Cal Pers

[UtlGoa]

Does any one know anything about working as a law enforcment officer in another state, after you have medically retired from Cal Pers. Are there any limitations. If so, how can Cal Pers inforce them.

Thanks

[L-1]

Don't know how to explain this one in 25 words or less. Let's assume you incurred a work related injury that makes it medically inappropriate for you to lift or drag over 50 pounds. Because you are expected to lift or drag more than that weight as a cop (my agency requires us to be able to drag 200 pounds), you receive a disability retirement.

You can take any non-PERS job that does not require you to perform the duties that resulted in your receiving a disability retirement. In this case, you can't take a job that requires you to lift or drag 50 pounds or more.

Because the physical requirements of most police jobs are similar, it's going to be hard to find another peace officer position that is within your limitations unless its one of those really passive investigative jobs.

If you take a job performing the duties that got you retired, CalPERS has two remedies. If you are under 50, you lose your pension but you have a right to be reinstated in your old position. If you are over 50, you keep your retirement but you lose the 50% tax free status on your pension.

There are a lot of other quirks in the system so you really need to consult an attorney or check with CalPERS.

[deputy x 2]

Originally Posted by L-1

Don't know how to explain this one in 25 words or less. Let's assume you incurred a work related injury that makes it medically inappropriate for you to lift or drag over 50 pounds. Because you are expected to lift or drag more than that weight as a cop (my agency requires us to be able to drag 200 pounds), you receive a disability retirement.

You can take any non-PERS job that does not require you to perform the duties that resulted in your receiving a disability retirement. In this case, you can't take a job that requires you to lift or drag 50 pounds or more.

Because the physical requirements of most police jobs are similar, it's going to be hard to find another peace officer position that is within your limitations unless its one of those really passive investigative jobs.

If you take a job performing the duties that got you retired, CalPERS has two remedies. If you are under 50, you lose your pension but you have a right to be reinstated in your old position. If you are over 50, you keep your retirement but you lose the 50% tax free status on your pension.

There are a lot of other quirks in the system so you really need to consult an attorney or check with CalPERS.

I agree with L-1.

If you were granted a disability/medical retirement you shouldn't be able to become a police officer anywhere else. Part of the disability retirement is the inability to preform the job requirements of a police officer...so how would you be able to be a cop in another state? Like L1 stated, unless the requirements were different, it would probably be a "no no" with workers comp and your dept may stop your pension.

California's workers comp reform is a joke. We have been battling with them for five years. Deputyx1 was medically retired after two on the job injuries. We "settled" for lifetime medical on the injury. Now, authorization for ALL medical treatments have been stopped. We now have to pay for all doctors appts and treatments.

WC will only pay for the treatment if it cures the problem. Hell, if the problem was curable, Deputyx1 would still be a cop. As it stands, Deputyx1 cannot drive, sit for a long period of time or walk further than a block.

Sorry, I started to vent. Back to the subject. If you contact an attorney make sure he/she is a workers comp attorney. Also the State of California has a website http://www.dir.ca.gov/IMC/imchp.html. or http://www.dir.ca.gov

Good luck to you!

Edited- re worded

[UtlGoa]

Do you think Cal Pers would be able to answer my question. Or should I just contact a retirement Lawyer.

I have had friends that have retired (medical) from law enforcement in California, but went to Idaho and became sworn officers there.

As far as reinstating back to the department I retired from. How could they make me do that when I have moved clear across the country. Also I asked my department before I moved if I was cleared by my doctor to return to work if they would hire me back. They told me they would, but city hall would not.

I am not arguing anything you guys have said, I'm just trying to make sure I do the right thing before I accept a sworn position where I live now.

[deputy x 2]

Originally Posted by UtlGoa

Do you think Cal Pers would be able to answer my question. Or should I just contact a retirement Lawyer.

I have had friends that have retired (medical) from law enforcement in California, but went to Idaho and became sworn officers there.

As far as reinstating back to the department I retired from. How could they make me do that when I have moved clear across the country. Also I asked my department before I moved if I was cleared by my doctor to return to work if they would hire me back. They told me they would, but city hall would not.

I am not arguing anything you guys have said, I'm just trying to make sure I do the right thing before I accept a sworn position where I live now.

I would suggest a Worker Comp lawyer in California! They are aware of the recent changes.

Sounds like you were deemed permanent and stationary and forced to retire.

If you need any assistance PM me.

[L-1]

Originally Posted by UtlGoa

Do you think Cal Pers would be able to answer my question. Or should I just contact a retirement Lawyer.

Believe it or not, CalPERS is not adversarial about giving info on this and they go out of their way to give you good advice. (They even run seminars for both retirees and those about to retire, telling them about every loophole in the system that will allow you to squeeze every penny you can out of the state.) However, once in a while you will get someone at CalPERS who is not really well versed on public safety issues or who has trouble understanding your question and starts winging it, That's why I would also cross check with a California W/C attorney who specializes in cops.

Originally Posted by UtlGoa

As far as reinstating back to the department I retired from. How could they make me do that when I have moved clear across the country.

No one will make you move home and resume your old job again, it's your choice. However, no matter what you decide, you will lose your pension (or the tax free disability portion) if you are back to performing the same duties that you couldn't do before.

Originally Posted by UtlGoa

Also I asked my department before I moved if I was cleared by my doctor to return to work if they would hire me back. They told me they would, but city hall would not.

Under the government code, your agency must make you a bona fide offer of re-employment if your pension is cancelled. If they refuse, you will need to go back to court and get an order either mandatory reinstating you or reinstating your pension.

[UtlGoa]

When I was going through the workers comp crap with my injury, I hired a lawyer. I guess I'll call him Monday and see if he can answer my questions. Or should I find a retirement lawyer.

Once again, thanks for the help. I just want to do the right thing and not loose my retirement. I make more on my retirement than the State Police, Sheriff's and Police Officers make back here in a year.


"Sounds like you were deemed permanent and stationary and forced to retire."
The personnel manger for the city came to my deposition with the city lawyer. She told my lawyer that the city did not want me back. It was all down hill from there.

[deputy x 2]

Typical WC crap...trust me. I know first hand.

You can call the lawyer you had, however he/she was already paid and isn't going to get a cent because your case was settled. We called our WC lawyer back to see if he would help us with the crap that is going on now. We have to pay him out of our pockets. The good thing is, once they know you have retained a lawyer, they cut most of the crap out. THE FIGHT IS ON!

Again, I say a WC lawyer. I don't know what you mean by retirement lawyer.

Like I said, my offer stands, if you need anything on my side (California) let me know.

[UtlGoa]

The Lawyer I had delt only with the workers comp side of my injury. He had nothing do do with my retirement. He told me if the city starts screwing me during my retirement I would have to hire a Retirement Lawyer.

Before I moved from California to Kentucky I contacted Pers to change my address. I asked the lady on the phone if I could go back to being a Police Officer in another state, and if it would hurt my retirement. The lady asked if the employer was a Cal Pers agency. I told her no, not in Kentucky. The lady told me they did not care what I did outside the state of California. I asked her if I could get that in writing. She refered me to the "Employment after retirement" publication that Pers offers. I went to Pers web site and read the pamphlet. It says nothing about working outside the state of California. It tells about working within the state.

Maybe you could read it and see what your take is.

As far as being forced out, you hit it on the head. I loved my career, but what do you do when doctors tell the city to retire you. Oh, and all this was over a knee injury I sustained getting out of a unit. I did have four arthroscopic surgeries done, but my knee is just as good as it was before the injury happened. I'm only 36 and I'm to young to be retired.

[deputy x 2]

Okay I read it.

Page 5 Under what you chould know before working after retirement.

Employment while disability retired:
If your employment will be with a non Cal Pers employer-Your employment must be in a position significantly different from which you were found to be disabled.

I don't know if this only pertains to California but I don't see anything about being in another state.

Hmmm,,Maybe SgtTom can help out! He's pretty knowledgeble. Zip him a PM and ask him to look at this thread

[UtlGoa]

Who is Sgt Tom?

Well you read it like me then. I just don't want to do anything that is going to make me loose my retirement. Maybe if I still lived in California where I can make more money as a police officer, but not here in Kentucky.

[deputy x 2]

sgttom is a forum member. Look him up on the members list and PM him.

I'd check into it before you make your decision. Yes you can make a good living out here as a cop. However, if you are medically retired, you can't afford to live here on 50% of your salary.

[Graydog]

Ok here is the skinny on working in another state after a medical retirement from Ca. I called CALPERS last year and ask that very question, as I was thinking about working in another state. I too have retired medically from Ca. The woman told me on the phone that you can work in any state outside of Ca. and NOT in a job with a Calpers retiremnet, then CALPERS has nothing to say about it. As long as it is in another state and you can meet all the qualifications of the new employer.
I hope that helps you out.
I think the key here is to work out of state in a non-Calpers job.

Good Luck


Graydog,
Retired from Ca.

[SOCALCOP]

This all sounds good as I too am about to be medically retired and I already live in another state. The question is though how many departments outside of Ca. will actually hire someone who has an existing injury as a result of being a police officer? I read Idaho hired a medical retiree from California but it sound like 2nd hand info. Anyone here actually medically retired from Ca. and re-hired as a police officer in another state? I applied for 2 non-sworn positions in NC and I was "not chosen." One agency did not even send me a letter. They just ran a credit check then ignored me.

[UtlGoa]

Well I called Pers this morning, and as expected I got a woman that had no idea how to answer my question. So she takes my name and phone number and refers my question to the "IDR" Industrial Disability Retirement section. I asked how long until I get a phone call. I'm told it can take up to three days.
So now I just sit and wait.

Graydog,

What you were told is the same thing I was told. I just don't want a bomb shell dropped on me if I go back to work as Police Officer.

[deputy x 2]

Figures...When she calls back, have her send the info in writing just in case.

Then you are covered because when the crap hits the fan, no one will fess up to authorizing your return to police work.

We keep everything including the postmarked envelopes. Our WC/retirement file is about 16 inches thick.

Good luck to you and I hope it works out.

Did you get ahold of sgttom?

[UtlGoa]

She told me she was going to send me the "Employment after retirment" publication. I told her I already had it, and it did not state anything about out of state employment.

Graydog is now the third person that I know of that has also talked to Pers and was told the same thing I was.

As far as keeping everything. I have kept everything from my first workers comp claim report from my department. I learned the game very quick. Sucks it has to be that way, but no one else is going to cover your back when it comes down to it.

[8656]

LOL. My personal WC file is held in five full three ring binders and growing by the day. I too kept everything from day one.
Luckily I could retire for service pending IDR so I don't need to return to work nor could I realistically do police work now anyway. PERS granted my IDR about two years after I retired so that helped financially. WC however is still fighting with my lawyer over the claims we filed on my way out the door. Interestingly, their own freaking doctor found a "heart condition" which really sent them spinning.
It has now been going on five years and I hope to get it wound up later this year, but we will see.
I like finding other people on this forum who know what it is like to get involved with the crappy WC system. It makes one feel less alone.
Keep after them and good luck to you both. They must really hate those of us who don't just fold and run away after their first denial letter.

[UtlGoa]

8656,
Keep your head up, it will be over soon. As for me, I've been done with workers comp for almost two years now. They paid me my settlement and out the door I went. As I posted earlier the city I worked for did not want me back, and they made sure through their doctor that I did not come back.

I contacted my WC lawyer yesterday. He told me it did not matter if Pers said it was okay to return to work as a Police Officer in another state. He said the city I worked for could fight it. He asked that I call the POA Lawyer and see what he says. I'm waiting on a call back from him as I write this.

[UtlGoa]

Ok, here is another question for you guys. Do you think a Bailiff would be considered a diffrent job discription than a Police Officer.

The reason I ask is the Sheriff's Department where I live is currently doing my back ground investigation for Bailiff. I don't want to run the chance of screwing up my retirement with Pers.

[deputy x 2]

Our dept has deputies assigned to different duty stations ie jail, patrol, civil,coroners and bailiffs. But we are all under the same classification as deputies. Unless it is a separate classification, I would think the answer would be, no.

Did you get your info in the mail yet?

Speaking of, I went to the lawyer's today regarding worker's comp bs.

So you were medically retired because of your knee injury, but you've since had surgery to correct it. So you can do the job. BUT THEY didn't have a job for you. IS that right?

[UtlGoa]

I had four knee surgeries over the course of two years. After the third one the city I worked for did not want me back. At the time of my injury I was a Detective. When I filed my disablity retirment papers Pers asked the city why I could not continue with my job I was doing. The city told Pers they did not have modified positions, and it was all or nothing. So they retired me. All this came from stepping out of a unit and turning my body, but my foot stayed in place.

The Doctor found me 64% disabled in my right knee, and gave me 50% standing, 50% sitting work restrictions. Which was exactly what I was doing as a Detective.

Before I moved to Kentucky I went back to my department and spoke with my old Lt. and Capt. and asked them if I got cleared by my doctor if I could come back to work. I explained to them that I have continued to rehab my knee. I was told my department would hire me back in a heart beat, but city hall would not.

So now here I am, 36 years old and the only thing I know how to do is law enforcement. I have no other formal training. And as you are probably aware, the training they offer you after retirement is a JOKE!!!

[deputy x 2]

Voc Rehab is a joke. At least they now give you the option of taking the 16K instead of "their" retraining course. As I wrote to someone else, 4K went to the counselor and the rest wasn't enough to get any kind of training for a job placement.

Again good luck and keep us posted.

Have you looked into the possibility of being a PI?

[UtlGoa]

Okay, I heard from the Pers IDR sector about my question of returning to law enforcement in another state.

The lady on the phone tells me this. "You can not go back to work performing the same duties as you were when you were injured for any law enforcement agency in the United States." Then I'm told, "If Pers finds out that you have gone back to work they will (A) stop your retirement, and (B) file fraud charges against you."

Then I'm told I should reinstate from my retirement if I want to go back to work as a Police Officer. I explain to the lady that I no longer live in California, and will never again live in California, so how do I reinstate. She has no answer. Then I ask, If I reinstate will Pers cut me a check for the money I have contributed into my retirement since I will not be working for a Pers agency. Lady has no answer. Lady tells me she checked all this information out with a lawyer before she called me.

I also tell her that I have checked with two lawyers and was told Pers can not do anything about me going back to work in another state. Lady starts to get mad. Tells me I run the risk of loosing my retirment if I go back to work. I explain to her about the lawyer telling me about 200 or so cops from California medically retiring and moving to other states and becoming cops again. She tells me "They just have not been caught yet" Then she tells me "We now know about you." Phone calls ends.

I don't understand. You call Pers and ask one person a question and get told one thing. Then someone else from Pers tells you a total diffrent answer. What is it the blind leading the blind. I'm more confused now than I was before the lady called me back.

[L-1]

Dude,

It's like a couple of us have told you. If you go out and start performing the same duties that you couldn't do with your old agency, you no longer qualify for disability retirement and your pension can be cancelled. When this happens (and in order to keep you from getting the short end of the stick) the law gives you the right to reinstate to your old job. If you don't want to reinstate that's up to you. However, any obligations owed to you under the law will have been fulfilled.

If you want to chance it, go ahead. But the picture you are painting is that you are trying to roll into your new peace officer job before the disability pension has even been approved from your old one. This smells like big time fraud. In addition, it also prevents you from offering the defense that you simply got well over time.

I'd give a lot of thought to this before doing it.