Mornin'! An introduction

[SgtFang]

How do gentlemen (and ladies).

My name is Arvil Bowmer, AKA Arv, Sarge, etc.

I'm here in a somewhat official capacity, as a modern, legitemate Bigfoot/ Sasquatch investigator, and I'm looking for professional answers and input. People like you folks make this stuff happen.

To cut down on my typing time, I don't ask anyone here to "believe" in these animals, but just to answer my questions as if they were part of a "real" case.

Also, I'm trying to put together a dedicated, night time surveillance vehicle w/ nightvision and a police style dash camera that would work with each other to capture something good. Can anyone suggest options?

To me, these animals are as real as raccoons and possums, for reasons I'll make clear eventually, but right now I'm just testing the waters around here. Does anyone have any cool stories they're willing to share? BF reports involving LEOs are always more interesting than the usual fare.

(Now I know somoene's going to come out with some story about how "Bigfoot was admitteded to be a hoax a couple years ago" but that in itself was a hoax, and the mystery is as alive as ever. I'm always happy to discuss this stuff, and I've got a fair amount of defensive info. One of your own best latent fingerprint guys, Jimmy Chillcutt of Conroe TX PD is firmly in the BF camp because of his own findings of non-human dermal ridges in some BF track casts. )

-Sarge

[Curt581]

What next?

[SgtFang]

Originally posted by Curt581
What next?

Well, for any of the rural LEOs here, have you ever responded to anything like a prowler report and on arrival noticed anything that didn't add up? Like big feed containers moved around? Or a bad lingering smell? Oversized handprints on windows? Hair caught at unusual heights on screen doors, fences etc.?

There really is a decent amount of evidence, out there, but most of it isn't handed over to the media these days because it's usually ridicule by reporters who've never set foot in the woods in their lives.

If anyone's interested in learning more, here's a great place to start-

The Bigfoot Field Researchers Organization

-Sarge

[retdetsgt]

Originally posted by SgtFang


Well, for any of the rural LEOs here, have you ever responded to anything like a prowler report and on arrival noticed anything that didn't add up? Like big feed containers moved around? Or a bad lingering smell? Oversized handprints on windows? Hair caught at unusual heights on screen doors, fences etc.?

Yeah, but we found out later it was my ex-wife.

[Curt581]

Originally posted by retdetsgt
Yeah, but we found out later it was my ex-wife.

Go for the big hairy women, do ya?

[wprebeck]

What part of Indy you in?

I'm just across the river in Louisville, and as such, we have an overabundance of Hoosiers here (what the heck is a Hoosier, anyway?) Even some of my coworkers live over there, for some strange, unknown reasons, but I digress....

Living in the city, working in the jail, means I can't help you much with your question, but I do hunt often. never seen anything myself, but I've heard of people who have. 3 of my coworkers saw "something" one day while they were out mountain biking. According to the story they told, they saw something running in front of them, and knocking over trees while it was running. The trees weren't big ones, but large enough thta it would have taken a decent amount ot strength to push over. If I'm not mistaken, one of them reported it to a webpage, but I'm not sure which one it was...

Another of my Lt's does a lot of hunting, and was telling me a story about a recent trip where he and his friends saw "something", and chased it into a large thicket (cedars, I think). By this time, it was getting dark, and no one really wanted to go in after it. I'll try and get the details, if you're interested.


I'm surprised none of you guys from the Pacific Northwest have anything to say. DId you all just work in the cities up there?

[retdetsgt]

Originally posted by Curt581
Go for the big hairy women, do ya?

Only after a few beers.... Beer has always been a weight reducer for me. The more I drink, the skinner they look!

[retdetsgt]

Originally posted by wprebeck
[B
I'm surprised none of you guys from the Pacific Northwest have anything to say. DId you all just work in the cities up there? [/B]

I have about as much faith in bigfoot as I do UFO's. That goes for most people up here. Why is it only people that live in trailer parks are abducted by UFO's? Why is it no real scientest has ever found any real evidence of BF?

One of the pictures on the website he posted is an admitted fake. After one of the men died, the others came forward and said that one of them dressed up in some sort of gorilla suit and they made that film. It goes beyond logic that something that big could go without ever being discovered by a credible source. The woods up here aren't that big anymore.

[wprebeck]

Well, since you're talking about trailer parks, what is it about the damn things that attract tornados?



I'd suspect that there are many accounts of both Bigfoot and UFO sightings that are greatly enhanced by the aid of certain narcotics...But, there are some reports out there (the guy I spoke of with the mountain bike incident doesn't even drink) given by completely sober people that actually have a family tree with branches.

Heck, people thought the coecelanth (sp?) was extinct, and had been so for millions of years, until some fisherman caughy one in the ocean. That was years ago, but you see my point. One of the other forums I frequent has a section on hunting on it. Someone started a thread on strange things seen while out in the woods, and man...ASSuming these people aren't having a good laugh, and are telling the truth, there are some weird things out on this planet.

Consider your area, if you will. From what I know of it, there are still large parts of the Northwest that are sparsely populated, correct? Well, who knows what's hanging out around such a large area, that's got little to no humans in it?

I'm not Fox Mulder, by any means, and I don't believe every crazy story I've heard. If I was that gullible, I'd be in for a hard road at work, since inmates make it their life goal to sucker officers into doing stuff for them. But, every now & then, I hear something that's at least halfway plausible...

On a side note, since this thread is supposed to be about Bigfoot, I've always found it a bit arrogant of people who think that life just doesn't exist outside of Earth. After all, it's a big galaxy, and there's more than one planet out there. There's even more than 1 galaxy out there, so statiscally speaking, wouldn't it be MORE likely that there would be SOME form of life in the universe other than humans?

[retdetsgt]

Having spent most of my adult life as an investigator, I have picked up on a few things. One is that when something sounds improbable, it's usually not true. That's why I dismiss most conspiracies. When too many things have to go a certain way for it to work, then forget it. The truth is like water and electricity, they flow easily and take the path of least resistance. None can climb very many obstacles.

To believe in UFO's you have to believe that a whole lot of people in the government can keep a secret. Human nature has proven too many times that it's impossible. Like the Hell's Angels say, two people can keep a secret if one is dead. I've found that to be a pretty good axiom.

As far as your friend hunting, few hunters I suspect haven't had a situation where they heard something they never identified. That doesn't mean it's some ape, it's usually a badger or some other small animal that makes a lot of noise, then disappears down a hole. An absence of knowledge doesn't make a truth either.

And that fish was found off the Madagascar in very deep water and I believe it was first identified in the 40's. The ocean is a lot bigger than the uninhabited areas of the NW and that fish is a lot smaller than BF. Also, there was proof that it at least once existed via fossils. There is none that BF ever has. No bones or fossils have ever been found.

How many uninhabited areas are there in central Indiana?

[fahrenheit]

Retdet, you don't have to believe in a government conspiracy involving UFOs to believe in aliens. I don't think there's any government (or other) proof of aliens, but I also think that we live in a galaxy with billions of stars and we only live in one of billions (or trillions) of galaxies in the universe. Even if only .1% of stars had planets, and only .1% of those could hold life (as we know it; this doesn't even take into account life that could take on other forms), you'd still have millions of potential planets. I'm not saying that I do or don't believe in aliens, I honestly don't know. But I don't think that anyone has enough evidence one way or the other to say for sure. And who's to say that if there is life out there, it's more advanced than we are or could get here? We would never know if there was some planet out there that was teeming with unintelligent life.

[retdetsgt]

Originally posted by fahrenheit
Retdet, you don't have to believe in a government conspiracy involving UFOs to believe in aliens.

Yeah, but nothing says they're visiting us. I'm not saying some faraway planet doesn't support life. I've just never seen any credible evidence that they are coming here and doing anal probes of people who can floss with a bicycle chain.

[retdetsgt]

Originally posted by Abagail
Hey, someone nuttier than me....welcome.

Who woulda thought?

[Cimmy]

Oh **** Ret Your to funny, I just read this post and was rollin'
by the way shouldn't you check for a funny smell before marry em?
LOL!
Oh ya I see Abagail managed to find her way here, this **** is too much, "And so are the days of our lives"
Peace out
Kim

[SgtFang]

What part of Indy you in?

I'm in Morgan Co. about 50 - 60 miles North of the Morgan Monroe State Forest and Hoosier National Forest.

Why is it no real scientest has ever found any real evidence of BF?

Actually, it's only been in the last 5-10 years that science has even been willing to look at anything. Hair samples that come back as "Unknown Animal" or "Unknown Primate" have always been swept aside, at least a couple 8'+ skeletons were unearthed in the late 1800's, but the were quickly eyeballed and written off as "big Indians" and shuffled off to museum basements without a second thought.

Recently though, we've been getting more and more mainstream scientists hopping on the band wagon with us- The mainstream primatologists George Schaller, Estaban Sarmiento, and Daris Swindler are supporting research now, and even Jane Goodall herself has been quoted as saying "Im sure they exist."

Dr. Jeff Meldrum of the University of Idaho, has been discovering some great things in various casts that point to them being made by flesh and blood feet vs. fake feet attached to boots, like flexion in the toes from track to track, signs in the tracks of a "mid-tarsal break", where the feet can bend in the middle like a gorilla or chimp's foot, and at least one track where the toes could be seen "digging in" as the subject went up an embankment.

Det. Jimmy Chilcutt is a latent print examiner who's good enough that he's occasionally called in by the FBI and CIA for his opinion, and was a bigfoot skeptic until he examined some of Meldrum's track casts that showed dermal ridges. Chilcutt was especially qualified to do this, because he's also fingerprinted every know species of primate in the world to see if he could find any traits to better help him understand human fingerprints.

Here's a little more on Meldrum and Chilcutt-

National Geographic article

One of the pictures on the website he posted is an admitted fake. After one of the men died, the others came forward and said that one of them dressed up in some sort of gorilla suit and they made that film.

I think you're confusing two different stories-

"Wasn't all this shown to be a fake?"

Also, there was proof that it at least once existed via fossils. There is none that BF ever has. No bones or fossils have ever been found.

The problem with fossils is that they only form under certain conditions. Most of the forested land in this country is to wet, and acidic to allow that formation. For what it's worth, there's no fossil record for gorillas and chimps either, for the same reasons.

With bones, you have to factor in how fast and efficient Natures clean up system is- as soon as an animal dies out in the woods, it's almost immediately eaten by other animals. The flesh is the first thing to go, then the bones (for the marrow) and skin, then finally even the teeth and claws are eaten by things like porcupines.

How many uninhabited areas are there in central Indiana?

Not as much as the PNW to be sure, but Morgan Monroe, Hoosier National, and the Charles Deam Wilderness all sort of run together, and have nearly half a million acres between them. The deer here are almost at nuisance level so there's be plenty of protein for them, lots of water sources, plenty of cover, etc.

The going theory right now is that these animals can survive in any habitat that black bears can, and the bears have been reintroducing themselves back into this area for decades. In spite of years worth of bear reports though, the Indiana DNR just admitted they were back last year when one was shot up North somewhere.

Hey, someone nuttier than me....welcome. The nuts meet on Tuesdays and Sundays. Keep away from the officers, they are a bit touchy when not fed. Have a lovely day.

What do y'all like on your pizza?

-Sarge

[retdetsgt]

Originally posted by Cimmy
Oh **** Ret Your to funny, I just read this post and was rollin'
by the way shouldn't you check for a funny smell before marry em?
LOL!

The first thing alcohol numbs is the sense of smell. Judgment is next....

[Stormy1]

I think these creatures could exist. Ive heard storys from credible people. Ive hunted and fished most of my life. I grew up in bear and cougar country and I have seen bears, Ive never seen a cougar. Let alone find any skeletal remains of ethier species. So why would it be impossible for them to exist.

[SgtFang]

Hey Stormy, Ohio gets a lot of activity- what county are you in?

Ohio Sightings

For wprebeck

Kentucky Sightings

and my neck of the woods-

Indiana Sightings

-Sarge

[SaNdMaN]

Hell, I think they could exist. I think UFO's are real too. Never figured out how people can put so much faith in God and not in other things. If someone can kill their baby, smoke meth or drive up and smoke somebody els, then bigfoot can be real.

As for SgtFang, wish I could help you, dude. Unfortunately, never had an experience with 'em. However, we did have this sweet video of one of our more "stout" officers running across the river and he looked identical to that bigfoot video. Add in a dash of "Crocodile Hunteresque" voiceover, a pinch of rapid distribution thoughout the PD and, viola, instant IA

In all seriousness though, good luck on your endeavor. I hope you have fun but that you are never successful. The world needs that little bit of mystery

[retdetsgt]

Originally posted by SgtFang

Actually, it's only been in the last 5-10 years that science has even been willing to look at anything. Hair samples that come back as "Unknown Animal" or "Unknown Primate" have always been swept aside, at least a couple 8'+ skeletons were unearthed in the late 1800's, but the were quickly eyeballed and written off as "big Indians" and shuffled off to museum basements without a second thought.

The problem with fossils is that they only form under certain conditions. Most of the forested land in this country is to wet, and acidic to allow that formation. For what it's worth, there's no fossil record for gorillas and chimps either, for the same reasons.

So the bones are still in museums and available for study? Why don't you ask them to look at them now and check the DNA?

Then why do they find human bones in the forests all the time up here in the NW? Every few years they find human bones in remote regions and there's a big mystery until they are identified. Recall Kennewick Man? He's couple of thousand years old and his bones survived. More people are tramping through the forests now than anytime in history. Common sense would dictate that somebody somewhere would find some real evidence other than some mysterious sightings or grainy film footage.

[badger]

Last I heard, some guy from TN caught a bunch and fed them to Nessie. He supposedly has pictures of that interaction somewhere on the internet. Kill 2 birds with one stone I guess.

Just poking fun. I do not believe in the traditional idea of BF, but I do think that there are species of animals that have not been discovered yet. Good luck in your search SFang.

In fact, it was just reported in a leading scientific journal that women change into a different species once married. Their genes mutate and turn them to nagging wenches (wenchicus naggosapean), not the lovely ladies they once were. This is something that has been known by man since he was an one cell organism, but is just now being proved by science. One day there may be imperical evidence of BF, Nessie, and other strange sightings in the woods, but for now the hunt must go on.

[archer0830]

New species (mostly plants though) are found every year. Just a few months ago some sort of mutant dog was discovered wondering around neighborhoods in I think Kansas. Nobody knows what it is. It doesn't attack anybody, stays away from pets, and just eats grass.

As for bigfoot, I don't really believe it exists but I wouldn't say it's out of the question.

UFO's? Ehhhh probably not. I do believe there are other forms of life out there somewhere but I'm not too sure that they are flying around in spaceships spying on us. Besides, if they had the ability to make such transportation machines, don't you think they would find a way to communicate with us?

[Migraman]

I spend quite a bit of time in some pretty remote areas tracking and have never come across anything bigger than a size 12 lug sole (which I've yet to catch). Found some moose remains once. If I ever see any you will be the first to know. I'm not holding my breath though.

I have however had numerous encounters with aliens...the illegal variety . Nothing from the sky yet.

A word of advice if your investigations bring you close to some of the remote areas of the Canadian border. When you get a sighting of a large hairy animal, if its wearing a red flannel shirt its probably one of the local females.

[SgtFang]

Sorry for not getting back here sooner, my modem got blasted in a storm the other night, and I just got a new one installed.

I do not believe in the traditional idea of BF, but I do think that there are species of animals that have not been discovered yet. Good luck in your search SFang.

That's cool, there are indeed a lot of things still being discovered, and they're not all little things like bugs and rodents. Earlier this summer, the Japanese found a new species of whale, and right now the net's closing on not one, but two new species of great ape.

There's the Bili ape in the congo- http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...trangeape.html

And the Orang-Pendek in Sumatra-

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/e...er/3734946.stm

If I ever see any you will be the first to know. I'm not holding my breath though.

Hehe, much appreciated!

So the bones are still in museums and available for study? Why don't you ask them to look at them now and check the DNA?

I'd love to do that, but I'm not much of an osteo guy, and it would be comparable to a cop from the smallest town in America asking for complete access to the FBI's biggest evidence storage area. Anyway, it seems I was out of date on that info- Kathy Moskowitz, a US Forest Service anthropologist, and curator in the BFRO, said just last week, about the two skeletons I was thinking of-

This is an old, old myth that isn't true! First, those skeletons were stored at the Nevada State Museum at Carson City..and I saw them. They were studied extensively prior to repatriation under NAGPRA by the museums Physical Anthropologist. They were human, Indian (Paiute as I recall), prehistoric, and nothing abnormal about them. As a reference, these are the same skeletons that sometimes get referred to as being redheaded as well (the bones and very little hair were tinged red from the red clay soil they were buried in).

RDS, I can tell your a man who loves a good debate, and normally I do too, especially when I know I'm right.

Like I said in my first post though, I'm not really here to convince anyone, I just want to be able to ask the occasional question about investigation techniques, equipment, and how to collect/ store evidence correctly w/o contaminating it.

Last fall for example, I needed to learn how to collect latent prints in a big hurry when I was looking into a huge metal pan was taken out of someones Texas-sized barbecue and carried, (not dragged) into a cornfield, where the leftovers were munched on. Like I said, there were NO drag marks, and there were several leaves on the cornstalks that were very recently broken at heights of 7'-8', at the points where whatever it was entered the cornfield, till it set the pan down. The pan was approx 47" long, 23" wide, 6" tall, and weighed roughly 35 - 40 lbs, minus the 10 - 15 lbs of pork scraps that were still inside it.

I couldn't get any of the local PDs to come out and take a look w/o filing a criminal mischief charge, so after 3 days, I decided I'd have to dust the thing myself. Luckily one of my old high school buds worked on Mooresville PD, and he persuaded his Capt. to give me a crash course in latent print development w/ hardware store type materials. This short conversation is where my signature comes from. (powdered graphite and packing tape- who'da thunk it was that easy? Not fun on that BLACK pan though!)

The 1.75" long, oval "smudges" I found on one end, were in the right location to be big thumbprints, if it was carried w/ one hand on either end, and the fingers curled under the edges, but after 3 days out in the soggy weather, they weren't too impressive. I sent them off to Det. Chilcutt, just to be safe, and he could find anything good in them either.

Anyway, I never want to be that unprepared if something similar ever falls into my lap like that again.

I think forensic science may be the way to solve this thing once and for all, barring some logging truck driver messing with his radio at the wrong moment, and I think the more people like me know about these methods, the quicker it will happen.

Sooo, With all that out of the way, does anyone have any good manuals on latent print development or DNA collection they want to get rid of?

Thanks!

-Sarge

[SgtFang]

Hey, do we have any Search and Rescue, or tracker guys on here?

-Sarge