Page 3 of 7 First 123456 ... Last
Like Tree3Likes

Thread: Since when did SWAT Officers start calling themselves "Operators"?

  1. #51
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    southern CA to the northeast
    Posts
    1,717
    Quote Originally Posted by Polo08817 View Post
    I'm really not sure what we're debating.

    If someone wants to call themselves an "operator", I could care less.

    I'm just pointing out that the capability of various SWAT teams are very diverse. I've seen LEOs that were part of a small PD SWAT team who seemed far less capable than competent individuals from an average infantry unit.
    How do you even know? You're not a cop.

    SWAT team's training standards are determined in large part by whatever state they are in. They have to meet the state standards.

  2. #52
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    southern CA to the northeast
    Posts
    1,717
    Quote Originally Posted by Polo08817 View Post

    It's always hilarious how people on this site would take what they see on someone's profile to be the cold hard truth.

    My only knowledge of who you are (or might be) is what you put on your profile.

  3. #53
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    1,070
    It amazes me that some officers seem to think that they are above the "mickey mouse uniform division" once they get out of it. Basically everyone starts as a patrol officer and eventually if they desire, work their way into a different division. However, we are all still.....police officers. Personally, have always had enough pride in being a police officer to where I do not find it necessary to refer to myself by a different title.

    SEALs are part of the SPEC OPS community and have lately managed to pizz off most of the other branches of military due to the great amount of publicity they have received in last couple of years. It is common for a SEAL to be called an operator. It seems that a lot of the folks on SWAT want the same kind of recognition. Sorry, but the majority of SWAT guys and gals couldn't manage the duties of SEALs, but yes, a SEAL could easily perform the duties of SWAT and several former members of them do.

    It also amazes me how many of you know a SEAL or a former SEAL since there are so few of them alive at this time. I would bet that many of you know a guy who CLAIMS to be a SEAL, but is in fact a fake. Anyone who wants to know if a guy claiming to be a SEAL is, just ask him his class number and if he doesn't rattle it off....he is a fake. It isn't classified, it is a matter of public record. To date there have been hundreds and hundreds of cops, doctors, firemen, even members of the military that have been busted as fake SEALs.

    I am not an operator, however I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night.
    Calling an illegal alien an "undocumented immigrant" is like calling a drug dealer an "unlicensed pharmacist"

  4. #54
    It's Complicated
    Iowa #1603's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Iowa
    Posts
    16,255
    Quote Originally Posted by BigDog4907 View Post
    It also amazes me how many of you know a SEAL or a former SEAL since there are so few of them alive at this time. I would bet that many of you know a guy who CLAIMS to be a SEAL, but is in fact a fake. Anyone who wants to know if a guy claiming to be a SEAL is, just ask him his class number and if he doesn't rattle it off....he is a fake. It isn't classified, it is a matter of public record. To date there have been hundreds and hundreds of cops, doctors, firemen, even members of the military that have been busted as fake SEALs.
    The ones I mentioned are confirmed.........................I knew them when the were in the service and I knew them when they were on the various police forces.

    There are PLENTY of former SEALS and SF personnel running around...........they just rarely mention the fact. The ones that brag about it are the ones that are usually fake
    "Arguing with idiots is like playing chess with a pigeon - no matter how good you are, the pigeon will still crap all over the board and strut around like it won anyway."



    I don't know it all, I know a little about a lot and a lot about a little---slamdunc


    I have discussed religion and politics over morning coffee with men who have killed people, you don't scare me.

  5. #55
    Forum Member
    Blackavar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Left Coast
    Posts
    296
    It's kind of like auxiliary police officers calling themselves police officers.
    "Some see private enterprise as a predatory target to be shot, others as a cow to be milked, but few are those who see it as a sturdy horse pulling the wagon."

  6. #56
    Forum Member
    FJDave's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    So Cal
    Posts
    5,075
    *snicker*....

    Quote Originally Posted by Smurfette
    Lord have mercy. You're about as slick as the business side of duct tape.
    Quote Originally Posted by DAL
    You are without doubt a void surrounded by a sphincter muscle.

  7. #57
    Littering and...
    SinePari's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    The Big Road
    Posts
    1,403
    I don't know this Whitcomb dude from Adam, nor do I care. Too many police departments have been infiltrated with non-Special Operations former military service members who have somehow decided to fulfill their military cool guy ambitions through LE. I don't think killing or capturing Tier 1 targets is the primary role of any police ninja squad. I don't think suiting up, getting on a plane, spending 2 weeks in an isolation facility, and planning every last detail of a Son Tay raid, or jumping onto an airfield at nighttime, or simply spending 6 months in some smelly litter box with roads and living among the indigenous population who hate you is ANYWHERE near what LE SWAT squads do. Every swinging Richard with Blackhawk gear and a thigh rig goes home to mama each night, regardless of what SWAT mission they get.

    So for those who have BTDT it's kind of shot across the bow to hear the connotation of "Operator" by those who have not shared their blood and visited quiet funerals of those with that title (that they've earned) who've passed. There are some professionals on those SWAT teams. There are former real operators among them. They are few and far between. I guaran-dayum-tee that there are a few people on this forum who have significant military resumes and major accomplishments, yet they feel no need to be part of SWAT for whatever reason. It's just not their thing, and they understand that the mark of "this team is better than that team" should only be for esprit de corps and friendly competition and that's it.

    Quote Originally Posted by ArkansasFan24 View Post
    I remember being at a staff meeting and reading through a folder of "memos" in 2007. *One of them was addressed to operators, and I was quick to point out the humor in the term. *




    Another officer asked to look at the memo, and I handed it to her. *It was quickly snatched away by a SWAT member who said, "Are you an operator, Officer _____? *I'm an operator." *




    I quickly took it back from him, handed it to her, and clearly remember saying, "Ok, operator, get down to dispatch and start answering the **** phones." *He was....displeased.
    I am the last one who wants to belittle someone for an accomplishment that they feel strongly about, and they should be proud. However, there are some lines that shouldn't be crossed. Back to the OP, I feel this one definite reeks of some sort of superiority complex to belittle those fellow/sister POLICE OFFICERS, as if they're not on par or cannot be trusted with a silly piece of paper. That is the ultimate form of crapping on your boots when it's certainly not deserved. This site is too churchey for me to explain what would happen in that room had somebody done that to me or another officer next to me. I can only say that there would definitely be some butt whoopin going on, regardless of rank or seniority...and I would wipe my arse with the paper and hand it back to the ninja goon who made that remark.

    ///Rant over-SP out///
    Last edited by SinePari; 03-13-2012 at 07:35 PM.

  8. #58
    ops
    ops is offline
    Forum Member
    ops's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Southeast region
    Posts
    437
    Quote Originally Posted by Stpn2me View Post
    The BORTAC Operator Training Course was designed
    to mirror aspects of U.S. Special Operations Forces selection
    courses. The grueling BOTC, which may last
    over a month, begins with physical testing in push-ups,
    sit-ups, pull-ups, a 1.5 mile run and a pistol qualification.
    Those candidates who pass the initial
    testing must then complete a timed six-mile ruck march
    with a weighted pack and be tested in swimming,
    treading water, and drown-proofing.
    After completing the entire testing phase, candidates
    undergo weeks of intense training in small unit tactics,
    operation planning, advanced weapon skills, defensive
    tactics, and airmobile operations. Before graduating
    and putting the BORTAC wings on their uniform,
    candidates must demonstrate the ability to function in a
    team environment under stress and sleep deprivation.
    Upon graduation, BOTC graduates may work alongside
    other operators on their Sector SRT, while learning
    advanced techniques in weapons and tactics.


    Wow, they sound bad a@#. And they get wings on their uniform? That's some good training there! I cant wait to retire and get on ANY police force!
    I'm not sure if the physical fitness tests are the same in BORTAC as they are listed above, but this would be known as "Tuesday" in any good light infantry unit. I'm sure BORTAC selection is grueling, comparatively speaking, in relation to Law Enforcement selection courses, but would pale in comparison with any Military Special Operations Selection Course. Now, I'm certain that my fat *** would have major difficulty in passing this course now, but in my prime when I was serving it would have been a breeze, if indeed these are the standards.

    I'm not a full time SWAT guy, and have only been through a Basic SWAT school, but it was nowhere near as difficult as training that I went through in the 82nd Airborne Division. That said, there are full time teams which have an OPTEMPO every bit as hectic as their Military Special Operations counterparts, and are probably very nearly on par tactically speaking. However, as previously mentioned, LE SWAT teams, and Military Special Operations have remarkably different missions, skill sets,training, and mindsets. Is there some crossover? Certainly, but the two cannot be used interchangeably. For instance, would you want a platoon of Rangers to assault a hostage rescue or barricaded gunman scenario in downtown Atlanta, or would you rather a platoon of Rangers assault a Taliban stronghold in the mountains of Afghanistan? Would you want the Atlanta Metro SWAT team to perform this same mission in Afghan? Or would you want them on the barricaded gunman?

    SWAT teams number one goal is to preserve life at all costs. Military SOF are generally used to shoot bad guys in the face. Teir one units have more finesse that is required as they generally do have hostage rescue as a major skill set, but they are still used often in capture / kill missions.

    Soon we'll see folks calling themselves "Assaulters." Still nothing that anyone should be getting panties twisted up about. In the end, all of our brothers and sisters in LE and in the military are on the same team. Last time that I checked both LEO's and .Mil folks have been getting KIA'd with great frequency. Real operators know what they do and have done, that in itself should be carried with pride as a quiet professional. If LEO's on SWAT teams want to call themselves Operators, then I say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, and I feel they've earned the right to call themselves that or whatever else with the same blood, sweat and tears as their .mil counterparts. Are they the same? Not even close, but each have to navigate equally dangerous, and complex missions, albeit in very different fashions.
    Last edited by ops; 03-13-2012 at 09:04 PM.
    The post above does not constitute legal advice, nor should be construed as such. These are the private opinions of a private citizen and do not represent the opinion nor official capacity of any law enforcement agency.

  9. #59
    Forum Member
    Stpn2me's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    387
    Because many are also M-day soldiers in the ARNG/USAR and I've validated enough NCOs on IMT, LFX, and MOUT lanes to know that some are largely incompetent.

    It's always hilarious how people on this site would take what they see on someone's profile to be the cold hard truth.


    You are talking all this crap and you were only cadre at a training range? For the National Guard? WTF???

    There's ways we can verify stories and I am sure the Moderators here verify who is a cop when they need to.

    It also amazes me how many of you know a SEAL or a former SEAL since there are so few of them alive at this time.

    Dont know where you are getting your info, but I know a good number of SEALs and SF guys. Even after all this time since I was in the unit as a young soldier, we are still friends to this day.

    but it was nowhere near as difficult as training that I went through in the 82nd Airborne Division.

    I commanded a company in the 82nd. I lead a company to Kandahar in OEF 10. Those were some crazy times.

  10. #60
    Forum Boss
    GreenZone09's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    1,106
    Who cares?
    Last edited by GreenZone09; 03-13-2012 at 10:54 PM.


    Quote Originally Posted by mitojo View Post
    I was once thanked by two citizens in one day. Weird.

  11. #61
    Forum Member
    LINY's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    LI, NY
    Posts
    5,799
    Quote Originally Posted by Blackavar View Post
    It's kind of like auxiliary police officers calling themselves police officers.
    That's only if your reading comprehension is on a second grade level.

  12. #62
    Forum Member
    GangGreen712's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Between Boston and DC
    Posts
    1,797
    All this said, I read on ProfessionalSoldiers.com that Special Forces guys don't like being called "operators" and prefer being called "soldiers". Also, I've heard former SOCOM guys refer to SWAT officers as "SWAT operators", so I get the impression that the term is not quite as hot button as we might be making it out to be. Guys in the military don't go through those selection processes to earn the title "operator" they go to earn the title of "SEAL", "Special Forces", "Ranger", etc.
    "If the police have to come get you, they're bringing an @$$ kicking with them!"
    -Chris Rock

  13. #63
    Forum Member
    Blackavar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Left Coast
    Posts
    296
    Quote Originally Posted by LINY View Post
    That's only if your reading comprehension is on a second grade level.
    At first I thought you were referring to your own reading level. Then I realized that was supposed to be some sort of comeback. Seriously, that's the best you can do? That's not even snappy for the purposes of a 'snappy comeback".
    "Some see private enterprise as a predatory target to be shot, others as a cow to be milked, but few are those who see it as a sturdy horse pulling the wagon."

  14. #64
    Forum Member
    valetudo39's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    313
    Quote Originally Posted by SinePari View Post
    I don't know this Whitcomb dude from Adam, nor do I care. Too many police departments have been infiltrated with non-Special Operations former military service members who have somehow decided to fulfill their military cool guy ambitions through LE. I don't think killing or capturing Tier 1 targets is the primary role of any police ninja squad. I don't think suiting up, getting on a plane, spending 2 weeks in an isolation facility, and planning every last detail of a Son Tay raid, or jumping onto an airfield at nighttime, or simply spending 6 months in some smelly litter box with roads and living among the indigenous population who hate you is ANYWHERE near what LE SWAT squads do. Every swinging Richard with Blackhawk gear and a thigh rig goes home to mama each night, regardless of what SWAT mission they get.

    So for those who have BTDT it's kind of shot across the bow to hear the connotation of "Operator" by those who have not shared their blood and visited quiet funerals of those with that title (that they've earned) who've passed. There are some professionals on those SWAT teams. There are former real operators among them. They are few and far between. I guaran-dayum-tee that there are a few people on this forum who have significant military resumes and major accomplishments, yet they feel no need to be part of SWAT for whatever reason. It's just not their thing, and they understand that the mark of "this team is better than that team" should only be for esprit de corps and friendly competition and that's it.



    I am the last one who wants to belittle someone for an accomplishment that they feel strongly about, and they should be proud. However, there are some lines that shouldn't be crossed. Back to the OP, I feel this one definite reeks of some sort of superiority complex to belittle those fellow/sister POLICE OFFICERS, as if they're not on par or cannot be trusted with a silly piece of paper. That is the ultimate form of crapping on your boots when it's certainly not deserved. This site is too churchey for me to explain what would happen in that room had somebody done that to me or another officer next to me. I can only say that there would definitely be some butt whoopin going on, regardless of rank or seniority...and I would wipe my arse with the paper and hand it back to the ninja goon who made that remark.

    ///Rant over-SP out///
    Amen to that.

  15. #65
    Bring the Noise
    dontcallmeradio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    South
    Posts
    1,143
    Quote Originally Posted by GreenZone09 View Post
    Who cares?
    Well said GZ, on another note im dissapointed my name is no longer in the cool club.
    Have you ever fired your gun up in the air and gone "ahhrgh"? -Danny Butterman

    "I'm sure finding that 11mm wrench at the last minute to fix the flux capacitor or whatever gets those guys out of bed in the morning is probably just as much of an adrenaline shot as blowing over a ton of C4 at one time" - CruiserClass

  16. #66
    Critter Cop
    GreenLine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    USofA
    Posts
    856
    Who cares?
    Ditto.

    According to the latest 5.11 catalog, anyone who buys their stuff must be an "operator..."

    Everybody wants to feel special, seemingly be part of something 'elite' (whether they have to earn it or not) and have some kind of (perceived) bragging right. The whole issue plays on those desires and does a great job selling gear and making people feel good. But that's about all.
    "Sir, does this mean that Ann Margaret's not coming?"

  17. #67
    Forum Member
    Stpn2me's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    387
    Yeah dude.

    Just for your info and professional development, grown men dont call each other "dude".

  18. #68
    Equal Height Equal Light

    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    1,391
    Quote Originally Posted by Stpn2me View Post
    Yeah dude.

    Just for your info and professional development, grown men dont call each other "dude".
    Indeed; one time a Team 6 guy was chilling out with a group of Green Berets, and he called someone dude. He was immediately kicked off the teams in disgrace.

  19. #69
    Forum Member
    swat_op506's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Tennessee
    Posts
    1,327
    SinePari- GREAT POST MY FRIEND!

    First, truth in posting: I am a member of my departments part time SWAT team.

    I worked my *** off in my career to try to be the best at what I do, and then worked my *** off to get on our team. I went through a 105 hour basic SWAT class taught by a private training company with instructors from army SRT, Key West PD, Anniston AL PD.
    We train every third Saturday- all day.
    That said, we are unlike many other departments because we integrate SWAT tactics into our patrol officers training. We need them as much as they may need us (actually we need them more) Our folks are trained in what to do before we arrive [intel gathering, perimeter setup, evac of neighbors, eyes on target, etc] as well as what role they play [such as working tightened inner perimeter, catching runners, etc] during the tactical event.
    So basically, we are the ones called when time allows for gearing up and getting the special equipment. Other than that, patrol needs to be able to go after the active shooter because SWAT ain't gonna make it in time, so they must be trained in SWAT style tactics as well.
    All this makes for mutual appreciation of each other.
    No swagger, no "I'm better than you" mentality. Just pride in a great department.

    Just my .02... I'll get off my soapbox now.
    // Operator? Who cares. Like George Carlin used to say, "it's just a fu%$ing word!".
    SUPPORT COP RUN BUSINESSES!!
    Here is mine-
    http://www.ebay.com/sch/tblproducts/...1&_from=&_ipg=

  20. #70
    Not so Special Agent...
    yellowreef's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    CA
    Posts
    2,027
    Quote Originally Posted by ops View Post
    I'm not sure if the physical fitness tests are the same in BORTAC as they are listed above, but this would be known as "Tuesday" in any good light infantry unit. I'm sure BORTAC selection is grueling, comparatively speaking, in relation to Law Enforcement selection courses, but would pale in comparison with any Military Special Operations Selection Course. Now, I'm certain that my fat *** would have major difficulty in passing this course now, but in my prime when I was serving it would have been a breeze, if indeed these are the standards.

    I'm not a full time SWAT guy, and have only been through a Basic SWAT school, but it was nowhere near as difficult as training that I went through in the 82nd Airborne Division. That said, there are full time teams which have an OPTEMPO every bit as hectic as their Military Special Operations counterparts, and are probably very nearly on par tactically speaking. However, as previously mentioned, LE SWAT teams, and Military Special Operations have remarkably different missions, skill sets,training, and mindsets. Is there some crossover? Certainly, but the two cannot be used interchangeably. For instance, would you want a platoon of Rangers to assault a hostage rescue or barricaded gunman scenario in downtown Atlanta, or would you rather a platoon of Rangers assault a Taliban stronghold in the mountains of Afghanistan? Would you want the Atlanta Metro SWAT team to perform this same mission in Afghan? Or would you want them on the barricaded gunman?

    SWAT teams number one goal is to preserve life at all costs. Military SOF are generally used to shoot bad guys in the face. Teir one units have more finesse that is required as they generally do have hostage rescue as a major skill set, but they are still used often in capture / kill missions.

    Soon we'll see folks calling themselves "Assaulters." Still nothing that anyone should be getting panties twisted up about. In the end, all of our brothers and sisters in LE and in the military are on the same team. Last time that I checked both LEO's and .Mil folks have been getting KIA'd with great frequency. Real operators know what they do and have done, that in itself should be carried with pride as a quiet professional. If LEO's on SWAT teams want to call themselves Operators, then I say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, and I feel they've earned the right to call themselves that or whatever else with the same blood, sweat and tears as their .mil counterparts. Are they the same? Not even close, but each have to navigate equally dangerous, and complex missions, albeit in very different fashions.
    Umm, you're going off of a PR write up. I know several young PT studs with prior military that haven't made the BORTAC cut. And by the way, they BORTAC guys also do overseas missions. I'm not saying they're SEALs, but they're not your run of the mill SWAT team either.
    "You don't want the truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall... I have neither the time, nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it."

  21. #71
    ops
    ops is offline
    Forum Member
    ops's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Southeast region
    Posts
    437
    Yeah that's why I was unsure and said "IF these are the standards." I suspected this wasn't the actual standards and I also provided the caveat that "my fat *** couldn't do it now." So, what are the actual standards of selection? Since BORTAC and FBI HRT are generally seen as the "creme de la creme" of LE SWAT, let's see how their selection courses stack up with military selection courses. I'd be willing to bet they're nowhere near as difficult as the average field problem in the Marines or 82nd, let alone SOF selection. Are you saying that these LE selection courses are harder than Marine Corps Boot Camp for instance? Again. we aren't even talking about SOF here, just regular light infantry. This could make for an interesting time. I'll start compiling the data that I can find, and we'll make a comparison.
    Last edited by ops; 03-14-2012 at 02:52 PM.
    The post above does not constitute legal advice, nor should be construed as such. These are the private opinions of a private citizen and do not represent the opinion nor official capacity of any law enforcement agency.

  22. #72
    One man Wolfpack
    M-11's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    The Sand Dune...
    Posts
    4,234
    This conversation is useless.

    Difficulty is different in everyone's mind.

    M-11
    “All men dream...... But not equally..
    Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it is vanity;
    but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men,
    for they act their dreams with open eyes to make it possible.....”

    TE Lawrence

  23. #73
    Not so Special Agent...
    yellowreef's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    CA
    Posts
    2,027
    Quote Originally Posted by ops View Post
    Are you saying that these LE selection courses are harder than Marine Corps Boot Camp for instance? Again. we aren't even talking about SOF here, just regular light infantry. This could make for an interesting time. I'll start compiling the data that I can find, and we'll make a comparison.
    Yes, speaking specifically of BORTAC, I am saying there are guys that could easily pass Marine Corps boot camp that would not pass the BORTAC training course. Now, notice I am talking about the course. I'm sure anyone that is physically fit enough to pass Marine boot camp could pass the PT test in order to apply to BORTAC.
    "You don't want the truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall... I have neither the time, nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it."

  24. #74
    ops
    ops is offline
    Forum Member
    ops's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Southeast region
    Posts
    437
    "This conversation is useless.

    Difficulty is different in everyone's mind.

    M-11"



    Agreed.........
    The post above does not constitute legal advice, nor should be construed as such. These are the private opinions of a private citizen and do not represent the opinion nor official capacity of any law enforcement agency.

  25. #75
    Forum Member
    valetudo39's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    313
    Quote Originally Posted by yellowreef View Post
    Yes, speaking specifically of BORTAC, I am saying there are guys that could easily pass Marine Corps boot camp that would not pass the BORTAC training course. Now, notice I am talking about the course. I'm sure anyone that is physically fit enough to pass Marine boot camp could pass the PT test in order to apply to BORTAC.
    Marine Corps boot camp is not only physically hard there is also a mental aspect to it as well. Some people ,who are really physically fit, don't make it through boot camp because the stress placed on them and **** on themselves with all the stress they go through. Obviously you did not go through Marine Corps boot camp or you would know this already.
    Last edited by valetudo39; 03-14-2012 at 04:14 PM.

Page 3 of 7 First 123456 ... Last

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Log in

Click here to log in or register