Shocking footage - Police Forums & Law Enforcement Forums @ Officer.com

COPS · 06-14-2005, 04:11 AM

Pun intended, did this guy deserve to be tasered while fully restrained? http://video.cgi.cbsnews.com/video/v...art=news.video

Puget Sound · 06-14-2005, 04:24 AM

Absolutely he deserved it. He struggled and he wouldn't comply. If you do that, there's a good chance you'll get tased.

Boohoo, he was black. He could have just as easily been white.

Sebastian · 06-14-2005, 05:09 AM

That's absolute bull$%#@. He was overpowered, outnumbered, and handcuffed. Why would they taser him. From the video shown in that report, it looks like a bad call. I have a good feeling they didn't show the whole video and edited it to fit their story, but from that tape I was amazed. Shooting him 5 times? What the hell? I'm sorry...

7mmMag · 06-14-2005, 06:39 AM

All I can say is wow. Based on what I seen, the guy was fully restrained, why didn't they just dump him in the holding cell, back out, and observe from safety. They had several officers on hand, its not like it was one or two against one. I'm a little bit disturbed to tell the truth. Further, (and yes, I know, this is coming from the media) the guy had no criminal history and seemed to be a good citizen (once again, I KNOW, all we have to go on right now is the media report). I just don't see the reason for the tazer. How would this have been handled if no tazer had been available?

RU10-35 · 06-14-2005, 06:43 AM

You resist, you get tased, cuffed or not. What else should the officers have done? There were many officers present, and if that many officers could not get sufficient control of a combative suspect, there is a problem there that handcuffs will not solve. Step it up a level on the use on force continuum....presence didnt work, verbal didnt work, soft hands didnt work, whats next? Less lethal weapons. IMO, those officers were justified 100%. They just ran out of options in dealing with this guy. If he did indeed have a fatal heart attack, I'd sure like to know what other conditions existed that caused it. I can promise it's not just from being tased. Was he drunk? On drugs? Even if not, he was worked up about someting to a big degree. They said he had an epileptec (sp?) seizure and "accidentally" wounded an officer. Sure, and if I buy that, will you throw the golden gate in for free? Even if he DID in fact have a siezure, what was the reason for the police to contact him to begin with? Also, in the video, the 'lawyer' says something like "what else can any human do when theyre hancuffed but try to get away?" EXCUSE ME.....what is that point of handcuffs?! I do not for one minute believe this guy was as innocent as the press made him out to be. Another case of "Everybody loved little Johnny" after the fact.

Sorry, I'm still new enough to LE to let the press get to me.

RU10-35 · 06-14-2005, 06:51 AM

Also, just to add another little tidbit for my previous rant, if he had had a seizure, and then was taken to jail, he has to be checked out by medical before going into a holding cell. If they had just dumped him off in a holding cell (which, granted, would probably have been the wisest choice had the alleged medical condition not existed), he could have hurt himself, or had another siezure. Because he was handcuffed and had leg restraints on, the possibility exists for positional asphyxia, as well as choking on his tounge or vomit should he sieze again. That is another lawsuit waiting to happen for the press to blow out of whack...."Those officers KNEW he had a medical condition and they just left him in there all tied up to die!"

As usual, we are damned if we do and damned if we dont.

7mmMag · 06-14-2005, 07:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RU10-35

Also, just to add another little tidbit for my previous rant, if he had had a seizure, and then was taken to jail, he has to be checked out by medical before going into a holding cell. If they had just dumped him off in a holding cell (which, granted, would probably have been the wisest choice had the alleged medical condition not existed), he could have hurt himself, or had another siezure. Because he was handcuffed and had leg restraints on, the possibility exists for positional asphyxia, as well as choking on his tounge or vomit should he sieze again. That is another lawsuit waiting to happen for the press to blow out of whack...."Those officers KNEW he had a medical condition and they just left him in there all tied up to die!"

As usual, we are damned if we do and damned if we dont.

What I meant by being dumped in the holding cell is that at that the same time he should have remained under observation. The fact is this: There is now another african american that is deceased while in police custody, while on video the officers (of which there were several) are observed applying a tazer to the man while he is in handcuffs and in what appears to be a holding cell. I'm sorry, public perception is going to rule this, as always, and even my own perception as I watched the video of the incident was that of mild alarm. The tazer in my own opinion is a great tool, when used appropriately. But now its going to take another hit (and a big one).

masterchief · 06-14-2005, 07:12 AM

i think it is very difficult to judge over a situation when you was not personaly there

i belive that the officers has good reasons for all her doings

and i think a suspect who just dont listen produce a lot of frustration

as i tell before , we all was not there and the officers has to do something

and the officers give the suspect first aid after the incident , nobody mention that

masterchief

masterchief · 06-14-2005, 07:16 AM

@ ru 10-35

As usual, we are damned if we do and damned if we dont.

this is just the point

regards
masterchief

Upstate · 06-14-2005, 07:16 AM

Why Taze the guy? The guy was cuffed inside a cell, so what if he resists? Let him. Have the 5 cops back out of the cell and leave him. (monitored of course) Our Dept doesn't carry Tazers and that's what we would have done. What purpose does it serve tazering him? Bad call.

7mmMag · 06-14-2005, 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RU10-35

You resist, you get tased, cuffed or not. What else should the officers have done? There were many officers present, and if that many officers could not get sufficient control of a combative suspect, there is a problem there that handcuffs will not solve. Step it up a level on the use on force continuum....presence didnt work, verbal didnt work, soft hands didnt work, whats next? Less lethal weapons. IMO, those officers were justified 100%. They just ran out of options in dealing with this guy. If he did indeed have a fatal heart attack, I'd sure like to know what other conditions existed that caused it. I can promise it's not just from being tased. Was he drunk? On drugs? Even if not, he was worked up about someting to a big degree. They said he had an epileptec (sp?) seizure and "accidentally" wounded an officer. Sure, and if I buy that, will you throw the golden gate in for free? Even if he DID in fact have a siezure, what was the reason for the police to contact him to begin with? Also, in the video, the 'lawyer' says something like "what else can any human do when theyre hancuffed but try to get away?" EXCUSE ME.....what is that point of handcuffs?! I do not for one minute believe this guy was as innocent as the press made him out to be. Another case of "Everybody loved little Johnny" after the fact.

Sorry, I'm still new enough to LE to let the press get to me.

The force continuum in my state is gone, now replaced with the Disturbance Resolution model. And while the tazer has not been placed in the DR model yet, those I have talked to about it (mainly Defense and Arrest Tactics Instructors) have advised it will likely be placed in the area of Empty Hand Control-Incapacitating Techniques. This is: To cause the immediate, temporary cessation of violent behavior. What is this guy doing? He's handcuffed behind the back and what, thrashing around, so what, let him thrash, in that condition the proper application of restraints would eventually wear him down.

Read also, from a recent Tazer recomendations memo from my state's training and standards board:

Revise the Disturbance Resolution Model and basic law enforcement training to include recognition of and response to medically significant behavior.
Note: Excited delirium is a medical phenomenon that has only recently been recognized as a cause of death for subjects in police custody. It is also significant because it is very likely a substantial contributor to deaths of people against whom a TASER has been employed.

Medically significant behavior, such as excited delirium, poses a difficult challenge for law enforcement officers because the distinction between purely criminal behavior and behavioral illness with criminal features can be difficult to make. Yet the differentiation between them is critical, because subjects with medically significant behavior need medical help, especially if the underlying condition is imminently life-threatening.

Puget Sound · 06-14-2005, 08:17 AM

You are all missing an important point. Whether he is in handcuffs and leg irons or not, he is STILL a danger to the officers and to himself! They applied the taser to get him to comply and stop resisting! His resistance was an officer safety issue and also a safety issue to him. He could have been in a straight jacket and he still would be a danger! I don't see how you all think just because someone is in handcuffs and leg irons means that the danger is eliminated. Wake up, people! I'm not even a cop and I know this.

7mmMag · 06-14-2005, 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Puget Sound

You are all missing an important point. Whether he is in handcuffs and leg irons or not, he is STILL a danger to the officers and to himself! They applied the taser to get him to comply and stop resisting! His resistance was an officer safety issue and also a safety issue to him. He could have been in a straight jacket and he still would be a danger! I don't see how you all think just because someone is in handcuffs and leg irons means that the danger is eliminated. Wake up, people! I'm not even a cop and I know this.

Personally sir, I think your missing the point. Fact is, everyone is going to have a different opinion on this, as usual.

Bowles · 06-14-2005, 09:41 AM

[size=3]First you have to consider the source for this video CBS news.
Second, there just isn

Pedro56 · 06-14-2005, 10:12 AM

Well, I have seen guys that are cuffed take out other officers. One guy was cuffed and shackled and it took 4 officers to restrain him. The fact that they are brining race into effect is bs in the first place. They say that whatever percent of people being tazed are of african american decent. They never mention what the racial makeup of where this happened is. I get accused of racially profiling all the time, yet I work in a district in the city where the make up is all african american. The tazer is a wonderful tool, and it has been proven to bring officers on duty injuries down. But like Bowles said we dont see the whole tape, and probably never will. We don't know if he had the epilectic seizure while fighting with the police or what. I think they did the right thing.

fed132 · 06-14-2005, 10:29 AM

After watching this video 3 times, I agree, that this suspect was probably having a seizure while being stunned, at least during one episode of being stunned. To the untrained, non-medical personnel this may appear to be active resistance, when in fact it is a seizure. If you are an epileptic, startling things, such as bright lights, loud sounds and ,yes, electricity can be a trigger for seizures. There probably was another reason he died, rather than because the acutal stun gun caused it. It was probably because he seized, which in turn results in hypoxia(lack of oxygen), which in turn results in cardiopulmonary arrest(heart attack). Just a logical deduction after watching the video and spending 10 years riding an ambulance in an urban setting and dealing with probably thousands of seizures(real and psuedo).

TheMP5guy · 06-14-2005, 10:56 AM

1. It's Taser not Tazer

2. Tasers do not bring on heart attacks. The voltage is not the key its the amps which is extremely low (0.004 amps). A taser has 50,000 volts and guess what, getting a shock off a door handle gives you between 35,000 to 100,000 volts.

3. I like how they say he assaulted an officer because he was having a seizure. Are they suggesting his arms were uncontrolable and he accidentlly hit police? Bull****.

4. He had no criminal record; he was a deacon, so what. It is an edited news report. On that given day I'll bet my paycheck he was acting like all the ****heads we deal with on the streets.

fed132 · 06-14-2005, 11:09 AM

If you have seen many seizures, you would notice that in the episode near the end of the clip, when he is being stunned, his eyes are closed and his face is expressionless, yet he has active movement, in a manner consistent with having a grand mal seizure. Therefore, he is either unresponsive and the officers are causing the movement or he is having a seizure. I would much rather go under the presumption that he is having a seizure rather than the officers stunned an unresponsive individual.

Max Fischer · 06-14-2005, 12:04 PM

I wasn't there, but looking at the video, I have to say it was disappointing... I agree with fed, and I have been an EMT for ten years, that guy was OUT while getting the shock. Come on. He was at the bottom of a polyester pileup, getting worked. Also, after he 'stopped resisting' AKA started dying, it sure looked like it took a while for anyone to start working on him. He should have been coded right away, IMHO.

To be fair, the assault against the officer while having a seizure sounds like total bull****. People having seizure behavior have tonic/clonic type activity usually, and I have never seen anyone purposely hit someone while seizing.

Anyway, my test on this issue is this. If that were MY brother in that chair getting lit up, how would I take it? Ask yourself that. And that many people in there, I TOTALLY agree with others that that would have been a great time for a tactical retreat, and give the guy a timeout.

Just my opinion, I respect and value other views, but that is how I saw it. I don't think anyone intended to kill this guy, but sometimes as humans we get caught up in the action

jerrymaccauley · 06-14-2005, 12:16 PM

More than likely, even without being tasered, the guy was gonna die. Either from the stress of the fight, drug psychosis or some medical defect. I remember when pepper spray was blamed for several deaths. Then came positional asphyxia. Now tasers are the culprit. If they would just bring back the neck restraints......

connor · 06-14-2005, 12:39 PM

How can anyone realistically make a decsion on this watching snippets of a video clearly edited to try and make it look like police brutality.

Show me the whole video and then I'll make an opinion. NO ONE can have a valid opinion on this without seeing the whole thing.

OFK · 06-14-2005, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Puget Sound

You are all missing an important point. Whether he is in handcuffs and leg irons or not, he is STILL a danger to the officers and to himself! They applied the taser to get him to comply and stop resisting! His resistance was an officer safety issue and also a safety issue to him. He could have been in a straight jacket and he still would be a danger! I don't see how you all think just because someone is in handcuffs and leg irons means that the danger is eliminated. Wake up, people! I'm not even a cop and I know this.

"According to police reports, Williams' family said he refused to take his epilepsy medication and was acting violent and irrational.

Williams got into an altercation with the first officer arriving on the scene, Gwinnett police Officer R.E. Kenyon. According to an incident report, Williams charged the officer and grabbed his baton as Kenyon tried to strike him. The two struggled over the baton and Kenyon lost his balance, falling to the ground, bloodying his nose.

Kenyon called for backup over his police radio. Several officers arrived and tackled and subdued Williams.

He was taken to the jail, where deputies were alerted that they had a "delta," Gwinnett law enforcement slang meaning a combative inmate. "

They were trying to get him out of the cuffs and in a restraining chair that is used in these situations. In order to do that, he needed to pipe down and shut up. He was a danger to himself and especially the cops, restrained or not, he could still cause a great deal of harm. He had already demonstrated his disregard, so they did what they had to to get the situation under control. It worked.

OFK · 06-14-2005, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by connor

How can anyone realistically make a decsion on this watching snippets of a video clearly edited to try and make it look like police brutality.

Show me the whole video and then I'll make an opinion. NO ONE can have a valid opinion on this without seeing the whole thing.

Ahhhh another Foamy Worshipper! And yes, only a snippet will not cut it for me either, but just a simple search can give you the whole picture pretty quick.

AggiePhil · 06-14-2005, 02:12 PM

That's about the worst quality video I've ever seen. Anybody have a better version of it?

ptcop531 · 06-14-2005, 02:17 PM

[quote=Bowles][size=3]First you have to consider the source for this video CBS news.
Second, there just isn