View Poll Results: Does creating more laws against "bullying" are we making people accept weakness and

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  • "yes!" People must learn to stand up for themselves..

    9 45.00%
  • "no" bullying has got to curbed at all costs in society

    3 15.00%
  • "no" people must be taught to accept others no matter what

    1 5.00%
  • "yes"- we are creating a lazy ,cowardly society

    10 50.00%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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  1. #1
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    Too "PC" on "bullying?"

    Many of us are keenly aware of the issue of "bullying"- recently a young college student was convicted of acts that were considered bullying, that were attributed to the death of a fellow student. We've all heard heartbreaking stories of teen suicides, even people being murdered by "bullies".

    but I'm also noticing something else, and again this is my opinion. It seems that the attempts to quash bullying in schools, in the community, and even on the job, has led to individuals who SHIELD their poor behavior, inadequate performance , and selfishness, or down right laziness by claiming they were being "bullied" or harrassed.

    We've all grown up dealing with bullies- many of us have had people mistreat us in one form or another, and YET many of us have endured, even gotten STRONGER, and became BETTER people. Our laws and even constitutional rights protect us from the "bully" already. and people on both sides of the political spectrum, liberal and conservative, believe in the idea of people standing up for their rights and themselves.

    but in preaching "PC", are we taking away from our young people the notions of preserverance? Are we catering to the selfish, coddled Generation "why?"( as in "why" do I have too? "why" are you asking me? "why" isn't it being given to me?)

    Are we spoiling people by taking away the reality of life- that it is hard and cruel sometimes. "Ralph Waldo Emerson said "we acquire strength when we overcome". In our dash to protect the weak, are we making people accept weakness as the way to be?...
    Last edited by DOAcop38; 04-07-2012 at 12:12 AM.
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  2. #2
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    If more people grew a pair and adopted the old school philosophy of "sticks and stones", life would be better all around. Many folks need to take control of their own lives and not allow the spoken word of others affect them.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by HI629 View Post
    If more people grew a pair and adopted the old school philosophy of "sticks and stones", life would be better all around. Many folks need to take control of their own lives and not allow the spoken word of others affect them.
    Nonesense. Bullies do more than just hurt others with words. They torment and torture weaker people largely because of their own insecurities. Under no circumstances should this be tolerated and the strong need to stand up for those who are weaker, at least in the physical sense.

    Think about the job of LE when you protect women, children and the elderly from scum gangbangers. What would it be like if they couldn't walk down their own streets or go out side their homes because they live in fear every day? It's no different than with bullies. There only goal is to terrorize the weak. We are told we live in a free country, yet nobody can be free under those circumstances.

    Now, I was always taught that if you stood up to a bully he would back down and move on to the next kid. I tried it and when the punk missed a week of school with a broken nose, other kids were on notice not to eff with me. Unfortunately, not all kids will take that advice. But no matter what, everyone deserves to be able to walk to school or wherever without worrying if some punk is going to make their lives a living hell.

    My proposol is that we cut the nuts off of first time offenders but I know that won't go over well in a civilized society. I am open to lesser forms of punishment. however.
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  4. #4
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    It's a mixed bag. I always cringe when something bad happens and a bunch of outraged people then all say, "There ought to be a law to prevent this from ever happening again!" Because of this, emotionally charged, common sense deprived, constitutionally questionable laws are made that over-punish even slight infractions.

    That said, when one is an adult, "sticks and stones" reigns true and we really don't give a crap what random idiots say. However the majority of kids just don't have the maturity to NOT be hurt by that jerk who's opinion should mean absolutely dick. We can impound it into our kids' heads over and over and they just won't get it. It's just the way things are. I see teenagers in their natural state every day when I'm subbing and they're dumb as a bag of hammers, ever last one of them. I was at that age once, and all of you were too (and some of you still are ). It's just part of growing. They're clueless, hormonal, short-sighted, and many are brutal and vicious. It's just a stage of human development. As a result, they react badly to any barbs thrown their way. If someone insults an adult, we say, "Screw you." If they turn a bunch of people, including people who were supposedly friends, against us, we say, "Screw the whole backstabbing lot of you. Hate me all you want, because I'll just find some non-Adam Henry friends." If the same thing happens to a 16 year old, in their mind, they're a loser, they'll never recover their reputation, they'll never get any friends, and their life is over. To make matters worse, they can't even escape online anymore and kids also make harassing calls. The parents of these bullies think that their kids are angels so nothing is done. The bullied kid feels trapped, so they either kill themselves or shoot up their schools.

    Therefore, I think that giving school and community authorities the tools to combat bullying IS a good idea, because telling a bullied kid, "Quit bitching and grow a pair," just doesn't cut it with most kids. On the other hand, kids facings PHYSICAL bullying should not be afraid to use reasonable force to defend themselves. Expelling kids because they threw a block at a kid who was punching them only creates a culture of victims and gives bullies assurance that there will be a lot of hesitation to resisting their aggression.
    Last edited by GangGreen712; 04-09-2012 at 04:47 PM. Reason: typo
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  5. #5
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    Problem with bullying is often it is with a stronger person against a weaker person so fighting back may be a suicidal option. When a bully starts pushing people down stairs, tripping people, stealing, they turn from bullies into criminals especially if injury such as broken limbs start appearing and as for "stick and stones" that may work only if the bullying is nothing but verbal.

    On the other hand, kids facings PHYSICAL bullying should not be afraid to use reasonable force to defend themselves. Expelling kids because they threw a block at a kid who was punching them only creates a culture of victims and gives bullies assurance that there will be a lot of hesitation to resisting their aggression.
    Exactly, and the few victims who may be able to physically defend themselves don't due to fear of reprisal from the school.
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  6. #6
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    In posting, I was definitely NOt saying that people should "go it alone"- indeed I do believe tha people should be able to expose the bully- i feel bullying is simply cowardice . what I am concerned about is that in rooting out the "bully", we may allow others to make excuses for their own failings. I see apathy in many young people these days- they DON'T like challenge or to be challenged, and I fear they will equate any challenge as "harassing" or bullying
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  7. #7
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    I'd say it's both. For one, if you're able to fight back, do so. If you're gonna let some worm bully you into something, you lack cajones. At the same time though, sometimes those bullied are unable to fight back. I definitely don't want a plethora of more laws added to our books. What ever happened to "I'll meet you at the flagpole"?
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  8. #8
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    The truth lies somewhere in between your choices. Bullying should be curbed; extreme examples should be curbed with zeal. We do not necessarily need to adopt more laws or negative traits to accomplish it.

  9. #9
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    i feel bullying is simply cowardice
    Exactly, bullys pick on people who they think are not capable or will not defend themselves. The true definition of a coward.
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  10. #10
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    My son would get kudos for protecting a weaker person. He certainly would get no beef from me for dropping a POS bully.

  11. #11
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    The problem with this and hate crime type laws is that it's purely discretionary. We are surrendering far too much power to the state in the interest of security. A substantial penalty for assault is all that's needed but too many people want government to be their mommy.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasperST View Post
    The problem with this and hate crime type laws is that it's purely discretionary. We are surrendering far too much power to the state in the interest of security. A substantial penalty for assault is all that's needed but too many people want government to be their mommy.
    So if I assault someone because I do not want him to testify against me, shouldn't that only be prosecuted as an assault?
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ex Army MP View Post
    So if I assault someone because I do not want him to testify against me, shouldn't that only be prosecuted as an assault?
    How is that remotely the same? Isn't that obstruction of justice?

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasperST View Post
    How is that remotely the same? Isn't that obstruction of justice?
    Witness tampering. In any event, the comparison is that the impact on the victim physically is the same. A punch in the face hurts in both instances.

    What I am suggesting is that the law can and often does make laws where there exists a compelling interest to prevent a greater harm beyond the there and then act.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ex Army MP View Post
    Witness tampering. In any event, the comparison is that the impact on the victim physically is the same. A punch in the face hurts in both instances.

    What I am suggesting is that the law can and often does make laws where there exists a compelling interest to prevent a greater harm beyond the there and then act.
    That argument could be used to justify anything. Many people have died for the greater good. Tampering with justice isn't the same as not hurting someone's feelings. A punch is a punch and should be treated like a punch, not a blow to humanity.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ex Army MP View Post
    Nonesense. Bullies do more than just hurt others with words. They torment and torture weaker people largely because of their own insecurities. Under no circumstances should this be tolerated and the strong need to stand up for those who are weaker, at least in the physical sense.

    Think about the job of LE when you protect women, children and the elderly from scum gangbangers. What would it be like if they couldn't walk down their own streets or go out side their homes because they live in fear every day? It's no different than with bullies. There only goal is to terrorize the weak. We are told we live in a free country, yet nobody can be free under those circumstances..
    You saved me some typing.

    I think the poll questions are a bit biased and/or written for extremes.

    People like to say, "If you're being bullied, just stand up to them and they'll stop." Yeah, right. What if there's three of them? What if there's five of them? What if there's just one and he bench presses 500 pounds and practices MMA after school? Now along with getting bullied you might literally get your face smashed in.

    This isn't the movies where the bully gets his comeuppance in the final act. These are real kids, and even if they have the will to stand up to a bully, it doesn't mean they actually can.

    Some will definitely "stand up to the bully," though. There's the recent incident of a 15-year-old who brought a knife to school because he feared an 18-year-old bully. One day they both got off the bus, the 15-year-old ran, the 18-year-old chased him and I think took a swing at him, and then the 15-year-old stabbed him and killed him.

    He stood up to that bully alright.

    But maybe it would have been better if adults had stepped in before then.
    Quote Originally Posted by DOAcop38 View Post
    In posting, I was definitely NOt saying that people should "go it alone"- indeed I do believe tha people should be able to expose the bully- i feel bullying is simply cowardice . what I am concerned about is that in rooting out the "bully", we may allow others to make excuses for their own failings. I see apathy in many young people these days- they DON'T like challenge or to be challenged, and I fear they will equate any challenge as "harassing" or bullying
    In a free country, people have the right to fail. People don't have the right to assault and harass others.

    What a lot of people are saying is it's ok to assault and harass people. You can't do that as an adult, yet for some reason some people think it's ok for kids to do it.

    Being bullied as a kid can be hell on Earth, and can even lead to suicide.
    Bullies can put mental scars on other kids that last a lifetime. Don't doubt it for a second.

  17. #17
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  18. #18
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    I think bullying when it involves physical battery or threat thereof should be treated like any other assault or battery offense. The offender should be corrected severely enough that the person he is tormenting doesn't have to neutralize the threat himself. I find complacency about the matter infuriating.

  19. #19
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    I think the word 'bullying' is really a cover for the actual crimes that are committed when it occurs and it should be called what it really is. Harassment, Assault, and Menacing. What's even worse is that when I was in middle school, if you defended yourself you'd often find yourself in worse trouble than the person who started the whole thing, with the victim getting in severe trouble and the 'bully' walking away scot-free.
    Last edited by LINY; 04-15-2012 at 01:44 PM.

  20. #20
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    Entirely agree LINY,

    In my high school fighting was a suspension offense no matter who was at fault.

    If you were disincented from reasonable self defense by that policy, you wouldn't escalate an encounter with a bully to the level of of a fight, so you could pretty much be bullied with impunity unless you complained to the authorities about it, in which case you'd be branded as a snitch, and would consequently be targeted for retribution.

    Once when a kid in gym class (the teacher had stepped away for a rest room break) pulled a knife and threatened me (he was on the court and I was on the bleachers some 30 feet away and a few rows up so I didn't think it was a serious threat) some other kid told the Dean (yeah we had a Dean) and the knife kid and I got called into the Dean's office. I told the Dean yeah he'd showed a knife but I didn't think he was serious about using it against me. The Dean wanted to expel the kid over the matter. I said really I thought he'd just wanted me to shut up, and hadn't had any real intention to injure me. He hadn't said he intended to use the knife against me. When the Dean asked me if I'd repeat my account in front of the School Board I said yeah but I'd say that he'd only showed me the knife from a safe distance and hadn't threatened to use it on me. I knew that wasn't at time ('70s) at that school in itself an expulsion offense. The Dean in fact sympathized with the kid having wanted me to shut up and we all laughed at that. The kid took a 1 day suspension for bringing the knife to school and that was that.

    Here's a further response to the OP:

    Quote Originally Posted by DOAcop38 View Post
    Many of us are keenly aware of the issue of "bullying"- recently a young college student was convicted of acts that were considered bullying, that were attributed to the death of a fellow student. We've all heard heartbreaking stories of teen suicides, even people being murdered by "bullies".
    The death of the fellow student was by suicide. I don't think the attribution of the death to the bullying was reasonable. I do think that bullying should not be tolerated.

    but I'm also noticing something else, and again this is my opinion. It seems that the attempts to quash bullying in schools, in the community, and even on the job, has led to individuals who SHIELD their poor behavior, inadequate performance , and selfishness, or down right laziness by claiming they were being "bullied" or harrassed.
    How does attempting to get rid of bullying lead to people untruthfully using having been bullied as an excuse for their own wrongdoing or inadequacy? Should we quit trying to stop thievery because people might use having had their cars stolen as an excuse for no longer going to work? Being against wrongdoing doesn't make you an enabler of crybabies and it could motivate you to become a proper disenabler of bad guys.

    We've all grown up dealing with bullies- many of us have had people mistreat us in one form or another, and YET many of us have endured, even gotten STRONGER, and became BETTER people.
    Are you trying to say people are better off being bullied?

    Our laws and even constitutional rights protect us from the "bully" already. and people on both sides of the political spectrum, liberal and conservative, believe in the idea of people standing up for their rights and themselves.
    The laws don't protect people if they're not enforced. And people are not by law allowed to protect themselves sufficiently effectively against bullying. If the law will not help you, you have to either suck it up, or bring to bear superior force. For the person being bullied the only sufficient force would be considered disproportionate under law. A kid isn't permitted to use weapons against people because they won't quit snapping wet towels on him in the locker room, and if the bullies are bigger and tougher than he is, he by himself probably cannot do anything else about it that is sufficiently effective. How many kids have joined gangs to get out of being continually bullied?

    but in preaching "PC", are we taking away from our young people the notions of preserverance? Are we catering to the selfish, coddled Generation "why?"( as in "why" do I have too? "why" are you asking me? "why" isn't it being given to me?)

    Are we spoiling people by taking away the reality of life- that it is hard and cruel sometimes. "Ralph Waldo Emerson said "we acquire strength when we overcome". In our dash to protect the weak, are we making people accept weakness as the way to be?...
    Are you really asking or are you preaching toleration of bullying? I think you're doing the latter. You're suggesting strongly that being bullied is beneficial.

    Ayn Rand characterized Emerson as "a little mind" when she quoted in her lecture "Philosophy: Who Needs It?" his remark "consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds". Does that mean that if she'd been his contemporary and had after having read the remark been in his vicinity, she should have been permitted to beat him up for writing it, or that he should have been permitted to beat her up for calling him a little mind? Should Oscar Wilde's colleagues at Oxford have been congratulated for "wrecking his rooms" because he was too much of a fop?

    I think a person who believes in people either having to endure bullying or having to be willing and able to handle it solo doesn't belong in LE.

    As for the poll I think the response set is deplorable:

    "yes!" People must learn to stand up for themselves..
    So it's OK for a 3rd-grader to surreptitiously put MPTP in all the bullies' kool-aid and then watch them all get transferred to another school for kids with Parkinson's?

    "no" bullying has got to curbed at all costs in society
    Why not omit the "at all costs"?

    "no" people must be taught to accept others no matter what
    What do you mean by "accept others" and "no matter what"? People must be taught to not bully others? No matter how much some people like bullying others?

    "yes"- we are creating a lazy ,cowardly society
    We already have appropriate laws. Some of the authorities are not willing to enforce them appropriately. Maybe some persons in authority feel too much empathy for bullies and too little sympathy for bullied persons.

    Please look at the quandary bullied kids are in. If the authorities do nothing, the bullied kids must either put up with the relentless torment, or somehow shut down the persecution themselves. They should not be presented with only those alternatives.

    The authorities should step up and intervene before the bullied kids have no acceptable alternative but to resort to extreme measures.

    I agree that that we shouldn't cultivate weakness and should promote strength.

    I don't think we should try to achieve that by tolerating cruelty.

    Regards,

    Monty
    Last edited by Monty Ealerman; 04-15-2012 at 08:53 PM.

  21. #21
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    This thread reminds me of a discussion I had with my dad when I was in about 4th grade. It went something like this:
    me: Dad, this kid at school pushes me everyday off the playground equipment.
    dad: did you tell him to stop?
    me: yes
    dad: well son you can defend yourself. dont start it but if he pushes you hit him back. thats how you stop bullies.
    me: but dad this kids a lot bigger than me. I'm gonna get beat up.
    dad: Son sometimes in life your going to get beat up but if you dont stand up for yourself you'll always get beat up.

    Result: I pushed the kid, he didnt like it, i told him I didnt like getting pushed either. We were fine with each other after that. In fact played football together years later and became good friends and remain so to today.

    I think often in todays world we think we have to have all the answers and solve all the problems for ouor kids. Heck the neighbor kid and I use to fight at least a couple times a week but after it was over it was over and we went on playing.
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  22. #22
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    I'm not going to bother to read all of the posts, but in most cases, yes, kids today are being coddled and not taught how to deal with bullies. I used to get picked on and bullied daily through 8th grade. I dealt with it and learned to ignore their bulls**t.

    One of the last times I was ever bullied, was in 7th grade, when I was the football team's "waterboy". Every day during reading class, I got picked on by a bully, who was a lineman for the 7th grade team, and his cronie. One day I had enough. I tried to walk by him, and he shouldered me and wouldn't let me by. I pushed him, he pushed me, I looked that little b**ch in the eyes and clocked him right in front of the teacher. She didn't see because she was looking down at the moment, but everyone in the class saw. Their jaws dropped. We got sent to the office, big deal, it was worth it. Did I have to go get a knife, or a gun, or any other crap? No. These days parents want to baby their kids and not teach them how to deal with problems.

    Guess what, life isn't fair. That s**t is going to happen your whole life. Learn how to deal with it.
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    It's not always like it is in Mayberry.



    Often in real life bullies scornfully put down all opposition until the authorities step in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rudy8116 View Post
    One day I had enough. I tried to walk by him, and he shouldered me and wouldn't let me by. I pushed him, he pushed me, I looked that little b**ch in the eyes and clocked him right in front of the teacher. She didn't see because she was looking down at the moment, but everyone in the class saw. Their jaws dropped. We got sent to the office, big deal, it was worth it. Did I have to go get a knife, or a gun, or any other crap? No. These days parents want to baby their kids and not teach them how to deal with problems.

    Guess what, life isn't fair. That s**t is going to happen your whole life. Learn how to deal with it.
    The way for a kid to deal with problems is violence and then facing expulsion for that violence?

    If the bully has a knife, or five friends who are also bullies, does the kid still have to figure out how to deal with his own problems?

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by DangerClose View Post
    The way for a kid to deal with problems is violence and then facing expulsion for that violence?

    If the bully has a knife, or five friends who are also bullies, does the kid still have to figure out how to deal with his own problems?
    Sure. He grows up and gets a CCW permit.

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