03-13-2012, 04:11 PM #51
- Join Date
- Apr 2006
- southern CA to the northeast
03-13-2012, 04:20 PM #52
- Join Date
- Apr 2006
- southern CA to the northeast
03-13-2012, 04:28 PM #53
- Join Date
- Mar 2010
It amazes me that some officers seem to think that they are above the "mickey mouse uniform division" once they get out of it. Basically everyone starts as a patrol officer and eventually if they desire, work their way into a different division. However, we are all still.....police officers. Personally, have always had enough pride in being a police officer to where I do not find it necessary to refer to myself by a different title.
SEALs are part of the SPEC OPS community and have lately managed to pizz off most of the other branches of military due to the great amount of publicity they have received in last couple of years. It is common for a SEAL to be called an operator. It seems that a lot of the folks on SWAT want the same kind of recognition. Sorry, but the majority of SWAT guys and gals couldn't manage the duties of SEALs, but yes, a SEAL could easily perform the duties of SWAT and several former members of them do.
It also amazes me how many of you know a SEAL or a former SEAL since there are so few of them alive at this time. I would bet that many of you know a guy who CLAIMS to be a SEAL, but is in fact a fake. Anyone who wants to know if a guy claiming to be a SEAL is, just ask him his class number and if he doesn't rattle it off....he is a fake. It isn't classified, it is a matter of public record. To date there have been hundreds and hundreds of cops, doctors, firemen, even members of the military that have been busted as fake SEALs.
I am not an operator, however I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night.Calling an illegal alien an "undocumented immigrant" is like calling a drug dealer an "unlicensed pharmacist"
03-13-2012, 04:40 PM #54
There are PLENTY of former SEALS and SF personnel running around...........they just rarely mention the fact. The ones that brag about it are the ones that are usually fake
It's hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it's damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person.----------Bill Murray on twitter.
"Arguing with idiots is like playing chess with a pigeon - no matter how good you are, the pigeon will still crap all over the board and strut around like it won anyway."
I have discussed religion and politics over morning coffee with men who have killed people, you don't scare me.
03-13-2012, 06:41 PM #55
It's kind of like auxiliary police officers calling themselves police officers."Some see private enterprise as a predatory target to be shot, others as a cow to be milked, but few are those who see it as a sturdy horse pulling the wagon."
03-13-2012, 07:00 PM #56
Originally Posted by SmurfetteOriginally Posted by DAL
03-13-2012, 07:27 PM #57
I don't know this Whitcomb dude from Adam, nor do I care. Too many police departments have been infiltrated with non-Special Operations former military service members who have somehow decided to fulfill their military cool guy ambitions through LE. I don't think killing or capturing Tier 1 targets is the primary role of any police ninja squad. I don't think suiting up, getting on a plane, spending 2 weeks in an isolation facility, and planning every last detail of a Son Tay raid, or jumping onto an airfield at nighttime, or simply spending 6 months in some smelly litter box with roads and living among the indigenous population who hate you is ANYWHERE near what LE SWAT squads do. Every swinging Richard with Blackhawk gear and a thigh rig goes home to mama each night, regardless of what SWAT mission they get.
So for those who have BTDT it's kind of shot across the bow to hear the connotation of "Operator" by those who have not shared their blood and visited quiet funerals of those with that title (that they've earned) who've passed. There are some professionals on those SWAT teams. There are former real operators among them. They are few and far between. I guaran-dayum-tee that there are a few people on this forum who have significant military resumes and major accomplishments, yet they feel no need to be part of SWAT for whatever reason. It's just not their thing, and they understand that the mark of "this team is better than that team" should only be for esprit de corps and friendly competition and that's it.
///Rant over-SP out///
Last edited by SinePari; 03-13-2012 at 07:35 PM.
03-13-2012, 08:07 PM #58
I'm not a full time SWAT guy, and have only been through a Basic SWAT school, but it was nowhere near as difficult as training that I went through in the 82nd Airborne Division. That said, there are full time teams which have an OPTEMPO every bit as hectic as their Military Special Operations counterparts, and are probably very nearly on par tactically speaking. However, as previously mentioned, LE SWAT teams, and Military Special Operations have remarkably different missions, skill sets,training, and mindsets. Is there some crossover? Certainly, but the two cannot be used interchangeably. For instance, would you want a platoon of Rangers to assault a hostage rescue or barricaded gunman scenario in downtown Atlanta, or would you rather a platoon of Rangers assault a Taliban stronghold in the mountains of Afghanistan? Would you want the Atlanta Metro SWAT team to perform this same mission in Afghan? Or would you want them on the barricaded gunman?
SWAT teams number one goal is to preserve life at all costs. Military SOF are generally used to shoot bad guys in the face. Teir one units have more finesse that is required as they generally do have hostage rescue as a major skill set, but they are still used often in capture / kill missions.
Soon we'll see folks calling themselves "Assaulters." Still nothing that anyone should be getting panties twisted up about. In the end, all of our brothers and sisters in LE and in the military are on the same team. Last time that I checked both LEO's and .Mil folks have been getting KIA'd with great frequency. Real operators know what they do and have done, that in itself should be carried with pride as a quiet professional. If LEO's on SWAT teams want to call themselves Operators, then I say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, and I feel they've earned the right to call themselves that or whatever else with the same blood, sweat and tears as their .mil counterparts. Are they the same? Not even close, but each have to navigate equally dangerous, and complex missions, albeit in very different fashions.
Last edited by ops; 03-13-2012 at 09:04 PM.The post above does not constitute legal advice, nor should be construed as such. These are the private opinions of a private citizen and do not represent the opinion nor official capacity of any law enforcement agency.
03-13-2012, 10:37 PM #59
Because many are also M-day soldiers in the ARNG/USAR and I've validated enough NCOs on IMT, LFX, and MOUT lanes to know that some are largely incompetent.
It's always hilarious how people on this site would take what they see on someone's profile to be the cold hard truth.
You are talking all this crap and you were only cadre at a training range? For the National Guard? WTF???
There's ways we can verify stories and I am sure the Moderators here verify who is a cop when they need to.
It also amazes me how many of you know a SEAL or a former SEAL since there are so few of them alive at this time.
Dont know where you are getting your info, but I know a good number of SEALs and SF guys. Even after all this time since I was in the unit as a young soldier, we are still friends to this day.
but it was nowhere near as difficult as training that I went through in the 82nd Airborne Division.
I commanded a company in the 82nd. I lead a company to Kandahar in OEF 10. Those were some crazy times.
03-13-2012, 10:45 PM #60
03-13-2012, 11:26 PM #61
03-13-2012, 11:38 PM #62
All this said, I read on ProfessionalSoldiers.com that Special Forces guys don't like being called "operators" and prefer being called "soldiers". Also, I've heard former SOCOM guys refer to SWAT officers as "SWAT operators", so I get the impression that the term is not quite as hot button as we might be making it out to be. Guys in the military don't go through those selection processes to earn the title "operator" they go to earn the title of "SEAL", "Special Forces", "Ranger", etc."If the police have to come get you, they're bringing an @$$ kicking with them!"
03-13-2012, 11:52 PM #63"Some see private enterprise as a predatory target to be shot, others as a cow to be milked, but few are those who see it as a sturdy horse pulling the wagon."
03-14-2012, 02:44 AM #64
03-14-2012, 03:28 AM #65Have you ever fired your gun up in the air and gone "ahhrgh"? -Danny Butterman
"I'm sure finding that 11mm wrench at the last minute to fix the flux capacitor or whatever gets those guys out of bed in the morning is probably just as much of an adrenaline shot as blowing over a ton of C4 at one time" - CruiserClass
03-14-2012, 09:46 AM #66Who cares?
According to the latest 5.11 catalog, anyone who buys their stuff must be an "operator..."
Everybody wants to feel special, seemingly be part of something 'elite' (whether they have to earn it or not) and have some kind of (perceived) bragging right. The whole issue plays on those desires and does a great job selling gear and making people feel good. But that's about all."Sir, does this mean that Ann Margaret's not coming?"
03-14-2012, 09:59 AM #67
Just for your info and professional development, grown men dont call each other "dude".
03-14-2012, 10:49 AM #68
- Join Date
- Mar 2009
03-14-2012, 11:25 AM #69
SinePari- GREAT POST MY FRIEND!
First, truth in posting: I am a member of my departments part time SWAT team.
I worked my *** off in my career to try to be the best at what I do, and then worked my *** off to get on our team. I went through a 105 hour basic SWAT class taught by a private training company with instructors from army SRT, Key West PD, Anniston AL PD.
We train every third Saturday- all day.
That said, we are unlike many other departments because we integrate SWAT tactics into our patrol officers training. We need them as much as they may need us (actually we need them more) Our folks are trained in what to do before we arrive [intel gathering, perimeter setup, evac of neighbors, eyes on target, etc] as well as what role they play [such as working tightened inner perimeter, catching runners, etc] during the tactical event.
So basically, we are the ones called when time allows for gearing up and getting the special equipment. Other than that, patrol needs to be able to go after the active shooter because SWAT ain't gonna make it in time, so they must be trained in SWAT style tactics as well.
All this makes for mutual appreciation of each other.
No swagger, no "I'm better than you" mentality. Just pride in a great department.
Just my .02... I'll get off my soapbox now.
// Operator? Who cares. Like George Carlin used to say, "it's just a fu%$ing word!".
03-14-2012, 01:25 PM #70"You don't want the truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall... I have neither the time, nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it."
03-14-2012, 02:50 PM #71
Yeah that's why I was unsure and said "IF these are the standards." I suspected this wasn't the actual standards and I also provided the caveat that "my fat *** couldn't do it now." So, what are the actual standards of selection? Since BORTAC and FBI HRT are generally seen as the "creme de la creme" of LE SWAT, let's see how their selection courses stack up with military selection courses. I'd be willing to bet they're nowhere near as difficult as the average field problem in the Marines or 82nd, let alone SOF selection. Are you saying that these LE selection courses are harder than Marine Corps Boot Camp for instance? Again. we aren't even talking about SOF here, just regular light infantry. This could make for an interesting time. I'll start compiling the data that I can find, and we'll make a comparison.
Last edited by ops; 03-14-2012 at 02:52 PM.The post above does not constitute legal advice, nor should be construed as such. These are the private opinions of a private citizen and do not represent the opinion nor official capacity of any law enforcement agency.
03-14-2012, 03:16 PM #72
This conversation is useless.
Difficulty is different in everyone's mind.
M-11“All men dream...... But not equally..
Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it is vanity;
but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men,
for they act their dreams with open eyes to make it possible.....”
03-14-2012, 03:44 PM #73"You don't want the truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall... I have neither the time, nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it."
03-14-2012, 04:10 PM #74
"This conversation is useless.
Difficulty is different in everyone's mind.
Agreed.........The post above does not constitute legal advice, nor should be construed as such. These are the private opinions of a private citizen and do not represent the opinion nor official capacity of any law enforcement agency.
03-14-2012, 04:11 PM #75
Last edited by valetudo39; 03-14-2012 at 04:14 PM.