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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by irishlad2nv View Post
    Not even going to attempt to argure. I know for a fact since I sarted LE at a SO in Maryland and the deputies we had in the jail had absolutely no police powers what so ever, which is why they attended a Correctional Academy!

    And yes JSO is. There is no "Jacksonville County" aka Duval County, which makes up JSO. Same concept and MDPD.
    To save an argument, let put it this way. Can you name me a state were almost none of the deputy sheriffs have no police powers, besides PA?

    I still don’t see your point about the JSO. So there is no Jacksonville County, who said there was? What’s the point? Most of the people who live in Duval County live in Jacksonville. It has been more than 40 years since the Duval County government and the Jacksonville city governments merged. I don’t see your point.

    Miami-Dade County is totally different. The city of Miami maintains a separate government than Dade County. Only the name of Dade County was changed, not the government.

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    Besides PA, no. Never argued that one there. However several states have detention deuies who are in fact deputies with no police powers. Yes I know typically Sheriff's office are the main LE function in most states, besides Pa.

    Never attempted to make a "point" about JSO.
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    Quote Originally Posted by irishlad2nv View Post
    Besides PA, no. Never argued that one there. However several states have detention deuies who are in fact deputies with no police powers. Yes I know typically Sheriff's office are the main LE function in most states, besides Pa.

    Never attempted to make a "point" about JSO.

    So with all that said, what would it hurt to give deputies in PA police powers? Counties in PA have a separate corrections department, so all of the deputies in PA perform the same duties as deputies do across the U.S. besides patrol and corrections. In many counties, especially in the Northeast, there are a restricted department (warrants, courtroom, Prisoner transport, subpoenas, etc) like PA and all of there non-correction deputies have police powers.

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    Comparing FL to PA is like comparing apples and oranges. Sheriff's in FL (including JSO which is a merged agency and still has an elected sheriff and Miami Dade PD which is also an SO and actually has 2 sheriff's appointed by the county council) have the responsibility of the county jail, civil process and afew other items.

    In PA you DO NOT have unincorporated areas of the county. Everything is incorporated which is unique since it requires the municipality to contract out for LE services or have their own force.

    Prior to their abolishment, I believe CT deputy sheriff's (now known as judicial marshals) had no LE powers.
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    Quote Originally Posted by orlandofed5-0 View Post
    Comparing FL to PA is like comparing apples and oranges. Sheriff's in FL (including JSO which is a merged agency and still has an elected sheriff and Miami Dade PD which is also an SO and actually has 2 sheriff's appointed by the county council) have the responsibility of the county jail, civil process and afew other items.

    In PA you DO NOT have unincorporated areas of the county. Everything is incorporated which is unique since it requires the municipality to contract out for LE services or have their own force.

    Prior to their abolishment, I believe CT deputy sheriff's (now known as judicial marshals) had no LE powers.
    I was in Kane County, Illinois a few months ago. Its a little smaller than Bucks county, and has a population of 500,000. There are some large departments with and small ones. Every little town had a police department. The sheriff's office did patrol throughout the county, though mostly in the unincorporated area. I did see them throughout the town of Aurora, which has a large department (300+). They even handled 911 dispatch for many towns, and they handle corrections. That is a good example of what a sheriffs office should do. It is also what many sheriffs departments across the country do.

    I'll agree that there is some deputies outside PA that don't have police powers (of course many are not deputy sheriffs, but deputy correction officers like Kane County). But that is a very, very tiny amount. And there is no other state besides PA where the whole state does not recognize deputy sheriffs as LEOs. Lets take NJ for example. Only two sheriff departments do patrol, the rest don't. But every single deputy is considered a LEO with full LEO powers.

    So when it comes down to it, there is really no valid point or precedent as to why PA sheriffs don't have police powers.

    I believe deputies in CT had police powers, but their police services were only needed in a few areas with no local departments.
    Last edited by Spartan75; 03-11-2009 at 10:55 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spartan75 View Post
    I was in Kane County, Illinois a few months ago. Its a little smaller than Bucks county, and has a population of 500,000. There are some large departments with and small ones. Every little town had a police department. The sheriff's office did patrol throughout the county, though mostly in the unincorporated area. I did see them throughout the town of Aurora, which has a large department (300+). They even handled 911 dispatch for many towns, and they handle corrections. That is a good example of what a sheriffs office should do. It is also what many sheriffs departments across the country do.

    I'll agree that there is some deputies outside PA that don't have police powers (of course many are not deputy sheriffs, but deputy correction officers like Kane County). But that is a very, very tiny amount. And there is no other state besides PA where the whole state does not recognize deputy sheriffs as LEOs. Lets take NJ for example. Only two sheriff departments do patrol, the rest don't. But every single deputy is considered a LEO with full LEO powers.

    So when it comes down to it, there is really no valid point or precedent as to why PA sheriffs don't have police powers.

    I believe deputies in CT had police powers, but their police services were only needed in a few areas with no local departments.

    There is a valid point not to (bear in mind this is a joke not an attack on your post) PSP and the FOP are afraid to let 'em have it. Why? Because out in central and western pa a lot of Counties rely on PSP and the one ore two small PDs. PSP handles all calls. So, if the Sheriffs get that authority they can contract services out to smaller Bororoughs and provide response. they can turn themselves into a money making agency. PSP would lose funding/manpower in those areas as the Sheriffs got bigger.

    Ladies and gentleman thats your awnser why. There is no secret that PSP has blocked the legislation on Sheriffs. Just go to the PA Sheriffs association website, its right on there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by timtim View Post
    There is a valid point not to (bear in mind this is a joke not an attack on your post) PSP and the FOP are afraid to let 'em have it. Why? Because out in central and western pa a lot of Counties rely on PSP and the one ore two small PDs. PSP handles all calls. So, if the Sheriffs get that authority they can contract services out to smaller Bororoughs and provide response. they can turn themselves into a money making agency. PSP would lose funding/manpower in those areas as the Sheriffs got bigger.

    Ladies and gentleman thats your awnser why. There is no secret that PSP has blocked the legislation on Sheriffs. Just go to the PA Sheriffs association website, its right on there.

    Your right, what you say really sums it up. Hopefully, with the talk of regionalization in many areas of PA, people will think it is wiser to expand a sheriff department rather than create departments from scratch.

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    Quote Originally Posted by orlandofed5-0 View Post
    Prior to their abolishment, I believe CT deputy sheriff's (now known as judicial marshals) had no LE powers.
    We don't have any county level government, period.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think MA deputy sheriffs have much in the way of LE powers either.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GangGreen712 View Post
    We don't have any county level government, period.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think MA deputy sheriffs have much in the way of LE powers either.
    They still have statutory arrest powers.

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    They have statatory arrest powers, however, they are not well received by the municipal police and state police. Every square inch in MA is incorporated as well as PA. This is one of the reasons why the Sheriff in those states lost their signifigance when it comes to law enforcement. Constables then later police officers have always had more law enforcement signigance in those states as far as I know.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AvalancheZ71 View Post
    They have statatory arrest powers, however, they are not well received by the municipal police and state police. Every square inch in MA is incorporated as well as PA. This is one of the reasons why the Sheriff in those states lost their signifigance when it comes to law enforcement. Constables then later police officers have always had more law enforcement signigance in those states as far as I know.
    They still have their powers and are LEOs. That is all the PA sheriffs are asking for.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spartan75 View Post
    They still have their powers and are LEOs. That is all the PA sheriffs are asking for.

    Dude, I've been doing my research on the side and PA sheriff's ARE considered Law Enforcement in this state. And we ARE covered under the HR 218. I got this from a Sheriff himself. That Kopko case everyone is revering to refers to the "wiretapping act" of PA and nothing else. If you need more info, just email privately, I don't want get into an argument about this on this forum.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cacique View Post
    Dude, I've been doing my research on the side and PA sheriff's ARE considered Law Enforcement in this state. And we ARE covered under the HR 218. I got this from a Sheriff himself. That Kopko case everyone is revering to refers to the "wiretapping act" of PA and nothing else. If you need more info, just email privately, I don't want get into an argument about this on this forum.

    Well, I will argue, PA Sheriffs do not have Statutory arrest authority with the exception of one. H.R. 218 requires Statutory Arrest Authority period. PA Sheriffs Deputies and Sheriffs do not meet the printented requirement. The Sheriff better get with the County Lawyers before telling his guys/gals go ahead.

    qualified law enforcement officer means an employee of a governmental agency who--

    `(1) is authorized by law to engage in or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of, or the incarceration of any person for, any violation of law, and has statutory powers of arrest;

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cacique View Post
    Dude, I've been doing my research on the side and PA sheriff's ARE considered Law Enforcement in this state. And we ARE covered under the HR 218. I got this from a Sheriff himself. That Kopko case everyone is revering to refers to the "wiretapping act" of PA and nothing else. If you need more info, just email privately, I don't want get into an argument about this on this forum.
    From the PA Sheriff's Assocation own website:

    In February 2006, the Pennsylvania Supreme Court ruled in a case known as Kopko that sheriffs "are not 'investigative or law enforcement officers'" under the Pennsylvania Wiretapping Act. In November 2007, the Court restated in a case called Dobbins that the sheriffs' common law authority allows only for arrests for breaches of the peace and felonies committed in their presence - authority "no different than a private citizen.”

    In plain English.
    Last edited by Spartan75; 03-16-2009 at 05:36 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cacique View Post
    Dude, I've been doing my research on the side and PA sheriff's ARE considered Law Enforcement in this state. And we ARE covered under the HR 218. I got this from a Sheriff himself. That Kopko case everyone is revering to refers to the "wiretapping act" of PA and nothing else. If you need more info, just email privately, I don't want get into an argument about this on this forum.
    "We" Unless you as a Corrections officer has Statutory powers of arrest, you cannot carry per LESOA. And PA Sheriff's cannot carry off duty per LESOA since they do not have Staturoty Powers of arrest.

    "Law Enforcement" can range from a security guard to the Attorney General himself.
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    Alaska does not have a sheriff system. Hawaii has a State Sheriff. Now that I think about it, I believe that Delaware's sheriffs do not have statatory law enforcement powers either. I believe that the DE constitution states that they are converators of the peace, however, I seem to remember that the DE Attorney General made the Suffolk County Sheriff remove his lights and siren and told him to cease writing tickets.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AvalancheZ71 View Post
    Alaska does not have a sheriff system. Hawaii has a State Sheriff. Now that I think about it, I believe that Delaware's sheriffs do not have statatory law enforcement powers either. I believe that the DE constitution states that they are converators of the peace, however, I seem to remember that the DE Attorney General made the Suffolk County Sheriff remove his lights and siren and told him to cease writing tickets.
    You mean the former Sussex county sheriff who was trying to bring the MD style of LE to DE? It would of worked if it was not for the county council and the DSP.
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    Quote Originally Posted by orlandofed5-0 View Post
    You mean the former Sussex county sheriff who was trying to bring the MD style of LE to DE? It would of worked if it was not for the county council and the DSP.
    That is it. I am sorry, Sussex County. It was Sheriff Robert Reed. He was defeated and the new guy is a retired DE State Police Trooper. I bet he will keep the DSP in business by not pursuing the whole county law enforcement thing.
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  21. #46
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    Sheriffs in New York

    I am a road patrol deputy, in New York. I am sad to hear that this debate is still going on, in PA. In New York, Sheriffs/Deputy Sheriffs are police officers, per NY criminal procedure law.

    In New York State, the chief law enforcement officer of a county is the Sheriff (per state law). It is not the state police or any other police agency. There is one exception to the law: New York City Sheriff. He/She and deputies are peace officers not police officers. That changed when the NYPD was created, many years ago. The Office of Sheriff, in New York State, is mandated by state constitution. No other police agency is mandated by state constitution. State law states that cities/towns/villages MAY have a police department, it does not require them to do so.

    All police must meet the same six month academy requirements. The state police run their own academy. Local municipal police and sheriff deputies train at regional type academies run by community colleges or sheriff offices.

    If you want to be a road patrol deputy you must take the New York State Civil Service police exam and get on a hiring list. All police agencies (within counties) hire off same list. If you want to work in a county Sheriff jail you have to take the New York State Civil Service corrections exam.

    There is a difference in status of jail deputies and road deputies: jail deps are peace officers, while road deps are police officers.

    There really is not much difference in arrest powers except peace officers become civilians when off duty and are limited to geopolitical jurisdiction; police officers maintain arrest powers all over the state and while off duty.

    It's no different up here than PA . . . the state police do everything they can to eliminate Sheriffs' road patrols. They jump our calls, etc.. So, I am not surprised at all that PSP are fighting the Sheriffs' having police powers in PA.

    In New York State, Sheriff Offices patrol towns and villages that do not have their own police department; but patrols are not dedicated to a particular municipality unless a municipality contracts for dedicated patrol. Our agency has one village that contracts for dedicated patrol.

    Sheriffs are the least expensive police services, here in New York. So, because of the economy, towns are beginning to abolish PDs and contract with Sheriff Offices, for police services. As in other northeastern states, every square mile of New York is incorporated; however, that did nothing to reduce the office of sheriff. The office of Sheriff was the first police agency in every county and still functions as it did when it was created in the late 1700s.

    We also know our patrol communities well and our deputies know the "usual suspects" because we are not moved around; we work near our homes. The state police move their troopers around so they never get the chance to know their communities well.

    Best wishes to PA Sheriffs' Offices.
    Last edited by rpd86; 03-23-2009 at 11:15 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AREP87 View Post
    Some information i gathered about PA sheriff's offices, this is coming from deputy sheriff's themselves. Sheriff's in the state of PA do have statutory arrest powers, are considered LEO's and are covered under HR. 218 (LEOSA.) The training they receive is almost identical to Police officers.
    What kind of "source" told you that?

    I don't think the Pennsylvania Sheriffs’ Association has gotten the memo on that. Maybe you should tell them, because no one else has!
    Last edited by Spartan75; 03-26-2009 at 05:43 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AREP87 View Post
    Some information i gathered about PA sheriff's offices, this is coming from deputy sheriff's themselves. Sheriff's in the state of PA do have statutory arrest powers, are considered LEO's and are covered under HR. 218 (LEOSA.) The training they receive is almost identical to Police officers.
    And you can back this up how? By word of mouth?
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    Quote Originally Posted by AREP87 View Post
    Some information i gathered about PA sheriff's offices, this is coming from deputy sheriff's themselves. Sheriff's in the state of PA do have statutory arrest powers, are considered LEO's and are covered under HR. 218 (LEOSA.) The training they receive is almost identical to Police officers.

    FACT: Only 1 Sheriffs Dept. has Statutory Arrest Authority in PA (Allehgany)
    FACT: PA Sheriff Association is currently fighting for that authority for all others
    FACT: You were bamboozled.

    Stat Author. is needed they don't have it, everyone saying they do need to stop. It is fact they don't. I'm not a Sheriff hater i'm a facts person. I think they should be full rec. LEOs' personaly.

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