Stunt Bikers

[21blue28]

Yeah, time to stir this pot again.

Yesterday, I saw a biker on a crotch rocket doing a wheelie at a high rate of speed IN HEAVY TRAFFIC. He had a small length of straight away that he did it in, but all it would have taken was one lane change and splat. I was off duty, otherwise he would have been cited for reckless and anything else I could have creatively charged him with.

So, time to rant .......

Why do all of these liberal groups try suing gun manufacturers for products that work exactly as they were design to do? Yet, at the same time, they don't even blink at motorcycles. To me, it seems that these performance bikes are designed to go 200 MPH and they are also advertised that way. So, it should be no surprise when most kids that get them run fast. No legal response from the left. Why? Many people die each year from "abusing" this device ...... where is the logic?

Here, most bikes don't have license plates or at most they are placed so you can hardly read them. That way, little possibility to catch them when they run and they typically do. The thing is, so few people that ride them really no how to, a lot of times they reck out around the corner.

I don't believe that anyone deserves to die for stupidity. But every time I see or read about a stunt biker dying or getting seriously hurt, I can't help but think "what an idiot" when I do. Why should I shed a tear for someone who conciously disregards so many other people's safety?

Personally, I can't stand the bikes. I think that they (as a group in general) have little regard for traffic law and safety. AND I always try to slap them with tickets whenever I can.

Discuss .....

[21blue28]

Since our state has not enacted any traffic law outlawing performance bikes ....... I have to rely on the ones that are already there on the books. Therefore, I STILL am citing based on an offense. I just make it a personal habit to RARELY give anything other than citations to dudes on bikes. Not cruisers and harleys ..... although I rarely ever have to stop those types of bikes to begin with.

To be honest, I have talked with a few bikers that do have a decent attitude. These few have even expressed disdain for the idiots that have given this negative image to the bikes. Typically, though, these guys have been older and actually race semi professionally. Too bad they are a huge minority of those riding these engines with wheels.

[soflacop]

The performance bikes are a problem here in miami.. as they like to run from us =\ not much we can do in traffic and the bikes are cutting between cars and the such..

gota come up with creative ways of either sneaking up on them and getting the license number, or just hang back and wait till they catch a red light and nab them then..

and i dont have problems with ppl who ride the harleys or what not, ive never had them run from me, its the ppl who are on the performance bikes who know they can get away 90% of the time, who dont bother stopping, since unless they get killed or mess up and get captured they will have no penalty for running. =\ (no penalty meaning i cant chase them by dept policy, which means they wont be stopped, and there for unless i have thier tag, which they usually hide, they wont even get a ticket.)

[21blue28]

How would your department react to this:

You see a stunt biker acting stupid. Instead of lighting him up, you drive up next to him at a light acting "cop cool." You jump out ask for his license before the light changes, but he tries to run. You knock him off or over, thereby creating an intentional accident.

Are you backed up or would this be frowned upon? (Keep in mind, my department doesn't even allow the pit on felony chases)

[RabbitMPD]

How would your department react to this:

You see a stunt biker acting stupid. Instead of lighting him up, you drive up next to him at a light acting "cop cool." You jump out ask for his license before the light changes, but he tries to run. You knock him off or over, thereby creating an intentional accident.

Don't think that would fly at my department and I'm not going to be the one to find out.

Tis’ the season for the "stuntbikers" to come out. A few weeks ago we had our first "stuntbiker" death. He was on a stretch of road that is completely straight with a divided median for about 2 miles. This is a 4 lane road and usually is pretty clear. Except in this case about half way down there is a break in the median where cars can make a left turn into a parking lot. This "stuntbiker" was going about 80mph doing a wheelie when a teenage girl pulled out in front of him. He was alive for about 6 hours before he died. I had the privilege of seeing his mother go ballistic and scream "I told him to get rid of that bike! Why didn't he get rid of that bike?!" over and over again. The girl he hit was in really bad shape too (mentally). She puked at the accident scene.

Last year we had a "sportbike" go through the windshield of a minivan which crippled the mother of 4 young kids. These "stunt riders" don't care if anything happens to them (either do I for that matter) but they never think they will take somebody out with them. After all, they always do it in a "safe place" where nothing bad can happen. You know, because all "stunt riders" who get seriously injured or killed (or seriously injure or kill others) planned it to happen.

The majority of departments in my area have a "no pursuit" policy and these idiots know that. They run from us all the time and there isn't a thing we can do about it.

[SHERIFF]

I have talked with a few bikers that do have a decent attitude. These few have even expressed disdain for the idiots that have given this negative image to the bikes. Typically, though, these guys have been older and actually race semi professionally.

Sounds like police work. The older cops have a decent attitude and express disdain for the idiots that have given the negative image to the profession.

[21blue28]

Sounds like police work. The older cops have a decent attitude and express disdain for the idiots that have given the negative image to the profession.

I don't think that this holds a ton of water. I have seen a LOT of burnt out old timers with absolutely no work ethic left. I have seen some with great attitudes also that still love the work and have experience to boot. I have seen a LOT of rookies that truley want to go out and save the world. I have also seen some that just want a job and the badge to get girls.

Stunt bikers, on the other hand, tend to be reckless (from those that I have run into) and love to gas it almost everywhere. By the way, we have more than a few cops that have these bikes and they will admit that they ride them fast, too. Funny thing is, these same guys don't typically drive their cars that fast. Also we have even had a few die within the last 5 years or so that were riding recklessly.

[SHERIFF]

All I can suggest is that you continue to view questionable police videos when people post them here. Watch closely. The young 'uns cops always claim there was no unreasonable use of force, everything done was justified. The older veteran cops will be the first to admit the line was crossed.

Next time these bikers diss you in traffic, just do this....

http://www.break.com/index/3lanes.html

[21blue28]

All I can suggest is that you continue to view questionable police videos when people post them here. Watch closely. The young 'uns cops always claim there was no unreasonable use of force, everything done was justified. The older veteran cops will be the first to admit the line was crossed.

Next time these bikers diss you in traffic, just do this....

http://www.break.com/index/3lanes.html

Wow. I have seen that before and I never heard the background. Must have hurt.

Well, I would say there is a BIG difference between what is said here and what actually happens on the street ...... especially with the use of force. Most articles that I have read typically say something like: "officer soandso, with 16 years on the force, was faced with ....."

I would actually bet that most younger officers tend to HESITATE to use force - especially deadly use of it - because of how they are trained now. Case in point is that deputy in Ga that faced that crazy vietnam vet with the rifle. He waitied wwwaaaaayyyyyy too long to pull the trigger and in the end, that killed him. Only an example, I know.

Back to the suject though. Guys that get these sport bikes don't get them to drive slow. I cite them when they break the law. I don't make stuff up. BUT I don't give them breaks ...... call it a sport bike tax. Same as radar detectors = they automatically get the ticket with no breaks.

[RabbitMPD]

I don't make stuff up. BUT I don't give them breaks....

Same as radar detectors = they automatically get the ticket with no breaks.

Agreed. I do the same thing. I'm also the same way with people who drive the biggest SUV they can find. You have more of a responsibility when you drive something like that. I'm more likely to give a ticket to somebody doing 15mph over in a Hummer then I am to write somebody driving a Civic doing the same amount over. Whether I'm right or wrong, you decide. But that’s just me.

[Dolmen]

Back to the suject though. Guys that get these sport bikes don't get them to drive slow. I cite them when they break the law. I don't make stuff up. BUT I don't give them breaks ...... call it a sport bike tax. Same as radar detectors = they automatically get the ticket with no breaks.

In that case I hope every sports car you stop gets a ticket as well.

Since I'm one of the sportsbike riders you love to tar with the idiot brush, I'd like to try to clear up some issues.

I came to the US from England, where the riding culture is substantially different, we have a lot more training than you do here and almost nobody stunts and drag races sportsbikes, any idiot can go fast in a straight line. We are nearly all about riding twisty roads and machine control, if your bike exceeds your skill, you'll draw a lot of flak for it, just like if you ride without the proper gear.

Of course, British motorcycle police are probably also some of the finest riders in the world, good luck outrunning one of those, I don't care what bike you're on (some British constabularies actually run 1000cc sportsbikes both marked and unmarked, most run BMWs or Honda ST1300s, and they know how to ride them).

Do I pull wheelies? Not if I can help it, you can't steer without both wheels on the ground and cornering is why I bought a motorcycle, you're not a passenger in a box, you're part of the machine.

Yes I'll admit that I exceed the posted speed limit, sometimes by a not insignificant margin, (edit)but I try never to break California's basic speed law, I never travel at a speed that is unsafe for conditions and I always adhere to the axiom "never ride faster than you can see"

I will confine my "recklessness" to canyon roads I know well in the middle of nowhere, roads with very light traffic, no pedestrians, almost no houses and usually in the early hours of the weekend morning when nobody's got up yet and even if I know there's a straightaway that'll let me hit 150mph, I won't bother with it, I know I can go fast in a straight line so why would I prove it?

Again, I don't assume the road is clear, if I can't see that it's clear, I won't take the chance.

I completely agree with you that there are no shortage of idiots on sportsbikes over here, let me say that again, I agree with you, the low cost of the machines coupled with a complete lack of training gives rise to people riding machines they cannot control and quite frankly have no business being on.

These people are referred to by the larger sportsbike community as "squids", an acronym for "stupid, quick, underdressed, ignorant and dangerous", typically they'll include the stunt riding and drag racing crowd, which really damage the public's perception of sportsbike riders, dreadful films like "Biker Boyz" don't help.

Here's how to spot a squid bike;
Squids are usually most easily identified by their clothing, or lack of it, look for idiots in t-shirts, shorts, flip flops/trainers and **** pot helmets or no helmet at all, usually riding a 1000cc inline 4 with no mirrors, these are the really dangerous riders, they have no idea of responsibility and don't know how to control their machines - pulling a wheelie doesn't mean you know how to ride.

A big indicator is shiny strips up either side of the rear tire, these are a pretty decent sign that the bike has never been more than about 20 degrees from vertical - primarily because they have no idea how to corner a bike properly.

Another indicator is their license plate, if it's hidden up under the seat near the rear shock, it's a fair indicator they like to break the law - mine is out back in plain sight.

You can also spot stunt rider machines because they'll have heavy duty cages around the engines, because the bikes get dropped so often they want to protect themselves from too much damage, also look for a large rear sprocket (the chainring on the back wheel), larger sprockets make popping wheelies easier, unsurprisingly I don't have either of these mods on my bike.

Drag racing bikes will often have extra long swingarms, it makes the bike less prone to wheelies and means you can accelerate harder, but also makes them a lot slower to turn, again, mine's stock.

Fortunately these are the ones you're most likely to run into, because they're the ones most likely to be doing something stupid in a public place, I say fortunately, because I'm not one of them.

Also fortunately, the chances are these idiots are going to take themselves out of the gene pool sooner or later.

Like most serious sportsbike riders, my friends and I take safety very seriously, I ride wearing probably $1500-2000 worth of safety gear (full face helmet, gloves, jacket, boots, pants and a spine protector) and never ride drunk, unlike a lot of Harley riders I know (seriously, check out a serious biker stop out in the canyons sometime, I can practically guarantee you that the only people drinking booze will be the Harley crowd, a lot of whom will also be riding dressed like the squids above).

You must also realise that a Harley takes probably 3-4 times the distance of a sportsbike to stop, it's increased mass, coupled with inadequate brakes and a lack of weight on a front wheel that was probably taken from a pram means it has very little traction up front trying to stop a rolling mass at least double that of a sportsbike.

The long chopper style machines that have become popular in recent years are even more dangerous and even doing the speed limit will take substantially longer to stop than a sportsbike travelling significantly faster.

What am I saying? Don't assume that all cruiser riders are safe just like you assume that all sportsbike riders are dangerous, the real sportsbike riders are interested in furthering their skills, not about "going fast", that's a squid's response, it's not about speed, it's about control.

[21blue28]

Doleman, thanks for that post. Informative. I still stand by my cruisers/Harley comment. If they are DUI, then they are good at hiding it .... and that means they aren't weaving/breaking traffic law. Plus, I rarely work wrecks involving them AND when I have, the other parties were the at fault party. Plus, A LOT of the performance bike wrecks were one vehicle accidents ...... go figure! They (Harleys/crus - the bikes themselves) may be a less safe as far as mechanics/design/etc but the way they are riden overcomes that in comparison performance bikes when their riders' actions/abilities are added.

I said before that not all bikers are idiots. You are one of those that I would put in the experienced/serious crowd. I also have no problem with you stating that UK riders are more serious/safety conscious. Not as big as a sport here in the US. All the races that I see tend to be European.

[Deputy Medic]

It's not just the stupid liberals suing gun manufacturers, it's our stupid politicians, here in the tri state area it is against the law to drive a car w/o a seatbelt, ride a bicycle w/o a certified bike helmet but you can race your hawg down the interstate w/o a helmet, because "It's my right to be free." You can't smoke in any public building or business establishment. Its just plain stupid.

[Dolmen]

Doleman, thanks for that post. Informative. I still stand by my cruisers/Harley comment. If they are DUI, then they are good at hiding it .... and that means they aren't weaving/breaking traffic law.

Must be different in the south east, here on the west coast I've seen cruiser riders barely able to control their machines sober stopping at biker bars and having a couple of beers.

[Bing_Oh]

All I can suggest is that you continue to view questionable police videos when people post them here. Watch closely. The young 'uns cops always claim there was no unreasonable use of force, everything done was justified. The older veteran cops will be the first to admit the line was crossed.

Next time these bikers diss you in traffic, just do this....

http://www.break.com/index/3lanes.html

I dunno, Sheriff...gonna be tough to convert the 7-10 split on that one.

Anyway, back on topic...

The biggest problems with so many of those who ride the crotchrockets is too much power and not enough brains. Most of these guys are kids showing off. They have little or no experience on bikes (want a ticket for no motorcycle endorsement? Run the plate on a crotchrocket right around the time when the weather warms up). And, they just LOVE to do stupid things...wheelies being the big one, but anywhere from 80-100+ in residential or heavily-travelled streets is also common. Yea, I know that's a generalization, but it's true more often than not.

As for chasing them...it's usually a lost cause. We all know these guys can blow the doors off of a CVPI, we can't use spikes on em, and they're ungoldy maneuverable. Frankly, we can only hope that they're such amateurs that they drop their little plastic bike and there's enough of the rider left to handcuff.

[nitromt]

Anyone know any good nationally-known motorcycle riding schools?

[Dolmen]

The motorcycle safety foundation do a basic introductory course, it's half a day of classroom tuition followed by a couple of days of fundamentals on a small bike in a parking lot http://www.msf-usa.org/ They do an experienced ridercourse too, but it's not particularly advanced, it's mostly the same stuff you did on the basic course, just with your own bike.

Edit:
As a comparison, the UK course is the following;
Compulsory Basic Training (mandatory for riding ANY motorcycle, scooter)
Half a day of parking lot training - pre ride checks, pulling away, braking, changing gear, etc.. Pretty much the same thing as the MSF basic rider course, followed by a short road test usually riding back from the riding school's remote site to the the school's offices somewhere.

For machines over 33bhp (ie pretty much anything over about 250cc);
You must be 21 and spend 3 days riding 500cc machines on the street under instruction (1 instructor, 2 students, connected via microphones), tuition includes proper cornering technique, proper observation, correct roadcraft and lane positioning, proper braking techniques and proper slow control techniques (riding under 10mph).

The training is then followed by a half hour road test with a government examiner following behind you on his motorcycle giving you instructions over a radio microphone, he's typically checking observation, road positioning and confidence - if the limit says 50mph you had better be doing 50mph unless you have a good reason not to, dawdling along under the speed limit is a fail, it shows a lack of confidence in the machine and your abilities, putting a foot down during the slow control manouvres is also an automatic fail.

If you want more riding oriented tuition on cornering and machine control, there's the California Superbike School www.californiasuperbikeschool.com and Jason Pridmore's STAR School http://www.starmotorcycle.com

[21blue28]

So if I ride a HD past you at 12 over, you will let me go, but if I do it on a sportbike you will cite? How about folks with bumper stickers advocating a political position you disagree with? Do you allow your personal feelings on that to cloud your judgement and enforcement of the law as well?


If someone is riding like a moron, then by all means cite them. They deserve it. But if you would cut one person a break in the same circumstances, then cut the rider a break as well. Your opinion is horribly clouded and your actions are no different then citing based on race or religion. It is just as stupid as being a "Ford" man and citing every Chevy you see.

Yes there are many stupid riders, a fast powerful bike attracts them. They would get a fast car, but it would cost 3 times as much for 1/2 the performance. That does not mean that every rider on a sportbike is an idiot. Not every cop was beaten up in high school and now wants to throw his weight around because he can get away with it, but there are some, and they sure as hell stand out when they step on their wang.

Let me make it a little more clear. If I stop a performance bike (I almost never stop anyone for going less thab 20 MPH OVER), they are not getting a warning ...... almost never (remember to never say never). They tote the ticket. Why? It may make them think twice instead of stunting in the city. Why would I care if they get hurt? I really don't ..... I am more worried about the others in this town.

And I could care less if you think that I am over generalizing. I see someone riding one of those things, I also look at the person. If I stop the person, I get a first impression or at least I can size them up. Not many have I run into seemed to be the straight and narrow type. Heck, even the military types who who would "yes, sir, no sir" and stop to help change a tire for a broken down old lady have run those bikes hard in town on busy streets. I guess that it is the mystique of the bike and one "just couldn't help it." I stopped a DRILL SGT riding a wheelie down a residential area right after school one time. Why did he do it? He told me he just got it out of the shop (wreck) and he "just had to hit it once, real quick."

THESE bikes cloud STUNT BIKERS minds. AND NO, just because I give one person a break, does not mean I AM OBLIGATED to give everyone a break. AND NO, being a MC rider does not give you the protected rights as religion, race, creed or whatever. Sorry. By the way, that is the same argument that has come up with PC: if you cut ANYONE a break, you HAVE to cut an off-duty LEO a break. Nope, that argument doesn't hold water with me. But I do give PC for other reasons ...... BUT in no way shape or form does a stunt rider get the PC.

Again, I see a radar detector = citation, almost always. Stunt rider ..... same.

[LSCAP]

Originally Posted by 21blue28
Personally, I can't stand the bikes. I think that they (as a group in general) have little regard for traffic law and safety. AND I always try to slap them with tickets whenever I can.
I cite them when they break the law. I don't make stuff up. BUT I don't give them breaks ...... call it a sport bike tax. Same as radar detectors = they automatically get the ticket with no breaks.

Good response “GoGogadget. I agree.

I drove a dept Harley, now own a Honda. I’ve seen my kids picked on because they drove sport bikes. ******es me off no end. One son is a certified instructor since 18 yrs old and is friends with a lot of Biker cops. Still gets harassed by others.

I saw the same thing when I was on active duty. ******ed me off then too.

I bought my wife, and kids radar detectors. Some people like to park at the bottom of the hill to catch you when you happen to drift 2 or 3 miles over their ideal ( usually 10 over accepted in some areas of NC).

I’ve been in cars with super cautious drivers and wondered why they even own a detector.
I began to realize the detectors go off for everything and most people who own them, after a while, tend to develop a habit of driving slow
corrected sentence structor) rather than look for hidden cops

While you are picking on Bikers and radar detectors think of this true story:

Many years ago a maniac, in Brooklyn NY, held the family at bay with a gun. ( first floor of an apartment building).
Poured gas all over, then lighted it and left. When we got there, 2nd or 3rd car responding, my partner and I put a badly burned person into the patrol car, as there weren’t enough ambulances. He died on the way to the hospital. Had to clean skin out of the rear seat.

The Perp was later caught in another state by a highway cop. ( I don’t remember where) He was driving a regular older car and not a sport bike, and didn’t have a radar detector and wasn’t speeding. A Great Cop! Spent a lot of time watching people go by.

I worked Highway. Hated it because it was boring. Yet a lot of good arrests come from Highway cops.

Some day, when you have your numbers, stop and “waste some time” watching drivers. Some nervous, some too careful, some looking frozen in place. Not just the kids. Any body passing.

[21blue28]

Oh, pluhleaze .........

I don't pick on them with bogus tickets. I just make it a policy NOT to cut them breaks that I give to some others. I don't stop speeders FOR under 20 over the posted limit, so you can forget that aspect of it.

And as far as radar tetectors making people drive slower ........ yeah, right. Whatever. Sure.

And WTF are you talking about at the end of your post????? So, I should forget about stunt bikers and concentrate on other traffic stops because I could catch wanted persons who aren't bikers???? That doesn't make a lick of sense ..........

And your story about the burn victims ...... that makes zero sense as well. So what you are saying is that a traffic stop caught the BG. Oooookkkaaayyy ...... now what if he was on a bike, does that mean he should not have been stopped???????????

[Dolmen]

THESE bikes cloud STUNT BIKERS minds.

I would submit that stunt bike riders' minds are already clouded

Saying the bike is responsible for the person's actions is like blaming the gun for an armed robbery.

[miami-k9]

There are many interessting arguements here. I have been meaning to try something here in miami that might be of some use to you guys as well. Since we all know that only the runners hide their tags. And most of the time they "Alter" the tags when they hide them (bend, twist). So why not arrest for altered tag. You might have to wait for them to stop (getting gas, hanging out, barhopping). But you get the "Squids" off the road for the night and you get to tow their bike. The word will get around pretty quick that we are hitting people for this and they will be at least forced to put their tags back where they belong. Whadya think?

[21blue28]

Let me ask this first, by stunt rider, do you mean a rider who stunts? Or a rider who rides a bike with plastic on it?

I have little sympathy for a rider stunting in public. But I will not condemn a rider based on their ride, I cite based on actions and attitudes.

Whatever, do what makes you feel better.

Here, it is easy to spot the stunt rider. Bike that is built to race is given. Shorts and flip flops. Young, sh*t eating grin. Oh yeah ....... speeding, reckless driving, improper lane change, passing in a no passing zone - you know, PC.

[SgtScott31]

The media has also helped with the increase in moron bikers with movies like "biker boys." The most idiotic thing I have ever seen. My wife (an EMT) picked an 18 yr old up not too long ago who maybe had the bike a week. Attempting to do a nose stand and went ride over the handlebars and broke his neck. Dead on the scene.

I say it's nature's pruning. Those that end up a pancake due to a case of the "dumba**" deserve where they are.

[21blue28]

If you are saying that squids are the ones breaking traffic law, sure, I only write/cite the squids.