Shot placement discussion coronor's graphic photos linked

[David Hineline]

I do not shoot in any Law Enforcement or defensive under fire situation, but in my wildest firefire fantasies or nightmares I can not see how anyone in the LE business could fire 107rnds of ammunition and only have 17 hits on the perp at a distance of only 20 feet. That's only a 16% hit ratio.

Graphic coronor's photos at the link posted so don't click it if that type of thing is upsetting. We can discuss accuracy under fire without looking at gross photos.


http://www.defensivecarry.com/documents/officer.pdf

[Narco]

Until you are involved in one don't judge those officers...you can't begin to imagine the stress you're under in a situation like that. What's important here is that the link takes us to pics of the bad guy's autopsy and not an officer's.

[Patrol4Life]

Right on.

I think 16% is right around the average for officer involved shootings.

[JTShooter]

go out and get shot at.

tell me how well you do.... if you come back alive...

[exComptonCop]

hmmm,

"Whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger" and "Live by the gun, die by the gun"

Looks like he got his wish

[David Hineline]

If I am ever there, I hope I am above average because I don't carry 100 rnds on my person when I am out and about. I can't afford a 20% hit ratio.

This was at the distance of the length of a typical US car, 5 feet less than the distance our club shoots bowling pins at.

If this was driving a car that would mean one out of 10 emergency manuvers did not wreck the vehicle.

I really think officers need to practice more with thier tools, I think too many of them think of it as something they have to carry but not be proficient with.

[LA DEP]

Part of the problem is that most officers dont train to shoot in a high stress environment........far to many officers dont train enough in non-stress situations either......

Also, once the poo hits the fan, there are alot of physiological changes that happen to most people, which will make them even less accurate.....tunnel vision, loss of fine motor control, rapid breathing, very rapid heart rate to name a few......

The incident described in the PDF was not just a 'shooting', it was a several minute GUNFIGHT in which the involved officers are fighting for their lives....I would imagine that more than a few of those rounds were suppression fire, not directed fire......

This incident reinforces the motto that 'bullets dont work'......you must continue to engage your threat until he is down for the count.....

[deputy x 2]

What he ^^^ said is true.

Simunitions (sp) is probably the closest "feeling" to a fire fight. It is way different to shoot at a man with one hand on his hip and stands still....than to have someone shoot back at you.

Who knows how they are going to react in a real case incident. As long as the bg ends up on the slab.....and you get to go home...good job! It doesn't matter if it took one bullet or several.

The LA shootout was thousands of rounds..........and the end result was slab time x 2.

[fdkay]

When your bowling pins shoot back, call me.
How many people have missed bowling pins because they shot to fast?
Are the bowling pins moving or stationary?
Try this at your next shoot, do 30 jumping jacks, 20 push ups, runs 25 yards to the firing line, all the while someone is shooting a blank gun close to your head and put a time limit of 60 seconds for the whole event.
See how many of those evil bowling pins you knock down then.
I do agree with your assessment that officers need to practice more.
However, not every department provides practice ammo and they do not exactly throw money at Police Officers.

[David Hineline]

I am glad that the gangsta wannabee punks practice less than anyone else.

The fact that bowling pins do not shoot back is even more reason that I would want to have a better hit ratio. I have never done any force on force but would like to, but have done plenty of shooting after 50 to 100yds of forward run in competition, I am not a stand in one place static shooter. If you are fully satisfied with a 17% hit ratio at 20feet distance like in that report more power to you and good luck. If that ever happend to me and I only got a 17% hit ratio, it would be my wake up call to either get better with my tools or quit the business. I know that after a 75yd run in the middle of an mild asthma attack I can put a 3rnd burst from an MP5 into the Azone of an IPSC target at 50yds. Then I fall over out of breath after the stage, but up to the point of passing out due to lack of oxygen I can hit a target.

Like I said I am glad that the bad guys are even worst shots than average.

[hooknbook]

What's your hit ratio while laying across the seat of a patrol car, taking rounds, trying to get your seat belt off, breaking leather, and praying to God???

[Narco]

you're not making any friend or proving any points David =) the fact is there is nothing in this world you could ever do to replicate those circumstances. we are trained to use suppresive fire if needed. i'm sure a mag or 2 of that would make my hit ratio fall as well.

[Blackdog F4i]

David, I am sure you are a great shooter and that will HELP in a lethal force encounter however it will not gaurantee that your brain won't take a dump.

Unfortunately the average "badguy" who is inclined to shoot at police has FAR more experience in lethal force encounters than the officers he is going against. We have far more "banger on banger" shootings than we do OIS.

As mentioned, simunitions is about as close as you can get without actually using live rounds. When the scenario is setup correctly it can trigger some of the same physical responses. When we run Sims training we have to download the mags to prevent officers from wasting rounds. It does have an added advantage of forcing you to reload under fire. It still isn't the same. I have not been in an OIS (thankfully), but other "actions" in my life have exposed me to threats to my survival. Until you have been there, it's hard to imagine.

What it comes down to is the officer survived the badguy didn't.

Until we get administrators who realize that it's cheaper to pay for ammo than death benefits we will continue to be behind the power curve.

[Fëanor]

I have never been shot at but I've been in other life-threatening situations where I had to react quickly. When your life is on the line and you might not live another 3 seconds, you don't really think. What happens is instinct.

If the officers point their guns in the general direction of the shooter, they are doing as well as I would probably do. If they hit him, they are probabaly doing better than I could.

Because there are officers out there risking their lives and being judged for a low hit rate during a rapidfire gunfight, I can safely take as long as I want at the range and not care if my hit rate turns out to be 1% or 100% :D

[fedaircop]

"The officer with the M-4 was able to shoot underneath a vehicle and hit the suspect in the ankle."

Sounds like the Suspect was making good use of cover and concealment unsaid is how much of the suspects body was visible to the officers involved and as has been stated in many of the replys here most of those rounds were probably supressive fire. It seems likely that since even the officer with the rifle didn't have a shot except the one from under the vehicle until he was able to flank the bad guy the officers involved probably had no target to shoot at. I am sure you've noticed all the possibles and probablies in this post which is the best I am able to do since I wasn't there being shot at from concealment by an unknown assailant. Of cousre David if you have some more insight into this incident than is available in the blog you posted I'd sure like to hear it.

Seems like there are just a bunch of folks who enjoy pointing out the "mistakes" of the police with no idea of what the actual facts were.

[FiremanMike]

There's a lot of things in that pdf that just flat didn't make sense, Clearly it is to be used as a part of a lecture and not as a self study, unless anyone else has any insight on it?

I.e.

"40 caliber ammunition CANNOT expand in less than 1 ft" - except that it did
"223 ammunition does not and did not meet terminal ballistics" - except that they did.

Am I missing something?

[cmr164]

I have been shot once and under fire once. The first was an accident but the second... I was patrolling a low income housing project going up in a high income area with non-union labor in New Bedford MA when someone with a rifle took a shot at me from about 75 yards away. I remember hearing the round go by. I threw myself to the ground and hit the ground reloading my .38 SPC. Back then, I loaded 5 rounds and left the cylinder under the hammer empty. To the best of my knowledge I did not hit him but the response did scare him off. He got off a 2nd wild shot and ran away never to be caught or identified. The time at the range definitely paid off in the instinctual draw and fire, but where at the range there would have been 5 shots in the black, in real life, while moving/taking cover, in the dark and at that distance , I missed every shot.

[flyfrog]

-David - thanks for the link to a interesting pdf and some thought provoking "conversation".

-I'm with FiremanMike about some of ammo remarks. It is surpising about the 40 performance but they didn't say if the rounds had passed thru doors, seats, glass, etc

-I am also surprised by some of the "if you haven't done/seen/been what i have, you DON'T know!". As i'm sure many here have experiences i have not, i'm also sure it has gone the other way. If you don't want to read comments by NON cops, stay in the Officer's only section (and stay close-minded).

-Bottom line: MOST people i know (military, police, etc) who carry firearms don't practice enough, PERIOD. I know it isn't usually free, but buy a used 22/45 & 5000 rounds of .22 and shoot 100 rounds a week for under $300 (A YEAR!). Most people know that shooting practice isn't like a real shooting, but if that is the mentality then why bother practicing anything anyway?

-Good on those officers for having the clarity to keep fighting & winning!

Thanks to all those who protect & serve.

[XD_Operator]

....I threw myself to the ground and hit the ground reloading my .38 SPC. Back then, I loaded 5 rounds and left the cylinder under the hammer empty....

I am just curious, why did you leave a round out? And did you reload before firing or is that a typo? I really am just curious, I don't understand.

[cmr164]

I am just curious, why did you leave a round out? And did you reload before firing or is that a typo? I really am just curious, I don't understand.

I left an empty cylinder under the hammer for safety purposes and I was reloading as I hit the ground. The first five were already on the way. My reload was 6 rounds.

Safety: A dropped revolver can fire if it lands wrong and there is a round under the hammer.

[Surf]

... If you don't want to read comments by NON cops, stay in the Officer's only section (and stay close-minded).....Well alrighty then. IP check please! :D

[XD_Operator]

10-4 I figured it was a safety issue.

[JTShooter]

The comments about not knowing how you're going to do until you're in a firefight are completely legitimate.

You don't know if you're going to be the guy who can maintain focus on the front sight and squeeze off rounds, or the guy who is going to hide behind the engine block firing blindly... OR the guy who sits there and cries.

On top of that, how do you know you're practicing the right drills? Shooting a magazine into a black mass at varying distances is NOT going to prepare you for a firefight.

Have you practiced malfunction drills? have you practiced "combat reloading"? Have you practice leaning out from cover to fire? Have you practice movement from cover to cover while taking aimed fire? How about suppressive fire?

There's a lot more to a firefight then just putting rounds down range.

[David Hineline]

The comments about not knowing how you're going to do until you're in a firefight are completely legitimate.

You don't know if you're going to be the guy who can maintain focus on the front sight and squeeze off rounds, or the guy who is going to hide behind the engine block firing blindly... OR the guy who sits there and cries.

On top of that, how do you know you're practicing the right drills? Shooting a magazine into a black mass at varying distances is NOT going to prepare you for a firefight.

Have you practiced malfunction drills? have you practiced "combat reloading"? Have you practice leaning out from cover to fire? Have you practice movement from cover to cover while taking aimed fire? How about suppressive fire?

There's a lot more to a firefight then just putting rounds down range.

I routinely have done all of the above except for suppressive fire. All my shooting training has come from either IPSC instructors or these guys
http://www.signal88security.com/Training.aspx I would like to take more instruction from them as it is totally a different mindset and skill set than what IPSC shooting gives a person.

Yes the online report of this did not give much detail on the account, I would just expect less shooting more hitting.

This is what I do with my weekends, http://youtube.com/watch?v=JAkQZ6u-VX8

[url]http://youtube.com/watch?v=RYcgT6BB0CI[url]

[mobtown]

There's a lot of things in that pdf that just flat didn't make sense, Clearly it is to be used as a part of a lecture and not as a self study, unless anyone else has any insight on it?

I.e.

"40 caliber ammunition CANNOT expand in less than 1 ft" - except that it did
"223 ammunition does not and did not meet terminal ballistics" - except that they did.

Am I missing something?
I am by no means a firearms expert but I would like to clarifying a few things (quoted directly from the PDF):
"It is impossible for .40 S&W 180 gr. JHP ammunition to expand with only 1 in. or less penetration in a human body."

"All rounds penetrated less than 1". ... "The subject also received one round into the front of his throat, it penetrated less than 1" as well. The Medical Examiner stated that the recovered rounds were in pristine condition (still had rifling marks on them)."

"The performance of the .223 TAP ammunition, although consistent with manufacturer's claims, did not perform terminally as this Police Department expected." -- They don't specifically discuss ballistics. They simply state that the rounds didn't perform as expected. Unexpanded? Not enough penetration?

"Results of Hornady 55gr. and 75 gr. TAP do not satisfy FBI standards for terminal performance."

[pulicords]

I left an empty cylinder under the hammer for safety purposes and I was reloading as I hit the ground. The first five were already on the way. My reload was 6 rounds.

Safety: A dropped revolver can fire if it lands wrong and there is a round under the hammer.

Unless you are carrying a S&W or Colt revolver made before 1945 or a cheap import, carrying six rounds in the cylinder is safe. Modern DA revolvers have had rebounding hammers and hammer block safeties since the Second World War and even Ruger SA revolvers made since the mid-70's ("New Model" Blackhawk and Super Blackhawks) are also safe to carry fully loaded.

Regarding the performance of .223 ammunition: Human bodies are not ballistic gellatin. Hitting muscle, bone, flesh and ligaments will all vary in regards to performance based upon such things as distance, angle, the objects struck before striking the body and the placement of the shot.

Additionally, the barrel length of the weapon fired can result in higher or lower velocities, that also effect the degree of expansion. Short barreled rifles can significantly decrease the effectiveness of the rounds fired due to lesser velocities. If bullets designed to expand at velocity "A" only go fast enough to expand when fired from a 20" barrel, firing them from a weapon with a 11.5 or 14.5" barrel might not provide the needed velocity to cause expansion. The result could be excessive penetration. If bullets designed to expand at velocities consistent with 11.5" barrels are fired from a 20" barrel at too close of a range, the bullets might fragment due to excessive speed and fail to penetrate sufficiently.

[Blackdog F4i]

-I am also surprised by some of the "if you haven't done/seen/been what i have, you DON'T know!". As i'm sure many here have experiences i have not, i'm also sure it has gone the other way. If you don't want to read comments by NON cops, stay in the Officer's only section (and stay close-minded).

You have got to be kidding me.

The bottom line is those who have never been in mortal combat should not criticize those who have.

[Narco]

+1, regarding THIS particular topic, NON cops have absolutely nothing of value to add to the thread

[Narco]

This is what I do with my weekends, http://youtube.com/watch?v=JAkQZ6u-VX8

Doesn't look very stressful

[JTShooter]

+1, regarding THIS particular topic, NON cops have absolutely nothing of value to add to the thread

Ok, noted. ;)

[LA DEP]

You have got to be kidding me.

The bottom line is those who have never been in mortal combat should not criticize those who have.

+1

But, I would add that anyone who has 'been there, done that, got the T-shirt' has a valid opinion......LEO, military, a citizen that has had to use deadly force ect.......

[Surf]

This is what I do with my weekends, http://youtube.com/watch?v=JAkQZ6u-VX8
No offense David, but there is NO type of competition induced stress that even closely resembles or simulates an actual gunfight. Hell even Sims, being about the closest, pales in comparison to the real deal.

[Blackdog F4i]

+1

But, I would add that anyone who has 'been there, done that, got the T-shirt' has a valid opinion......LEO, military, a citizen that has had to use deadly force ect.......

I agree. That is why I did not narrow it down. If you have seen the Elephant, then you know how you will perform.

[Bronze]

If you have seen the Elephant, then you know how you will perform.

Couldnt have said it better myself.

[cmr164]

Unless you are carrying a S&W or Colt revolver made before 1945 or a cheap import, carrying six rounds in the cylinder is safe. Modern DA revolvers have had rebounding hammers and hammer block safeties since the Second World War and even Ruger SA revolvers made since the mid-70's ("New Model" Blackhawk and Super Blackhawks) are also safe to carry fully loaded.


The events I was describing took place in 1973, I had both S/W and Ruger revolvers at that time and I carried with an empty cylinder under the hammer with both. Maybe the hammer blocks were there and worked but I was 100% sure that not having a round under the hammer worked.

[Hoyt19]

+1, regarding THIS particular topic, NON cops have absolutely nothing of value to add to the thread
I understand that this was a LE shooting, but I would agrue, that anyone that has been under fire does have something of value to add. LE, military, private security etc, could all have something of value to add to this subject.

[rookie2812]

So if you/others don't like our/my responses maybe you/others shouldn't come on a LE website and play Monday Morning Quarterback on a bunch of cops who made it home at the end of the night when your only basis for comparison is shooting FREAKING BOWLING PINS:eek:

+1. You beat me to it...I couldn't have said it any better.

[jwise]

Ok, guys. Calm down. David, you DO owe an apology for the following comment:

If you are fully satisfied with a 17% hit ratio at 20feet distance like in that report more power to you and good luck. If that ever happened to me and I only got a 17% hit ratio, it would be my wake up call to either get better with my tools or quit the business.

That was above the pale.

The rest of you guys should consider the source, before shooting your mouths off. David is a good guy. He is on our side. He wants us to win. He WANTS us to practice, become proficient, then become masters of our tools. He has no professional "need" to hone his weaponcraft, but does so anyway. How much MORE should WE as armed professionals take our skills seriously?

On the face of it, 17% is DISMAL! I can understand why David would be shocked at that stat. However, he should have posted the link, and tossed up the stat as a conversation starter, leaving out any opinion. That would have gone over much better in the "bull pen," and would have resulted in a much better conversation flow.

I asked my Range Officer, and unofficially, he estimates our numbers in the50-70% range for all OISs, but 0% for actual GUN BATTLES. That is, those shots fired while the officer was actually being SHOT at. We haven't had one in a LONG time, because we usually shoot the perp before he gets off his first shot THESE days... :)

This particular incident wasn't just an OIS, nor even a gun battle, but an AMBUSH! As was stated above, GOOD ON 'EM for fighting their way out of an ambush and WINNING!

[jwise]

Oh, and David exhibits shooting skills far superior than probably 90% of the officers in the US. He DOES have a lot to share, and shooting bowling pins is one of the absolute best drills you can do on a "one-way" range.

[1042 Trooper]

Bottom line is... that idiot looks kinda dead to me. Jokes on him.

I'd call that pretty damned deadly shooting.

Tell ya what sport. Go run a mile, uphill, and then immediately draw and try to shoot straight. It isn't adrenalyn, but the shaking and panting somewhat simulate the problem.

Now....imagine being shot at while you try to shoot straight.

The scum is on the slab and the good guys went home. We call that, good shootin'!

[David Hineline]

It's nothing to do with you guys or LE or any other group, I just am not the touchey feely type of person who tries to say things the way they want to hear it as I have no feelings or ability to tune into another person's needs.

When I ask my wife why having her period makes her so bitchy and irritable. I am not asking or insinuating anyting other that seeking factual information on why she's so bitchy and irritable.

When a gun guys says what do you think of my new gun, if I think it's a piece of crap I say that.

When I state I can't imagine a 17% hit ratio being acceptable I am looking for factual information I might be missing so that I can imagine how this can happen.

Anyway I could go on and on. In no way are my intentions ever anti cop. Though I do not support all things that cops are tasked by society to do.

The only anti-cop person in this thread was the guy on the slab.

For those who mentioned reasons for why that type of thing happens, thankyou that is what I was looking for. For those who tried to turn this into a slam the fat guy citizen shooter rather than explaing why the original topic was or was not acceptable performance, please keep in mind that I do not have to be a NASCAR Race driver to sit on the sidelines and be able to judge who was the winner.

[david30816]

It's nothing to do with you guys or LE or any other group, I just am not the touchey feely type of person who tries to say things the way they want to hear it as I have no feelings or ability to tune into another person's needs.

Me either... Now, since your not the cops (per your own profile)... Stop talking in this room!

[Surf]

.....I just am not the touchey feely type of person who tries to say things the way they want to hear it as I have no feelings or ability to tune into another person's needs.Fair enough David, I will answer you in the same matter of fact way. The fact is we are talking about individuals who go out there every day and put their lives on the line. They did what they needed to do to make it home. Many or most of us here fit into that same category where going home every day is what matters. So when you ask your questions on such topics you had best "tune into another persons needs" out of plain courtesy and respect for others and ask your questions keeping that in mind. Written words on a screen are very hard to discern the writers emotion or intent, so it is perhaps best to take the time to explain what you mean. Either that or most will tell you to go **** yourself, including me.

And David 30816, I don't think this is a restricted area and Mr. Hineline has every right to be posting here.

[29474]

...in my wildest firefire fantasies or nightmares I can not see how anyone in the LE business could fire 107rnds of ammunition and only have 17 hits on the perp at a distance of only 20 feet. That's only a 16% hit ratio.http://www.defensivecarry.com/documents/officer.pdf

With all due respect to what occurs (or is excluded from) your fantasies, the realities of law-enforcement shootings are in a different universe. Examine some of the following statistics, from an NYPD study (NYPD SOP 9 (http://www.virginiacops.org/Articles/Shooting/Combat.htm)), which researched over 6000 cases involving police combat:

1. From Sept 1854 to Dec 1979, 254 officers died from wounds received in an armed encounter. The shooting distance in 90% of those cases was less than 15 feet.

Contact to 3 feet ... 34%
3 feet to 6 feet ...... 47%
6 feet to 15 feet ..... 9%

2. The police officer's potential for hitting his adversary during armed
confrontation has increased over the years and stands at slightly over 25% of the rounds fired. An assailant's skill was 11% in 1979.

In 1990 the overall police hit potential was 19%. Where distances could be
determined, the hit percentages at distances under 15 yards were:

Less than 3 yards ..... 38%
3 yards to 7 yards .. 11.5%
7 yards to 15 yards .. 9.4%

In 1992 the overall police hit potential was 17%. Where distances could be
determined, the hit percentages at distances under 15 yards were:

Less than 3 yards ..... 28%
3 yards to 7 yards .... 11%
7 yards to 15 yards . 4.2%

3. Finally, the study not only found a disconnect between range shooting and combat shooting, but also indicated that the US Army has recognized such a disconnect as well.


I've been shot at a couple of times in my career -- never hit. I will always stand beside my brothers and celebrate that THE GOOD GUYS won and THE BAD GUY lost. Thanks for sharing some good pictures!

[david30816]

And David 30816, I don't think this is a restricted area and Mr. Hineline has every right to be posting here.

Surf -- You're right, my mistake. Either way, I agree with your last sentence.

[Woofdog]

There's a world of difference between range shooting and stopping an active deadly threat.

[fdkay]

For some reason David can't figure out how his statement, that for the most part says "You guys suck at shooting, I'm much better!!!" caused people to jump in his face.
Just because he is so full of himself and does not take the time to consider the ramifications of what he says doesn't mean we have to be condescending to him.
It's bad enough that we have to put up with being bad mouthed while out on the job, we shouldn't have to put up with it on a forum intended for LE/Military to exchange information and ideas.

[Narco]

I understand that this was a LE shooting, but I would agrue, that anyone that has been under fire does have something of value to add. LE, military, private security etc, could all have something of value to add to this subject.

you're right, i stand corrected. should have said that anyone who has not ever been in a deadly force encounter (involving multiple shots)...thank you

[Narco]

Highline,

I understand your sentiments and the fact you were trying to understand why the ratio was so low, but you damn sure could have been more amicable about it. Something along the lines of "Hey, the ratio here is 17%. Why is that? I'm curious as to why police shooting ratios aren't higher...", would have worked just fine.

[David Hineline]

Highline,

I understand your sentiments and the fact you were trying to understand why the ratio was so low, but you damn sure could have been more amicable about it. Something along the lines of "Hey, the ratio here is 17%. Why is that? I'm curious as to why police shooting ratios aren't higher...", would have worked just fine.


I do not have the ability to tune in on the proper way to ask things. Belive me there are plenty of other discussion boards I left either force out or left on my own becuase people would take our debates way to seriously.

I love to debate and some think that having a different opinion is some form of disrespect. I just like point counterpoint. I had to leave the 10-8 forums because there was no way even on my best behavior I could not make people cry.

[David Hineline]

Let me try a new story. Here is an officer involved shooting, due to my lack of LE/experience can you trained officers please critique for me how this man did in performance of his job so I can better understand the situation.

See that's as nice a way as I can think of to ask someone to critigue actions, it still sounds a bit condescending to me. Anyway both stories ended up with the proper outcome good guys win, bad guys loose.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=175_1216836804

[David Hineline]

Either am I, so if me shooting my mouth off about your hobby and lack of knowledge has offended you... to bad



Don't ever worry about offending me, it can't happen my wife does not like me, my daughter does not like me, and I have more friends than I can pay attn: to now and due to my own self worth I have no illusions that any one elses opinion of me in any way can upset me due to my lack of concern of what they think. I can take all you can dish out.

[fdkay]

it can't happen my wife does not like me, my daughter does not like me,

Got a clue?

[TeeJay321]

Don't ever worry about offending me, it can't happen my wife does not like me, my daughter does not like me, and I have more friends than I can pay attn: to now and due to my own self worth I have no illusions that any one elses opinion of me in any way can upset me due to my lack of concern of what they think. I can take all you can dish out.

David, I wasn't going to chime in here, but I can't bite my tongue any longer. You have successfully shown in this thread alone how ignorant and arrogant you really are. This could have been a very good discussion but instead almost everyone has turned on you and now nothing good will come of it. Remember you're on a web site dedicated to the men and women who go out every shift not knowing what the day/night might bring. I've never heard anyone boast about how their wife and child don't like them, but after reading your comments here and hearing of how you speak to your wife, it's hard to feel sorry for you. While you may have had good intentions when posting this thread, your arrogance has overshadowed it.

Have a nice day.

[David Hineline]

I always have a nice day, thanks for your well wishes. Back at you.

[LA DEP]

Let me try a new story. Here is an officer involved shooting, due to my lack of LE/experience can you trained officers please critique for me how this man did in performance of his job so I can better understand the situation.

See that's as nice a way as I can think of to ask someone to critigue actions, it still sounds a bit condescending to me. Anyway both stories ended up with the proper outcome good guys win, bad guys loose.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=175_1216836804

He did a pretty good job, except for turning his back on the first suspect that he shot.....even though he put two rounds in the guy, that doesnt mean that he is out of the fight completely........

Also, I either missed his reload after the other suspects fled in the vehicle, or he didnt reload at all.......if he was carrying a revolver, he is out of rounds at that point.....

[Narco]

Let me try a new story. Here is an officer involved shooting, due to my lack of LE/experience can you trained officers please critique for me how this man did in performance of his job so I can better understand the situation.

See that's as nice a way as I can think of to ask someone to critigue actions, it still sounds a bit condescending to me. Anyway both stories ended up with the proper outcome good guys win, bad guys loose.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=175_1216836804

I don't like crtiquing b/c I wasn't there, but, from what I can see on tape, there are 2 things that stick out.

1. As LA said above, I wouldn't have turned my back on perp #1 unless I cuffed him 1st and removed the gun from his proximity.

2. I would have tried to use better cover (or at least concealment) when he had the 2nd encounter in the roadway.

To his credit I feel he was smart by having his gun ready and waiting for the perp to come to him. He seemed to keep his cool the whole time and move methodically through the sotre.

Also, I like how you didn't see him on the radio until after the getaway car had left. Yes, you need units there but you have to handle business 1st. All in all I say he did a great job. I'm glad everything turned out ok for him.

[Hoyt19]

Im going to ask this question here, since it seems to be on line with the topic at hand. If it does need to be moved however, just let me know where and hopefully we can start a good discussion there.


I currently work as an armed messanger for an armored car company in Iowa. I also work daily in IL, and WI. My worst fear is walking into a bank, oran other place while in the course of my duty, and being confronted with a robbery in progress, or someone trying to rob me. All of the drivers are armed, but are not allowed to leave the truck. From the moment you turn your back to the truck until you come back, you are for all purposes, a walking bank. What do you do if you find yourself in that type of situation? We do not carry any less then lethal items. I carry a Glock 17. What type of training can I go through to prepare myself as best I can if this was to happen? One of the biggest problems I feel I could have, is not having an exit, being forced into a fight, and knowing that until LE arrives, it will be me agaisnt whom ever is there. Anyone have any insight on this type of situation, or any useful tips or training advice? Last summer I took a tactical pistol class at Blackwater, and we did several things that we suppost to help break any tunnel vision, but there has to be more then that.

[Surf]

I do not have the ability to tune in on the proper way to ask things. Belive me there are plenty of other discussion boards I left either force out or left on my own becuase people would take our debates way to seriously.

I love to debate and some think that having a different opinion is some form of disrespect. I just like point counterpoint. I had to leave the 10-8 forums because there was no way even on my best behavior I could not make people cry.OK let me get this straight......Your people skills suck, your communication skills suck, your wife hates you, your kid hates you, the internet hates you....hmmmmmmmm, maybe thats a clue there fella.

[Surf]

Ok, guys. Calm down. David, you DO owe an apology for the following comment:

The rest of you guys should consider the source, before shooting your mouths off. David is a good guy. With all due respect jwise, David has not apologized for anything, nor will he. He basically said that is the way it is, too bad. There are much better ways to approach and discuss a topic. As an adult, if he cannot figure it out, then perhaps he needs a time out until he can figure it out. He probably never will, if he has had so many issues on other boards.

So if David is a good guy, he sure does a good job at hiding it.

[Blackdog F4i]

Last summer I took a tactical pistol class at Blackwater, and we did several things that we suppost to help break any tunnel vision, but there has to be more then that.

Practice, Practice, Practice. With enough reactions can become automatic. IDPA can be a good source of mild stress (since you are competing) but you have to use good tactics and not game it. Once you game it you make it worthless for anything other than fun.

Continue to take whatever training you can.

However, SITUATIONAL AWARENESS will keep you out of gunfights. You are a citizen and under no requirement to jump into a lethal force situation. SA will give you enough time to retreat, take cover and be a good witness. Remember banks are insured. Money isn't worth your life. If they start shooting people it's a whole different ballgame. Then do what you think is right.

[GGG]

When I state I can't imagine a 17% hit ratio being acceptable I am looking for factual information I might be missing so that I can imagine how this can happen.



1) Nobody said 17% hit ratio on an unobscured non moving target in practice conditions was acceptable.

2) You have been given information on why a 17% hit ratio in real world conditions is very plausible. You have chosen to ignore that information as it does not apply to what you do for a hobby.



There are many officers that need to practice more and take their survival skills more seriously. Had you used more tact, you might have been able to express that point.

[willbird]

+1, regarding THIS particular topic, NON cops have absolutely nothing of value to add to the thread

Well............there ARE cops who have never been shot at, will never be shot at, or shoot at anybody.

And there ARE people who are not cops who have been shot, and have had to shoot at other humans.

So I would think "unless you have been shot at, or have had to shoot at humans, your opinions will not be weighed as heavily as the ones of those who HAVE" would be a bit more fair and truthful. And I see I'm not the only one who thought of that, long thread here.

Bill

[yammahoppy]

Personally if I was in a gun battle and I had a 1% hit ratio and the turd had a 0% hit ratio and I saw my wife that night, I would be ok with that.

[David Hineline]

Personally if I was in a gun battle and I had a 1% hit ratio and the turd had a 0% hit ratio and I saw my wife that night, I would be ok with that.

I would be ok with that if my first shot was the 1% then I would just not bother with the rest.

[Narco]

Well............there ARE cops who have never been shot at, will never be shot at, or shoot at anybody.

And there ARE people who are not cops who have been shot, and have had to shoot at other humans.

So I would think "unless you have been shot at, or have had to shoot at humans, your opinions will not be weighed as heavily as the ones of those who HAVE" would be a bit more fair and truthful. And I see I'm not the only one who thought of that, long thread here.

Bill

Right, and I'm assuming you didn't read my follow up post or you wouldn't have bothered with this. Having been shot at on several occasions and having been present on several other OIS's in my career I feel that my opinion is weighed heavier some of the others as you said.

But all things being equal I still place more weight on a cop's opinion vs a non cops (especially in this example) simply b/c they are on the streets dealing with these life/death incidents everyday...they don't always turn into shootouts.

[FiremanMike]

+1, regarding THIS particular topic, NON cops have absolutely nothing of value to add to the thread

I think veterans of Iraq could add quite a bit more than almost any officer on this board could add.

[Surf]

I would be ok with that if my first shot was the 1% then I would just not bother with the rest.
Now that wouldn't be 1%, now would it. But of course, I am sure you are quite the 1 shot, 1 kill, when it comes to gunfights. :rolleyes:

[Surf]

I think veterans of Iraq could add quite a bit more than almost any officer on this board could add.With all due respect, this issue is a dead horse. The author of that comment already conceded the point.

[cmr164]

Military shooting by our troops in other countries is apples and oranges different from LE shooting in the US. The military hit rate is way less than the 17% above and when LE shoots at BGs a better effort is made to not shot everyone in the neighborhood.

[flyfrog]

so much hate in here.

i have to go to the range and practice for my bowling pin match.

[JTShooter]

Military shooting by our troops in other countries is apples and oranges different from LE shooting in the US. The military hit rate is way less than the 17% above and when LE shoots at BGs a better effort is made to not shot everyone in the neighborhood.

And you know this how....?

I take offense to this statement... as I'm sure others will....

[Surf]

This is no dig at the military in any way. IMO there is no way to compare the mission of the military in comparrison to LE. I fully expect the military to be able to expend much higher numbers of rounds used per hit or kill. Having said that........

The Vietnam hit ratio was 1 confirmed kill for every 50,000 rounds. The snipers had a very good ratio of 1.3 rounds per Kill.

Claims for Iraq is somewhere around 250,000-300,000 rounds per insurgent killed. As mentioned I have no issue with this but even if you had a 10% hit ratio, that would be 1 insurgent hit per every 10 rounds. Not even possible. I just did a quick google search, so I can't give any validity to these claims. They seem rather high, but it would be more than safe to say that any military hit ratio's would be much lower than what we are discussing here.


There is a sign at the USMC sniper school that reads "The average rounds expended per kill with
the M16 in Vietnam was 50,000. Snipers averaged 1.3 rounds. The cost difference was $2300
v. 27 cents."


http://usmilitary.about.com/od/armytrng/a/sniperschool.htm

http://correntewire.com/250k_bullets_fired_per_insurgent_killed

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-forced-to-import-bullets-from-israel-as-troops-use-250000-for-every-rebel-killed-508299.html

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0925-02.htm

[pulicords]

I don't think it's a dig at the military. They're job and restrictions are far different than ours. Although they have rules of engagement, they're concerns about collateral damage (either involving civilian personnel or property) are much less significant than ours. Additionally, you won't find officer involved shootings where civilian law enforcement is utilizing the same tactics and techniques common in warfare (ie: Suppressive Fire). The very fact that fully automatic weapons and large quantities of additional ammunition are the norm as far as personal arms found among "front line" troops (vs semi-automatic pistols w/limited reloads as typical police carry) demonstrates why soldiers in combat typically fire many times the amount of rounds (per engagement) than cops do, and miss more often.

[crowbar]

I have been shot once and under fire once. The first was an accident but the second... I was patrolling a low income housing project going up in a high income area with non-union labor in New Bedford MA when someone with a rifle took a shot at me from about 75 yards away. I remember hearing the round go by. I threw myself to the ground and hit the ground reloading my .38 SPC. Back then, I loaded 5 rounds and left the cylinder under the hammer empty. To the best of my knowledge I did not hit him but the response did scare him off. He got off a 2nd wild shot and ran away never to be caught or identified. The time at the range definitely paid off in the instinctual draw and fire, but where at the range there would have been 5 shots in the black, in real life, while moving/taking cover, in the dark and at that distance , I missed every shot.

Military shooting by our troops in other countries is apples and oranges different from LE shooting in the US. The military hit rate is way less than the 17% above and when LE shoots at BGs a better effort is made to not shot everyone in the neighborhood.

This coming from a guy who conducts the preverbial "Spray and pray."

One shot One kill.

[cmr164]

Anyone who thinks the use of weapons by LE and military are not very different has either lied about his LE experience, his military experience, (or both) and probably got hired cause he has a cousin who needed a family member on the force. For sure that guy has never been under fire in either situation.

[crowbar]

Anyone who thinks the use of weapons by LE and military are not very different has either lied about his LE experience, his military experience, (or both) and probably got hired cause he has a cousin who needed a family member on the force. For sure that guy has never been under fire in either situation.


If you have never been in the military then you have no business refering to any tactics that are used. A bullet is a bullet, a gun is a gun, a rifle is a rifle. They all do the same thing regardless of tactics, and the objective remains.

[cmr164]

If you have never been in the military then you have no business refering to any tactics that are used. A bullet is a bullet, a gun is a gun, a rifle is a rifle. They all do the same thing regardless of tactics, and the objective remains.
US Army, 6.5 years, started out 11B ended up 34E. And you are both right. and wrong. Guys that haven't served either or who haven't been under fire or in some cases above haven't even been trained in military and LE weapons handling just don't get it. Thinking that LE and military weapons use and ROE are the same is just wrong. What is your background?

[JTShooter]

Sorry, but which combat zone did you frequent CMR? Thank you for serving, however things have changed dramatically since Vietnam. First, the military addressed the issue of the low hit precentage in Vietnam by removing automatic fire from standard M16/M4s.

In the two places I've seen combat, in the early days, the ROE was very open for interpetation, but GREAT care was taken to not "kill everyone in the neighborhood" (air ordanance aside). Everyone was trained to address the target and to identify him/her as the real target before firing. In fact, during the invasion of Iraq, we were not allowed to just shoot up a building or blow up a city block unless we had real reason to. We tried to take care of the infrastructure...

Our tactics are different in a few ways, I'll concede that point, however, at no point in my time served, was I trained to "not care about collateral damage".

[crowbar]

US Army, 6.5 years, started out 11B ended up 34E. And you are both right. and wrong. Guys that haven't served either or who haven't been under fire or in some cases above haven't even been trained in military and LE weapons handling just don't get it. Thinking that LE and military weapons use and ROE are the same is just wrong. What is your background?

Sorry, but which combat zone did you frequent CMR? Thank you for serving, however things have changed dramatically since Vietnam. First, the military addressed the issue of the low hit precentage in Vietnam by removing automatic fire from standard M16/M4s.

In the two places I've seen combat, in the early days, the ROE was very open for interpetation, but GREAT care was taken to not "kill everyone in the neighborhood" (air ordanance aside). Everyone was trained to address the target and to identify him/her as the real target before firing. In fact, during the invasion of Iraq, we were not allowed to just shoot up a building or blow up a city block unless we had real reason to. We tried to take care of the infrastructure...

Our tactics are different in a few ways, I'll concede that point, however, at no point in my time served, was I trained to "not care about collateral damage".


I will admit guilt in assuming you, CMR, did not serve and for that I appologize. However, JUSTHOMP is right. I think that maybe you are adding in suppressing fire in extreme cases? My experience however I am not going to post all over the internet. I will tell you that I am OEF Combat Veteran and have been in LE for just under 8 years. Also, my "cousin" did not get me my job or any job.

[cmr164]

....
In the two places I've seen combat, in the early days, the ROE was very open for interpetation, but GREAT care was taken to not "kill everyone in the neighborhood" (air ordanance aside). Everyone was trained to address the target and to identify him/her as the real target before firing. In fact, during the invasion of Iraq, we were not allowed to just shoot up a building or blow up a city block unless we had real reason to. We tried to take care of the infrastructure...

Our tactics are different in a few ways, I'll concede that point, however, at no point in my time served, was I trained to "not care about collateral damage".

There have been plenty of cases since the invasion where our forces have demonstrated a serious neglect for that training which BTW sounds the same as training we got back 'in the day'. Fact is that our own puppet would not be asking us to leave if the occupation forces had a better ratio of BGs vs civilians and if there were not some blatant examples where LE rules of engagement would have served a lot better than what happened.

[JTShooter]

There have been plenty of cases since the invasion where our forces have demonstrated a serious neglect for that training which BTW sounds the same as training we got back 'in the day'. Fact is that our own puppet would not be asking us to leave if the occupation forces had a better ratio of BGs vs civilians and if there were not some blatant examples where LE rules of engagement would have served a lot better than what happened.

I do not believe that they are asking us to leave because of our bad-guy/good-guy kill ratio... now you're stretching...

[Monkeybomb]

Fact is that our own puppet would not be asking us to leave if the occupation forces had a better ratio of BGs vs civilians and if there were not some blatant examples where LE rules of engagement would have served a lot better than what happened.

LE rules of engagement has no business in a military engagement unless you want to get more of our troops killed..............

[Narco]

Additionally, you won't find officer involved shootings where civilian law enforcement is utilizing the same tactics and techniques common in warfare (ie: Suppressive Fire).

Really? We train using it, especially on SWAT. I had a good friend use suppressive fire to rescue a downed officer and it afforded him the opportunity to close some distance and kill the perp.

[pulicords]

You wouldn't consider SWAT to be more of a para-military unit, using equipment and tactics more closely associated with the military than officers working patrol assignments? Although semi-automatic patrol rifles are becoming more and more common among "line officers", patrol personnel don't carry fully automatic weapons, large quantities of ammunition, pyrotechnic devices, etc, found among typical SWAT officers.

The vast percentage of officer involved shootings don't involve SWAT personnel, their equipment or the quantities of ammunition expended associated with military operations. Most "typical" OIS scenarios occur quickly, at short range, involve patrol or investigative personnel and involve relatively few shots being fired. There are of course exceptions, but I don't expect to see patrol officers routinely "outfitted" like SWAT officers or soldiers in the near future. At least I sure hope not!

[Narco]

agreed, the comment was made b/c you specifically stated civilian law enforcement and SWAt is exactly that. that being said i still think that patrol officers should train and use suppressive fire as the situation dictates.

[formerNOPD]

Perfect example of where a pistol caliber carbine would have been most useful...

[exdrip]

For those of you comparing Military/LE ratios....

My experience is limited...but I'm pretty sure the military doesn't use handguns as standard issue. In a quick response stressful situation its much easier to accurately shoot a rifle, rather than a handgun. As well as the fact that firefight situations in LE and Military are very different. But like I said...my experience is limited :)

[Norman]

Perfect example of where a pistol caliber carbine would have been most useful...

You think that a pistol calliber carbine would served better than a .223 M4 or a 12 ga. Shotgun?:confused:

[GGG]

Perfect example of where a pistol caliber carbine would have been most useful...


A pistol caliber carbine does have some advantages, but I am not sure I see it here. I am not going back to re-read the report, but I seem to remember that the major failure was poor penetration of most of the rounds, pistol and rifle. The subject was behind cover, so many rounds penetrated the cover before striking him, thus expending a great deal of energy first. There was a reference to an expanded pistol round 1" deep in the soft tissue. If it hits something hard first, it will flatten and expand but not have enough energy left to penetrate deeply.

A pistol caliber carbine only gains a few hundred (if that much) FPS of velocity over a pistol. That is not enough energy gain to defeat most cover. If you want to put people down on the other side of a car, then start with a .308 and go up rom there.

[Woofdog]

The reality is that there IS a difference between military combat firing and LE firing.

Anyone who disputes this has never served in both camps.

[formerNOPD]

Yes, the pistol caliber carbines would have given a slight advantage over the handguns with better shot placement than the handguns, and more capacity than the shotgun. Is is better? Not necessarily. The point of this exercise is to concentrate more on shot placement than the tool being used. Korean war vets have told me that the down jackets that the chinese used in korea would often stop .45 ball rounds from 1911s. I find it interesting that this guy had a down jacket on and some of the pistol rounds did not penetrate.

[Mitchell_in_CT]

Korean war vets have told me that the down jackets that the chinese used in korea would often stop .45 ball rounds from 1911s. I find it interesting that this guy had a down jacket on and some of the pistol rounds did not penetrate.


What the vet didn't tell you (and probably didn't know) is that the North Korean army (and in WWII the Imperial Japanese Army...and the Nazis) made extensive use of "go-pills" so that their soldiers would be able to fight longer and harder, and shrug off wounds to the point of being the walking dead.

The .45 round may have caused them to die, but unless he hit the brain, heart or spine, they died later, not right then...and that's no different from police dumping a magazine of whatever into a guy who keeps coming on and ends up rolling around on the ground with you as he tries to stab you to death even after the point the assailent should have died.

With just about any weapon short of a direct hit with OO Buck or a fire axe to the brainpan it really is hit or miss.

People are very hard to kill in general.

People are harder to kill when they are trying to kill YOU.

I don't find the 17% hit rate all that difficult to believe; however, I've heard stats that place OIS hit rates at 25%-33%...but that may be several years out of date, and was only related to the NYPD. Regardless, it just proves the point that in a gunfight people try not to get killed more than they try to kill the opponent - and that's not a bad thing.

Now...

I'd like to ask a question and take this thread away from the police & people who have shot someone v. everyone else love-fest that it was:

How many times do you encounter someone who wants to ESCAPE from you and is willing to use force to effect the escape (and if he kills you, well, that's just buisness...), vs How many times do you encounter someone who's express purpose is to KILL YOU?

Maybe I'm reading too much into this incident, but it seems to me that this guy wasn't trying to run away and firing to cover his escape; he was trying to engage and that also likely accounts for the low hit rate.

[zeplin]

35 years ago when I was stationed at Balboa, we would go to autopsies every weekday before lunch. Never bothered me. The photos from this PM made me queazy.

I've never been involved in a firefight so I wil keep my mouth shut except to say this, You never know how you will perform is a stressful situation until it happens. Hopefully our training will pay off and we will perform well.

Thanks again to all who have served protecting us here and abroad.

[formerNOPD]

What the vet didn't tell you (and probably didn't know) is that the North Korean army (and in WWII the Imperial Japanese Army...and the Nazis) made extensive use of "go-pills" so that their soldiers would be able to fight longer and harder, and shrug off wounds to the point of being the walking dead.

The .45 round may have caused them to die, but unless he hit the brain, heart or spine, they died later, not right then...and that's no different from police dumping a magazine of whatever into a guy who keeps coming on and ends up rolling around on the ground with you as he tries to stab you to death even after the point the assailent should have died.

With just about any weapon short of a direct hit with OO Buck or a fire axe to the brainpan it really is hit or miss.

People are very hard to kill in general.

People are harder to kill when they are trying to kill YOU.

I don't find the 17% hit rate all that difficult to believe; however, I've heard stats that place OIS hit rates at 25%-33%...but that may be several years out of date, and was only related to the NYPD. Regardless, it just proves the point that in a gunfight people try not to get killed more than they try to kill the opponent - and that's not a bad thing.

Now...

I'd like to ask a question and take this thread away from the police & people who have shot someone v. everyone else love-fest that it was:

How many times do you encounter someone who wants to ESCAPE from you and is willing to use force to effect the escape (and if he kills you, well, that's just buisness...), vs How many times do you encounter someone who's express purpose is to KILL YOU?

Maybe I'm reading too much into this incident, but it seems to me that this guy wasn't trying to run away and firing to cover his escape; he was trying to engage and that also likely accounts for the low hit rate.

The point is shot placement, which I stated and you restated.