Village People wannabes (picture the NY Mets) but had themselves a win-loss recored of epic proportion (obviously NOT the Mets), they might feel threatened by a Mormon kid from Salt Lake City and convince management to send him to the minors, or trade him outright.
    Hey, don't be dissing the Mets. They just traded their Dickey to Toronto but got a huge package in return.
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    :^^^We're talking about gays and you said "huge package" heh-heh-heh!^^^

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    Quote Originally Posted by JasperST View Post
    My thoughts are that some people are as clueless as humanly possible. Where's the discrimination? How it disrimination to say it would be tough to deal with open homosexuality on the team? Have you ever been in a locker room? They probably don't have seperate suites. I can tell you that being in close military quarters it would not have gone over well so I can sympathize with him.

    Also, please explain how 2,000 years of biblical exegesis on homosexuality suddenly needs creativity to see anything wrong with it.
    nope never been in a locker room and having to get undressed around other guys nope never happened playing football, in the academy or now at work or even at the gym nope never happened. I have family and some friends that are gay do I as a Christian man turn my back to them no. Having talking with them most gay guys would not cross the line. Its sad that it sounds like you have the same feelings as Hunter. I'm sure you have been in a locker room with a gay guy and never have know it. No they are not going to drop the soap in front of you or stand behind you. I guess it just shows your mentality as well.

    Do I agree with a persons sexual orientation no. But should I shun him from doing a job or refuse to break bread with them. No. Its odd that we had the Civil Rights movement in the country yet some still feel the need to segregate. I guess we should put up signs that say "Straights Only" above locker rooms.

    or better yet do away with all locker rooms and have everyone share like in Robocop.
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    Quote Originally Posted by moparfan View Post
    nope never been in a locker room and having to get undressed around other guys nope never happened playing football, in the academy or now at work or even at the gym nope never happened.
    Even in high school, we did. It was that way at every gym I've been to as well. That was probably his experience as well.
    I have family and some friends that are gay do I as a Christian man turn my back to them no. Having talking with them most gay guys would not cross the line. Its sad that it sounds like you have the same feelings as Hunter. I'm sure you have been in a locker room with a gay guy and never have know it. No they are not going to drop the soap in front of you or stand behind you. I guess it just shows your mentality as well.
    I guess you can't read. The issue was the openness of it, I said I was glad it wasn't accepted then. I hope it does show my mentality, that's why I wrote the words.
    Do I agree with a persons sexual orientation no. But should I shun him from doing a job or refuse to break bread with them. No. Its odd that we had the Civil Rights movement in the country yet some still feel the need to segregate. I guess we should put up signs that say "Straights Only" above locker rooms.

    or better yet do away with all locker rooms and have everyone share like in Robocop.
    As far as I know, homosexuality isn't a race. The issue isn't like sharing space with a black, white or asian man so I have to reject your propaganda for what it is.

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    Nope no propaganda just stating how its funny that a black guys is saying that he would not share a locker with a gay teammate. Kinda sounds like the 40's when whites said that about blacks.

    And although sexual orientation is not a protected class federal it is a state level for the following:
    •California
    •Colorado
    •Connecticut
    •Hawaii
    •Illinois
    •Maine
    •Maryland
    •Massachusetts
    •Minnesota
    •New Hampshire
    •New Jersey
    •New Mexico
    •New York
    •Rhode Island
    •Vermont
    •Washington
    •Wisconsin

    It just proves to show that we as a society we have not gone that far. Are there issues with sexual orientation that I do not agree with, sure. One is the whole marriage and how they qualify for medical insurance on another’s. Stuff like that but when it comes to playing sports or doing a job and having to share a locker room who cares. Be confident in yourself and who cares unless you are a peter gazer.
    I'd rather be judged by 12 rather carried by 6.

    It should be noted that any and all post that are made or based on my own thought and opinions.

  25. #25
    Bigfoot Country
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    Quote Originally Posted by moparfan View Post
    Nope no propaganda just stating how its funny that a black guys is saying that he would not share a locker with a gay teammate. Kinda sounds like the 40's when whites said that about blacks.

    And although sexual orientation is not a protected class federal it is a state level for the following:

    It just proves to show that we as a society we have not gone that far. Are there issues with sexual orientation that I do not agree with, sure. One is the whole marriage and how they qualify for medical insurance on another’s. Stuff like that but when it comes to playing sports or doing a job and having to share a locker room who cares. Be confident in yourself and who cares unless you are a peter gazer.
    Like I said, it isn't a racial issue, funny how ikt's being propaganized as one. There are a lot of state laws I don't agree with but I do agree a gay person shouldn't be discriminated aganst for a public sector job because they pay taxes and the taxes pay for the position.

    You haven't shown where any gays were discriminated against by one man stating his opinion. Sounds more like the type of accusation to shut people up.

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