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    Right to search

    If you pull over a car and one of the passengers is on either parole or probation, does that give you the right to search the whole car? From my understanding if you are on probation or parole, one of the conditions of it is that you are subject to search of you and your property at anytime without law enforcement having to have PC or a warrant. Is this correct? Just curious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bnathanb1982 View Post
    If you pull over a car and one of the passengers is on either parole or probation, does that give you the right to search the whole car? From my understanding if you are on probation or parole, one of the conditions of it is that you are subject to search of you and your property at anytime without law enforcement having to have PC or a warrant. Is this correct? Just curious.
    That's going to depend on the state. However the SC has said it's okay as a condition of the release.

    I do not think you'd get the whole car from the passenger being in it through. You'd more then likely just get him. Being a passenger of the car is obviously different then being the driver who is in control of the whole vehicle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bnathanb1982 View Post
    If you pull over a car and one of the passengers is on either parole or probation, does that give you the right to search the whole car? From my understanding if you are on probation or parole, one of the conditions of it is that you are subject to search of you and your property at anytime without law enforcement having to have PC or a warrant. Is this correct? Just curious.
    California says:

    If you're on probation or parole you essentially waive your 4th amendment rights to unreasonable search and seizure. You can be detained and searched with or without reasonable suspicion at any time.

    If you're inside of a motor vehicle, the passenger area of that motor vehicle can be searched pursuant to your probation terms. It's reasonable to search anywhere that you could reasonably access, it's reasonable for someone in the passenger area of a vehicle to be able to access anywhere in that area.

    If it's your vehicle, the engine compartment and trunk are fair game also.

    No warrants or additional probable cause are needed.

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    In Florida the terms of probation (we don't have parole) may stipulate that you submit to a search, however the probationer can still refuse. In that case the officer would have to respect the probationer's decision just like they would anyone else's, however their probation would then be violated for refusing to submit to the search. I'd be very interested in reading the aforementioned USSC ruling saying that an officer has the right to search a probationer absent probable cause just because it is a condition of their probation. I was always under the impression that they may refuse the search at the risk of their probation being violated, however we cannot search regardless.

    One of the negative things about probation down here is that everyone can have different conditions, and they aren't always readily available to those of us on the street. While one probationer may be required to submit to a search, another one may not be. Whenever I have contact with a probationer that involves suspicious activity, I always call the probation officer and inform them. Many times they were out past curfew or in violation of some other term of their probation, and the probation officer can use my contact with them to violate their probation.
    Last edited by Delta_V; 12-04-2009 at 12:20 AM.

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    I would still try to gain consent....
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blizzination View Post
    California says:

    If you're on probation or parole you essentially waive your 4th amendment rights to unreasonable search and seizure. You can be detained and searched with or without reasonable suspicion at any time.

    If you're inside of a motor vehicle, the passenger area of that motor vehicle can be searched pursuant to your probation terms. It's reasonable to search anywhere that you could reasonably access, it's reasonable for someone in the passenger area of a vehicle to be able to access anywhere in that area.

    If it's your vehicle, the engine compartment and trunk are fair game also.

    No warrants or additional probable cause are needed.
    That's awesome. I always wondered why officers ask if anyone is on probation/parole in CA on COPS. Instant 4th amendment waiver.... I wish we had that.

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    It would be nice if we had that too, however I don't necessarily agree with it. The probation officer, on the other hand, basically owns them and can and will violate them on the spot.

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    Not all probationers have search terms, but all parolees do.
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    In CA if a parolee is in the car, I can look anywhere in the passenger compartment, including inside any bags/boxes etc in the pass compartment.

    Don't ride with a parolee in the car in CA. All parolees I stop get searched, while you are a parolee you are still an inmate IMO.
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    Here in Texas, each County has their own conditions of probation, therefore each probationer has his/her own conditions of probation. Not all counties are the same. I have never seen that condition of probation here in Texas other than for sex offenders. As a former Adult Probation Officer I supervised a probationer from Fort Worth that had a condition of "not to drink alcohol in excessive amounts" . How would you sit on the stand and testify that the probationer drank in excessive amounts? .

    Some of the probationers from out of state had the condition of the search of their person and or residence. If I suspected drug use, I would get a local Police Officer to go with me to their residence (for my safety) and conduct the search. Anything found would then be given to the officer and they would make the arrest . The state the probationer came from would be contacted and notified of the new charges.

    I am not sure of parolees in Texas having the condition of search as part of their parole.
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    Not in Arkansas.

    I researched this a few months ago as a refresher and found that a parolee must submit anytime to a search of his/her person, place, residence, and/or motor vehicle by any Dept. of Community Corrections officer. Alternatively, with probationers it's up to the courts to decide in their paperwork, and if allowed a search of his/hier person, place, residence, and/or motor vehicle by any Parole and Probation Officer. I'm still not entirely sure who else DCC officer includes in the case of the parolees. Guards?

    This is why PPOs are often grouped into task forces, search teams, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by crass cop View Post
    I would still try to gain consent....
    Why if you have it you have it. If I had it I wouldnt worry about consent until case law come out stating otherwise.

    The SC has allowed the process of stating it's okay to mandate it as part of the release. They have not said that it's automatic across 50 states. If it's in your terms of release it's legal if you accept it as part of the release.

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    Quote Originally Posted by StudChris View Post
    can and will violate them on the spot.
    That just sounds sooooo wrong.
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    Anyone know anything about this for New York>

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    Quote Originally Posted by Name Taken View Post
    Why if you have it you have it. If I had it I wouldnt worry about consent until case law come out stating otherwise.
    Just in case; Hell I'd ask too. It is always nice to have more reason to search; than not enough and risk losing a case. I ask the driver/owner as well when this comes up, they usually feel that since there buddy is going to get their car searched anyway; they might as well let me search their side also. I usually find something to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Delta_V View Post
    In Florida the terms of probation (we don't have parole) may stipulate that you submit to a search, however the probationer can still refuse. In that case the officer would have to respect the probationer's decision just like they would anyone else's, however their probation would then be violated for refusing to submit to the search. I'd be very interested in reading the aforementioned USSC ruling saying that an officer has the right to search a probationer absent probable cause just because it is a condition of their probation. I was always under the impression that they may refuse the search at the risk of their probation being violated, however we cannot search regardless.

    One of the negative things about probation down here is that everyone can have different conditions, and they aren't always readily available to those of us on the street. While one probationer may be required to submit to a search, another one may not be. Whenever I have contact with a probationer that involves suspicious activity, I always call the probation officer and inform them. Many times they were out past curfew or in violation of some other term of their probation, and the probation officer can use my contact with them to violate their probation.
    I am a deputy in southwest Florida and if I come across a subject who has submit to search conditions as part of their probation and they refuse to submit to a search they are arrested and charged with violation of probation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Name Taken View Post
    Why if you have it you have it. If I had it I wouldnt worry about consent until case law come out stating otherwise.
    It called being cautious. The way LE loses these neat little legal tools is by a case gone wrong or by abusing them. By asking for consent you are not using / risking losing the tool. In the report and in court you look a lot less like a jack-booted thug if you ask for something as opposed to just taking it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 417Lt View Post
    It called being cautious. The way LE loses these neat little legal tools is by a case gone wrong or by abusing them. By asking for consent you are not using / risking losing the tool. In the report and in court you look a lot less like a jack-booted thug if you ask for something as opposed to just taking it.
    I agree. Even though they have submit to search conditions, I still ask for consent. If they refuse I remind them of their special conditions. If they still refuse I arrest them on violation of probation. Nine times out of ten they have something on them when they refuse consent and it makes my report better when I ask for consent and they still refuse after being reminded of their special conditions.

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    Here is a follow up question.

    First, is there a way that you guys know someone is on probation or parole unless you ask? For example, can you pull it up via you computer system on the spot? ( a rap sheet can always give you an idea but may not tell you if he or she is currently on probation or parole).

    If the answer is no, the next question would be whether you would need to mirandize someone before asking. It's a question likely to elicit an incriminating response, right?

    In any event, I am not familiar with the SC position on it but I would bet that NJ has not adopted it given our liberal ways. Even so, if a perp were smart he'd say no. Better to be violated for that than an additional charge if he has something on him. Besides, I doubt one of our judges in my county would find someone guilty on a VOP for refusing a search.
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    very good thread, in MN ( the most liberal state in the union ) we cannot search due to finding the driver is on parole or probation. I even had a few thrown out after getting consent to search from the driver after seeing body language indicating they were "stashing something" under their seat.

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    I'm a KY Probation/Parole Officer. Probationers are under the orders of the court. There are some counties/judges that will allow us to search at any time for no reason. anyone can refuse anything, doesn't mean i wont search anyways.

    i always ask for permission to search unless I have a resonable suspicion (our standard) which is easily enough obtained anyways. A tip from a community member, a positive drug screen, recent arrest, law enforcement info, etc...always gets me in the door. if they refuse to answer, call em into the office, hand cuff them, then take them to their house and conduct a search.

    parolee's can be violated for failure to co-operate with a Parole Officer for refusing a search by us or any Peace Officer acting at the direction of a Parole Officer. If Officer such and such calls me and says they have them detained on a traffic stop for suspected narcotics activity without PC to search, I'll tell them to put my Parolee on the phone and explain to them it's a violation if they don't let them search. usually our LEO contacts will just have us come to the scene and we'll do the searching.

    we had a narc unit stop someone they suspected of dealing dope, and get him out of the car. we arrived on scene and checked him out, looked through his car, then drove him to his house alone and searched away. it was unfounded, but he was on work release from the jail and was violating work release by going home during the day. also neighbors were complaining to the PD that he was selling and forced them out of their house while running the block. he'll get caught eventually, he's just smart.

    if only LEO's knew what a valuable resource us PO's are, they'd hopefully just call us any time they had a problem with someone on paper.

    Not all KY Parolee/Probationers are subject to search at any time, our standard is reasonable suspicion, but like i said, that's easy as pie to obtain.
    Last edited by mustanginky; 12-06-2009 at 03:51 PM.

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    [QUOTE=Ex Army MP;2102800]Here is a follow up question.

    First, is there a way that you guys know someone is on probation or parole unless you ask? For example, can you pull it up via you computer system on the spot? ( a rap sheet can always give you an idea but may not tell you if he or she is currently on probation or parole).

    If the answer is no, the next question would be whether you would need to mirandize someone before asking. It's a question likely to elicit an incriminating response, right?

    QUOTE]

    In KY you can look on courtnet which will give you info, but I don't know if NCIC will verify being on probation/parole.

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    [QUOTE=mustanginky;2103135]
    Quote Originally Posted by Ex Army MP View Post
    Here is a follow up question.

    First, is there a way that you guys know someone is on probation or parole unless you ask? For example, can you pull it up via you computer system on the spot? ( a rap sheet can always give you an idea but may not tell you if he or she is currently on probation or parole).

    If the answer is no, the next question would be whether you would need to mirandize someone before asking. It's a question likely to elicit an incriminating response, right?

    QUOTE]

    In KY you can look on courtnet which will give you info, but I don't know if NCIC will verify being on probation/parole.
    In FL when I run the subject or their vehicle on my MDT, NCIC/FCIC will tell me their probation status and special conditions. The program we have will also tell me any arrests they have had in my county. As to the question of having to read miranda to them before asking probation status the correct answer is no you do not.

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    [QUOTE=ccsodeputy;2103250]
    Quote Originally Posted by mustanginky View Post

    In FL when I run the subject or their vehicle on my MDT, NCIC/FCIC will tell me their probation status and special conditions. The program we have will also tell me any arrests they have had in my county. As to the question of having to read miranda to them before asking probation status the correct answer is no you do not.
    Well, that's what I would argue although my adversaries would argue differently. I have never dealt with the issue but I suppose that if they aren't in custody and felt free to leave( the standard for Miranda being custodial interrogation) then I think you're correct.

    I am curious as to whether SCOTUS has ever dealt with this. When I have time I'll see if our courts( NJ) have ever dealt with it.
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    thanks, wasn't sure if NCIC told probation/parole status as I don't utilize NCIC the same way police officers do. we don't often utilize police radio and usually I run them through the local SO when I have to check for warrants.

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