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me again
02-04-2001, 01:13 PM
http://www.gifs.net/animate/actmovinsilouettes.gif What's your favorite off-duty carry? Please name only one (1) gun and give your reasons why!
http://gifs123.tripod.com/alert.gif

THE BRONZE
02-04-2001, 07:28 PM
I carry my old departmental issue Beretta 92F. It's an Italian made model, and the finish is more durable than my current 96F. Also, I don't have to worry about how the weapon I'm carrying works; they are both the same.

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Jim

1hunter
02-04-2001, 08:43 PM
Glock 27 .40 cal. The "baby Glock" is compact, lightweight and the .40 is a kick ***** round! Easy to control and conceal.
http://www.officer.com/ubb/smile.gif

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evil only triumphs when good men turn their heads and look away

Hoptoe
02-04-2001, 09:51 PM
Glock 30. 45acp, compact, durable and it's a Glock

Hoppy

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Hoptoe the Bunny Slayer.
Hippity, Hoppity, justice is on its way.

John from Maryland
02-05-2001, 02:02 AM
I carry my duty SIG 226. It's the weapon with which I've practiced the most, both off duty and on record. If I drop some nogoodnik with it off duty and it ends up sitting in the evidence room for months or years, the job will issue me another one.

I'm big enough to conceal the 226 under the clothing I usually wear. If I couldn't conceal the duty weapon, I'd probably opt for the 239 which has the same operating system. The 226 is also a high quality weapon; if the job issued junk, I'd carry another weapon while off-duty, preferably one with the same or a simpler manual of arms as my duty gun.

My decision to carry the 226 is not a matter of economy. I won several other handguns. As a firearms instructor, I could authorize myself to carry almost any weapon I could qualify with. Be safe.

[This message has been edited by John from Maryland (edited 02-05-2001).]

TheAce
02-06-2001, 12:22 AM
I personally carry a Glock 22. I like it because its the perfect size for me, I tend to prefer the .40cal, and I'm a sucker for glocks.

joepicar
02-06-2001, 07:45 AM
Off duty weapon S&W Shorty 40 Mk. 3. Lighter than duty weapon- S&W 4006. Uses same 155 grain ammo as duty weapon and all the control are the same.

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Joe Picariello
Princeton (MA) PD
MLEFI&AA manual editor

DepMur
02-06-2001, 12:44 PM
I'll jump on the Glock 36 bandwagon. Just recently bought min, have already shot 300 round through it with no problems. I also like the Kahr P9 for those time when less is more, am looking forward to the P40 when it comes out...Stay Safe

Metro174
02-06-2001, 01:53 PM
Off duty I try to carry my SW 908. Much smaller and lighter than the duty weapon(SW5906) with same controls. Must carry the same ammo. Winchester SXT.

Enforcer1
02-07-2001, 07:15 AM
I carry a Glock 23 loaded with fourteen rounds of CorBon 165-grain JHP's--they're hot stuff.

I/O Error
02-08-2001, 01:13 AM
http://ubermensch.ws/img/newstar.jpg

Glockarmorer
02-08-2001, 10:30 AM
Favorite carry gun on OR off duty: Glock 23

Reasons:

1. Big enough to carry 13+1 180 gr. Hydrashoks, small enough to conceal.

2. Dept. issued, documented qualification, no big deal if it ends up in the evidence locker after a shooting (a point I've often made, like John from MD)

3. Its a Glock

4. Its a Glock

5. Its a Glock http://www.officer.com/ubb/smile.gif http://www.officer.com/ubb/smile.gif

G.A.



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No cops, know anarchy.

Ozark Jailer
02-08-2001, 06:45 PM
5906 on.....Makarov off!!

Argyle
02-09-2001, 11:26 PM
Sig 239 9mm. I am accurate with it and it is a great gun to shoot - best I have ever owned or shot!!!!

205
11-16-2005, 11:26 PM
Maybe Im just weird but I carry a Walther ppk off-duty. Mainly because I just like walthers for no particular reason, but also because its slim, and fits very well in an inside the pants holster. During the summer I can slip it into the loose pockets of my cargo shorts and its pretty much invisible. I've shot it a fair amount and had no problems. It's pretty accurate and it operates the same as my beretta cougar, flip safety/de-cocker and squeeze.

BlueFlare77
11-17-2005, 12:22 AM
My off duty carry....

M249 SAW

errr...just kidding. I'm not even an LEO.

AKFireCop
11-17-2005, 01:07 AM
Springfield XD .40 compact.

Sooooo Sweet :cool:

ArcLight
11-17-2005, 08:39 AM
Springfield XD .40 sub compact as well. Conceals great, shoots great and has plentiful ammo capacity. Thing I'd like to find for it though is the "perfect" IWB holster! Any suggestions anyone?

halfacop
11-17-2005, 10:07 AM
Kahr PM9

Reasons

1. Its my back up
2. Its not a GLOCK
3. Its easy to conceal
4. Its light and shoots great
5. Its not a GLOCK
6. I am qualified w/ it through the dept which is a plus
7. Did I mention its not a GLOCK! :)

Norm357
11-17-2005, 11:26 AM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v227/Norm357/geminiruger1.jpg

Five-0fromSoCal
11-17-2005, 12:35 PM
I carry my backup for off-duty. SW .357mag., model 640. Internal hammer, can easily conceal. Only drawback is 5 rounds.

Tikidaddy
11-17-2005, 01:52 PM
HK USP Compact .40 S&W. Easy to conceal, nice weight and fun to shoot.

nacorbier
11-17-2005, 02:43 PM
Norm, you love that Ruger, don't you?

Old Dog
11-17-2005, 05:59 PM
Glock 19.

A G23 would do but my dept. issues to me both the 19 and 17. I carry the 19 in an uncle mike's ankle holster daily. For me it's comfortable, with 124 gr. HydraShok std. vel. ammo it has good power.

Even when working patrol duties and carrying my 1911, I carry that G19 for back-up.

I'm happy.

PS
I have carried the new G38/45GAP and a G36/45ACP in that same ankle holster. They are slightly larger, but not enough to give it away.

Caspertoo
11-18-2005, 02:57 AM
I carry a glock 36, nice and thin, thinner than the 26 or 27, carries the .45, and it's a glock.

I probably would have gone with the kahr pm9 but it isn't an approved backup by my dept.

SWATcop
11-18-2005, 06:58 AM
I carry my agency issued .40 caliber Glock model 22 on and off duty. Why? Because I don't have to think about anything. I practice with and qualify with the same gun all the time, so there is no difference in sights, grips, or mechanical workings of the gun. I believe it increases reaction time and proficiency. The only other gun that I carry off duty is my personally owned Glock model 21C (.45 caliber with compensated barrel), but I also use that gun for some on-duty stuff as well (drug raids, etc.). The .45 is only slightly larger that the .40, and it's still a Glock with the same sights, grips, and mechanics. It just puts a bigger hole in you.

I also don't carry anything "small" because I'm a firm believer in stopping power. If I had to carry a .22, .380, or other such small caliber gun, I think I'd just as soon carry a bag of rocks to throw at someone. Just my two cents.

WC145
11-18-2005, 11:38 AM
H&K USP Compact .357sig on & usually off duty. I replaced a Para LDA14-45 and a Glock 36 with the H&K because it is only slightly larger than the Glock and much smaller and lighter than the Para. Although I grew up with .45's I'm very happy with the .357sig. The Maine Warden Service carries .357sig's and everything I have heard from wardens has been very positive and they use their weapons all the time putting down bears, moose, deer and other animals, large and small.
Sometimes I will carry a S&W 642 .38spl off duty if clothing dictates the need for something smaller than the H&K. I also carry a Kel-tec P3AT as a bug.

Mike 842
11-18-2005, 01:45 PM
Sig P245 with Siglite N/S, 2nd. choice is the kahr MK .40 also with N/S and short trigger, both loaded with Ranger SXT, 230 in the .45 and 180 in the .40.

Old Dog
11-18-2005, 05:35 PM
"I probably would have gone with the kahr pm9 but it isn't an approved backup by my dept."
__________________________________________
I have a Khar. It's in 9mm and I believe it's the PM with the stainless slide and polymer frame. It holds 6 rounds with the flush fit magazine and I have several extended mags that hold 7 each.

I have slightly larger hands than most and i'll tell you the slide lock really chews up my thumb. I do shot with the high thumb rest since I carried a 1911 for so many years. It's a subconsious thing.

I don't carry it much. Occasionally I'll drop it in a pocket and carry it as a back-up to my back-up/off duty G19.

But I will say, it's darn well made and absolutely reliable. We use the TQ15 target for qualification. I can easily shoot 230's and 240's with it.

Old Dog

Bigun
11-19-2005, 04:19 AM
Para Ord LDA CCW. Small size great trigger good sights stainless and way more accurate than it needs to be. It did have some teething problems at first but has been perfect for the last 1500 rds.

Kerz
11-24-2005, 06:39 PM
Kahr PM9 for size, weight, caliber, reliability, and striker fired (similar operation to my duty weapon). Carried in a pocket holster http://hedleyholsters.com/misc.html off duty and vest holster on duty. In my opinion the ultimate compact pistol. http://www.kahr.com/pistols_9mm.html

Vic

Invisiblecop
12-01-2005, 08:39 AM
In winter it's either my service firearm a Beretta 92D or Sig P226. Both are excellent firearms and there's no need to worry about ftf!

In the summer I opt for my Kahr PM9 and Kahr MK40. Here again both have been broken in never had an ftf issues PLUS ----- BOTH are easy to conceal, especially when I'm road or mountain biking!

badger
12-03-2005, 08:38 PM
Kimber Pro Eclipse II...I use it more than my duty rig because of competition and am more confident with it. Same ammo and round count as the P220 I carry on duty, better trigger and more compact. I always have a backup... even if it is on someone else's side.

jeeper
12-03-2005, 10:41 PM
I go with a Glock 26 for EDC. I carry it in a Galco Royal Guard holster with custom Blade-Tech belt loops. I carry it with a Pearce +2 on the primary magazine. My reload is a Glock 19 magazine carried in a variety of different magazine pouches.

I'm required to carry a Glock 9 or 45, I chose the 26 as I also carry it for backup use on duty. I really like the idea of interchangeable magazines between the 26 and my 17 on duty.

pawncop
12-10-2005, 07:13 AM
Glock 32 (357 Sig) with Hart's recoil reducer.

NJTrooper
12-13-2005, 04:07 PM
Glock 26 as back-up.. great to conceal but I have been looking at the Sig P239 lately.. I'm a fan of Sig's

j706
12-13-2005, 06:40 PM
kimber tactical pro II- on and off duty. Its accurate,dependable and easy to carry.

Sleuth
12-16-2005, 02:21 PM
Custom made LaFrance NOVA 9mm - smaller than a PPK, full 9mm. Carried it on duty (investigations) and off for years.

Catman
12-17-2005, 12:41 PM
http://webpages.charter.net/tinshield/Glock/glock27a.JPG

bullitt48
12-17-2005, 12:58 PM
those subcompact glocks are calling to me as my next purchase... probably in .40...but for some reason I've also had the urge to buy some sort of rifle...i dont know why i just want one :-D

bought my first gun (sig p220r) for duty use, now I'm hooked. all i need is another expensive hobby, modding cars costs enough!

Kevin_Callahan
12-17-2005, 10:30 PM
http://www.rinku.zaq.ne.jp/hard-metal/PPK-S_2.JPG

This thing is awesome for off-duty carry. Very easily concealable and very light.

Catman
12-17-2005, 11:44 PM
How is the grip and control on that 27, I went with the 23 because it was a little bigger. I was thinking about buying the 27.

It's fine, just get the mag extenders.

SMPPD87
12-21-2005, 10:56 PM
glock 26 w/o the mag extenders:
-it's small and easy to conceal
-my duty gun is 22 so the muscle memory is there
-it's relatively smooth and doesn't have many parts protruding that could snag on it's way out, i usually just tuck it in my waist w/o a holster so this is important
-it's a low maintanence gun that can handle the abuse and neglect that everyday carry guns tend to get

DeputySC
12-21-2005, 11:04 PM
.40 glock 22 right now. It also my issued service firearm. For christmas my parents as a gift got me a 'back up' weapon to sometimes wear on my ankle. Since its so compact and light weight I think it will be more of an off duty then back up. Its a .38 smith & wesson air weight.

pumpkin
12-22-2005, 11:30 PM
Glock 30

1. It's a .45 :D
2. It's a Glock :D
3. S*&% happens :D
4. Duty weapon is Glock 21--hard to conceal, but wanted consistency of operation and functioning

TradArcher
12-23-2005, 02:54 PM
G26 soon to be G27 (because dept switch to .40)

Kerz
12-23-2005, 06:16 PM
How is the grip and control on that 27, I went with the 23 because it was a little bigger. I was thinking about buying the 27.

Very good gun, just too wide. By now, you'd think that Glock would design a specific BUG/CCW weapon. To date, they've just cut down a fill size gun, not unlike several other firearm manufacturers.

rockchucker
12-26-2005, 02:26 AM
i carry either a glock 19 in the winter, and in the summer or warm weather a smith 342 pd titatumin 38 spec.

tacleberry
12-29-2005, 04:17 AM
WELL, you said one gun, but I have to list two, because it depends on what I am wearing.

warm weather or light clothing, I carry a taurus mdl 85 .38 w/ Gold Dot +P hollow points. (carry extra speed loader for total of 10 rounds.) easy to conceal, easy function, pull trigger and it goes bang.

cool weather, heavier clothes, Glock 22 advantage- 15+1 and pull the trigger it goes bang

I carry both of these guns on duty, so training is not an issue...I qualify with both regularly.

stay safe

TradArcher
12-30-2005, 03:10 AM
G26, very accurate with it and it is small.

me_again
12-30-2005, 11:30 AM
I started this thread about 5 years ago --> and it's still going? :eek:

Huey County
12-31-2005, 05:40 AM
I carry a taurus mdl 85 .38 w/ Gold Dot +P hollow points. (carry extra speed loader for total of 10 rounds.)

Tacleberry, I have the same revolver. I learned that the speed loaders are too bulky, so that's why I switched to speed strips (http://www.copsplus.com/prodnum2876.php). Just a thought.

ftlaudcop
12-31-2005, 10:11 AM
I been carrying a eathan allen pepper box, ...... :p

MP Teamleader
12-31-2005, 05:05 PM
NAA .32 ACP or GLOCK 23 depending on how I am dressed, mostly the .32 though.
I subscribe to the school of thought that if I can stand a few feet from you and poke holes in you while making a loud bang noise, your gonna seek cover.
Mostly I'd rather not have to use either one.

Bighead
01-02-2006, 02:29 AM
S&W 340pd.....It's just weighs so darn little!

Centauro
01-07-2006, 07:24 PM
My issue firearm is a Walther PP in 9mmK. Not a lot of firepower, but adequate and very easy to carry off duty. The force is however in the process of rolling out Glock 17's. I'll be sad to see the old Walther go...

blueronin
01-08-2006, 12:03 AM
I was carrying a SigP-229 in .40. I love the size but...the thing is finicky as an old cat. So I went back to carrying my duty weapon off duty as well, a Beretta92-F. I've had three of them, they don't jam, period, and if you load the nine milimeter right, not like that dum!@$$ Fackler suggests, but with something running oh, about 1200 to 1300 fps, it has serious stopping power, yet dosn't over penetrate. A friend of mine works for a dept that has had a lot of problems with their .40's. They may be going back to their Berettas or on to something else. They didn't want to switch in the first place, but you guys know how the brass thinks "We havn't worked the street in years, if at all. But we'll tell the street cops what works and what dosn't."

HolyRoller
01-08-2006, 07:13 PM
"... and if you load the nine milimeter right, not like that dum!@$$ Fackler suggests, ..."

Yeah, why believe a combat trauma surgeon who's been doing this stuff for a living for decades when we have gun magazines and anonymous posts on boards to tell us how to load our 9mms right.

From www.firearmstactical.com/wound.html :

"Several years ago when we first became acquainted with Dr. Martin L. Fackler, M.D., he was a Colonel in the US Army Medical Corps researching wound ballistics at Letterman Army Institute of Research, Presidio of San Francisco, California. Dr. Fackler kindly provided us several articles he

blueronin
01-10-2006, 12:38 AM
Yeah I can see your point. Kinda like the sugeon that had been repairing shoulder injurys for years. Knew all about it. But I had to have it fixed a second time even though I never re injured it. Shooting gelatin molds dosn't impress me. I like the simple common sense approach. Nobody questions the stopping power of oh say a 357 magnum. Why does the 357 work so well? Medium weight+high welocity=stopping power. When you load a nine milimeter up with heavy slow bullets. You turn it into a 15 shot .38. Why do you think so many people like the 357 Sig so much? I'm not saying that the nine milimeter matches the 357sig or magnum in stopping power but it's roughly the same size bullet so why would you slow it down? I like actual street results. What about the Strausburg tests? I'll load my nines up with plusP's anytime. If you carry a nine you can load yours with whatever you want. Good luck.

FNA209
01-10-2006, 02:41 AM
G27 when off-duty or on-duty plain clothes (most times). If it's something special, I'll use my duty weapon- a G23. Just ordered a G23 of my very own, so I'll probably carry that more often once I get it.

As an aside, I had to chuckle about the mag extender for the G27. After attending two courses taught by Glock folks, they consider any kind of extender a cardinal sin. (I have them on my G27 mags though- the instructor verbally lumped me up everytime he noticed them).

During the last course I attended, it was explained that the Glock was designed to hold in a two finger grip (middle and ring). Think of a "proper Englishman drinking tea" (do they really do that?) and extending the pinky finger. I tried it out and there seems to be some truth to it. But, when you do it, it just looks .......editted for political correctness.

Doc_STA
01-10-2006, 06:09 AM
I like the discrete power of my H&K USP compact quite a lot, but when even that is not quite low profile enough, I'm preferential for an ankle-rigged Sig P232 (in .380 ACP)

HolyRoller
01-10-2006, 04:19 PM
Shooting gelatin molds dosn't impress me. I like the simple common sense approach. Nobody questions the stopping power of oh say a 357 magnum. Why does the 357 work so well? Medium weight+high welocity=stopping power.

On I-95 in South Carolina just north of the Georgia border you will see a sign that designates "Trooper First Class Mark H. Coates Memorial Highway." He died because the SC Highway Patrol followed your advice. In the academy, we saw the dash-cam tape of him shooting a big fat perp five times with .357. This didn't stop the perp from shooting back with a .22 mini-revolver. One of the two shots he got off missed the trooper's vest and nicked his aorta and he bled out right there.

MY idea of common sense, and medical science, says that a bullet actually has to cut a body part to do it any damage. If your high-speed .357 bullet expands so fast that it stops before getting to a vital organ, well, maybe the bad guy will decide to quiet down and maybe he will decide to keep fighting.

News flash: The two very well known books on stopping power by two very well known gun magazine writers are mostly fiction. Nobody can collect THAT MANY reliable and comparable shooting reports as they claimed to have, and then put an exact percentage on "one-shot stops" anywhere in the "torso" or "center mass" whatever that means. As I recall, they list the .357 as having the same or HIGHER one-shot stop probability as a full charge of 12-gauge buckshot! Is THAT common sense?


When you load a nine milimeter up with heavy slow bullets. You turn it into a 15 shot .38. Why do you think so many people like the 357 Sig so much? I'm not saying that the nine milimeter matches the 357sig or magnum in stopping power but it's roughly the same size bullet so why would you slow it down?

WHO likes the .357 SIG so much? I just betcha there are a whole lot more cops carrying .40 than .357 SIG. I do believe the US Secret Service carries .357 SIG but then they have a different mission than most departments.

WHY you would slow it down is if it penetrates further that way. Another news flash: Kinetic energy means absolutely nothing when shooting humans. How much kinetic energy does a knife need to cut an artery? Looking at foot-pound numbers in an ammo catalog does not translate to more or less tissue damage. Funny how the "maximum energy dump" salesmen are also high-velocity bullet salesmen.


I like actual street results. What about the Strausburg tests?

:eek: I did not just read that.

Because if I DID just read that, I have ANOTHER news flash:

The Strasbourg goat-shoot test was a HOAX. It was MADE UP. It NEVER HAPPENED. Even the gun magazines haven't (or shouldn't have) mentioned this baloney in a looong time.

So you aren't impressed with ballistic gelatin tests? Are GOATS the same size and as easy/hard to stop as PEOPLE? Is goat-shooting "actual street results"? As far as I can tell from a whole lot of learning about guns and military history, the only thing that counts is hitting and cutting a vital organ with whatever bullet you have. Deeper penetration and larger diameter makes this more likely--but even a center-mass .45 might cause a bad guy to do no more than drop his knife voluntarily and keep rasslin' with you for another 15 minutes. Saw that video too.


I'll load my nines up with plusP's anytime. If you carry a nine you can load yours with whatever you want. Good luck.

Thanks, I'll need the good luck. I can't load my 9mm with whatever I want, only with what the firearms instructor interprets the NC sheriff's standards to allow. I thought "duty-type ammunition" meant you can qualify with one load and carry another, but The Man said it means you only qualify with the exact load you qualified with. If you have an OIS with a different load, you world just turned to crap no matter how righteous the shoot was. Too bad he didn't say this until after we qualified.

So I'm going to be carrying Sellier & Bellot 115FMJ off-duty until we requalify in three months. :o :( You and I would agree that this isn't the best. But accuracy-wise I scored 98% at night and 99.6% in the day, no malfunctions at all, and I may need more penetration when bad guys are bundled up for winter, so I can git-r-done with ball if I have to.

Don't worry about on-duty. I'll have my 1911 and issue SXT (Black Talon) for that. Like Mas Ayoob says, there's something about strapping on a 1911 that makes you go "ahhhhhh ... yessss."

Cold Zero
01-10-2006, 04:50 PM
Our duty round is a 9mm non expanding hollow point. It has an 80 grain bullet with over 8 grains of powder. It

blueronin
01-10-2006, 11:21 PM
Holy roller here's a news flash cops quit carrying the .357 magnum because of the round count (capacity). Not because of inadaquate stopping power. And I saw the same videos you did. No round is perfect. And as I recall the bad guy shot first!! :eek: If you're already hit in the aorta, I don't care what you shoot him back with, you're still going to die. Energy dump is what makes the .45 what it is. That's why you're beloved 1911 works so well. The .45 is a big slow heavy bullet, and that works in that instance. But I'll put a .357 magnum up against anything else out there for stopping people. Oh and about the goats, I'm sorry to tell you this but who said the tests were fake? I've never heard it proven that it was a hoax. And alpine goats generally weigh in the 250lbs range, and while they are not people I think you get a better idea of how a bullet works that way than shooting jello molds. I understand your point of view, and to a point I agree. Hitting a major organ, or artery is very important. But the nine milimeter stands a better chance if it expands. Clint Smith of Les Bear shares in your opinion. But Mas Ayoob, Dave Spaulding, and Ed Sanow seem to be more along mine. Between the three of them, I think that's somewhere about 90 years of actual lawenforcement experience on the actual street. Not some scientist in a lab in a total controlled environment. There is no magic bullet Holyroller. My dept carries the same load your does. That's why I'm looking a .45's now. Shot placement is the more important than bullet type. But after that, I want something that expands.

blueronin
01-10-2006, 11:39 PM
Oh and by the way Holyroller. If I'm not mistaken the Texas Department of public safety, and the Virginia State Police both carry the 357 sig. Yes there are more depts carrying the .40 than the 357 sig, but that's because the 40 has been around almost ten years longer. I bet ten years ago there were more cops using nine milimeters than 40's. Oh, and about penetration. Didn't that get NY PD in some trouble a few years back, when a bullet passed through a suspect and hit a little girl?

WC145
01-11-2006, 09:58 AM
I can carry anything I want and I have a H&K USP Compact in .357sig for on/off duty. Up here in Maine the Warden's Service and the Aroostook County S.O. are both issued .357sig's with 125gr gold dot ammo. The wardens that I have spoken to love it. They used to carry .357mag revolvers and there were concerns about stopping power when they changed over but the .357sig has proven to be at least as effective as the magnum. This is from guys that shoot big things all the time - moose, bears, etc. I'm very happy with mine although the only things I've shot with mine so far is paper and a few porcupines - but they've all been one-shot stops! ;-)

Cold Zero
01-11-2006, 10:33 AM
Anybody have any experience with the .45GAP from Glock?

Mitchell_in_CT
01-11-2006, 10:58 AM
Even if the goat tests were real, what do they prove?

A goat is a 100 lbs goat is significantly different than a 200 lbs human who wants to kill you, so the incapacitation times are not to be counted on.

The only thing they can tell you is how a given bullet performed in a medium of differing density, i.e. the goat's skin, musscle, bone and airspaces like the lung/organs.

It is A factor, not the determining factor.

I just stick to midweight bonded stuff which has robust performance, but that's just me.

Sleuth
01-11-2006, 02:15 PM
Blueronin, since you missed it, I'll fill you in on the "goat tests". Researchers with credentials other than "I'm a cop" contacted the Euro "goat market", and were unable to find any large sales to other than the regular buyers. So, IF the test took place, where did the goats come from? No one knows. Zero goats = a false ""test"".
And you hardly bolster your case by quoting one of the authors of the "goat test data" as a primary source. Or Massad Ayoob, who personally told me he will write what will sell.
Try again.
And carry anything you like. I just like people to make informed choices.

blueronin
01-12-2006, 07:38 AM
That wasn't the only basis for my decision. I look at it this way: Most people wont argue that a .357 magnum has very good stopping power, right? Now a nine milimeter bullet is only what? .001 difference from the 38 and the 357. Now if the 38 and the 357 mag are the same bullet but one of them is a better performer (the 357) why is that? Answer velocity. So why would someone shooting a nine milimeter, which is the same weight, and size as a 38 or a 357 magnum want to slow it down in the name of stopping power? Isn't stopping power why the 357 sig (other than marketing) was invented? It shoots a nine milimeter bullet. Now I know you can't load a nine up to match a 357sig or magnum. But dosn't it make sense to try and come as close as you can? Mas said that? :eek: Wow. I realize that I'm not going to agree with everyone about everything. I try to keep an open mind, and listen to what you guys are trying to say. I'm sure there's quite a few good officers here, and a lot of good information. But it really disappoints me to here that a cop that has his word get out to so many other officers old and young, would do that. I have heard that before, somewhere.... :( . I may be wrong about this, but I just don't see how.

Sleuth
01-12-2006, 02:27 PM
There is a problem with your logic: When people talk about the .357 Magnum, they usually are referring to the 125 g JHP. In .38, they usually refer to the 158g RNL "Stop, or I"ll wrinkle your suit" load. Plus, modern manufacturers use different bullets for their .38 vs. .357 loads, to compensate for the lower velocity. The Treasury Dept used to issue a 110g .38 load that cronos at 1,000 FPS from a 2" Chief's Special! In the limited number of shootings with this load, it stopped them almost every time with one hit!

There are other problems with the Marshall/Sanow work, and if you were around at the time, you would have seen that statistcians demonstrated that is was not valid. In fact, M/S quote a friend of mine about some shootings. The problem? He never spoke to them, and never heard of the shootings attributed to him.

There has been a lot of scientific research since the sacrifice of those FBI agents in Miami. The use of a repeatable test medium is just one thing.

(And many folks don't know that Mas writes under a variety of names. He told me he will write one article praising a gun, and under a different name write another knocking it - and get paid for both! The man has to put food on the table.)

I say again: Shot Placement!

Mitchell_in_CT
01-12-2006, 03:36 PM
The Treasury Dept used to issue a 110g .38 load that cronos at 1,000 FPS from a 2" Chief's Special! In the limited number of shootings with this load, it stopped them almost every time with one hit!



I literaly shudder to think what that would do to my nice, old Colt Agent lightweight.

I saw a box of winchester bullets marked Treasury Loads and the warning stated that it was 20% over +P pressure if I rember correctly.

blueronin
01-12-2006, 08:47 PM
Sleuth. I agree with everything you just said. And everyone says there's something wrong with my logic :rolleyes: What you said about Ayoob really bothers me. I realize the man has to eat but, jeez I don't care how much jack sombody waves in front of me, I can't concieve writing in a magazine and praising bad guns and equipment for other officers, that may trust their lives to. :mad: That's just so wrong! Not to mention what it does to your own personal reputation. But I still don't understand why he would knock the 147grain nine milimeter round without a good reason. What would he gain by doing that. He dosn't knock one single brand. He knocks all 147 grain subsonics. Like you said "stop, or I'll wrinkle your suit." That's funny. That's the way I look at the 147 gr subsonic round. Unfortunately, that's what my dept issues in nine. :(

Sleuth
01-13-2006, 01:11 PM
1. I still own my S&W M60 2" circa 1970 (hey, it's what investigators carried in those days), with several thousand Treasury loads (listed as the Q4070 by Winchester) through it. It's still perking along just fine. Heck, I still have some of the rounds in the original white boxes.

2. I'm not sure where the hard nock on the 147 9mm started. I know that Sanow once published an article in Law & Order called "The rise and fall of the 147 g 9mm". In the very next issue, L&O published their only retraction and apology, as many readers wrote in stating that the facts Sanow used were wrong, and that he knew they were wrong. One writer was the Sgt. who had briefed Sanow on a shooting. He wrote that Sanow had falsified what this Sgt. had told him, and the rounds worked well, and the agency was pleased with them.

Two notes: Sanow was a distributor for some 'extra high velocity' ammo at the time, so that may have motivated him. And the ironic fact that the current editor of L&O?
Ed Sanow!

I have spoken to the ballisticians for agencies that carry or carried the 147g 9mm, they had had good to excellent results with it.

As for Ayoob, his exact words, as near as I can remember them:
"In used to write for the Karate magazines. Then I found the gun mags. It's great! I write an article about a gun under one name, and praise it, and get paid! Then I write another article under another name in another magazine calling it trash, and get paid for that too! And, I get to keep the gun!!"
I checked with the editor of a gun magazine I wrote for, and he admitted that Mas wrote under several names for that publication.

Carry what you like, focus on SHOT PLACEMENT!

me_again
01-13-2006, 01:20 PM
When we retire, we are allowed to purchase our duty sidearm at a discounted price. A cohort was retiring, but he wasn't going to buy his duty pistol, so I offered to give him the money to purchase the gun from our department and then he could give it to me. ;) That is the gun that I carry in an off-duty fanny pack (Sig P220). It's nice because it's reliable and since we train with that model, I am very comfortable with it. We are allowed to carry our issued pistols off-duty, but I wanted this gun because it was originally department issued.

HolyRoller
01-13-2006, 04:40 PM
Here's a grab-bag of replies:

As I recall from the Trooper Coates tape, they were shooting at least simultaneously. Yes of course, what really killed him was letting the guy get his hand in his pocket and onto the gun. And if the trooper had head-shotted the BG with ANY round, that would have disrupted his aim. But with the shot placement he had, a different projectile couldn't have hardly made it any worse, and may have turned the tables just enough to let the good guy live.

I don't think higher capacity was the sole reason for moving from revolvers to autos. I pick a snub J-frame or Taurus 85 for pocket carry any day over a baby Glock. The ease of carrying in a pocket and gripping the snub revolver is reason enough to live with 5 rounds instead of 11. If I could hide and grip a baby Glock in a pocket, I'd be glad to go with it.

As for round counts in general, I'm about equally happy with an 8-shot .45 1911 or a 16-shot 9mm Brigadier. Either or both can get you through the night.

I didn't know before about Mas Ayoob's multiple personality disorder. All I know is, the material he writes under his real name has done a lot more good than harm in my opinion. I have Stressfire and Stressfire II and use those techniques for pistol and shotgun. I qualified highest in the academy with pistol and shotgun, and highest in pistol last week with three other new guys. Also, Mas has been the only person I've read who suggests carrying a DA auto with the safety on. I thought about this, and trained myself to wipe the Beretta safety off when the drawstroke first touches it.

It's terrible to accuse an officer of writing and publishing known untruths that sell the writer's product, but there are all kinds of people in the world and some of them are greedy or egotistical enough to do that. One of the "stopping power" world's big names mentioned on this thread, who is also supposed to be a perfesser at some community college, has a well-known website and forum that he moderates, and his posts stand out for their grammatical, spelling, and capitalization errors. He must have a good proofreader when writing for the gun rags.

The neat thing about science is that anybody should be able to duplicate results of experiments. If the Strasbourg tests really happened, then somebody should be able to round up the same number of alpine goats and shoot them quietly somewhere. Nobody's done it so maybe the alleged results (and I don't even know what they are) are not valid. That's one good reason to use ballistic gelatin--it is the very best effort by a lot of pretty smart people to come up with a test medium that is as close to real guts as possible, while being repeatable, so that you can have a meaningful comparison of loads.

ColdZero, I don't have experience with the .45 GAP, but I do love my Walther P5. It shoots and carries great. But I like the 1911 and Brigadier even better and you can only qualify with so many weapons. Also the P5 does not have a thumb safety, which I like to have even though I know most people get along fine without them. I'll save my P5 for, I dunno, a special lady I guess.

blueronin
01-14-2006, 04:06 AM
I always wondered how he got to have so many guns in the house. I also wonder how a guy like that sleeps at night? Probably better than I do. Please tell me that you never heard anything bad about Spaulding. You see Ayoob at all of these police functions, and organizational meetings. How can these other cops stand to get their picture taken with this guy? I wouldn't do it. Guilt by assosiation. So how do you know what's a good load, and what's not? Do you know of any other sources than Dr. Fackler's FBI tests? I agree, shot placement is 99% of the whole thing, but I'll take any advantage I can get. Because let me tell you; Murphy and I are not friends. :rolleyes:

Sleuth
01-14-2006, 01:21 PM
Blueronin, as I have posted earlier, any JHP load from any of the big makers (Winchester, Remington, Federal) that was developed in the last 15 years will serve. Make sure it runs 100% in your chosen gun(s), then set the issue aside and focus on the sofware side of the situation:
TRAINING and Practice.
For, as they say, a .22 between the eyes is more effective than a 50BMG depleated uranium JHP explosive tracer miss.

P.S. Anyone else hear that PMC is going out of biz?

DerekFiveO
01-14-2006, 01:36 PM
So whats the story with carrying off duty anyways, Do you have to have your badge visible as well? Does it matter if its on a holster does it have to be concealed?

Sleuth
01-15-2006, 02:38 PM
I was a Federal Investigator, so no good could come from my carrying openly at any time other than a raid. I always carried both my badge & creds, but I was never questioned, because no one ever knew. I did not carry my badge so it could be seen - concealed MEANS concealed. Why give up any advantage.
Besides, what if some off or on duty officer sees you with a gun, but does not know you? Nothing good coming out of that, either.

Cold Zero
01-15-2006, 03:33 PM
ColdZero, I don't have experience with the .45 GAP, but I do love my Walther P5. It shoots and carries great. But I like the 1911 and Brigadier even better and you can only qualify with so many weapons. Also the P5 does not have a thumb safety, which I like to have even though I know most people get along fine without them. I'll save my P5 for, I dunno, a special lady I guess.

*Get back up from the floor and, shakingly, get

Bigugly
01-16-2006, 11:59 AM
My off-duty is a S&W 642 Airweight .38 Spl. It is loaded with 125 grain +P Gold Dots. I know there are better guns available, but I am able to carry this all the time off-duty with minimum effort to conceal it.

Sleuth
01-16-2006, 01:05 PM
BigUgly, there are few better guns than your Smith, if for no other reasons than A) it's in a decent caliber, and B) YOU HAVE IT WITH YOU!

Even the vaunted Jeff Cooper, advocate of the .45, is known to carry "his wife's gun" a S&W 2" (I don't recall which model), when he 'just runs down to the store". So, you are in good company.

HolyRoller
01-16-2006, 05:30 PM
I don't like Walthers very much; I only have three. :D

My P5 has a bit of backstory:

I always thought Walthers were cool ever since my dad brought home an Interarms catalog when I was about 10. The first pistol I owned was a surplus P38, aluminum frame dated 4/61, that served me well until I lent it to a friend who had just gotten out of the Army and was visiting Atlanta and said he could use something for self-protection. He had been an airborne infantryman and if you can't trust those guys, who can you trust?

Apparently no one. I've seen him only once, shortly thereafter, "oh I forgot your gun today I'll bring it next time," and haven't seen my poor P38 ever again.

I happened across a PP Super in 9x18mm Police and even found a box of ammo for it, but it wasn't big enough for a main gun and too big for a backup, so it got sold.

I bought a brand-new American-made TPH stainless and still have it. Just break it in with a few hundred rounds, and clean it every few hundred more, and it works fine.

Then in early 2000, one of my clients in the Miami federal detention center referred me to a fellow inmate who at one time had a net worth of US$80 million, but too bad he had built it by fraud, and it caught up with him. He had no cash left but did have several guns at his private investigator's house. Since it was legal to do so, I said I'll be glad to take those in trade. Among other things were a Smith stainless centennial .357 snub, but I already had a 442 Airweight. Another was a Colt Officer's Model that had been heavily worked on.

They were all right, but I happened to have them in the car when I went to a gun show and saw a new-looking P5 for sale. I had never actually seen one before, and I sold both the Centennial and the Officer's Model to buy the P5. At the time, I kicked myself, especially when the P5 jammed about once per magazine for the first hundred rounds, but since I've learned about the poor reliability of the mini-1911 no matter what you do with it, I do believe I got the better of the deal.

For bullseye competition I bought a GSP from one of the guys at the Pilkguns board and it's great. I might carve a 1911-type grip for it.

But then Walther found out I liked all these designs, and quit making them. Well, they did improve the GSP into the "Expert" model, but they're hard to find, and maybe Walther did not know that Expert is only the third highest bullseye classification? Later Walthers kind of leave me cold. When I get rich again, I'll start collecting the old ones.

And now that the Germans are selling off their P5s, you can get used ones for pretty good prices around here.

miked6
01-17-2006, 01:22 AM
I carry a Sig P230 .380 That sucker is so small and light, that I forget I am carrying it sometimes! It is a small round but when your shot placement is as good as mine, that isn't a concern ::sarcasm:: A definite must have. It feels great in your hand, and it makes me feel like James Bond :cool:

Depdog02
01-17-2006, 03:25 PM
Last 61/2 years, G30 in a Dilong belt rig, backed up by 2 G21 mags in a Bianchi
for 98% of off duty carry. Occasional summer or special occasions with a G26 back up with a G19 mag. Winter special occasions with a G21 1st Gen. Duty is an issued G22. Before was either a Colt Combat Commander or Officers model inside the pants.

DerekFiveO
01-17-2006, 04:56 PM
I don't like Walthers very much; I only have three. :D

My P5 has a bit of backstory:

I always thought Walthers were cool ever since my dad brought home an Interarms catalog when I was about 10. The first pistol I owned was a surplus P38, aluminum frame dated 4/61, that served me well until I lent it to a friend who had just gotten out of the Army and was visiting Atlanta and said he could use something for self-protection. He had been an airborne infantryman and if you can't trust those guys, who can you trust?

Apparently no one. I've seen him only once, shortly thereafter, "oh I forgot your gun today I'll bring it next time," and haven't seen my poor P38 ever again.

I happened across a PP Super in 9x18mm Police and even found a box of ammo for it, but it wasn't big enough for a main gun and too big for a backup, so it got sold.

I bought a brand-new American-made TPH stainless and still have it. Just break it in with a few hundred rounds, and clean it every few hundred more, and it works fine.

Then in early 2000, one of my clients in the Miami federal detention center referred me to a fellow inmate who at one time had a net worth of US$80 million, but too bad he had built it by fraud, and it caught up with him. He had no cash left but did have several guns at his private investigator's house. Since it was legal to do so, I said I'll be glad to take those in trade. Among other things were a Smith stainless centennial .357 snub, but I already had a 442 Airweight. Another was a Colt Officer's Model that had been heavily worked on.

They were all right, but I happened to have them in the car when I went to a gun show and saw a new-looking P5 for sale. I had never actually seen one before, and I sold both the Centennial and the Officer's Model to buy the P5. At the time, I kicked myself, especially when the P5 jammed about once per magazine for the first hundred rounds, but since I've learned about the poor reliability of the mini-1911 no matter what you do with it, I do believe I got the better of the deal.

For bullseye competition I bought a GSP from one of the guys at the Pilkguns board and it's great. I might carve a 1911-type grip for it.

But then Walther found out I liked all these designs, and quit making them. Well, they did improve the GSP into the "Expert" model, but they're hard to find, and maybe Walther did not know that Expert is only the third highest bullseye classification? Later Walthers kind of leave me cold. When I get rich again, I'll start collecting the old ones.

And now that the Germans are selling off their P5s, you can get used ones for pretty good prices around here.


Since you seem to be a big Walther buff. What is the deal with the PPK and the PPK/S whats the difference. And from what I understand they are all made in the USA, A lot of people say the German ones are a lot better but where can you get a german one? I have a German Walther P99 but all the info ive seen shows the PPK is built in america.

Sleuth
01-19-2006, 12:28 PM
The PPK/S was bult as an import law 'beater'. It's a PPK on the larger PP frame, so it would score enough points to be imported. Now, all PPK's are made in the US, I guess some folks like the larger grip on the PPK/S.
For a time, the German guns were considered "better". Now, if you want a new one, it will be US made, which I don't think makes any difference unless you are a collector.
I used to carry one, until I learned more about ballistics. But that is for another thread.

HolyRoller
01-19-2006, 01:01 PM
Sleuth is right about the PPK v. PPK/S dealie. I always kind of wanted one but never could quite fit it into the priorities. If they made one with an ambidextrous safety, that would let me carry it on my off-side with the safety on. I've trained myself to carry my Beretta 92 on safe and wipe off the safety as part of the drawstroke. Without a thumb safety issue, I'll take a snub revolver for a BUG over a PPK.

Lately they've improved, or at least changed, some design features of the PPK, such as a longer grip tang so the slide and hammer won't hurt. (You can tell when I've been shooting my TPH because there's always at least a mark, and sometimes a scab, where the slide cycles over the thumb/forefinger web--that's why they call it "Walther Bite.") But on a Walther forum I've visited lately, a LOT of people are bustin' on the recently made PPKs for bad quality control and excessive malfunctions. It could be they just need breaking in, as my P5 and TPH did. My Taurus 985 works every time without question so that's another reason for sticking with it.

You can for sure find old German-made PPKs and variants for sale, and the guns that are really from Ulm on the Donau are supposed to be built like tanks and very reliable. I personally don't know and am not independently wealthy enough to buy any test guns.

americanoutdrsm
01-28-2006, 06:05 PM
mk-19, 40mm automatic grenade launcher, for snakes and such.

No really I like my styer M-40 it was cheap, I have put about 1000 rounds through it without a problem, it is easy to take apart and put back together, easy to clean and maintain. It looks a little strange at first but it is the most accurate pistol I have ever shot.