Greene County deputies handcuff woman who waited to stop in well-lit area

[velobard]

http://www.ky3.com/news/local/19577939.html

SPRINGFIELD -- A family hopes law officers will make clear what they expect a driver to do if an officer tries to stop her and she wants to make sure a fake cop is not stopping her. That's what Vanessa Kimery thought was happening to her when she saw flashing lights behind her Wednesday morning.
It turns out it was the real deal -- a Greene County sheriff’s deputy. The deputy tried to stop Kimery on South Campbell Avenue (U.S. 160), south of Springfield.

It wasn't too long ago that Highway Patrol troopers and the Howell County sheriff were dealing the case of two women who were pulled over and assaulted near West Plains by a man impersonating an officer. So, remembering that, Kimery says she wanted to be safe instead of sorry when she saw police lights behind her. Now, she faces a possible fine for it.

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I realize we don't have a whole lot to go on here, but generally speaking what SHOULD a young woman do on a dark, empty stretch of road in this situation? Seems to me she was doing exactly what you often hear is recommended.

[jakflak]

The thing to do is to call 911 from the cell phone and let them know your location and pull over immediately. If possible, aim for a well lit area. However, just driving on is a very, very bad idea that will likely land someone in jail.

Keep in mind the odds of being a victim of a police impersonator are less than the odds of being attacked by a bear.

[Fuzz]

This has been covered before and this article does not contain much information on what actually happened and what the driver did. IF there is a question about if a real officer is behind you then there are many things to do...... acknowledge the officer with either a turn signal or flashers so he knows you are going to yield, slow down so the officer doesnt think you are evading (obviously dont go 20 mph on the freeway or interstate, but slow a bit and move to the far right lane when possible), use a cell phone to call 911 to verify the officer is legit and to let dispatch know to tell the officer you are yielding in a well lit area.

[ManInTan]

Whats the big deal? I'll put someone in cuffs if I think something is not added up... I call it "discretion" and I like to call it "Officer Safety"

[velobard]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

This has been covered before and this article does not contain much information on what actually happened and what the driver did. IF there is a question about if a real officer is behind you then there are many things to do...... acknowledge the officer with either a turn signal or flashers so he knows you are going to yield, slow down so the officer doesnt think you are evading (obviously dont go 20 mph on the freeway or interstate, but slow a bit and move to the far right lane when possible), use a cell phone to call 911 to verify the officer is legit and to let dispatch know to tell the officer you are yielding in a well lit area.

From what little I've learned about this case, it appears the young woman did not have a cell phone. I am familiar with that stretch of road and it's apparent in the video that she's going well under the speed limit while she's driving with her flashers on. I understand she went about 1/2 mile before stopping at the convenience store. So, she slowed down, put on her flashers, and stopped within a reasonable distance at a safe location.

I realize that the chances of it being a "fake cop" are low, but it sounds like she did exactly what is commonly given as advice on how this sort of thing should be handled, by young women in particular. I'll go so far as to say that, based on what's been presented, the Failure to Yield charge sounds bogus in this situation.

[KAA951]

Several problems with the posts/advice given previously:

1) By failing to yield the right of way to an emergency vehicle- they are making an assumption that the emergency vehicle is trying to stop their car. They may be hindering that vehicle's response to another emergency or blocking them from stopping another violator. I remember a female driver who I stopped late one night telling me she had not stopped for my patrol car (lit up like a Christmas Tree and siren wailing) becuase she thought I was an ambulance! This is not to mention the fact that they are drawing out the safety hazard to other motorists who are having to yield to the same officer they refuse to pull over for.

2) 911 and cell phones are not the end all- be all of safety. There is a fairly large chance that they will reach a 911 center that is not the same jurisdiction or agency that the officer stopping them is working in or for. It may make them feel good to talk to a dispatcher- but they might as well be calling from the moon for all the good it will do. The dispatcher most likely will not know who is stopping them or will have to transfer them around to find out which agency it is (city, county, state etc). In the end, reality is that even if it is a bad guy- the phone is not going to protect them- the advice given below will.

The best advice you will find on this is below- from a wide number of agencies who have studied this issue:

"If you're uncertain if the person trying to stop you is legitimate,
pull over but keep your car doors locked. When your vehicle is
approached by the officer, roll your window down only far
enough to talk to the officer. Remain in your secured vehicle
until proper identification of the officer is made."

Simple and effective advice that maintains safety for the driver, other motorists and the officer.

[towncop]

You guys can sit here and say they should stop and "roll down the window" blah, blah, blah....all you want. But I'm here to tell you that as long as a department has their PIO CONTINUALLY put out the message, "It's ok, go to a well-lighted area, put your flashers on...blah, blah, blah," I don't think we as patrol officers can blame these people for doing so. Relax, Francis.

[velobard]

The failure to yield ticket has been dropped.

http://www.news-leader.com/apps/pbcs...D=200880606036

The Greene County Sheriff’s Department says a young woman acted reasonably in driving farther to a lighted area on South Campbell after a deputy tried to pull her over for speeding early Thursday morning.

But Sheriff’s Capt. Randy Gibson also defended the three deputies who responded, saying they handled the incident appropriately.

“We don’t fault her for what she did,” Gibson said Friday. “We all have wives and daughters, and understand the heightened concerns people have when they travel at night.”

There have been several recent incidents where women were attacked in Missouri after being pulled over by someone pretending to be a law enforcement officer.

They go on to say a motorist in a remote area should do exactly what this driver did; slow down, put on flashers, and continue to a well-lit location.

[NBW791]

I'd probably do the exact same thing. The only thing is her four-way flashers were on which kind of shows she is acknowledging the deputy and she's not pulling away like she's trying to get away. I would have unhooked her though once I got it sorted out (maybe a little quicker than they did).

In the end, I probably would have just wrote her for the speed, even though failing to yield to an emergency vehicle does frustrate me.

Like I tell people, "What if I were trying to get to YOUR house because your loved one was having a heart attack and you slowed me down by not moving out of the way?"

Lesson learned for her. Maybe next time she won't cry as much since she said she would do the exact same thing again.

[Looker]

What's the issue... if the cop can use handcuffs??

The officer was correct to place cuffs on her. Officer safety is #1, all else be damned. The old saying is "I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6." Most times we don't know who you are when we walk up to your window.

IMO, the lady was practicing her good judgement based on a recent history of the "fake cops" incidents in the area. I probably would have advised my wife to do the same, if similar illegal activity was going on here. I would tell her to be expected to be placed in cuffs, and not to be suprised if she spent a few minutes in the back of a patrol car... but I'd rather have her safe than be sorry.

My .02

We as cops do similar activity... crime goes up in our area, we take measures to counter it.

[velobard]

Originally Posted by Looker

What's the issue... if the cop can use handcuffs??

The "issue" was merely whether there was a concensus that the young woman acted properly in going to a lighted area. At least that's all I had in mind when I posted, I can't speak for anyone else.

The officer was correct to place cuffs on her. Officer safety is #1, all else be damned. The old saying is "I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6." Most times we don't know who you are when we walk up to your window.

Ummm, I have to say that as a non-LEO this comes across as a dangerous slippery-slope type of statement if taken literally. I'm not passing judgement here on the cuffs, just the statement in bold. I inlcuded the whole paragraph so I wouldn't be accused of taking things out of context.

[APD_12]

Keep in mind the odds of being a victim of a police impersonator are less than the odds of being attacked by a bear.

Im pretty sure my school of thought on this topic is not the most popular but reading that quote above makes me think, why is every women (in some cases men) in America Assuming that everytime they are pulled over at night they are about to be a victim of a Police Impersonator? Not sure how statistically sound the above is but it has to be close, if not nill. Im all in favor of being prepared or "never being too cautious" but there comes a point when you go from keeping a few canned goods around the house to that guy sitting in the home-made bomb shelter staring at his WWII Ham Radio. In other words, paranoid.

I call this the Suburbanite Doomsday Disease. Whenever I speak with folks from the nicer neighborhoods they give me these off the wall scenerios and finish them with, "So how do I protect myself from that?" I think the moral of my rant is Common Sense. Be reasonably cautious, stay aware of your surroundings, and for the love of all that is holy, USE THE BRAIN GOD GAVE YOU! If you cant tell the difference between my LED lightbar and strobing headlights from that impersonators Walmart window mount light, well then I just dont know.

[Looker]

Originally Posted by velobard

The "issue" was merely whether there was a concensus that the young woman acted properly in going to a lighted area. At least that's all I had in mind when I posted, I can't speak for anyone else.

Then I agree with the young woman's actions in light of everything that occurred as I read and understood it.

Originally Posted by velobard

Ummm, I have to say that as a non-LEO this comes across as a dangerous slippery-slope type of statement if taken literally. I'm not passing judgement here on the cuffs, just the statement in bold. I inlcuded the whole paragraph so I wouldn't be accused of taking things out of context.

I don't wish to accuse you of taking anything out of context. I believe I have a clue as to what you may have understood the literal translation of my post meant. I get the feeling you were thinking something along the lines of "even if it's illegal." While that is one way to take it literally, I think you could be misunderstanding what I was trying to say. I'll try to clarify.

The reference to "Officer's Safety is #1" refers to each and every LEO's primary responsibility every day he or she wakes up, kisses his or her family goodbye, and goes to work... to go home at the end of the day. I would even go so far to say it doesn't matter what country you work in for that to be true.

If I attempt to pull someone over who does not comply with my actions for a full half mile, as given in the scenario....with my training and experience, I'm led to believe there are a few things that could be happening in that vehicle. Things that I need to be VERY alert to. So whether or not if the driver is a young female or a parolee looking at his 3rd strike if I catch him... I have no clue who you are when I first get to that window. Not every parolee looks like a hardened, tatted-out muscle-bound banger, and not every parolee at large (PAL) is male. Therefore my first action is to gain control of the situation by getting you in shiny bracelets. This protects you as well as me.

The part where I'm talking about "all else be damned"... I won't be the only LEO to tell you I'll take a lawsuit up the wazoo (the judged by 12 part of the post), give you every possession I have ever accumulated in my life, and smile when you hand me a pink slip for handcuffing Miss Daisy... rather than have to ask one of my brothers or sisters to go visit my front door and tell my family they'll never be able to see my bright blue eyes again (the carried by 6 part).

I hope you better understand my post.

[velobard]

Originally Posted by Looker

I hope you better understand my post.

I believe I understood what you meant, but this isn't the first time I've read that phrase on this forum and it makes for an, ummm, unfortunate, sound bite if you're quoted on it or someone with tunnel vision takes it literally. There's plenty of people who honestly believe the police are not there to "protect and serve", and statements like that can be used to back them up. Of course a LEO should protect him/herself against the various threats they face on the streets. I live in a town that's lost 3 LEOs in the past few years, and this is generally considered a nice area.

APD 12, if you read the news stories I linked to, you'll see that there have been multiple cases in recent years of fake cops pulling women over at night in that area. It wasn't just paranoia.

[Tucker6900]

Officer safety is #1, all else be damned.

Dang! You clarified your post before I posted this one! LOL

What about citizen safety? If Im not sure if the car behind me is carrying a real officer or a fake, Im not gonna stop right away either. Ill do exactly what she did. And at that point, I care about the safety one person, me. If the officer gets irritated because I didnt stop right away, sorry for the irritation, but I really dont care. Im looking out for myself and anyone else who my be in the car with me at the time.

[Smurfette_76]

Originally Posted by Tucker6900

Dang! You clarified your post before I posted this one! LOL

What about citizen safety? If Im not sure if the car behind me is carrying a real officer or a fake, Im not gonna stop right away either. Ill do exactly what she did. And at that point, I care about the safety one person, me. If the officer gets irritated because I didnt stop right away, sorry for the irritation, but I really dont care. Im looking out for myself and anyone else who my be in the car with me at the time.

That's fine. The flip side of that is don't be ****ed off when you're placed in cuffs until we determine what is going on. Cuffs are standard duty issue, crystal ball is not.

[LeanG]

She did ok.

That has happened to me a couple of times (once in a marked cruiser). It's not rocket science, you know if someone is actively trying to elude you or if they were genuinely nervous, especially when you actually make contact with the driver.

Just don't be surprised if you're placed in time-out for a few minutes

[Tucker6900]

That's fine. The flip side of that is don't be ****ed off when you're placed in cuffs until we determine what is going on. Cuffs are standard duty issue, crystal ball is not.

Im sure, after the driver explains whats going on, most cops would explain the flip side to them, and either cuff them or not. I understand why officers would do that. Safety.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Tucker6900

Dang! You clarified your post before I posted this one! LOL

What about citizen safety? If Im not sure if the car behind me is carrying a real officer or a fake, Im not gonna stop right away either. Ill do exactly what she did. And at that point, I care about the safety one person, me. If the officer gets irritated because I didnt stop right away, sorry for the irritation, but I really dont care. Im looking out for myself and anyone else who my be in the car with me at the time.

Its not just irritation....its THE LAW for you to pull to the right. In my previous post I gave some possible ways to let the officer behind you know you are going to pull over, but its still against the law for you to not immediately pull to the right and yield. It is up to each officer and each situation to decide wether or not you are going to get cited. And just so you know....I have had people do this to me multiple times and none of them got the ticket for the failure to yield or put in cuffs....but they could have.

[velobard]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Its not just irritation....its THE LAW for you to pull to the right. In my previous post I gave some possible ways to let the officer behind you know you are going to pull over, but its still against the law for you to not immediately pull to the right and yield.

Dashcam video shows her in the right lane, apparently below the speed limit (I believe it's 60 on that stretch), with her 4-way flashers on. It appears that the driver did everything you recommend except call 911, but I haven't read anything to indicate she had a cell phone. Yes they did eventually drop the failure-to-yield, but in this case the dashcam shows they could have gotten around her, it was based soley on her not stopping right away.

I understand that a LEO is up against a possible threat everytime they stop someone. On the other side, however, a civilian in this young woman's situation has limited options for how to best handle a potential problem when they're being stopped on a dark road. I know of young women out there with a ccw, but if you so much as had your hand ready to draw as a precaution when a cop came to the window (until positive ID was made of the LEO) the situation could escalate, so logically in that case she should still have continued on to a safe location.

[Looker]

Looks like a general consensus for the most part. Not a lot of LEO's are disagreeing with what she did, based on the circumstances. Everybody understands the police officer was thinking officer safety, and can comprehend the use of handcuffs.

Lets all have a drink (mine's an ice coffee w/ fufu creamer, 4 hours of sleep... ), and thank God for our good fortune.

[Fella]

Oh come on for the love of god! The lights coming off of that patrol car didn't look legitimate?? J.H.C.!! The video showed her driving past places with overhead lighting. She wasn't going to stop for that sheriff when she got to the gas station. She veered off sharply when she saw another police car with it's lights flashing in front of her. What a croc!!

[velobard]

Originally Posted by Fella

Oh come on for the love of god! The lights coming off of that patrol car didn't look legitimate?? J.H.C.!! The video showed her driving past places with overhead lighting.

Fella, I know that stretch of road and at that time of night there's no place she passed that's lit AND occupied.

[Fella]

Originally Posted by velobard

Fella, I know that stretch of road and at that time of night there's no place she passed that's lit AND occupied.

I agree with you that the overhead lighting wasn't in an occupied area, but look at the amount of light flashing from the cruiser. I've never heard of a wannabe with that kind of lighting. Also if you watch the video carefully near the end you can see where she veered off suddenly toward the gas station. It really appeared as though she only veered off because she noticed the other police car. I think in this particular case that the charges she's facing are justified.

[velobard]

From what I can see on the videos, you might be mistaking what it takes to get into that gas station. This is an 4-lane divided road with (on this section) outer roads on both sides. It's been a few years since I've passed that intersection, but IIRC there's also another gas station across the intersection that might have been closed that time of night.

BTW, all those lights she was passing before were not only unoccupied, they were on the outer road and most of the time there was a ditch between her and the lights.