View Poll Results: Should California be a Shall Issue CCW state

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  • Yup let's do it so we can keep our rights and possibly lower the crime rate

    55 84.62%
  • Nope, h*** no, not a good idea

    10 15.38%
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Thread: California may become a Shall Issue CCW state

  1. #1
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    California may become a Shall Issue CCW state

    I read on the Front Sight web page that there is gonna be a petition to put a proposition on the ballot making California a Shall Issue CCW state. I think it's a good idea and may help lower our crime rate. Then again, I can see the argument against it as some fools might go overboard with the 417's for minor things. I'm gonna sign it and if it makes it to the ballot, I'll vote for it. What do you guys think?
    God made perfect cops.......The rest he put in cars.

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    I did my first Master's thesis on the impact on violent crime after implementation of shall-issue laws in states, and in every single case, violent crime went down (especially Florida, where the drop was dramatic), while less than 1/10th of 1% of the issued permits were later revoked or suspended due to criminal conduct.
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    In order for this to be effective, there has to be a way for all law enforcement agencies to check if someone has a CCW.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SpecialBlend View Post
    In order for this to be effective, there has to be a way for all law enforcement agencies to check if someone has a CCW.
    In states that routinely issue Caw's there's generally a requirement for the possessor to advise LE that he has it upon contact. Failing to notify is unlawful and can result in suspension or revocation of the permit. When my dept responds to calls, dispatch runs the RP and known suspects for weapons registered. Im sure there can be a CLETS input for permits.
    God made perfect cops.......The rest he put in cars.

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    I doubt it will happen but we can hope.
    If guns cause crime, all of mine are defective.

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    I think it'll take several court cases before that happens. San Diego seems to be the place where the first will happen, with the appeal on Peruta. One of the main reasons the ruled against him is because "CA has an open carry provision" or some similar wording. Now that CA doesn't have UOC , the door is open to challenge the "may issue" wording. Of course, case law is leaning the other way at the moment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SpecialBlend View Post
    In order for this to be effective, there has to be a way for all law enforcement agencies to check if someone has a CCW.
    When you run someone it comes up in CLETS. I have done several traffic stops where it shows on their NCIC that they have a CCW

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    There are 2 cases in Calif dealing with concealed carry.
    Richards v. Prieto. To stipluate that self defense is "good cause" and not being prohibited from owning a firearm is "good moral character". Some counties already issue using these definitions.
    Peruta v. County of San Diego deals with the arbritrary issuing of a concealed carry license.
    Both of these cases are stayed pending the outcome of Nordyke v. King, a ban on gun shows on county property.
    The issue seems to be whether strict or intermediate scrutiny is used to decide these cases.
    Other cases in other states are also listed on this site.

    http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/in...st_and_Present

    AB 144 did not ban unloaded open carry. The bill has 116 exepemtions. It is just over regulated.
    Here is a site to all the exemptions.
    http://calgunsfoundation.org/resourc...is-a-faqs.html Click "download"
    Last edited by Rossi357; 01-12-2012 at 02:18 PM.

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    CCW permits do not show up in GA. There is no way of knowing unless you're able to check the gcic/ncic log and deduce the numerical ID of the probate court that ordered your warrant check. (and that's just assuming you're able to check the logs) You are also not required to notify LE when stopped.

    IMO, they should not be tagged to your DL. You are possibly creating a threat in your mind when one doesn't exist. There's no reason you shouldn't just exercise your usual precautions when dealing with any unknown person.

    My personal rule is not to tell the officer unless I'm asked or ordered out of the car. And at that point, I will clearly tell him while both my hands are on the steering wheel.

    I however realize that peoples mindsets vary greatly in the SE compared to California. I just see certain cities making the restrictions impossible for permit holders if something like this passed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SpecialBlend View Post
    In order for this to be effective, there has to be a way for all law enforcement agencies to check if someone has a CCW.
    Whenever we run someone, the computer software automatically searches for the status of driver's licenses/state ID's, arrest warrants, criminal record, and gun permits issued to the person.
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    CCW in CA? Never happen.

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    An initiative would not get the required votes. Most California voters (and legislators) are against the carrying of weapons. If a court somehow defined a desire for self-protection to be "good cause" for anyone, the legislature would change the law to use some more restrictive term. To define "good character" to equate to not being prohibited from owning a firearm is absurd.

    I should add that I do not think that the legislature could have intended for a desire for self-protection, without more, to constitute good cause, because anyone can assert such a desire, thereby making the requirement superfluous. Therefore, interpreting the term that way would be unreasonable. In fact, statistics show that violent crime rates have declined, so that the general need for self protection is probably only half what it was 30 years ago.
    Last edited by DAL; 01-12-2012 at 09:16 PM.
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    So would the CCW be a state wide then and no longer having to go the sheriff offices and apply?
    I'd rather be judged by 12 rather carried by 6.

    It should be noted that any and all post that are made or based on my own thought and opinions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FJDave View Post
    CCW in CA? Never happen.
    It already is, Not Legally mind you, but it is!.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by DAL View Post
    An initiative would not get the required votes. Most California voters (and legislators) are against the carrying of weapons. If a court somehow defined a desire for self-protection to be "good cause" for anyone, the legislature would change the law to use some more restrictive term. To define "good character" to equate to not being prohibited from owning a firearm is absurd.

    I should add that I do not think that the legislature could have intended for a desire for self-protection, without more, to constitute good cause, because anyone can assert such a desire, thereby making the requirement superfluous. Therefore, interpreting the term that way would be unreasonable. In fact, statistics show that violent crime rates have declined, so that the general need for self protection is probably only half what it was 30 years ago.
    You are probably right that a ballot iniative would never pass.
    Many counties are already defining self defense as good cause, in spite of what the legislature may or may not have intended.
    The 2nd amendment codifies the right to self defense that has always existed. (see the Heller decision) I suspect Calif will go shall issue after the next Supreme Court session. (june 2013) Maybe before then, depending on the Nordyke decision.
    As far as defining "good moral character" good luck on that one.
    Contrary to your opinion, the Bill of Rights is not the Bill of needs.
    Would you stop wearing your seat belt because traffice accidents are at a all time low? Would you toss your fire extinguisher because homes are less likely to catch fire than 20 yrs ago?

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    The Second Amendment is not a codification of the right to self defense. It is a restriction on abridging the right to keep and bear arms as the right existed at the time the Constitution was ratified.

    I think your prognostications about what the Supreme Court will do are pure fantasy, born of wishful thinking. The Court could barely muster enough votes to hold that an individual has a right to possess a handgun in his home.

    It is not my opinion that the Bill of Rights is a "Bill of needs" but it is my opinion that I know a lot more about it than you do. Moreover, I don't have a stake in the outcome of the battle, so I can be more objective and base my assessment on legal knowledge, legal precedent, and the political winds.

    Under your definition, could anyone ever be unable to show "good cause"? What is the point of inserting that limitation?
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    Quote Originally Posted by DAL View Post
    Under your definition, could anyone ever be unable to show "good cause"? What is the point of inserting that limitation?
    You forgot that the 14th amendment. No one may be deprived of a right without due process of law.
    Convicted felons, ajudicated mentally ill, and someone under a restraining order cannot show good cause.
    In fact, statistics show that violent crime rates have declined, so that the general need for self protection is probably only half what it was 30 years ago.

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    I am fully aware of the Fourteenth Amendment and did not forget it. The Fourteenth Amendment was the vehicle for the Supreme Court's holding that the Second Amendment applies to the states.

    My reference to need is to point out that a desire for a firearm for self protection demonstrates less cause than it did 30 years ago, and when the "good cause" requirement was put in the CCW statute.

    I would think that convicted felons have better cause to have a firearm for self-defense than the average citizen, because they are more likely to be victims of violent crimes. Their applications run aground because of bad moral character.

    What you or I think would prefer is not the test for interpreting a statute.
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    Quote Originally Posted by laco1x View Post
    It already is, Not Legally mind you, but it is!.....
    +1

    HR218 was decent legislation, I can now carry in Chicago and DC without worrying about becoming a criminal.

    Ca should take a hard look at its neighbors firearms laws, in particular Az, armed citizens are not usually a LEO issue, armed criminals are.

    I always thought you folks in Ca had open minds.

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    Almost is now. All counties I'm aware of who have been threatened by lawsuits, (Sac, etc) have knuckled under and now accept "self defense" or similar as "justification".

    Symbolically removing the requirement for "justification" (Do I need justification to vote? Walk down the street?) would be nice... removing the requirement for a permit at all would be better.

    Quote Originally Posted by SpecialBlend View Post
    In order for this to be effective, there has to be a way for all law enforcement agencies to check if someone has a CCW.
    Just the opposite. It's none of their business.

    Is there a way to check if RayRAy is carrying his G-lock Fo-Tay today?

    Why then would you need such a check for anyone else?
    Last edited by tanksoldier; 01-18-2012 at 05:33 PM.
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    Gun control is not about guns. It's about control. If gun control worked, Calif would have one lowest gun crime rates in the US.
    I would be happy if we had Nevada carry here. Open carry without a permit..concealed carry with permit. (shall issue LTC) When I go to Nevada, I open carry my PMK .380. I never get a second look from anyone.
    ComicGuy likes this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FlyingPig1 View Post
    When you run someone it comes up in CLETS. I have done several traffic stops where it shows on their NCIC that they have a CCW
    We get ccw hits too
    Gotta catch em allll.........

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rossi357 View Post
    Gun control is not about guns. It's about control. If gun control worked, Calif would have one lowest gun crime rates in the US.
    I would be happy if we had Nevada carry here. Open carry without a permit..concealed carry with permit. (shall issue LTC) When I go to Nevada, I open carry my PMK .380. I never get a second look from anyone.
    Agreed!

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rossi357 View Post
    When I go to Nevada, I open carry my PMK .380. I never get a second look from anyone.
    Police in the Las Vegas area say otherwise, and you would get tossed out of casinos if you tried it.
    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. -- Aldous Huxley
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    All gun laws in Nev are pre empted by state law. Open carry is legal in Nev. This includes Las Vegas. If you know otherwise, please copy paste the statute that outlaws it.
    Clark County requires residents to register their guns with the Police, and you are issued a "blue card". There is no registration requirement in the rest of the state.
    Casinos are like any other private business. They can ask you to leave. If you refuse, you can be trespassed.
    Last edited by Rossi357; 01-20-2012 at 03:39 AM.

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