Are You Outgunned?

[Libertarian]

Many news reporters and gun ownership critics like to use the argument that the police are outgunned by machine-gun toting criminals in society. I recall a case a few years back where the police were stymied by a couple of characters that were dressed in full body armor walking around with with almost impunity of what the police were trying to do to them. I have a few questions for the LEO's out there.

1. Do you feel you are outgunned by the criminals?

2. If you are, are you outgunned because of department rules on what you can carry?

3. TV often shows the Miami Vice automatic weapon shootout as a typical event. How often does something like this really happen?

4. What weapons are the ones you usually run across?

[Niteshift]

1) Nope. I'm VERY well armed. With what I carry on duty, I can deal targets from contact range to over 500 meters.

2) N/A. My dept lets me carry a lot of fun stuff too.

3) Very rare. When it happens, you'll probably see it on CNN.

4) We just had a thread on this not too long ago. We run across all sorts of things, although the general tendency is junky, cheap guns. There are always exceptions, especially if the guy stole a nice gun somewhere.

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Niteshift-
Perseverate In Pugna

[bum]

well im not a police officer or anything, but automatic guns are very over rated, most people who use them, to kill, just open fire everywhere, spreading the bullets far apart, with a very unlikely chance of hitting very many, 3 skilled riflesman could easily outgun 3 people with automatics, thats what i heard anyway

[John from Maryland]

Generally speaking, we are not outgunned by the bad guys. Granted, the department should issue us rifles rather than 9mm AR15's, but we can handle the vast majority of threats.

Shootouts with bad guys armed with fully automatic weapons are infrequent occurrences. As mentioned above,fully automatic weapons are overrated, especially in the hands of the untrained.

I cannot reference this story, but I have heard of a South Florida patrol officer some years ago who effected a traffic stop and was confronted by a suspect armed with a SMG. The cop dove for cover as the nogoodnik sprayed off an entire magazine. When the suspect paused to reload, the cop came up and settled his hash with one round from a .38 revolver.

Most suspect guns are junk, including the fully automatic ones.

[Niteshift]

"3 skilled riflesman could easily outgun 3 people with automatics"

That reminds me of two things:

1) I don't worry as much about the bullet with my name on it as I do the one marked "To whom it may concern".

2) There is a story about a German general and a Swiss general, discussing how, despite their neitrality, Switzerland was prepared to defend itself. The Swiss general pointed out how well trained his troops were. The German general said well-trained was fine, but the German army was bigger and stronger. He asked how the Swiss would defend against an army that outnumbered them 3 to 1. The Swiss general replied that all of his men would have to fire 3 times. http://www.officer.com/ubb/smile.gif

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Niteshift-
Perseverate In Pugna

[bum]

and who won niteshift... the swiss or the german?

[BIG ROB]

We all have the potential to be out gunned. With terrorism being a possibility anywhere in the world. Going against a terrorist with a full auto weapon isn't the same as a gangbanger. Because the likelihood of such event not ever happening to me doesn't mean I am any less prepared as I should be. Also think about all those anti government organizations out there. I think every officer should have and be proficient with a rifle, shotgun and pistol. I have an AR-15, Mossburg 590 20" barrel, Glock 21 and 30. Depending on the circumstances I might be outgunned, in most circumstances I am prepared for the worst.

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Rob Edwards
Humphreys Co TN Sheriffs Dept
DUI/Traffic Enforcement

[Niteshift]

"and who won niteshift... the swiss or the german?"

I'd have to say the Swiss. The Germans never attacked them.


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Niteshift-
Perseverate In Pugna

[ferret]

i would have to agree with nightshift first off, it the many bullets out there with occupent written on them.

and secondly nightshift what gun do you carry on your person on the job that can effectively shoot to 500 yards?

[Niteshift]

.308. It's not on my person, but I didn't think that was part of the question. I doubt anyone is carrying shotguns or AR's on them either.

It could go further than the 500 if it had to, but that's further than I can see using. I've hit torso targets at 700 with it on the one time I tried. I have seen them employed at nearly 1,000 meters.

95% of my practice? 200 meters or less.

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Niteshift-
Perseverate In Pugna

[This message has been edited by Niteshift (edited 01-08-2001).]

[John from Maryland]

Big Rob, you raise excellent points. Having adequate firepower is always part of tactics.

I suspect,however,that suggestions that the cops are outgunned come from gun control advocates. I believe they are less concernd about arming the police than disarming citizens.

Best line on this topic from a movie: OFF LIMITS. Two CID agents with a prisoner are surrounded by hostile RVN police. Their sergeant arrives and is told by the local commander that this time they are outgunned. The sergeant calls for a helicopter gunship to hover over the crowd with weapons trained on the local commander. "When are you people going to learn? WE are never outgunned!"

It wasn't the greatest movie ever filmed, but the boss was dead on. Use appropriate tactics, call for support, have a plan, ensure that you're not outgunned.

Be safe. (Carry extra ammo.)

[Glockarmorer]

Actually John, I thought that "Off Limits" was an excellent movie. I mean, Willem Dafoe and Gregory Hines? Vietnam era CID/MP's investigating a (possible) officer killing VC bar hooks? It was pretty good. And I particularly like the part with the gunship. Old Fred Ward is a pretty good actor too.

I definitely give that movie 2 thumbs up. http://www.officer.com/ubb/smile.gif
As a matter of fact, I haven't seen that movie in some time. Wonder if its out on DVD yet??

Off Limits (http://www.videoflicks.com/VF2/1015/1015400.ihtml)

G.A.

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No cops, know anarchy.

[This message has been edited by Glockarmorer (edited 01-08-2001).]

[John from Maryland]

"Off Limits" may not have been the greatest movie ever filmed, but I agree, it was very entertaining, had some technical authenticity, and had some excellent actors. There have been better movies, to include cop movies, but everything doesn't have to be "L.A. Confidential" to be worth viewing. "Off Limits" is certainly a keeper (at least to people like us). I might purchase a copy if only to use the "We are never outgunned" part at in-service.

I certainly realized I was a movie buff a few weeks ago when a county cruiser passed me in traffic. The county troop and I waved, but traffic precluded talking. Shortly thereafter, I heard the county officer on the talk-around channel: "Sarge! 'Proof of Life'?" Crowe and Ryan, you can't go wrong. Good technical advisors. Somewhat convoluted storyline. Of course, I switched over to talk-around and replied "Seen it. Good movie."

Everyone thinks I'll go into training when I retire. I'll actually shoot for a movie critic spot. I'm sure I could lure Jennifer Lopez away from the Alpha Hotel she's dating.

[Niteshift]

I liked Off Limits too......it's been on HBO a lot lately. I liked the gunship scene, but I also liked Willem Dafoe's line that he used a couple of time "Stand tall you little f##k." http://www.officer.com/ubb/smile.gif

BTW John, don't think you're the only guy with a Jennifer Lopez operation in the works http://www.officer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

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Niteshift-
Perseverate In Pugna

[Bob A]

There have been a few incidents in recent memory where police have been "outgunned" by the hoodlums. The North Hollywood bank robbery/shootout being the most notable.

Ever hear the expression "Just smart enough to be dangerous"? These guys were smart enough to arm themselves with high powered automatic rifles, lots of ammo, and body armor.

But they were stupid enough to start shooting and did not realize how determined the LAPD would be in stopping their escape. They might have been allowed more latitude (at first) because of the potential risk. Once they started shooting, the best course was to keep them contained, draw their fire, and make them expend ammunition until SWAT showed up.

Yes, there's a point: At first glance, the hoods seem to have the advantage. When taking a close look, however, the LAPD has superior resources, and the most important element: A body of dedicated, determined, and brave officers, who stood tall and kept a horrible stuation from becoming a complete disaster. IMO, no amount of fire power can compensate for this.

Men and women like this deserve our respect and support. They also make me proud to wear my badge.

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In God we trust. All others we run through NCIC.

[Sparky]

Thankfully, the scrotes only use their big firepower against cops only rarely.

But are we outgunned? Youbetcha!!

What used to un-nerve me was when I would be out on a call or something and spot a piece of brass on the ground. I would pick it up and recognize it as a 7.62x39mm round. Peek down inside and see the telltale Berdan style primer holes...and I knew that what I was holding was a Soviet or Chicom AK47 round. The kind that has a steel penetrator core in the bullet.

At close to medium ranges, it will go through your steel door on your squad car,
through your steel plate on your body armor (if so equipped),
through your front kevlar body armor panel,
through you,
out your back kevlar body armor panel,
out the passenger side door,
....and keep right on truckin'!!!

In the PJ's, we were in the habit of scanning the windows and rooftops for snipers. You never sat in a parked car, and you dove out of the way of opening windows and doors. It was not uncommon for the area citizenry to take pot-shots at you from rooftops or at a distance.

Luckily, they were usually lousy shots and rarely got close to hitting you. They were rarely even close enough for you to get a clothing description. They'd pop up and fire off a few rounds and scammper away to watch to see what you would do. Unless somebody or something was hit, we often did not even call it in. Neither did we bug out. That's what they wanted was to see you over-react or run scared.

Anyway...enough war stories.

Yes, we are outgunned. And yes, sometimes really bad actors wear body armor.

Officers should be equiped to deal with these threats by both improved body armor and weapons that can defeat body armor at range.

I also personally advocate the issuance of smoke cannisters. The crooks can't shoot what they can't see.

I also differ with the opinion that LAPD should have set up a perimeter to wait for SWAT. This didn't seem to work to well. (And YES I have debriefed this case extensively.)

Effective leadership and small unit tactics could have been emloyed by responding officers to take out these two gunmen. Regrettably, this is not taught at the academy or during inservice.

Don't get me wrong. The guys did great. they did what they were taught and many improvised and demonstrated excellent leadership under fire, but all and all....basic coordinated small unit tactics as taught in the military could have been of great use.

Basic infantry skills: Shoot, move and communicate.

It takes combat skills to solve a combat problem.


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-Sparky

[-=[MIKE]=-]

BUM
A person who is skilled with just a regular old semi-auto or bolt action rifle or whatever kind you were talking about wouldn't be able to take care of someone who has a fully automatic weapon unless the guy with full auto didn't know what he was doing.
Another thing to take into consideration is what type of fully automatic weapon the person is using, if its a cheap one then
its probably not as accurate as the rifle and maybe it will lose.
One other circumstance that the rifle would win would be if the fully automatic was a submachinegun and the distance was long enough to make the pistol rounds of the subgun pretty much ineffective. Another thing to take into consideration is what type of fully automatic weapon the person is using, if its a cheap one then
Of course its not impossible for the rifle to win but having full auto capability is a pretty big advantage.

[Sheriff738]

Originally posted by Sparky:
....basic coordinated small unit tactics as taught in the military could have been of great use.

Basic infantry skills: Shoot, move and communicate.

It takes combat skills to solve a combat problem.




Seen the "Active Shooter" training going around? It is part of our Academy training now. It was designed for clearing buildings, but there is no reason it would not work on two knuckleheads in the open.

Todd



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Used to be that we "Worldproofed" our children. Now society wants to childproof the world.

[Niteshift]

"A person who is skilled with just a regular old semi-auto or bolt action rifle or whatever kind you were talking about wouldn't be able to take care of someone who has a fully automatic weapon unless the guy with full auto didn't know what he was doing."

Don't be so certain. First, a majority of people don't know how to fire full auto. That's why the military started getting M-16's with the 3 round burst selector. Second, there is the "spray and pray" syndrome. You have 30 rounds in the gun, you empty the gun, figuring you'll have to hit something. This was not an uncommon occurance when cops started using autopistols. They'd go out, fire 15 rounds and hit nothing. Then some old-timer with a six shooter would show up, fire one round and end the fight. Why? Because the guy with only 6 in the gun knew he only had 6 and knew he had to make each one count. So he'd concentrate, watch the front sight and squeeze the trigger.

"Another thing to take into consideration is what type of fully automatic weapon the person is using, if its a cheap one then
its probably not as accurate as the rifle and maybe it will lose."

Most of the time, even cheap weapons are capable of better accuracy than you can get out of them.

"One other circumstance that the rifle would win would be if the fully automatic was a submachinegun and the distance was long enough to make the pistol rounds of the subgun pretty much ineffective."

That's pretty much correct.

"Another thing to take into consideration is what type of fully automatic weapon the person is using, if its a cheap one then
Of course its not impossible for the rifle to win but having full auto capability is a pretty big advantage."

Again, price and accuracy are not always linked.



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Niteshift-
Perseverate In Pugna

[-=[MIKE]=-]

When I use the word cheap, I mean to use it as a term for generally crappy construction, sorry for the misunderstanding. I know alot of low cost guns are extremely accurate, for example the savage arms 110fp can be found for under $400 and it shoots 1/2 minute of angle right out of the box in some cases. And m16's are only about $450 for you guys in law enforcement aren't they?
Also, when you said most people do not know how to fire full auto, that's what I meant when I said "unless they dont know what they are doing." If someone is resorting to the "spray and pray" method, then as far as I'm concerned they fall into the "I dont know what I'm doing" category.

[-=[MIKE]=-]

I was thinking about this and i forgot one situation where the person with the slower rate of fire would win. If he got the jump on the person with the full auto and made his first shot count, then it would most likely be over right then.

[Niteshift]

The 110FP is a good example of a reasonably priced rifle that is pretty darned accurate.

Shot placement, cool collected thought and training will generally prevail over simple firepower.



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Niteshift-
Perseverate In Pugna

[Sparky]

Sheriff738:

Nope, I haven't seen the "Active Shooter" training that you mentioned. Sounds like it might be interesting, though.

I'll keep my eye out for info.

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-Sparky

[Sheriff738]

Originally posted by Sparky:
Sheriff738:

Nope, I haven't seen the "Active Shooter" training that you mentioned. Sounds like it might be interesting, though.

I'll keep my eye out for info.



It is designed to prevent another Columbine type incident.

Basically, you take the first 5 officers responding (after the perimeter is secured) and form an entry team. They get into a diamond formation with a team leader in the middle. Then do like Custer, ride towards the sound of the guns. If the shooting stops before the team gets to the area/room, they hold up and wait for the Tac Team. But as long as someone is shooting, they continue to march until they stop the shooter.

The idea being, you don't want to wait the 1/2 hour or so it will take for Tac to arrive when you have a nut or two determined to just kill as many as they want. Can you imagine what the death toll would have been had Harris and Klebold kept shooting until they ran out of ammo?

Todd



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Used to be that we "Worldproofed" our children. Now society wants to childproof the world.

[cajuncop]

Outgunned? That's an understatement. Try this one on for size. With us, what you see is what yoy get. We carry Glock 22 issued with 50 rounds of Winchester SXT's. Other than that, nutin!

We don't even have shotguns in our units anymore. Don't ask me, I don't know why. Now if you want to use a shotgun, sure you can check one out at the beginning of the shift. However, the shotgun is in a sealed case. And we are not allowed to open the case unless, we intend on using it. I don't know about you, but I am not gonna have a shotgun unless I can check it first.

So our only other choice is to buy your own shotgun, departmental specs (Remington 870 express), and bring it to work with you.

I've even heard of other departments where a Supervisor carries extra ammo and shotguns/rifles, etc. Guess what, not here.

Anyway, I take it upon myself to make sure that I am armed the way I see fit.

[JKT]

Our Patrol Officers carry their issued sidearm (Sig P226 in .357sig), Shotgun, and their choice of Gov't Mini 14 or AR15. Not to mention personally owned/Department approved backup/second weapon and extra ammnution. We have a small Patrol Division (18 Officers total) that has to patrol about 1,000 square miles so back-up is sometimes 15 to 20 minutes away.

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Optimistic pessimist: Hope for the best, but expect the worst.

Jack

[Sheriff738]

Originally posted by JKT:
We have a small Patrol Division (18 Officers total) that has to patrol about 1,000 square miles so back-up is sometimes 15 to 20 minutes away.



Yep, that sounds like West Texas.

Todd W.



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Used to be that we "Worldproofed" our children. Now society wants to childproof the world.

[Libertarian]

JKT,

Being spread so thin do you find yourself having to be more like Rooster Cogburn than the average city cop or do you feel you are operating under pretty much the same limitations?

[mosetti]

If you want to talk about extremes, anyone who has been an MP can attest to this.
In a combat unit an MP Team gets one armored HMMWV, a heavy weapon (Mark 19 Grenade Launcher, M2 .50 Caliber machine gun, or M240B Machine Gun), an M249 Squad Automatic Weapon (SAW), along with you personal weapons (M4 Carbine or M16 Rifle and a M9 Pistol). All with a combat load of ammo.
On the road (this varies from post to post) we get a M9 Pistol (Beretta 92F) with 10 rounds. Not cool rounds either, 9mm ball. That is it. No shotgun, no long gun, not even many rounds. I am a good shot and all, but 10 rounds. It is not like it is a closed post with no crime or anything. I am talking about a post where you can barely tell where Fairfax County ends and where Fort Belvoir begins.

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Chris Mosetti
USAMP

[Niteshift]

"On the road (this varies from post to post) we get a M9 Pistol (Beretta 92F) with 10 rounds."

Boy, that does vary. My last post issued the M9 and we went on duty with 3 full 15 round mags and one in the chamber. Even when we had the .45's, we carried 3 full mags.

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Niteshift-
Perseverate In Pugna

[JKT]

Libertarian;
We operate pretty much like any other agency. We have one person units, usually two to three patrol officers plus a Sergeant on duty. Shifts are scheduled where the usual busy times have better coverage. Also, overlapping ten hour shifts helps.

It's not quite as bleak as it sounds. There are also State Troopers (DPS) out and the smaller towns' officers are very good at backing our guys. When they are in their areas, they will assist outside their city limits. This is by mutual agreement, because most of these small towns only have one, maybe two officers out at a time and rely on us for assistance. The population of our county is around 300,000, and other than one city of 200,000, things are pretty spread out. Lots of cotton farms.

We may not (currently) offer much in the way of range time or training, but it is improving. It works pretty well.

Of course, there are times when 50 officers wouldn't be enough http://www.officer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

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Optimistic pessimist: Hope for the best, but expect the worst.

Jack

[titusrose]

Originally posted by Niteshift:
The 110FP is a good example of a reasonably priced rifle that is pretty darned accurate.

Shot placement, cool collected thought and training will generally prevail over simple firepower.

This is why you guys win. I'd much prefer the frightened criminal take a shot at me with an auto. as have you, with one round left shoot at me, keep up the good work guys, Rose

[Sheriff738]

Originally posted by mosetti:
It is not like it is a closed post with no crime or anything. I am talking about a post where you can barely tell where Fairfax County ends and where Fort Belvoir begins.



But Rt. 1 is such a nice neighborhood. LOL, I refer to my time living on Rt. 1 as "crack alley".

Todd



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Used to be that we "Worldproofed" our children. Now society wants to childproof the world.

[kev I-40]

Originally posted by Sheriff738:
But Rt. 1 is such a nice neighborhood. LOL, I refer to my time living on Rt. 1 as "crack alley".

Todd

[kev I-40]

Originally posted by kev I-40:


I was able to convince our admin. to allow us to have AR-15's as an optional weapon. I plagerized a report from the Tacoma PD on the subject. The main points they had were:

You can buy five rounds of .223 for the cost of one round of buck shot or slug.

Because of rifling, rifles are naturally more accurate.

Small statured officers can handle the recoil of a .223 better than that from a 12 gauge.

When you pull the trigger on a shotgun, you have 9 to 12 pellets to account for. With a rifle you have one.

Accurate range is far greater with a rifle. (Being out ranged by a kid with a .22 cal rifle is bad news when you have a shotgun).

.223 rounds usually fragment when they hit a hard surface. Shotgun pellets ricochett all over the place.

The bad side is that many 'sensitive' administrators do not like the image that a cop armed with a large magazine rifle presents to some of their citizens.

That idea is kind or ridiculus though, in the way that we don't pull out our .12 gauges every time we get out of the car on a normal contact, but its nice to know if it hits the fan, its available.

[Jim Burnes]

TO SPARKEY;

You say you have studied the La bank robbery incident? Please advise me on this question that I have had since the day the incident took place:

The two men had criminal records. They were not new to crime. So, they had to know that if they really wanted to rob a bank, it could have been done with a simple written note and a paper bag.

In your opinion, what was their actual reason for being so heavily armed, armored and obivious?

Was bank robbery the actual intention? Or what?

Jim Burnes