Thread: K9 Threats

  1. #1
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    82

    K9 Threats

    Problem: aggressive dogs when doing entries on warrants.

    I am in search of a low penetration round or other similar proven solution against K9 threats, for deployment in an indoor residential environment. Can be a dedicated weapon system, such as a 12 Gauge (anyone tried using breaching rounds, or other special purpose ammo for this purpose?) or similar weapon platform. The main concern is during a downward shot which likely will end up in the floor, but reducing overpenetration risk into a residence below, in a multi unit building.

    Looking for a low penetration/rapid stop tool for when entry is made, and there is a known aggressive dog threat present. Anyone out there with some creative solutions to this issue, I would like to hear from you. If it's sensitive for posting, feel free to PM me.

    Thanks in advance!

  2. #2
    Annoyed, amazed & amused!
    Kieth M.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Front Range of CO
    Posts
    8,483
    When dog shootings were on the rise at LAPD, they issued Co2 fire extinguishers to all the stations for use with aggressive dogs.

    It seems that the cold, frosty blast on their noses renders their sniffers useless and they will run away to try and figure out the problem, rather than stand and fight over it

    Now, for your next logical question...have I seen it done? Nope. Never even heard if ANYONE ever used it and found it successful.

    Since you're merely in the reasearch phase, perhaps you'll have to experiment...
    "Many times, I have thoughts and feelings which can only be expressed through dance!" - Bender, Futurama

    "Ranking right up there with 'No good deed goes unpunished' are:

    'Sooner or later, we just might outlive our usefulness to others' and...

    'Sometimes it's very possible to push the most loving and loyal person, beyond the point where they no longer give a 5h!t'"
    - Yours truly

  3. #3
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    82
    Yes, I have heard of that response, but I have not seen it deployed.

  4. #4
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    139
    We used suppressed .22 pistols and they worked like a champ, granted it wasn't residential warrants, but the dynamics are the same.

  5. #5
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Maine
    Posts
    430
    We have a Ruger 10/22 for discreet pest removal. It works ok when you have time to pick your shot, but it's nothing I'd want to risk my butt on in a dynamic entry.

    In my personal experience I have found that large aggressive dogs need every bit as much gun as a large aggressive person. Having said that if you really want a dedicated dog stopper with a low threat of over penetrating, then you might have just found the one true use for a .410 revolver.

    As far as the CO2 extinguisher goes, I have used those and they work great. Just remember to bring a big one.

    Here's a good link to a DOJ Study, called "The problem of dog related incidents and encounters".

    http://www.nationalcanineresearchcou...nters%20sm.pdf
    Forti Fors Bona

  6. #6
    Oh no, it's da Po-Po
    Blackdog F4i's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Indiana
    Posts
    4,821
    Federal TRU223E from a suppressed M4 does the job. The last puppy I had to put down with it dropped on the spot and no exit wound.

    The TRU223E is our current duty round.

    I would not want to test the effectiveness of a .22LR on a charging pit or Sheppard. Also remember that on an entry, and armed suspect is the primary concern. Dog bites are seldom lethal, gunshots can be. I don't want to be the guy on the stack up front with a .22 pistol. Understand, I HAVE a suppressed .22. It has it's purposes. It doesn't belong in the stack.
    "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - George Orwell
    8541tactical.com - Ammo Wallets

  7. #7
    Forum Member
    AJLEO's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    AZ/NJ
    Posts
    172

  8. #8
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    82
    Thanks for the input, and ideas...

    We have the short barrel suppressed same as yours, Blackdog, and we also use TAP.

  9. #9
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    82
    Quote Originally Posted by fyrdog View Post
    We have a Ruger 10/22 for discreet pest removal. It works ok when you have time to pick your shot, but it's nothing I'd want to risk my butt on in a dynamic entry.

    In my personal experience I have found that large aggressive dogs need every bit as much gun as a large aggressive person. Having said that if you really want a dedicated dog stopper with a low threat of over penetrating, then you might have just found the one true use for a .410 revolver.

    As far as the CO2 extinguisher goes, I have used those and they work great. Just remember to bring a big one.

    Here's a good link to a DOJ Study, called "The problem of dog related incidents and encounters".

    http://www.nationalcanineresearchcou...nters%20sm.pdf
    Thanks for the link...appreciate it!

  10. #10
    Caution: Unvetted member.
    KenW.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Out West
    Posts
    3,480
    Just have the new guy pick up a pound of hamburger. Buy the dog's friendship.
    I am concerned for the security of our great Nation; not so much because of any threat from without, but because of the insidious forces working from within.

    Douglas MacArthur

  11. #11
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    California
    Posts
    181
    As the paper on "The Problem of Dog-Related Incidents and Encounters" suggests, I've used pepper spray with 100% success. Nice thing about pepper spray, can wear it on my belt, and it's available to me when needed.

  12. #12
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    1,296
    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog F4i View Post
    Also remember that on an entry, and armed suspect is the primary concern. Dog bites are seldom lethal, gunshots can be.
    ^^^This^^^

    You wouldn't want to be lugging a fire extinguisher that takes 2 hands to use in case there is an aggressive dog when your primary concern is the human inside.

    Any dog is going to act/seem "aggressive" when a bunch of strangers break into his house while yelling "search warrant" at the top of their lungs, it's a shame that they die because their owners are a-holes.

    My Boxer is harmless and sweet to anyone who knows him, but he'll clearly scare the crap out of someone who breaks in.

  13. #13
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    722
    I've used a liberal dosing of OC to stop dogs.

  14. #14
    Forum Member
    AxleFoley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    IL
    Posts
    474
    with an entry team, I would think OC risks contaminating the whole area including the blue team

  15. #15
    Oh no, it's da Po-Po
    Blackdog F4i's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Indiana
    Posts
    4,821
    Quote Originally Posted by AxleFoley View Post
    with an entry team, I would think OC risks contaminating the whole area including the blue team
    If your team doesn't train with protective gear, then that is a whole separate deficiency that needs to be addressed.

    However I will again state that the PRIMARY reason that a SWAT team is making the service needs to be the top concern. SWAT teams rarely make a warrant service just because there is a dog on scene. That is what Animal Control is for. SWAT makes a service because there is a dangerous SUSPECT on scene. That needs to be addressed first.
    "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - George Orwell
    8541tactical.com - Ammo Wallets

  16. #16
    Forum Member
    ArkansasFan24's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Arkansas
    Posts
    3,287
    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog F4i View Post
    Federal TRU223E from a suppressed M4 does the job. The last puppy I had to put down with it dropped on the spot and no exit wound.

    The TRU223E is our current duty round.

    I would not want to test the effectiveness of a .22LR on a charging pit or Sheppard. Also remember that on an entry, and armed suspect is the primary concern. Dog bites are seldom lethal, gunshots can be. I don't want to be the guy on the stack up front with a .22 pistol. Understand, I HAVE a suppressed .22. It has it's purposes. It doesn't belong in the stack.
    I've always gotten the idea that you carry around quite a few firearms while on-duty.

  17. #17
    Forum Member
    ArkansasFan24's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Arkansas
    Posts
    3,287
    Quote Originally Posted by KenW. View Post
    Just have the new guy pick up a pound of hamburger. Buy the dog's friendship.
    And the new guy can stand in the stack throwing balls of hamburger meat at would be assailants. He might even stash them in a tactical meat bandalier.

  18. #18
    Oh no, it's da Po-Po
    Blackdog F4i's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Indiana
    Posts
    4,821
    Quote Originally Posted by ArkansasFan24 View Post
    I've always gotten the idea that you carry around quite a few firearms while on-duty.
    I don't have the Suppressed P22 with me on duty. It's my toy.

    I do have several options in the trunk. Different problems require different solutions. However the biggest pain is maintaining current maintenance and qualifications for each option.
    "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - George Orwell
    8541tactical.com - Ammo Wallets

  19. #19
    Forum Member
    Eastside's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    373
    In the Met before I was handed all sorts of toys in Canada, we used fire extinguishers, it stops them dead in their tracks, also you have the huge bonus of then no departmental review once shots are fired. We used the small PSU (Riot team) style ones which can be carried on the legs, if that didnt work a swift kick in the nose worked well. Is it really necessary to shoot the dog because its barking?? I understand if its savaging the team, but on all the entries we did there (unarmed but with shields and batons) and with making enough noise, most pooches either ran, froze and ****ed themselves.
    "Well, I never had an invisible friend when I was young, but I'm sure that if I did, it would be Constable Smiley."

  20. #20
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    California
    Posts
    14
    Based on your post, and the question you asked, I do not have a "creative" solution. But I will share my "proven" experience. As a State Parole Agent I enter into houses of convicted felons on a daily basis. I am armed with my duty weapon (a H&K .40 cal handgun), OC, a baton, training, my presence of mind, ...but nothing more.

    The day of my OIS vs. a dog, I approached a house, like most days, with no idea what lay ahead of me. As I was walking to the entrance, one of the residences came out of the house asking what I was doing there. Within less than a second, his 100+ lbs pit bull charged from inside the house directly at me - showing signs of an eminent attack.

    The canine closed the 40’-50’ distance in a remarkably short time. From the time I saw the animal, and ordered the occupant to control his dog, to the time I drew my weapon was seemingly instantaneously. In that same time, the animal, still at full charge, was within 6’.

    I did not allow the dog to close his attack to 5’.

    A single shot eliminated the threat. That single shot was to the dog’s lower jaw, which was opened to bite me. The shot passed through the lower jaw, entered the sternum, and instantly stopped the charging animal. My only peace is in knowing the dog was put out of any misery he might have felt almost instantly.

    I absolutely realize the dog was simply protecting those things it found important. I fault the parolee for not having the dog contained (BTW, a condition of his parole). But like the dog, I too was protecting those things important to me.

    That evening, I was home with my family. I was received with a hug from my wife and a look from her that said, “I now realize the time you spend at the range is more for our family than it is for you.” I fully understand that I MIGHT have been able to deploy another tool...OC, baton, a swift kick, etc. And, reading from the article posted above...I guess MOST bites / attacks are not serious. But here is my take. Given the choice between being in the group that IS seriously harmed and stopping the threat directly in front of me, I'm going with the option I train with most, hold confidence in most, and recognize as the most potent way to mitigate an imminent threat.

    That solution was found with my department issue .40 round.

  21. #21
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    136
    The CO2 fire extinguishers work like a charm. They have a dedicated position in our stack when we are entering a house known to have dangerous dogs. Of all the tricks I have seen used, the extinguisher seems to have the most lasting effect. For whatever reason dogs are terrified of it and run and hide until we are gone.

  22. #22
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    82
    All of this info is greatly appreciated, and it seems that this thread has generated some true thought and interest in an issue common to most of us.

    We are just trying to stay ahead of the curve on something we are seeing more of in our area. Even a minor bite can be a distraction from the task at hand, so we are just evaluating options on how to be best prepped for most eventualities.

    Thanks for the input, guys. I appreciate you taking the time to respond to my thread.

  23. #23
    too bad I hate doughnuts
    1146's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Illinois
    Posts
    210
    3.5in mag BBB steel shot from a breach gun would fit your criteria.

    It should not over penetrate even if the shot misses and it would be effective against suspects out to about 30ft as well. (just a theory we don't use it)

    Our standard response is our duty ammo, Hornady TAP Urban .223 60gr. It also has a very low over penetration risk.
    Last edited by 1146; 01-15-2012 at 09:36 PM. Reason: sp

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Log in

Click here to log in or register