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Thread: Hospital Staff on Active Shooter Scene

  1. #1
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    Hospital Staff on Active Shooter Scene

    Has anyone heard of anything like this? Seems I heard something about Local ER's sending staff with Police/Fire/EMS to assist in the medical care in a "Safe Zone" of active shooters like in CT. I thought I heard something in the CT dispatch recording of a local hospital sending RN's with Police escorts to a safezone to help with the triage, treatment, and evacuation of those wounded? What are your thoughts on this? Good idea, bad idea, or too much confusion on the scene to tell?

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    Forum Member GIOSTORMUSNRET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XD_Shooter View Post
    Has anyone heard of anything like this? Seems I heard something about Local ER's sending staff with Police/Fire/EMS to assist in the medical care in a "Safe Zone" of active shooters like in CT. I thought I heard something in the CT dispatch recording of a local hospital sending RN's with Police escorts to a safezone to help with the triage, treatment, and evacuation of those wounded? What are your thoughts on this? Good idea, bad idea, or too much confusion on the scene to tell?
    Not how we train. We train to move to the active shooter to eliminate the threat, no one goes with us except police officers. Wounded are left where they are and we move to the threat to stop it. Wounded can be triaged after the active shooter is stopped. This training is based on Columbine. The active shooters were able to kill more people because police and swat were busy setting up a perimeter before going in. Lesson learned is go after the active shooter/s, the officers arriving on scene later can set the perimeter.

    This is also the reason no officers are allowed to off duty carry on VA property and we escort on duty officers doing official business. No need for a blue on blue incident when we are reacting to an active shooter.
    Last edited by GIOSTORMUSNRET; 12-15-2012 at 04:54 AM.
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    Forum Member HI629's Avatar
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    ^^^You do realize that you posted in an "open" area? Possible OPSEC issues......
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    I speaking more on the part of local hospitals having staff in a designated staging area to assist EMS with the traige and treatment of wounded until they can be moved to an Emergency room or trauma center. With the lack of resources available (IE: Ambulances) It seems having providers that can utilize a higher treatment of care would be beneficial. Of course as LE, our concerns are different then EMS... this is probably better suited for an EMS board

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    Gimme Yo Acorns, Sucka! QuietPro's Avatar
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    I would say it's a good idea; as long as the medical support staff remain in the staging area and don't attempt to enter the active scene until it's been cleared of threats and secured by L.E......

    I would also welcome this; considering that trying to get some of the lazy-arsed nurses in my hospital to budge from their duty station is as hard as trying to pull out a good tooth with a pair of pliers....
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    It's Complicated Iowa #1603's Avatar
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    Most metropolitan areas have "disaster plans" which often include advance (on scene ) triage areas staffed by multi-discipline health care providers.

    These written (and often practiced) plans can (and are) modified for any mass casualty incident.


    Read up on the United 232 (1989 Sioux City Iowa) crash. The medical/EMS/Fire response to that disaster became the model for mass casualty response.




    If you watch the videos of the Newtown scene, you will see two areas (one in the parking lot of the School and one in the parking lot of the fire station) where colored tarps were laid out along with folding chairs and "tool boxes"-------both were next to fire trucks/ ambulance parking

    Those areas were triage areas that could be manned by either EMS or medical personel and were "away" from the active scene. NOTE: The area at the school parking lot was not set up until after the building was cleared.
    Last edited by Iowa #1603; 12-15-2012 at 09:38 AM.

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    Forum Member GIOSTORMUSNRET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HI629 View Post
    ^^^You do realize that you posted in an "open" area? Possible OPSEC issues......
    What opsec. What military does may be secret, what we (VA Police) do isn't. We're going to start a training with the staff on what to do in a active shooter scenario. Hide, fight, run video and have us do a active shooter scenario with the staff involved just so they know what to expect when such a situation happens. Of course we won't be using simunition or blanks so we don't make a staff member crap themself, but we will do it as realistic as possible.
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    College Student Jacob2899's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GIOSTORMUSNRET View Post
    Not how we train. We train to move to the active shooter to eliminate the threat, no one goes with us except police officers. Wounded are left where they are and we move to the threat to stop it. Wounded can be triaged after the active shooter is stopped. This training is based on Columbine. The active shooters were able to kill more people because police and swat were busy setting up a perimeter before going in. Lesson learned is go after the active shooter/s, the officers arriving on scene later can set the perimeter.
    I know somebody who used to work at a college university. The university staff met with a SWAT member to talk about active-shooter situations. The guy pretty much told the staff exactly what you said.....the first police team in is gonna be looking for the shooter. If you're injured or hiding, call out but don't demand to be evacuated right away.....the shooter must be located and the threat neutralized before evacs can begin.

    So this isn't sensitiveve tactical information at all. In my opinion, it's important that civilians and LE are on the same page, so that each will have an idea of what the other is doing during an active-shooter situation.
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  9. #9
    Forum Member ArkansasFan24's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XD_Shooter View Post
    I speaking more on the part of local hospitals having staff in a designated staging area to assist EMS with the traige and treatment of wounded until they can be moved to an Emergency room or trauma center. With the lack of resources available (IE: Ambulances) It seems having providers that can utilize a higher treatment of care would be beneficial. Of course as LE, our concerns are different then EMS... this is probably better suited for an EMS board
    I was a paramedic before spending a good number of years as a police officer. I'm now a part-time police officer and a full-time registered nurse. (Actually, I only became a RN so that I could get my master's, which I'm working on now, and become a psychiatric and mental health nurse practitioner, but that's beside the point.)

    I know a lot of RNs that would like to help out in that situation, and I know many more that would turn it into a full blown cluster. There's nothing wrong with having RNs and medics help each other out, but usually when they interact there's a problem with the old "too many chiefs, not enough indians" ordeal. Paramedics, as a whole, are better suited for both field work and the initial treatment of trauma. Nurses, as a whole, are better suited for in hospital "care" and secondary treatment. The training programs compliment each other, but unless the RN was experienced in trauma care they'd be about useless.

    From a law enforcement standpoint, in an active shooter scenario the idea is to neutralize the shooter. At that point, the victims are sadly an after thought in terms of tactics, but they have to be to prevent more victimization.

    If I personally were in this scenario, I'd want to be on the inside looking for the shooter or taking up some other police role. Policing is more natural to me than healthcare, lol.

  10. #10
    Forum Member Langford PR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iowa #1603 View Post
    Most metropolitan areas have "disaster plans" which often include advance (on scene ) triage areas staffed by multi-discipline health care providers.

    These written (and often practiced) plans can (and are) modified for any mass casualty incident.


    Read up on the United 232 (1989 Sioux City Iowa) crash. The medical/EMS/Fire response to that disaster became the model for mass casualty response.




    If you watch the videos of the Newtown scene, you will see two areas (one in the parking lot of the School and one in the parking lot of the fire station) where colored tarps were laid out along with folding chairs and "tool boxes"-------both were next to fire trucks/ ambulance parking

    Those areas were triage areas that could be manned by either EMS or medical personel and were "away" from the active scene. NOTE: The area at the school parking lot was not set up until after the building was cleared.
    -This is spot on IOWA#1603.
    -Standard NIMS/ICS plans contain an triage area near the IC to handle mass casualty. Nothing new in this.
    -During several of our active-shooter multi-agency trainings we would even test out using 'volunteer' paramedics as part of the later (not initial) entry teams. There was plenty of pros and cons to the idea of these 'medics' going in. It was never fully worked out by the time I retired but I know its being discussed.
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  11. #11
    Max Rockatansky Maverick1701's Avatar
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    We have a similar plan in place but not for active shooter situations...if we get a large accident ie schoolbus or something along those lines we have a big chest of trauma supplies stationed at the local dr office. We also have an agreement (with that dr office) that if/when something like this happens, I (or another deputy) can stop by, tell everyone to load up in my patrol unit (expedition), grab the supply trunk and haul everyone (and all the supplies) to the scene.

    Now keep in mind we are a very small county and very remote. Our EMS keeps a rotation to staff one ambulance guaranteed (maybe two if everyone is town) and the next closest ambulance is 30-40 mins away in the next town over. If we ever have to put this plan into effect we can now free up our paramedics to handle/xport the more severe kiddos/people while the nurses/nurse practitioners handle the less severe cases.
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    Series 0083 DCPSDcop's Avatar
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    Well it doesn't necessarily have to be an Active Shooter scene. However, generally, each region would have a Hospital with a designated "Go Team" that could respond out to a critical incident.

    However the incidents that they would generally be called to would be something more along the lines of a construction worker with a leg crushed and pinned between 100 tons of steel. The "Go Team" would then come in and perform a field amputation (something that EMS personnel wouldn't be able to do) and remove the construction worker, thereby possibly saving his life.

    As far as sending "hospital personnel" out to a major incident scene... that would be useless. They are hospital personnel and are therefore trained to work in a hospital setting. EMS personnel are trained to work in the field (and in some areas of the country are Hospital Employees) and handle emergency medical care in the field. In a major incident scene, patients would be triaged and transported to various hospitals in the region, based upon their color code.

  13. #13
    Series 0083 DCPSDcop's Avatar
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    And if you were talking about sending medical personnel into the "Hot Zone" that would be a big no; unless your agency is equipped with Tactical Medics, who are specifically trained and equipped to deal with such situations.

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    Forum Member TNPSO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GIOSTORMUSNRET View Post
    Of course we won't be using simunition or blanks so we don't make a staff member crap themself, but we will do it as realistic as possible.
    If the staff members know it's a drill I don't see why you wouldn't use SIMS...that is the only way to do it as realistic as possible.

    It's sad the amount of LEO's that have never had SIMS training...We can run around with "red guns" yelling bang bang all day....it gets a lot more "real" when you bring powder charged projectiles into play.

    Either way though, it's great that your agency is doing SOMETHING...I still think there are a lot that won't.
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    Molon Labe LA DEP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TNPSO View Post
    If the staff members know it's a drill I don't see why you wouldn't use SIMS...that is the only way to do it as realistic as possible.

    It's sad the amount of LEO's that have never had SIMS training...We can run around with "red guns" yelling bang bang all day....it gets a lot more "real" when you bring powder charged projectiles into play.

    Either way though, it's great that your agency is doing SOMETHING...I still think there are a lot that won't.
    Sims rounds add a whole other level to 'force on force' training....esp. when you get hit in the nut sack, neck line, or knuckles ect....not that I would EVER aim for such areas while acting as a 'bad guy' role player or anything.....
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    Quote Originally Posted by LA DEP View Post
    Sims rounds add a whole other level to 'force on force' training....esp. when you get hit in the nut sack, neck line, or knuckles ect....not that I would EVER aim for such areas while acting as a 'bad guy' role player or anything.....
    Been there....Done that...Hurts like HELL. Especially if the Range Officer wants to mess with you because you are "Just a Reserve"!!!!

    Got shot in the butt once while advancing up a stairway (by the Range Officer)
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    I am pretty sure that this happens quite often. Police officers are not medics, even though they do take First Aid classes. Patients have to be transported properly, and there is most likely no other way to do it.

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