Interesting read from a PA gun forum

[fedguy889]

Thought some of you would like to read this. You'll need to go to page 15 (it should take you there) to see where it gets interesting. Not trying to start anything, just has my interests peaked and wanted to share.

http://www.pafoa.org/forum/concealed...a-page-15.html

[phillyrube]

This came off page 24 of that post:

"The responding traffic cops had 100% no clue of the law or how to proceed.

I must say Larry, Taurus, and myself were not happy and stated that to the officers. The one cop Larry and myself were talking to was very professional he was not DC police but from another town.

When the female cop asked me to turn around and face the wall I thought PA and I were going to be bunk mates, but then she proceeded to demand that I unholster my "weapon" so she could check the S#. I took out my gun dropped the Mag and cleared the chamber. A few minutes later she returned my gun I popped the Mag back in and dropped the slide and put the gun back in my holster. I think i heard at least two cops **** their pants,The male responding officer then stated you know if you guys do stupid stuff its on yourself, in other words he was saying carring with one in the pipe is not smart. "

What is this cop thinking? Let a possible suspect unholster his own gun and clear it?? Sounds like they have some issues up there.....


DC

[Steve in PA]

A suspect of what? They were eating dinner. No one was doing anything illegal.

[FNA209]

Oops. If Open Carry is legal, the officers probably made a few mistakes.

[fedguy889]

Originally Posted by FNA209

Oops. If Open Carry is legal, the officers probably made a few mistakes.

yes it is legal in PA, no permit required (unless in Philly).

[Bssthound98]

This subject came up on that site due to a "lurker" on domelights.com, a Philly PD message board. he came on to stir all kinds of "stuff" w/ the Ofc's about what they would do if they saw someone open carry.

Contrary to all of their beliefs, and that of the last poster... it is NOT legal to open-carry a firearm in pennsylvania. The pennsylvania firearms chapter allows for concealed carry on a person or in a vehicle. I Just read the 2008 crimes code again as it was updated in our station.

They're a bunch of liberal "stuff" stirrers that are of the belief that the federal constitution takes precedence over the state constitution... and in this case it does NOT.

My $.02

[bankfraudguy]

Originally Posted by Bssthound98

Contrary to all of their beliefs, and that of the last poster... it is NOT legal to open-carry a firearm in pennsylvania. The pennsylvania firearms chapter allows for concealed carry on a person or in a vehicle. I Just read the 2008 crimes code again as it was updated in our station.

If it is illegal, why wasn't everybody arrested ? I know for a fact that open carry in Illinois is specifically illegal and if I were to do so, I wouldn't be standing around having a conversation with the police about it, I'd be sitting in a detention cell hoping my wife was able to get to the bank to bail my sorry butt out.

It seems that the folks that were at the Old Country Buffet that day were carrying open under the premise that it was not specifically forbidden by PA criminal code and therefore not illegal.

What exact staute would you be charging the liberal stuff stirrers with?

[fedguy889]

Originally Posted by Bssthound98

This subject came up on that site due to a "lurker" on domelights.com, a Philly PD message board. he came on to stir all kinds of "stuff" w/ the Ofc's about what they would do if they saw someone open carry.

Contrary to all of their beliefs, and that of the last poster... it is NOT legal to open-carry a firearm in pennsylvania. The pennsylvania firearms chapter allows for concealed carry on a person or in a vehicle. I Just read the 2008 crimes code again as it was updated in our station.
They're a bunch of liberal "stuff" stirrers that are of the belief that the federal constitution takes precedence over the state constitution... and in this case it does NOT.

My $.02

The UFA states you MUSt have a license to carry concealed or in a car. PA does NOT have a concealed carry permit, only a License to Carry A Firearm.

I'd suggest you read Commonwealth Vs Hawkins, specifically this portion, on page 4:

"4 In all parts of Pennsylvania, persons who are licensed may carry concealed firearms. 18 Pa.C.S.§ 6108. Except in Philadelphia, firearms may be carried openly without a license. See Ortiz v. Commonwealth, ___ Pa. ___, ___, 681 A.2d 152, 155 (1996) (only in Philadelphia must a person obtain a license for carrying a firearm whether it is unconcealed or concealed; in other parts of the Commonwealth, unconcealed firearms do not require a license)."

As far as I know, this has NOT been changed by the courts, nor can I or my roommate (or any other PA cop I hang out with, trust me ALL my friends are either PA or MD cops) find a 2008 update on this.

[t150vsuptpr]

Originally Posted by Bssthound98

This subject came up on that site due to a "lurker" on domelights.com, a Philly PD message board. he came on to stir all kinds of "stuff" w/ the Ofc's about what they would do if they saw someone open carry.

Contrary to all of their beliefs, and that of the last poster... it is NOT legal to open-carry a firearm in pennsylvania. The pennsylvania firearms chapter allows for concealed carry on a person or in a vehicle. I Just read the 2008 crimes code again as it was updated in our station.

They're a bunch of liberal "stuff" stirrers that are of the belief that the federal constitution takes precedence over the state constitution... and in this case it does NOT.

My $.02

If you are LE, you should strive to attain a better understanding of law, and of the United States Constitution. If your state's law is in conflict, it will eventually be ruled unconstitutional. That's where the phrase comes from.

Also, if open carry is not prohibited, it's legal. Doesn't need to be a law making it legal for it to be so. Va. is an open carry state. With few exceptions (specified in law) it is legal to carry openly, you will not find a law saying so, so outside of those exceptions, it's legal.

Originally Posted by phillyrube

What is this cop thinking? Let a possible suspect unholster his own gun and clear it?? Sounds like they have some issues up there.....

Suspect of what? The officers in the story, if all that is true, are lucky they didn't get someone hurt. If open carry is legal, no PC to demand an inspection of the weapon existed.

[fedguy889]

Originally Posted by t150vsuptpr

If you are LE, you should strive to attain a better understanding of law, and of the United States Constitution. If your state's law is in conflict, it will eventually be ruled unconstitutional. That's where the phrase comes from.

Also, if open carry is not prohibited, it's legal. Doesn't need to be a law making it legal for it to be so. Va. is an open carry state. With few exceptions (specified in law) it is legal to carry openly, you will not find a law saying so, so outside of those exceptions, it's legal.Suspect of what? The officers in the story, if all that is true, are lucky they didn't get someone hurt. If open carry is legal, no PC to demand an inspection of the weapon existed.

+10000!!!

Read the bottom portion that is in red.

DICKSON CITY — A Friday evening police incident spilled over into a Borough Council meeting Tuesday, with gun-rights advocates alleging harassment by two police officers.



The regular monthly meeting erupted into a full-blown debate on the Second Amendment, with more than 20 Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association members — many of whom were openly armed — arguing their right to carry a weapon in public.

Police have yet to release a report of the incident in which a group of customers at Old Country Buffet were questioned about openly carrying handguns in public. At least one of those customers, Rich Banks, of Luzerne County, was detained for refusing to cooperate with police in regard to his concealed .38-caliber handgun, Police Chief William Stadnitski said. Mr. Banks’ weapon remains confiscated, but the chief said he can pick it up at any time.

Pennsylvanians are required to carry a permit for a concealed weapon; however, there are exemptions, such as in the case of Mr. Banks, who Dickson City police later found out had a federal gun-dealer license.

“We don’t feel there was any misconduct. We did what we had to for the safety of the customers,” Chief Stadnitski said of his part-time officers, Karen Gallagher and Anthony Mariano, who responded to the restaurant after 911 received complaints. The chief said no charges will be filed.

But some, like Andrew Koch, disagreed. Mr. Koch drove more than five hours from Pittsburgh to speak out for Mr. Banks and the other gun owners who were “embarrassed, oppressed, harassed and violated” by the police.

“These officers need to be disciplined, and criminal charges need to be brought against them,” Mr. Koch said.

Firearm association members turned out from all over the state at Tuesday’s meeting after postings on Internet sites, such as www.opencarry.org. The co-founder of that site, Lancaster resident Mike Stollenwerk, drove from Washington, D.C., to protest the police conduct.

“Normally when hiccups like this happen, they don’t go as far as gun seizure. ... Usually it gets cleared up much quicker,” he said.

Bill Grumbine, of Kutztown, carrying a Springfield XD-45 handgun, said he brought his 15-year-old daughter, Emily, for a “real-life civics lesson.”

“The last thing we want to do is use our guns, just like the last thing you want to do is use the air bag in your car,” he said. “But we believe in being prepared, and we believe in exercising our rights.”

Several council members and Mayor Anthony Zaleski defended the police officers.

“Our officers did not know what to expect. They could be walking into situations similar to shootings at school campuses and other public events,” said council President Barbara Mecca.

Contacted by The Times-Tribune, Lackawanna County District Attorney Andy Jarbola declined to comment on this specific case, but said people have a right to openly carry a weapon without having to show identification or a permit.

“Police can ask, but if they don’t want to give it, they don’t have to,” he said. “It’s going to be surprising to the public, but that’s the current state of law.”

Contact the writer: cschillinger@timesshamrock.com

[Steve in PA]

Originally Posted by Bssthound98

Contrary to all of their beliefs, and that of the last poster... it is NOT legal to open-carry a firearm in pennsylvania. The pennsylvania firearms chapter allows for concealed carry on a person or in a vehicle. I Just read the 2008 crimes code again as it was updated in our station.
My $.02

I don't know where you are getting your information, but here's your $.02 back because you are wrong.

Open carry IS legal in PA, to include the city of Philly (where you need a LTC). There is no law against open carry in PA. The LTC "allows" a person to carry concealed or in a vehicle. Concealment is not required.

[MPSoldier84]

I hate rendering my opinion.... and while I neither condone or pass judgement against the Dickson City Police Officers who responded I wasn't there. My whole opinion is whether it's LEGAL or NOT to carry open in Pennsylvania... Why do it? You KNOW it's going to grab attention! So why do it? Just pay the 30 bucks and get the concealed permit and you don't have a problem.

[t150vsuptpr]

It's not a lawful open carry that drives these incidents, it's an unreasonable fear on the part of those members of society who have abrogated their own responsability for their own safety coupled with a response from police so anxious to appease those unreasoned fears that they often forget law. Better to respond, see that it's a lawful carry (simply ask complainant if any threats made, any brandishing, any intoxication? If not, if you can easily see the weapon is carried openly and safely holstered by casual observation ... no allegation of any crime then exists. ), and instead of rousting the law abiding gun owner(a citizen also, no PC exists for any detention or inquiring questions, make some small talk maybe but he's totaly free to go when he wants), educate , the ones who hold the unreasoned fear (ie: tell them that open carry is in fact ... legal) I think.

The mear fact that someone is "afraid" or "alarmed" is scant reason to assume that a law is broken. That they may expect action is scant reason to violate another's rights.

Perhaps if more honest folk did exercise their rights, these "uninformed of society" would get used to it, and maybe the evil doers will also take note, and life in that area become safer?

Especially during hunting season, it is very common to see folk walk around at gas stops, coffee shops, etc openly carrying in a hunting holster. Not very likely to have an armed robbery at the local 7-11 when regular customers are visiting with .44s hanging in holsters across the chest or at their side at 4 or 6am as they prepare for the day's hunt. Customers don't call in complaints on them? Is the law different then?

State's laws generally do not address open carry on the part of POLICE either, usually just exempting them from having to have permits to carry concealed.

Just some rambling thoughts .........

[G-MAN]

In regards to that Dickson City incident, I travel to that area often and you have some hardcore 2nd amend. people up there!

These people aren't openly carrying or wanting to carry for tactical reasons, they are doing it because they know they can legally in PA and to stand up for their 2nd amend. rights!!

They get fired up over things like this, especially in PA, where you will never get the politicians to enact new gun laws no matter how many people get killed in Philly.

About open carry, I am also a LEO in PA and as Steve said open carry on foot in PA is legal w/o a permit unless you are openly carrying in Philly, then you do need a permit.

If I were to come about a person openly carrying I would do nothing. I might wonder if they were a LEO and strike up a conversation just for being curious. In the Dickson City incident I would have responded and saw that there was no disturbance and that there were just some openly armed people enjoying a dinner. Which again is legal. I hate to bash other LEO's but they could have done things way differently and had no reason to even check the gun let alone take it.

I know for a fact they will get sued by these people.

Again, OPEN CARRY IN PA IS LEGAL!

From a tactical standpoint please conceal.

G-man
1*

[grog18b]

Originally Posted by MPSoldier84

Why do it? You KNOW it's going to grab attention! So why do it?

First off, open carry in PA is legal. Read your PA Constitution.

To answer the question above... Because it's a right. Why do you vote (or not vote)? Why do you go to church (or choose not to)? Why do you come to this forum and post? Because they are your rights. I don't need to explain why I would choose to open carry, or not to. Personally, it's nobody's business. Why some people get off on pushing their beliefs on others is beyond me. Plain and simple, it's the right of every human being to protect themselves, and if they choose to do that by carrying a firearm, then so be it. If you are a cop, like I am, why do YOU open carry? Why not forgo the gunbelt and tuck that firearm into your pants so as to not draw attention to yourself? Because you don't have to, that's why. Because it's easier for you to get to, and USE in a self protection manner. That's the whole point in carrying a firearm, right? Who knows how many crimes have been prevented before they were carried out by openly carrying officers, and or citizens? No one knows except the criminals. Some cops will say that criminals could disarm the citizen. Well... They can disarm us too. The fact that citizens choose to carry firearms gives them the CHANCE to defend themselves and others. Everyone should have the right of self defense.

Just because the majority of society CHOOSES not to exercise their rights to keep and bear arms, does not mean those rights are given up. Bottom line is, any State that allows open carry, people should exercise that right. I do.

Our chief council advised us, in answer to this very question (Do we as police officers have the right [interesting use of the word] to stop a citizen openly carrying a firearm, absent any other indication of criminal behavior, for ID and licensing purposes?

Answer: No, we as police officers do not have the right to stop someone, by the mere fact they are exercising a right guaranteed by the PA State Constitution.

[grog18b]

Originally Posted by t150vsuptpr

It's not a lawful open carry that drives these incidents, it's an unreasonable fear on the part of those members of society who have abrogated their own responsability for their own safety coupled with a response from police so anxious to appease those unreasoned fears that they often forget law.

The mear fact that someone is "afraid" or "alarmed" is scant reason to assume that a law is broken. That they may expect action is scant reason to violate another's rights.

Perhaps if more honest folk did exercise their rights, these "uninformed of society" would get used to it, and maybe the evil doers will also take note, and life in that area become safer?

Especially during hunting season, it is very common to see folk walk around at gas stops, coffee shops, etc openly carrying in a hunting holster. Not very likely to have an armed robbery at the local 7-11 when regular customers are visiting with .44s hanging in holsters across the chest or at their side at 4 or 6am as they prepare for the day's hunt. Customers don't call in complaints on them? Is the law different then?

State's laws generally do not address open carry on the part of POLICE either, usually just exempting them from having to have permits to carry concealed.

VERY WELL PUT MY BROTHER... AMEN I would only add to the first part, is that some of the responses by responding LEOs are overzealous due to lack of knowledge of the laws, and of the constitution. You'd be amazed by how many fellow LEOs I've asked, don't know the laws regarding firearms. A lot of what officers know is based on personal experience, meaning that, if those officers come from a city background, they are usually more ignorant of firearms laws as opposed to those of us that hunted, and grew up with firearms, and have no fear of them. Same with citizens too. Those that grew up around them, no fear. Those that are not used to seeing them, freak out. I had a few calls while working in Pike County (a suburb of NYC) of people complaining of gunfire. (they moved in next to a range) I advised them, welcome to the country, and to get used to it. I often got the "You mean you are not going to do anything about it????" response, but, they were told the same thing by management.

[AOBRICK]

Originally Posted by G-MAN

From a tactical standpoint please conceal.

1*

+1

[AOBRICK]

I find myself in these discussions more than I really want. While I belive these guys are doing no wrong and a part of me applauds their efforts It seems that CC is so much easier and less frustrating I never leave my house with out a gun (duty or off) but myself and a friend open carried once and my friend when asked why he carried a gun replied to a very disturbed soccor mom "Because beating someone to death is a lot of work"-Mateer
Get your permit and cover it up. Or maybe im lazy

[Taylor1430]

Originally Posted by MPSoldier84

I hate rendering my opinion.... and while I neither condone or pass judgement against the Dickson City Police Officers who responded I wasn't there. My whole opinion is whether it's LEGAL or NOT to carry open in Pennsylvania... Why do it? You KNOW it's going to grab attention! So why do it? Just pay the 30 bucks and get the concealed permit and you don't have a problem.

I will ask this question again since it seems to be lost....

WHY do it, even if its legal? I'm not questioning the right to carry...I am all for citizens to carry legally. The question I have is why open carry if its known to cause a ruckus? As a police officer, even off duty, I am permitted to carry my weapon. When off duty, I carry concealed. I carry off duty for the same reasons that the folks in PA do. Putting tactical issues aside, why open carry if you know people will either be frightened or end up calling the police. I dont see a point in going to a local Old Country Buffet showing the weapons off (even if legal to do so). The patrons get uneasy, end up calling the police, and then this whole mess happens.

When I go to the grocery store, I am permitted to strap my 9mm to my side and go get my Cap'n Crunch and show it off all I want. Again, putting tactictal issues aside, I dont open carry when getting my Cap'n Crunch because I know other store customers will be frightened by it. I keep it concealed and Ms Jones and little Johnny in the store dont know any different.

Just because you are allowed to do something doesn't mean that you have to do it. No different then exercising my freedom of speech. Just because I am allowed to say something doesnt mean its a wise idea to stand on the street corner shouting those things.

[grog18b]

No, no one HAS to open carry. No one HAS to vote. No one HAS to go to church. No one HAS to open their mouths and speak up. No one HAS to demonstrate. No one HAS to have legal representation. Just because YOU don't think it's a good idea, or "tactically sound" does not mean that anyone else HAS to go by your opinion. You see, that's what rights ARE. You can choose to exercise them, or not. It's called CHOICE. Not everyone feels the same as you. Me personally, I CHOOSE to keep mine covered, only because I want surprise on my side. It's not MY place to tell other people HOW they can exercise that right. If you choose, like me to conceal, that's YOUR choice. If you choose to strap your hog leg to your thigh, that's YOUR choice. If you choose to be Baptist, that's YOUR choice too. If you choose to demonstrate for or against the war, that's YOUR choice.

It's all about choices. We as police officers tend to think tactically. Civilians normally do not. It's all in how you think. It doesn't make my choice right, or yours wrong. It's a CHOICE. Ask someone why they are Baptist, or Catholic, or Muslim. Why? Because it's their CHOICE.

Sure, just because you are allowed to go to church, doesn't mean you have to. It also doesn't mean you have to tell me I'm wrong for going, or disparage me for choosing to do so. It's a RIGHT, and just because most people choose not to exercise it, does not mean that right is no longer important, or valid. In PA the constitution reads in part "The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms shall not be questioned..." That is pretty clear language, if you ask me.

Why do you feel that, just because someone exercises their right, that they are somehow "showing off" or "begging for attention"? Perhaps they just plain and simple want to be armed. Perhaps their right should not be questioned?

[Taylor1430]

I am not questioning the right to carry at all. I am pro-carry all the way. I also did not say that they were begging for attention...but open carry is ASKING for attention. Then when people pay attention, it is asking for trouble. Again, I am not questioning their rights to do so...but in these situations, a little common sense (and courtesy) goes a long way. I'm not sure why you keep comparing it to going to church or voting...completely seperate issues. Yes, they are all rights but if I CHOOSE to go to a catholic church, its much different then CHOOSING my right to carry open in an Old Country Buffett knowing that not everyone around me is comfortable with guns around them.

I can choose to excercise my right to stand on a street corner with some friends and yell racial slurs at passersby...it is my RIGHT to assembly and my RIGHT to free speech. Just because its my RIGHT, does not make it a good idea to do so...because there will be consequences by those who do not agree or are unfamiliar with my right to do so.

But you are absolutely right...these folks have every single right to go into an Old Country Buffet and open carry...they also suffered the consequences of someone calling the police...and the fact that the officers were not aware of the laws is besides the point...there were families in there scared enough that the police were called...and I know you are going to tell me again that its their RIGHT to do so, but the whole situation could have been avoided if a little common sense came into play and somebody said "Hey...maybe I should untuck my shirt and cover this thing while I eat breakfast."

[Nightshift va]

Our job never changes. There is also always a monday morning quarterback who was not there who sit and judge the police to include not just citizens but fellow LE as well. I respect the 2nd ammendment however, if I was sent to a call for service and people were armed regardless of violation or not I will do what I need to do to make sure the scene is safe and secure and do so with respect and making sure to explain things clearly as to why Iam doing so. This quells a great deal of angry people who feel they are being 'violated' when i briefly disarm them for safety til the investigation is complete. If i do so and they defiantly resist my request by telling me they are not going to allow me to take safe precautions they may receive harsh treatment or worse. I don't care if open carry is allowed or not for my brief encounter on a call I was sent to 'not by choice" but one I had to go to it is not unreasonable to seperate a gun from a citizen and Im a member of the NRA as well. To me, THAT is common sense.

[G-MAN]

I've seen these types of "Stand up for your 2nd amend rights" groups. I am all for them and their cause because to me they are law abiding gun owners.

As for disarming for officer safety....Yeah you could but I'm not going to try and disarm 30-50 people, heck more can happen with trying to do that then the safety your trying to accomplish in the first place.


G-man
1*

[Steve in PA]

No one has to open carry, but if they choose to, so be it.

Just because we don't like it, doesn't make it wrong.

The fact that the officers did NOT know the law is exactly the point. Just because a group of people is "alarmed" or "uncomfortable" with another group, doesn't mean the second group did anything wrong. Which is exactly what happened in this case.

The correct way to have handled this call was to speak to the manager and find out what the call was about. A group of people were openly carrying handguns, legal in PA. Did the managers have a problem? No. Did the managers want the people to leave to make the others feel comfortable again? No. Okay........have a nice day.

Open carry is legal in PA. The gunowners were doing nothing wrong. They were under no obligation to talk to the police. Remember your basis police 101, a person is walking down the street, unless you have reasonable suspicion that criminal activity is afoot........the person is under no obligation to speak to you, nor can you demand any identification. Okay, you can demand it, but they can say no and walk away.

There was no "criminal activity afoot" in this case. Commonwealth v. Hawkins also states that since open carry is legal, as is concealed carry, there mere fact that the person is carrying is not a criminal act.

As for disarming for officer safety.....that's a different matter. But the running of the serial numbers was for what reason?

[akflyer]

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