Psych test concerns

I've been applying to another department to pick up occasional part-time shifts. Part of the application process involved taking a standardized psychological exam. This is the first time I've had to take one of those.

Well today the chief called and said that the recommendation came back "Not Recommended." So he asked me if there was anything I wanted to tell him. I said no, I answered everything truthfully to the best of my knowledge.

Then he said it concerned the area of drug use, asking if I had used anything in the last 5-10 years. I told him absolutely not.

We ended up setting up a meeting next week to discuss this, but I can't imagine what they're referring to. I've never denied the fact that I did some mj in my younger years (light years ago), and that has never hindered me before. Even he admitted that wouldn't be something to disallow me.

I can't for the life of me figure out what's up. Does anyone have any theories?

If I don't get the job, I don't get the job. But I don't want to lose it over some mucked up standardized test. I sure don't want this following me around.

I had to take the MMPI and although there were 500+ questions on it, I don't remember anything addressing drug use. It seems like the polygraph would be the place to find out about drug use, not some multiple-choice psych exam.

I have to agree with Patrick's post here. It doesn't sound logical that this would be part of the MMPI.

That being said, I put about as much faith in the MMPI as I do in the polygraph. I think they are both a crock of crap. I've known more than one officer (or deputy) who failed one (and in some cases several) of these so called psych tests, then passed one and was hired.

IMHO then ONLY thing these tests do is to make money for the outfits that administer them.

I had a deputy tell me that it's SOP for that agency to send you to a psychologist who will fail you on the first try, every time. But you're allowed to retake the test at your own expense (without completely starting the hiring process over). Same tester, same test, and somehow everyone seems to pass on the second try.

Mike

IMHO then ONLY thing these tests do is to make money for the outfits that administer them.

Yep, they do that.

A little known fact was told to me by the Pshych Dr. that administers MMPI for this area. He does it for cops, fireman and several thousand people that work at the local nuclear plant during power outages.

He said that no matter how "normal" you appear to be, a small percentage of people will fail no matter what. Its a numbers game. If no one ever "flunked" the test would appear to be of little use.

If you fail, you come into his office for an interview, in which case you are "cleared" and allowed to work. Very few people actually flunk this test but he seems to think that it really culls the weirdos out.

We have had people flunk just to flunk. If they happen to get upset about it, he just tells them the facts. He also stated that getting mad about flunking is normal. Those that really do flunk it are more resigned about it and seem not to take it so personal.

Personally, I thinks its load of "crap." The black kind...

I know of several guys that have gone through the same thing. It stinks. In each of the cases that have seen, true quality applicants were turned away, and much lesser applicants were hired. Once again, it stinks.

I would suspect the chief was trying to get you to cop to something... I doubt it had much to do with the pysch test.

I don't disagree with them, I've seen and worked around cops that were certifiable. But the problem is that it's the shrink who decides what makes a good cop and what doesn't.

When I was hired, we had the same guy for years doing the test. Then suddenly, I had this trainee who was a bit different from anyone else I had worked with or around. Not bad, just different. I asked him about his pysch test and they had changed shrinks so this new shrink was deciding what constituted a good cop.

For a few years, our chief waived some pysch failures to bump up our minority stats and it became apparent why psych tests are important. We have some real nutsoes now we have to live with for the next 25-30 years.... And a few have gone up in rank! And they are really scary people, believe me. As annoying as they are, they do pick up some sociopaths out of the bunch.
Jim

I need to add, I flunked my first one with our county before I came on the city. I had a fight with my wife that morning as I left for the test. The shrink said I was sadistic!

When I took the city test I made sure I was in a good mood!

FWIW I actually have a degree in this crap(psychology) so here is my semi-professional opinion:

The tests for LE can test for one or both of two things; aptitude for the job and maladaptive behavior(checking to see if your screwed in the head). Aptitude is obviously up for debate and depends on the test. Some departments actually use this as an entrance exam and I don't really have a problem with it if they're using it to look for a certain kind of Officer. It pays off down the line when your not stuck on a department where you don't fit and they don't want you. The crazy test works well for those who're really nuts. The problem is that the way that the tests are structured with its' repeating and ambiqious questions that ask the same thing over and over again is that it's too easy for normal people to start to answer wrong.(and yes there are "wrong" answers).

I'll sum it up this way for any test to be "valid"; that it measures what it was meant to, it must also be "reliable", which means it must od it every time. I've taken over 20 psych tests and was not recomended about three times. I was found to be "unsuitable" once on the MMPI but when I re-took the MMPI or a variation there of for at least three other departments I did very well. If one flunks one they should flunk them all. I didn't and got hired on a department with an apptitude oriented test.

Don't worry about not doing well on one test, don't try to game the tests as they have"confidence" questions built into them (for those who try to answer the same way every time), and keep trying.

[ 05-05-2003, 11:05 AM: Message edited by: JRT6 ]

kirch,
Check your PM.

Here's an update for those interested.

First off, let me explain the test. It did not include a meeting with a psychologist or psychiatrist. It was purely a written test with about 500 questions that were answered by filling in the little circles. Then the answer sheet was sent to the testing company and they responded with their recommendations (or lack thereof).

I met with the chief today to discuss the issue. It turns out my "Not Recommended" came back due to my answers regarding drug use. However, in checking over the answer sheet, he didn't see that I had answered any questions inappropriately regarding my own drug use. So that led him to believe that it had more to do with my answers regarding permissiveness. In other words, a more lax attitude toward other people's drug use than the testing company felt was appropriate.

We looked at this set of questions together in our meeting. When we discussed them individually, the cheif had no problem with my interepretations and answers.

But the fact still remains that I came back "Not Recommended" and their hiring policy states that such precludes me from joining their department.

My only option, if I want to work there, is to retake the test. I can do so in 6 months, or, if the department can get a special dispensation from the testing company, I can take it again right away. However, the latter option is unlikey, as they would probably have to show that there was some significant recent event that would have led to skewed answers on the test.

So I'm in a holding pattern, waiting to see if I get the OK to retake the test now. If I have to wait 6 months to take the test again -- well, the jobs not SO good that I'd discontinue the search for the next 6 months.

After all this, I'm left with two concerns:

1) Here is a department that really wants to hire me and I'd like to work there. They really need the help, especially in the next few months. The hiring chief has talked to my current chief and supervisors and received nothing but glowing recommendations. And I know that I'm a decent cop (maybe a little light on the experience side, but that's improving every day). Yet a bunch of little black dots are deciding my fate.

2) If I do retake the test, do I answer differently? I truly believe I answered the questions honestly. So providing other answers would be, in a sense, a bit dishonest. I'd be providing answers that were not completely true, but instead designed to pass the test.

Ultimately, I know this is a tempest in a teapot. I know I can get hired by another department (though it'll be a longer wait). I don't really NEED the extra shifts, I'd just like them. And this department represents a little longer drive than I'd hoped for.

But, again, I don't want to lose a job because some standardized test is misinterpreting my answers.

Man that really sucks! If it was me, I'd forget about that department, and get on with your life. I know you need the cash, but it sounds to me like it's not worth the trouble.

Of course, advice is easy to give when I'm NOT in your shoes. But just knowing my personality, I probably would just say "screw it" and move on.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

I HATE THE MMPI! Although... the guy who read me the results said I was as normal as they come.

No idea aboutt he drug usage. It probably just was interpreted that because of past drug abuse and the stressors of the job could possibly lead you back down the road of drug use.

I'm not sure what your experience with drugss was, but when I mention drugs..... during background interviews, I simply say yeah I did "experiment" with drugs as a teenager, but soon realized it wasn't for me. I usually add, I have absolutely no desire to take drugs again and haven't since I was a teenager.

That is a shame they try to do it on the cheap like that.

When I took my psych eval., I spent the whole day at the psych's office. I not only took the MMPI, but two or three other tests along with a long, detailed interview afterwards. The city knew what they were getting. Giving you only an MMPI and sending it off to some unk. company to evaluate is baloney. They're getting what they're paying for, not much.