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Thread: What patrol rifle round does your agency use?

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    The Poo Magnet
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    Question What patrol rifle round does your agency use?

    This will be for the .223 Remington round. We are a small department and I'm trying to get feedback on a good round(s).

    The Chief is considering implementing patrol rifles. (personally owned)

    If this is not a public topic to openly post, please feel free to PM me.

    Thanks
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    Federal tactical t3 bonded 62g
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    Remington 55 grain SP. It has worked well for us for years.

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    Hornady TAP 55 JHP

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    Get something that is bonded for barrier pentration.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SCSU74 View Post
    Federal tactical t3 bonded 62g
    ^^^^^^This is a really good round^^^^^^.
    I also carry Hornady V-Max in the 55 g.

    Last edited by slamdunc; 11-17-2012 at 12:11 PM.

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    The Poo Magnet
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    Does the 55g group the same as the 62g at say, 100 yards? May sound like a stupid question, but if im spending dinero on 55g to true it in, I would like to know from experience if both produce almost equal results. Thanks folks!
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    Hornaday TAP 62 grain. We use the 62 grain because it is the closest to the FMJ rounds we practice with and have our sights set with.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FiVo3 View Post
    Does the 55g group the same as the 62g at say, 100 yards? May sound like a stupid question, but if im spending dinero on 55g to true it in, I would like to know from experience if both produce almost equal results. Thanks folks!
    Depends on the twist rate of the rifle you're shooting it out of... Higher twist rates do better with lighter bullets. Is true it in the same as zero? We zero with our duty ammo and train with xm193 (55g). Groups well enough inside of 50 yds.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SCSU74 View Post
    Depends on the twist rate of the rifle you're shooting it out of... Higher twist rates do better with lighter bullets. Is true it in the same as zero? We zero with our duty ammo and train with xm193 (55g). Groups well enough inside of 50 yds.
    Yes. True in=zero. I've never been in military, so the terms I am used to may differ.

    By the way, I have a S&W M&P15 with 1/8 twist, 20in. barrel. Im expecting a maximum effective rage of 100 yards in our jurisdiction, although I know the .223 round is capable of much more. Our qualifying course of fire is a maximum of 100 yds. Our department has had a "no rifles" SOP since its existence. The Chief is very pro-rifle and is most likely going to change our SOP, only after we experiment with the following:
    -accuracy/reliability/cost
    -benefit to the community (what the town council expects or is concerned about)
    -benefit to neighboring agencies during mutual aid requests
    -benefit of the officers that carry a rifle
    -other things to consider

    Will the SOP change soon? No. But we have to take baby steps before we can fully run with it.

    I know that since the .223 is a small diameter round, projectile weight could potentially factor in with accuracy. I appreciate all the information given so far!
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    Quote Originally Posted by FiVo3 View Post
    The Chief is very pro-rifle and is most likely going to change our SOP, only after we experiment with the following:
    -accuracy/reliability/cost
    -benefit to the community (what the town council expects or is concerned about)
    -benefit to neighboring agencies during mutual aid requests
    -benefit of the officers that carry a rifle
    -other things to consider

    Will the SOP change soon? No. But we have to take baby steps before we can fully run with it.
    If a chief wants all those answered before he lets you have them, I probably wouldn't get my hopes up..
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    1/8 does well with both 55g/62g. The reason I only mention those weights is the surplus military ammo that most pd's use to train come in those (xm193:m855). I have a 1/7 that does better with 62g. My advice would be to shoot both and see what does better in your rifle. Our qual course max's at 100 yds as well. You won't see anything noticeable as far as accuracy inside of 50. Mine only acts up with 55g at 75+. It's not the sport model right?
    Last edited by SCSU74; 11-18-2012 at 05:30 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SCSU74 View Post
    1/8 does well with both 55g/62g. The reason I only mention those weights is the surplus military ammo that most pd's use to train come in those (xm193:m855). I have a 1/7 that does better with 62g. My advice would be to shoot both and see what does better in your rifle. Our qual course max's at 100 yds as well. You won't see anything noticeable as far as accuracy inside of 50. Mine only acts up with 55g at 75+. It's not the sport model right?
    Yes, it is the sport model, I zeroed the scope in today at 25 yards. I was putting three rounds in the same hole. I still need to work on it a bit to get it dead center at 100 yards. There was quite a bit of a cross wind today so I know it will be easier to get MOA to sub-MOA at 100 yards.
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    I'd be careful with that model if you don't upgrade it to at least have a dust cover. That is a bare bones rifle the I would be hesitant to carry on duty
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    The best loads to use, by my own interpretation based on order of consistency and capability (supported by FBI Ballistic Research data on-hand) would be as follows:

    Federal Tactical Bonded JSP 55gr or 62gr (LE223T1/T3, XM556FBIT3)
    Federal Tactical TRU 55gr Sierra Game King BTHP (LE223E)
    Federal Tactical TRU 55gr Nosler Ballistic Tip (LE223F)
    Federal Tactical TRU 64gr Hi-Shok SP (LE223L)
    Speer Gold Dot 55gr or 64gr JSP
    Hornady 62gr TAP Barrier JSP
    Winchester Bonded 64gr Solid Base JSP (Q3313/RA556B)
    Remington Premier Core-Lokt Ultra Bonded (CLUB) 62gr PSP
    Black Hills Ammunition 50gr TSX (Proprietary bullet design by Barnes for Black Hills)
    ASYM 70gr TSX
    Any other Copper Solid HP bullet (Barnes TSX, CorBon DPX [which is a TSX])
    Any 75gr or 77gr BTHP/OTM


    The Federal Tactical 62gr Bonded JSP XM556FBIT3 is an actual 5.56mm spec cartridge, as opposed to the LE223T1 & T3 loads, which are .223 spec. The 5.56 is higher pressure with better performance, and was chosen as the FBI load. All three Federal Tactical Bonded loads are phenomenal, though.
    The Black Hills 50gr TSX is also a 5.56 spec, as is the SSA 64gr. You can also get 77gr BTHP loads in 5.56 from Black Hills, SSA and other companies.

    I personally do not like Urban loads, but the above-mentioned Federal Tactical TRU is by far the best stuff on the market in that arena. The other TRU loads are not optimal, and neither are any of the Hornady TAP Urban loads.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FiVo3 View Post
    Yes, it is the sport model, I zeroed the scope in today at 25 yards. I was putting three rounds in the same hole. I still need to work on it a bit to get it dead center at 100 yards. There was quite a bit of a cross wind today so I know it will be easier to get MOA to sub-MOA at 100 yards.
    For the intended purpose of most patrol rifle's out there you will likely be better served picking a high quality, well constructed round even if it groups 2.5 MOA than a lightly constructed gopher killer that shoots .5 MOA. Fortunatly the AR-15 is a very accurate platform and most of the high quality LE loads will group just fine as long as you don't get crazy mismatched rates of twist vs. projectile weights.
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    I would also recommend that if you're exploring optional zeroes, LEOs should really only be using 50yd or 100yd zeroes. 25yd is not a very good zero to have, as your point blank range (PBR) is not that far. With 50yd and 100yd zeroes, you have a PBR out to 200-225yds with most .223/5.56 ammunition.
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    What are your thoughts on the 36 yd zero, Reedo?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitthegym View Post
    What are your thoughts on the 36 yd zero, Reedo?
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    He's serious...google 36yd/300yd zero.

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    The 36m/300m zero is worthless for LE use. It's an infantry zero designed for long range open-sights marksmanship in conjunction with the A2 rear sight drum. Many special operations groups are actually moving away from that zero to a 50yd (or meter?) zero to run with RDS systems.

    When you calculate the ballistic trajectory of that zero, you have PBR out to about 75m, then the bullet climbs up to 7.1" above POA at 175m, then drops back down into the PBR at 250m and leaves out the bottom of PBR at about 325-350m. If you alter that to yds, 175yds is the top of your trajectory at about 5.3" over POA, then comes back down. This is all based on M855 out of a 14.5" barrel.
    Compare that to 50yd or 100yd zero, and you do not need to do any hold-overs or hold-unders until you hit 200+yds. Inside that range, POA=POI. The only exception being holding for offset at CQB range.
    It's really more about efficiency and ease of use. The goal is to make the weapon as idiot-proof as possible for your average patrol officer (because if they can jack it up, they will), and using a 50yd or 100yd zero does that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reedo View Post
    The 36m/300m zero is worthless for LE use. It's an infantry zero designed for long range open-sights marksmanship in conjunction with the A2 rear sight drum. Many special operations groups are actually moving away from that zero to a 50yd (or meter?) zero to run with RDS systems.

    When you calculate the ballistic trajectory of that zero, you have PBR out to about 75m, then the bullet climbs up to 7.1" above POA at 175m, then drops back down into the PBR at 250m and leaves out the bottom of PBR at about 325-350m. If you alter that to yds, 175yds is the top of your trajectory at about 5.3" over POA, then comes back down. This is all based on M855 out of a 14.5" barrel.
    Compare that to 50yd or 100yd zero, and you do not need to do any hold-overs or hold-unders until you hit 200+yds. Inside that range, POA=POI. The only exception being holding for offset at CQB range.
    It's really more about efficiency and ease of use. The goal is to make the weapon as idiot-proof as possible for your average patrol officer (because if they can jack it up, they will), and using a 50yd or 100yd zero does that.
    Thank you, very informative as always! I asked because on Travis Haley's latest carbine video, he mentioned the 36 yard zero and that he was a fan of it and I really couldn't understand why. I will sick with my 50 yard zero for now :-p
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    Haley does the 36yd zero? That's nuts. I never would have thought he would go that route. Being a former Marine, I would have had him pegged for a 50yd or 100yd guy. MEU(SOC) and I think MARSOC both use a 50yd zero for their RDS optics.
    There's a really good video by Jeff Gonzalez on his YouTube channel explaining Point Blank Range that I always encourage people to watch. It does a good job at explaining why PBR is important. He reiterates it heavily in his carbine courses. EAG Tactical is also pretty vocal about the superiority of a 50yd zero for that same reason. For LE use, I think that having that long PBR is the most ideal. The last thing I want to have to do is figure out where my bullet is going to go if I ever have to pop someone at long range. I look back to my Army days qualifying on the pop-up range and trying to remember where I was supposed to hold under, and where to hold over. It was sort of ridiculous and very inefficient when I look at what I can do now with a 50yd or 100yd zero.
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    I'm taking his class in February, so I will find out then exactly what zero he uses and recommends. I'll check out that Jeff Gonzalez video too.
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    black hill 55 grain ballistic tip
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