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Thread: Military Preference Points... fair or not?

  1. #51
    Forum Member Diverdummy's Avatar
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    I agree that there should be a Vet point pref...but what I don't agree with is that new vets get 1st dibs while myself whos been out awhile is thrown back. I have LEO plus military and I still get run past by a fellow vet who just got out even if I have more exp. than him...its happened twice. The two places told me why I wasn't picked. I think the Vet points are great but all vets should be equal and then be based on exp. Just my feeling, I also have talked to others that have been through the same as me.
    So who took my doggy treats????

  2. #52
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    Like anything, it's balance. Its important to honor veteran's for their service, but it's also important to keep diversity in the work place and promote merit based hiring.

  3. #53
    Hustler irishlad2nv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nieto2588 View Post
    Lots of mixed opinions on this subject but I guess that's to be expected. I don't think that vets should get an automatic points addition. Their expertise and training should be considered, though. If it's relevant, sure, give them additional consideration. If it's not, they should be treated like any other candidate. It should basically be treated as experience like job history is. Just my .02. Food for thought, most of the guys I work with got in on Vet Pref. Other non-military had LEO experience or a BS/BA degree.
    Here's something for this thead and take it as you wish...for NYPD: note bullet number 2 and 3!

    •Five points will be added to the passing written score of those candidates who have maintained continuous residency within the five boroughs of NYC (Manhattan, Queens, Bronx, Brooklyn or Staten Island). This residency must be maintained through the date the eligible list is established.
    •Ten points will be added to the passing written test score of those candidates who have had a parent die while engaged in the discharge of his or her duties as a uniformed member of the NYPD. FDNY, NYC Transit PD or NYC Housing Authority PD.
    •Ten points will be added to the passing written test score of those candidates who are siblings of Police Officers or firefighters killed in the line of duty during the attacks on the World Trade Center on September 11, 2001.
    •Five points will be added to the passing written test score of those candidates who have all of the following:

    1.Resident of New York State at the time of eligible list establishment
    2.Have been discharged honorably or released under honorable conditions
    3.Have served full-time active duty, other than active duty for training in the United States Armed Forces During the Persian Gulf conflict, August 2nd 1990 through date to be determined
    OR
    5.Have received the Armed Forces Expeditionary Medal, Navy Expeditionary Medal or the Marine Corps Expeditionary Medal for either:

    ■Hostilities in Lebanon: June 1, 1983 through December 1, 1987
    ■or Hostilities in Grenada; October 23, 1983 through November 21, 1983 or
    ■Hostilities in Panama; December 20, 1989 through January 31, 1990.
    "An excuse is worse and more terrible than a lie, for an excuse is a lie guarded."

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diverdummy View Post
    I agree that there should be a Vet point pref...but what I don't agree with is that new vets get 1st dibs while myself whos been out awhile is thrown back. I have LEO plus military and I still get run past by a fellow vet who just got out even if I have more exp. than him...its happened twice. The two places told me why I wasn't picked. I think the Vet points are great but all vets should be equal and then be based on exp. Just my feeling, I also have talked to others that have been through the same as me.
    I suppose that's another question. Are Vet's preference meant to primarily show thanks for service, or to help recently returning Veterans start a quality career?

    Not giving an opinion here, just offering food for thought.

  5. #55
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    I am inclined to support benefits given to veterans. After all, I didn't have to serve in these questionable conflicts.

  6. #56
    Forum Member Diverdummy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by o2force View Post
    I suppose that's another question. Are Vet's preference meant to primarily show thanks for service, or to help recently returning Veterans start a quality career?

    Not giving an opinion here, just offering food for thought.
    I was told ( being this Veteran just ETS from the service and you have been out awhile, even though you have been in the LEO field longer...the way the new law reads, well I have to chose that person but good luck on your search.) that very line when appling to two different federal police locations...from what I understand the agency(ies) get a tax break / bonus from hiring newly ETS vets. As for the person stating he tried to serve but do to heart problems at 18 months...I do think you should be giving something from the miltary saying you tried to enlist but was unable to because of this reason (_____). At that point you should be given something because at least you were trying unlike some people.
    So who took my doggy treats????

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diverdummy View Post
    I was told ( being this Veteran just ETS from the service and you have been out awhile, even though you have been in the LEO field longer...the way the new law reads, well I have to chose that person but good luck on your search.) that very line when appling to two different federal police locations...from what I understand the agency(ies) get a tax break / bonus from hiring newly ETS vets. As for the person stating he tried to serve but do to heart problems at 18 months...I do think you should be giving something from the miltary saying you tried to enlist but was unable to because of this reason (_____). At that point you should be given something because at least you were trying unlike some people.
    I have wondered how that would work.. giving like a consolation point or something. A "thanks for trying" point. That would become a sticky situation in a hurry. People would want points for everything if it went that far. I'd rather just be hired because I was #1 for the job. Not because i was #3 but became #1 because of a courtesy point or other. But like people have said... If you got hired, someone wanted you for some reason or other. Pat yourself on the back.

  8. #58
    Forum Member Diverdummy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuhlers View Post
    I have wondered how that would work.. giving like a consolation point or something. A "thanks for trying" point. That would become a sticky situation in a hurry. People would want points for everything if it went that far. I'd rather just be hired because I was #1 for the job. Not because i was #3 but became #1 because of a courtesy point or other. But like people have said... If you got hired, someone wanted you for some reason or other. Pat yourself on the back.
    I agree with you in the end...if you get on just be happy, if not keep trying.
    So who took my doggy treats????

  9. #59
    Operator Bearcat357's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuhlers View Post
    I obviously understand the fact that I will have to undergo a medical exam. Do you think I would have gone this far into something without making sure I couldn't pass the easiest part? My own health test? I had a small portion of a valve repaired. Not a triple bypass.
    Depends on the agency...... You'd have to get with places you want to work for and talk to them.....

  10. #60
    Operator Bearcat357's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diverdummy View Post
    I agree that there should be a Vet point pref...but what I don't agree with is that new vets get 1st dibs while myself whos been out awhile is thrown back.
    The issue is.....we went to war for the US....you didn't..... Big difference.

    Should there be stuff for Cold War Vets.....? Yeap.....

    Should there be stuff for folks caught btwn wars...? Yeap....

    Right now, there isn't..... and you have to learn to deal with it because it won't be changing anytime soon.....

    Further, have you looked into VEOSA and VRA Programs....? You might be covered..... I'd read up on them and get with OPM for clarification.....but thats just me.

  11. #61
    Forum Member Diverdummy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bearcat357 View Post
    The issue is.....we went to war for the US....you didn't..... Big difference.

    Should there be stuff for Cold War Vets.....? Yeap.....

    Should there be stuff for folks caught btwn wars...? Yeap....

    Right now, there isn't..... and you have to learn to deal with it because it won't be changing anytime soon.....

    Further, have you looked into VEOSA and VRA Programs....? You might be covered..... I'd read up on them and get with OPM for clarification.....but thats just me.
    Hey Bearcat I have and it still doesn't help with me as far as getting ahead of other vets...I am just glad that I have a job in the LEO family.
    So who took my doggy treats????

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dingo990 View Post

    And this isn't about rewarding service or honoring troops. The simple fake is, veterans tend to make better candidates for cops. That is not universal and plenty of non veterans do just fine in a law enforcement career. But all things being equal, a veteran has a better chance of making through the academy and FTO....
    Not necessarily, I knew of veterans who did not make it through FTO at my department, including a guy who was an officer in the Marine Corps Reserve...and I also knew of non-veterans who did not make it through FTO....it all just depends on the person.

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    I am a 5 point vet, who's been trying out for Fed LE for a few years, and nothing yet. Don't worry, even if you had vet points, you probably wouldn't be in by now.

    Get your master degree done and get a job with any PDs that would hire you. You will network and also get some good experience.

  14. #64
    One man Wolfpack M-11's Avatar
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    Wow this went downhill fast.

    Ok Here's my take as a 10 point vet.

    First of all, I'm not concerned with the free points, as I am confident I can smoke 90% of the American population on just about any written test.

    it is my understanding that many Depts allow you to "Save" those points and use them for promotion testing in the future. That is where I think they are of value to the employer. If I have 20 years of service, I have most likely supervised 50+ troops at some point. And while it was in a different environment, at a basic level management is management.

    I think the points are there to entice Vets to test period. There are plenty of opportunities to weed someone out along the way after the written.

    I know a lot of depts that do not require a college degree (they might prefer one) and actually award a % of pay for having a 2 or four year degree.

    Is that gap in pay fair for the rest of people? I mean money probably means even more than the test points right?

    In the end, we all know life is not fair. we are all guilty of stacking the odds in our favor. If that is not second nature to us, we would not survive long as cops.

    Plenty of vets are great cops. Plenty of vets are in jail for being *******s.

    Same same for nom vets.

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  15. #65
    Forum Member Correction19's Avatar
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    I agree with Veteran Preference Points. 100%. He or she who served should receive those points 5 or 10, etc. What I do not agree with is a Non-vet who hypothetically scores a 98 and the vet scores a 90+5 points totaling 95. This puts both Non-vet and Vet in the same category based on category ranking in the federal system. By law, the hiring agency must choose to hire the Vet over the Non-Vet. Is this right? If the Non-vet was able to still score higher than the Vet how much more preference should he or she get? Just because your a vet does not always make you a better choice, just means you are recognized by certain agencies as deserving of preferential treatment. If vets were considered better candidates then all businesses outside law enforcement would recognize preference. Summary- I think if a Non-Vet can outscore a vet even after he or she has gotten their points, then he or she should deserve the position! Just my two cents.
    Last edited by Correction19; 04-12-2012 at 11:41 PM.
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  16. #66
    Forum Member Albert Wesker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SHU View Post
    The OP has a valid point. I have close to ten years LE experience and a BA and last year I was 1 point short of making the cut to test for an investigator position but a guy I work with who has two yrs LE experience, a BA, and 4 yrs in the national guard in a adim mos scored 2 pts higher and made the cut.
    I realize you are talking about the HSI 1811 announcement last year. The same thing happened to me. I have 5 years with Border Patrol and 5 years as a Deputy Sheriff. Also I have my MBA, however I did not even qualify to test for the southwest border (where I already live and work).

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    I think if departments are going to give out perference point for vets, then they should have a bachelors degree as well. I think its extremely unfair that someone with military experience and a HS diploma should recieve more points, then someone like myself with a bachelors degree.

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    I'm fairly new to the boards, but thought I would chime in also.

    I'm a 5 point veteran who was hired twice under the VRA program and tested for another position where I received 105 and was hired. Not counting my USMC time, I had 19 years in DoD/INS/CBP before I quit and went contracting. I'm currently in Afghanistan now and on the federal job hunt again and taking advantage of my VRA, VEOA and reinstatement eligibility.

    I personally like the added points, but feel it should be tweaked so that no one can score over 100.

    The points and programs are a great reward but I also don't feel veterans are always the better employees. My personal experience definitely indicates veterans generally look better in uniform, but I don't think the average veteran becomes a better officer in the long run than the average non-veteran. Now for the part that is going cause a problem. In MY 19 years of government service most of the people I have seen fired or severely disciplined have been veterans. I served in border agencies for 14 years which tend to attract corrupt applicants and of the four people I personally know who have been arrested (2 duty related and 2 off-duty related) all were veterans.

    Now with all that being said, I am definitely taking advantage of the points and I'm also schooling the soldiers I work with on the programs and help them out with their resumes and USAjobs search. I had my first success this year with one (former) soldier making it into the USBP this year!!

  19. #69
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    I work with a few vets. Some are really sharp. Others are completely undisciplined.
    For the cops out there: You are an adult. If you want to write someone, write them. If you don't want to write someone, then don't write them.

    "Jeff, you are the best cop on this board"-Anonymous Post

  20. #70
    Forum Member Diverdummy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffIL View Post
    I work with a few vets. Some are really sharp. Others are completely undisciplined.
    At the BOP you see alittle of both worlds (vets and non-vets) as far as some being sharp and undisciplined, truth I think it comes down to the person.
    So who took my doggy treats????

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    Quote Originally Posted by 20Rubicon07 View Post
    I think if departments are going to give out perference point for vets, then they should have a bachelors degree as well. I think its extremely unfair that someone with military experience and a HS diploma should recieve more points, then someone like myself with a bachelors degree.
    Why is it unfair?

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    Yeah, that's just not true.

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    I don't complain about agencies that only accept applicants with a degree, nor do I complain when an agency only hires from within. I was not able to apply to the diplomatic security opening because I don't have a degree yet, nor the several BP reinstatement openings they recently had posted because I am not a former BPA. I cannot apply to the FBI, nor the CIA for the same reason. I will just finish school so I can apply to these agencies when the openings become available. There are many, many job openings for many agencies that I cannot just simply apply for, because I don't have a dgree. If I need to go to school to get a job, why can't non vets join the military to get a job? Of course there are those unfortunate circumstances that arise on both ends. And I am not speaking of all non-vets. I am merely speaking of those that are young enough, and able bodied. Get off your butts and go kill some Taliban.
    Last edited by spazzbite11; 04-13-2012 at 01:37 PM.

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    Wow, so sick of getting on here and reading nothing about people complaining about Military Pref. Pts. I am NOT a vet, but I have been applying to different agencies for over 1.5 yrs now, and finally something paid off. It seems like every thread on here, (especially under the Fed. threads) there is always at least 2-3 pages of people complaining how they do not think it is fair about vet. pref. pts. Like someone stated back on pg. one, if you don't like it, join up, do your time, and get your pts. If not, then stop complaining about it, keep applying, and something will eventually come up.

  25. #75
    One man Wolfpack M-11's Avatar
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    I am a Master Sergeant, and I have a Masters Degree. I can tell you with complete honesty that my 16 years of experience is worth far more than my 6 years of schooling.

    If you are against Veterans Points. Be a better applicant. Take more school, learn a language, find somewhere the VA points do not matter.

    Beat us fair and square.

    M-11
    “All men dream...... But not equally..
    Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it is vanity;
    but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men,
    for they act their dreams with open eyes to make it possible.....”

    TE Lawrence

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