View Poll Results: What do you think is the best service weapon choice policy?

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  • Single standard issue weapons ONLY, including off duty

    2 1.96%
  • Standard issue for primary, but off duty is officer's choice

    23 22.55%
  • Multiple standard issue choices but no personal firearms

    11 10.78%
  • Standard issue, but officers can carry personal w/ approval

    57 55.88%
  • No standard issue; officer responsible for own weapons

    9 8.82%
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  1. #51
    Forum Member Sgt. Slaughter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lawdawg45 View Post
    I was referencing their 9mm sidearm.
    Nice try.

    You do realize the military pistol is a last ditch weapon immediately preceding hand-to-hand combat/knife work don't you? The military knows handgun round are comparatively ineffective for what their missions are.

  2. #52
    Forum Member Lawdawg45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sgt. Slaughter View Post
    Nice try.

    You do realize the military pistol is a last ditch weapon immediately preceding hand-to-hand combat/knife work don't you? The military knows handgun round are comparatively ineffective for what their missions are.
    I do, and in keeping with the thought of the OP, they don't have different types of handguns and rifles in numerous calibers. They can share pistol and rifle ammo, that was my point.

    LD
    "Did you bring any Gold or Silver with you Mr. Chisum?..........No, just lead"

  3. #53
    Forum Member Sgt. Slaughter's Avatar
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    :fekkingfacepalm:

  4. #54
    Che
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    +1 on the fekkingfacepalm

  5. #55
    Forum Member Lawdawg45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sgt. Slaughter View Post
    :fekkingfacepalm:
    Maybe you could state your frustration and educate a non military LEO to your point.

    LD
    "Did you bring any Gold or Silver with you Mr. Chisum?..........No, just lead"

  6. #56
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    We can use whatever firearm we like, as long as it's 9mm, 40, or 45. No 1911s (sucks).

    The downside is our Command staff is VERY against weapon mounted lights, lasers, or anything of the sort. I'm a big fan of weapon mounted lights (lasers not so much), so I hope this policy is changed.

    We used issued M4s, and I'm also hoping policy changes and we're allowed to buy our own. I just don't trust that the ones we're issued are clean or will work when needed. I don't want to find out something is wrong as I'm running into an active shooter situation.

  7. #57
    Forum Member Sgt. Slaughter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lawdawg45 View Post
    Maybe you could state your frustration and educate a non military LEO to your point.

    LD
    The military fields roughly a dozen different handguns. While the Beretta may be the lion's share, there's still a good assortment of manufacturers that do not offer magazine and ammo interchangability. Glock, Sig, H&K, and a few 1911s. The unit's TO&E dictate which items are held in the armory. There are also differences in caliber as they use 9mm, .40 S&W and. 45 ACP.

  8. #58
    Forum Member Lawdawg45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sgt. Slaughter View Post
    The military fields roughly a dozen different handguns. While the Beretta may be the lion's share, there's still a good assortment of manufacturers that do not offer magazine and ammo interchangability. Glock, Sig, H&K, and a few 1911s. The unit's TO&E dictate which items are held in the armory. There are also differences in caliber as they use 9mm, .40 S&W and. 45 ACP.
    Got it. I'm not the idiot you presumed me to be, understanding the variation of weapons issued per unit, but my comment was a generalization to the issue of 9mm to most troops and the 5.56 rifle. The way I understand it (as a civilian) is that ammo is shared between soldiers, but primarily the rifle calibers.

    LD
    "Did you bring any Gold or Silver with you Mr. Chisum?..........No, just lead"

  9. #59
    Forum Member Sgt. Slaughter's Avatar
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    In the military, the mission trumps all including personal safety. Completely different environment which is why they should rarely be compared. The includes gross generalizations.

    And for the record, I never said you were an idiot.

  10. #60
    Forum Member Lawdawg45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sgt. Slaughter View Post
    In the military, the mission trumps all including personal safety. Completely different environment which is why they should rarely be compared. The includes gross generalizations.

    And for the record, I never said you were an idiot.
    Why thank you!

    You must admit though if the military approached arming the troops as some have suggested for their department, allowing them to choose the weapon and caliber, it potentially could be a chaotic firefight. As I said in my very first post, I recognize that my opinion will be a minority one.

    LD
    "Did you bring any Gold or Silver with you Mr. Chisum?..........No, just lead"

  11. #61
    Forum Member Sgt. Slaughter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lawdawg45 View Post
    Why thank you!
    Never said I didn't think it, just that I didn't say it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lawdawg45 View Post
    You must admit though if the military approached arming the troops as some have suggested for their department, allowing them to choose the weapon and caliber, it potentially could be a chaotic firefight.
    No one has to admit that, because there's no way in hell it would ever happen. It's a standing army, not a ragtag militia. To allow that to happen would be a logistical clusterf*&k and that's just the beginning of the shenanigans that would ensue.

  12. #62
    Forum Member Lawdawg45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sgt. Slaughter View Post
    Never said I didn't think it, just that I didn't say it.



    No one has to admit that, because there's no way in hell it would ever happen. It's a standing army, not a ragtag militia. To allow that to happen would be a logistical clusterf*&k and that's just the beginning of the shenanigans that would ensue.
    Again, agreed. I understand that the environment and combat is different on the LE side, but for those SHTF moments, the same preparation is needed in my opinion. One Officer having a .40 Glock, the other having a Sig .45, one having a Springfield 9mm, and yet someone else having a 1911 spells chaos to me as well.

    Maybe the forum could answer this for me.....my preference would be to allow the Officers to choose a caliber, then arm the entire force with full size duty Glocks and sub-compacts for off duty/back up. Tell me what's right or wrong with that system.

    LD
    "Did you bring any Gold or Silver with you Mr. Chisum?..........No, just lead"

  13. #63
    Che
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lawdawg45 View Post
    ... but for those SHTF moments, ...

    Maybe the forum could answer this for me..... then arm the entire force
    Do not forget this a national forum. One member belongs to a PD of 34,500 and another is on one of 12. That recent SHTF moment in Utah involved four different agencies. You going to do a mag swap with Constable Bob? You are that close you should be engaged until the fight is over.

  14. #64
    Forum Member Lawdawg45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Che View Post
    Do not forget this a national forum. One member belongs to a PD of 34,500 and another is on one of 12. That recent SHTF moment in Utah involved four different agencies. You going to do a mag swap with Constable Bob? You are that close you should be engaged until the fight is over.
    Good point.

    LD
    "Did you bring any Gold or Silver with you Mr. Chisum?..........No, just lead"

  15. #65
    Caution: Unvetted member. KenW.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Che View Post
    Do not forget this a national forum. One member belongs to a PD of 34,500 and another is on one of 12. That recent SHTF moment in Utah involved four different agencies. You going to do a mag swap with Constable Bob? You are that close you should be engaged until the fight is over.
    They didn't need to share mags.
    So shouldn't the point be that everyone needs to carry enough of their own ammo to get them through such a situation? AND there needs to someone at the scene of such an operation with a carbine or shotgun. Even as a Detective I carry a loaded and charged pistol along with two spare mags for a total of 44 rounds; that's not to mention the AR and ole mossy in the truck.

    One result of the shootout in Ogden UT is that we re-examine our proceedures for even the simple, innocent little low-risk day to day things. The public will have to see the big guns in our hands from time to time.
    Last edited by KenW.; 04-12-2012 at 02:45 PM.
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  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenW. View Post
    Even as a Detective I carry a loaded and charged pistol along with two spare mags for a total of 44 rounds; that's not to mention the AR and ole mossy in the truck.
    When I was working auto theft I carried two revolvers and a derringer for a total of 50 rounds of .38 Special +P but I was famous for always having a shotgun with me.

  17. #67
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    Issue or Personal Choice?

    Departments or agencies (take your pick) require standardized weapons for reasons NOT concerning officer safety.

    Lawsuit protection: To preempt lawsuits alleging improper training or unsuitable firearms or ammunition, a department will standardize all officers' or agents' firearms. I've had firearms staff instructors tell me learning how to coach troops with more than one weapon is simply too hard. There is a belief among 'administrators' allowing troops to choose their own weapon will increase liability.

    Fear/Ignorance/Ego: The typical LEA 'administrator' or manager isn't particular knowledgeable about firearms. They tend to not like firearms and don't trust anyone who likes and is familiar with firearms. So, to minimize their own fear of firearms and those who carry them, they take all choice away from anyone under their authority who actually is competent.

    I have also known a manager or two who carried a gun 'in the old days' and has no real knowledge of current production firearms, except for Glock. Glocks are great for departments and agencies because they can be purchased in bulk at a good (cheap) price.

    Let us never forget the delicate ego of managers. "Because I said so!" is all the rationale many need. They surely do not need the complication of knowledge. To allow an officer or agent to select and carry a personal choice firearm is to admit the manager is not omniscient. Unthinkable!

    The 'sharing' guns and ammunition straw argument.

    Gunfights, including those involving multiple criminals, are best solved with careful, aimed shots rendering the violators incapable of further hostile action; not a blaze of wild shots directed in the general direction of what seems to be the villain(s).

    Agencies would be better served by teaching their officers to shoot properly rather than 'standardize' equipment.

    The U. S. Armed Forces have standard arms and ammunition for logistical reasons. In a combat zone, the Army or Marine Corps utilize thousands of rifles and hundreds of thousands - if not millions - of rounds in a given period of time. Rifles, handguns and machine-guns must be maintained by the service. Standardization simplifies the effort to some degree.

    L. E. departments and agencies do not.

    In a combat zone, 'collateral damage' is a sad but unavoidable phenomenon. A 'one size fits all' rifle, handgun or machine-gun is utile.

    L. E. departments and agencies cannot allow such.

    Violence is best avoided by the professional by being so qualified he or she can control the matter. Being just good enough to conduct violence generates the problem. Being able to select one's own defense is a proper foundation for being highly skilled.

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