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Thread: Arming Teachers. My perspective. What's yours?

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    Arming Teachers. My perspective. What's yours?

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    If they have sufficient training with said weapon then yes. Either that or armed security patrols both inside and out.
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    Train the teachers that want to carry and let them. Let CCW holders carry everywhere. These idiots need to start realizing that the bad guys don't turn around and leave when they see the "No guns allowed signs." All it does is tell these cowards there is a herd of sheep to slaughter and no sheep dogs are gonna be there to stop them.
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    Right now I am concerned with just keeping what gun rights we have. That idea is a Led Zeplin.. those that would carry would be run out by those that abhor guns. There is no way that the rabid anti-gun lobby would allow it to happen.
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    I am supportive of removing gun free zones from schools. Just the thought that there might be a gun is a deterrant. If the teachers/staff and adult students want to carry guns then so be it.
    I would also support an armed community watch where parents volunteer for school days and school functions.
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    Nearly every school in my County has DARE/School Resource Officers assigned. That's pretty much the norm.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenW. View Post
    Nearly every school in my County has DARE/School Resource Officers assigned. That's pretty much the norm.
    But they're usually at the high school and not the elementary school.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rush817 View Post
    But they're usually at the high school and not the elementary school.
    The SRO is usually in the high school, DARE starts in the 5th grade (our intermediate school). I was re-assigned yesterday from the road to the schools (elementary and high schools) for an unspecified term. I will probably be there until the end of the school year or until we develop another plan.
    Quote Originally Posted by ERT11 View Post
    Train the teachers that want to carry and let them. Let CCW holders carry everywhere. These idiots need to start realizing that the bad guys don't turn around and leave when they see the "No guns allowed signs." All it does is tell these cowards there is a herd of sheep to slaughter and no sheep dogs are gonna be there to stop them.
    When I was flying armed (prisoner transfers, etc.) once I checked in, security staff always introduced me to the pilot and he got a copy of my slip. On three or four occasions, the pilot introduced to me, one of his crew (usually co-pilot, once a senior flight attendant) and informed me that they were also armed. This augmented the air-marshal who may or may not be on the flight (I only flew once with a marshal on board).

    IMHO, this same principle can work by arming teachers and support staff. These people have already had a thorough (fingerprints, etc.) background investigation done. Train them, arm them, beef up the response plan to account for this, pull those signs down and there are sheep-dogs to watch the sheep.

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    You can't arm people who don't want to be armed, and the majority of teachers don't want to be armed.

    A series of designated entry points (including an exterior first contact point something like a sally port) staffed by armed security is needed. But this costs money, and no one will spend the money.
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    I like the idea of protecting the schools. But I think the teachers are the wrong people to do it.

    First, the teachers need to be teaching. Any time you have a gun, there's a whole lot of other things you need to think about. Who is nearby and can reach for the gun, etc. It will take the teacher's mind off of "OK how can I explain this math problem to Jimmy" because she'll be thinking, "I can't lean over Jimmy's desk to help him because then my gun will be just inches away from him."

    Second, arming teachers is a lot like arming prison guards. Teachers are constantly surrounded and outnumbered by kids. They have to break up fights regularly. How long before a teacher fires a warning shot or a kid grabs a teacher's gun?

    Third, Just Joe is correct when he pointed out that most teachers don't want to be armed. I know several teachers and none of them would ever consider carrying at school...even the guy who is a gun nut and drives between schools in the ghetto. Carrying a gun that you won't use is even worse than not carrying at all.

    A small "gun free zone" can work...as long as it is heavily protected by armed guards. Like Just Joe said, if anything the schools should be fortified with guards who have nothing else to do all day except keep the place safe.
    Last edited by Fëanor; 12-18-2012 at 09:55 AM.

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    So each room has a single locker in it with a combination and inside is a shotgun. In case of an incident each teacher has a choice to get the shotgun or be a victim. Just like break glass in case of a fire, they learn to use the extinguisher they can learn to use a shotgun.
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    I can only imagine my old middle school teachers running around with tac gear in a six man stack.

    On a serious note, I can see an ECP of sorts working on a day to day basis but this could also put stress on kids and staff. If a teacher wishes to be armed I dont see why not, I know a couple teachers that came from a military or LE background. My favorite history teacher in middle school was a Ranger.

    Still, more emphasis needs to be placed on mental health screenings for teenagers in high school or middle school. They already make shots mandatory in most schools, so why not just add an extra step.
    Last edited by Ramrod711; 12-18-2012 at 11:17 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by just joe View Post
    You can't arm people who don't want to be armed, and the majority of teachers don't want to be armed.

    A series of designated entry points (including an exterior first contact point something like a sally port) staffed by armed security is needed. But this costs money, and no one will spend the money.
    You are 100% correct Joe; arming someone who doesn't want to be armed would be a mistake. It would be ineffective and would serve no purpose. That having been said, to generalize and believe that all teachers are liberals and supportive of gun control is inaccurate. Since Columbine, educators have been shaken into reality and I personally know six or seven teachers who are carrying concealed right now.

    The chosen ones would probably need tenure; enough time behind the chalk-board for administration to know they aren't going to flake out themselves. They would have to be willing and capable; no room for someone who can't or won't take a shot if need be. Most importantly, they would have to be trained and equipped.

    I had a meeting with school administration this morning regarding controlled-access, metal-detectors, cameras and such. Any of these options will have an initial cost for equipment and a continued expense for manpower. The teachers are already in place, getting paid, and work hallway details anyway. Any other options will, as you stated, cost money that nobody wants to spend.

    This isn't THE solution, but it is part of A solution. Your thoughts?!?!

    As I left my meeting, I removed rocks that were propping two exterior doors open and padlocked the ramp door that leads to the boiler room. So much for controlled-access.

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    I dont think it would work.

    You need to have a certain mindset to be able to confront a threat and stop the threat. Most teachers do not have this mindset and would not be able to pull the trigger.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tmg View Post
    I dont think it would work.

    You need to have a certain mindset to be able to confront a threat and stop the threat. Most teachers do not have this mindset and would not be able to pull the trigger.
    Again, this is a generalization, a stereotype and for the most part I agree.

    Most teachers do not have the required mindset; a few teachers do. Most cops have what it takes; a few do not, we really never know until it gets sticky. In the past, I've worked with officers who could not have passed a psychological and were useless for backup. I know a 70 year old farmer (he is a combat vet) and I would put him up against any SWAT guy.

    I would rather have ten armed, trained teachers in a schoolhouse if something went down. If one of them mustered the courage to do what needs to be done, game over; cops come in secure the scene and write a report.

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    Slam, you know that even if you had a teacher that was a former Special Forces, SWAT, or Navy Seal in a school, that any school district north of I-80 isn't going to let them be armed, much less ever having a locker on school premises with a long gun available to staff. What I see, at least for the near future, is a bunch of P/T gigs for O/D P/O's to sit behind a desk at the front door to a school. Although, we know this will peter out as the Ct. shootings get farther in the rear view mirror.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiTownDet View Post
    Slam, you know that even if you had a teacher that was a former Special Forces, SWAT, or Navy Seal in a school, that any school district north of I-80 isn't going to let them be armed, much less ever having a locker on school premises with a long gun available to staff. What I see, at least for the near future, is a bunch of P/T gigs for O/D P/O's to sit behind a desk at the front door to a school. Although, we know this will peter out as the Ct. shootings get farther in the rear view mirror.
    You are correct; the mindset there (politicians) would never allow it. I have been south of I-80 (I-72 for that matter) for 19 years, and it is a different climate here.

    You also nailed the other end of this. After the Pennsylvania (Amish) school shooting, I got two years of O/D, P/T, wandering the halls of an intermediate school. I was hired and paid by the school district, worked plain-clothes, armed security.

    I ate my lunch in the school cafeteria, participated in PE every chance I got, and made a few bucks. Spring semester of 2008, they decided the schools are safe again and discontinued using us. The school started the program again yesterday.


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    Quote Originally Posted by just joe View Post
    You can't arm people who don't want to be armed, and the majority of teachers don't want to be armed.

    A series of designated entry points (including an exterior first contact point something like a sally port) staffed by armed security is needed. But this costs money, and no one will spend the money.
    Who says we have to pay these people or spend more money then the schools are already spending? How many of you on this forum wouldn't volunteer one day out of your week to patrol your kids school, armed, and in plain clothes, without pay? I promise you if I had a kid and my kids school approached me and asked if I'd patrol the school on a day off or two I would jump at the chance. How about you retired guys? Would you patrol the hallways for free if it meant being there in case an armed threat presented itself?

    So I ask, why can't we get off duty or retired police/military personal to volunteer their time to patrol these schools? These already pre qualified people are out there. They exist, so why can't we use them? Are people really that selfish and petty that they would not volunteer just one or two days out of there lives to protect the school in their area?

    Edited: Looks like some guys beat me to the punch.
    Last edited by -Erik-; 12-18-2012 at 02:13 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by -Erik- View Post
    So I ask, why can't we get off duty or retired police/military personal to volunteer their time to patrol these schools? These already pre qualified people are out there. They exist, so why can't we use them? Are people really that selfish and petty that they would not volunteer just one or two days out of there lives to protect the school in their area?
    I don't see this working.

    1. I can see a huge liability with this.

    2. Not every school has kids with Police parents.

    3. Do you really want to do this at the very rough schools?

    4. This would be a major time commitment that would put a burden on the volunteers.
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    1. I can see a huge liability with this.
    Is the liability really that much bigger then arming the teachers themselves?

    3. Do you really want to do this at the very rough schools?
    In all honesty does this kind of thing really ever happen at the rough schools? I am outside of Detroit and Flint is to the north and I don't hear about shootings happening at the schools. Now at bus stops, that is a different story.
    2. Not every school has kids with Police parents.

    4. This would be a major time commitment that would put a burden on the volunteers.
    I am hopeful that we can find some kind of sizable group of volunteers to help out. I am not saying the idea is perfect, it does have obstacles, but something is better then nothing. A combination of armed teachers and volunteers I think is a good plan. Not all schools will have teachers who will want to carry a gun so this is where volunteers could fall into place.
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    I've been a DARE / School Resource Officer for alittle over 5 years now. I doubt there is a teacher, at least where I work, that would pull the trigger if they were armed. Teachers are not trained like us, nor do they have the mind set to kill someone. This is my personal observation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goautl View Post
    Teachers are not trained like us, nor do they have the mind set to kill someone.
    Most teachers aren't wired like us, there are many who are. I taught at a school in Elgin about 25 years ago. Many of the faculty were vets, one a former (LOD retired) deputy sheriff. Some cops couldn't / wouldn't pull the trigger; if we put them in the schools, it wouldn't help much either.


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    I do now want anyone armed who does not take it seriously.

    I do think the "lock box" is an excellent idea. We have off-duty officers in our schools in my jurisdiction. I don't do it because I don't need the cash and I don't play well with juveniles with attitudes.

    The issue is you can't harden a school enough to prevent an armed attacker from entering. There has to be the ability to provide an armed response. It doesn't matter if it's from LE, Security or Civilians. A bullet in the badguy is the only sure way to solve the problem. If there had been one armed good guy in that elementary school this would have gone vastly different.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog F4i View Post
    The issue is you can't harden a school enough to prevent an armed attacker from entering. There has to be the ability to provide an armed response. It doesn't matter if it's from LE, Security or Civilians. A bullet in the badguy is the only sure way to solve the problem. If there had been one armed good guy in that elementary school this would have gone vastly different.
    Well said.


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    I don't think there should be any restriction to where a concealed handgun license holder may carry a weapon. I think arming volunteer teachers in a manner akin to the federal flight deck officers program is a great idea. I was a teacher briefly (3 semesters) and would loved to have been armed for this very reason. Frankly, I think having to buy from a FFL holder is ridiculous too, but at least I can have a gun now. In five years, we'll probably be as impotent as bees without stingers.

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