Open Carry

[Sarkis]

West Valley City is a big enough city that it is obvious open carrying is going to cause problems, I didn't know it was legal to open carry in West Valley, or anywhere in Salt Lake County for that matter.

http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_9619863?source=rss

West Valley City
Gun toters want cops to holster harassment <-----Very annoying title.
By Mar�*a Villaseñor
The Salt Lake Tribune
Article Last Updated: 06/18/2008 01:32:14 AM MDT

WEST VALLEY CITY - With his Smith & Wesson .40-caliber semi-automatic holstered on his right hip, Travis Deveraux addressed the mayor and City Council on Tuesday.
Deveraux says he has been harassed by West Valley City police for carrying that gun and treated like a criminal.
"A criminal does not want [police] attention, and they will not openly carry a gun," Deveraux said.
With 10 other gun-toting civilians - who came from as far as Bountiful, Santaquin and Lehi - to support him, Deveraux told the council that their police department has consistently overreacted to his gun carrying. And in one occasion last year, he said, the police officers violated his civil rights.
Deveraux said he was walking around his neighborhood to exercise last December, when he was stopped by a Granite School District officer and "informed that if I touched my gun, I would be killed." The officer called West Valley City Police Department, Deveraux said, three squad cars arrived, and he was detained and his gun taken from him - then, after a few minutes, he was released.
Those were violations of his federal and state constitutional rights, said the Swede who became an American citizen this January.
And they are civil rights abuses that he has only encountered in West Valley City, Deveraux said.
"I don't blame them for being
a little bit extra careful," he said, noting that the crime rate is high in Utah's second largest city, "but there's a line they crossed between being a little bit careful and a little bit too careful."
Assistant Police Chief Craig Black said he hadn't been aware of the incident involving Deveraux until hearing about it at the City Council meeting. He said there would be a review of the case by the professional standards board to determined what happened.
Matt Murray, of North Salt Lake, said he has never been bothered by any police officers for openly carrying his gun. Kevin Jensen, of Santaquin, said he has had a few police encounters that were "very professional . . . they just want to make sure you're not a nutcase." But Lehi resident Jeramiah McDonald said he has had problems similar to Deveraux's.
McDonald said that because he is only 19, he can't apply for a concealed-weapons permit and his only option is to openly carry his guns.
Because he felt police officers violated his civil rights, McDonald filed a lawsuit.
Deveraux said he doesn't want to sue anyone, or get an officer fired or fined. He wants West Valley City officers to be trained, or receive more training on gun rights.
Mayor Dennis Nordfelt encouraged Deveraux to file a complaint with the professional standards review board, which oversees any resident problems with the police department.
Black said his officers are trained on gun laws.
mariav@sltrib.com

[opskmallory]

West Valley City is a big enough city that it is obvious open carrying is going to cause problems, I didn't know it was legal to open carry in West Valley, or anywhere in Salt Lake County for that matter.

http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_9619863?source=rss

West Valley City
Gun toters want cops to holster harassment <-----Very annoying title.
By Mar�*a Villaseñor
The Salt Lake Tribune
Article Last Updated: 06/18/2008 01:32:14 AM MDT

WEST VALLEY CITY - With his Smith & Wesson .40-caliber semi-automatic holstered on his right hip, Travis Deveraux addressed the mayor and City Council on Tuesday.
Deveraux says he has been harassed by West Valley City police for carrying that gun and treated like a criminal.
"A criminal does not want [police] attention, and they will not openly carry a gun," Deveraux said.
With 10 other gun-toting civilians - who came from as far as Bountiful, Santaquin and Lehi - to support him, Deveraux told the council that their police department has consistently overreacted to his gun carrying. And in one occasion last year, he said, the police officers violated his civil rights.
Deveraux said he was walking around his neighborhood to exercise last December, when he was stopped by a Granite School District officer and "informed that if I touched my gun, I would be killed." The officer called West Valley City Police Department, Deveraux said, three squad cars arrived, and he was detained and his gun taken from him - then, after a few minutes, he was released.
Those were violations of his federal and state constitutional rights, said the Swede who became an American citizen this January.
And they are civil rights abuses that he has only encountered in West Valley City, Deveraux said.
"I don't blame them for being
a little bit extra careful," he said, noting that the crime rate is high in Utah's second largest city, "but there's a line they crossed between being a little bit careful and a little bit too careful."
Assistant Police Chief Craig Black said he hadn't been aware of the incident involving Deveraux until hearing about it at the City Council meeting. He said there would be a review of the case by the professional standards board to determined what happened.
Matt Murray, of North Salt Lake, said he has never been bothered by any police officers for openly carrying his gun. Kevin Jensen, of Santaquin, said he has had a few police encounters that were "very professional . . . they just want to make sure you're not a nutcase." But Lehi resident Jeramiah McDonald said he has had problems similar to Deveraux's.
McDonald said that because he is only 19, he can't apply for a concealed-weapons permit and his only option is to openly carry his guns.
Because he felt police officers violated his civil rights, McDonald filed a lawsuit.
Deveraux said he doesn't want to sue anyone, or get an officer fired or fined. He wants West Valley City officers to be trained, or receive more training on gun rights.
Mayor Dennis Nordfelt encouraged Deveraux to file a complaint with the professional standards review board, which oversees any resident problems with the police department.
Black said his officers are trained on gun laws.
mariav@sltrib.com


It's legal to open carry anywhere in the State, as long as the gun does not meet the legal definition of "loaded" which means the weapon can be fired with a single mechanical motion (i.e., chamber is loaded; all you need to do is pull the trigger).

While I'm a huge proponent of 2nd amendment, I think that openly carrying is dumb for a whole list of reasons. Just because you have "the right" to open carry, doesn't mean you A) Should open carry B) Need to open carry and/or C) Have the brains and training to open carry.

Especially in WVC of all places. Can we say "TARGET"?

[Sarkis]

Changed my position in what I wrote here.

[traffic168]

I also agree with the second amendment but if the open carry of firearms was the answer all sworn officers would be encouraged to carry in the open. Our department has a policy requiring that our firearm be concealed while in plain clothes. They recognize that not only in this day and age a visible firearm causes panic but that if something is going to go down you are the first one to be executed by the suspect. Most of the open carry guys are decent citizens but we have a few that also carry handcuffs and drive unmarked police type cars. These are the guys that are making the news and giving the others a bad name.

[utoc-45-44]

"I also agree with the second amendment but if the open carry of firearms was the answer all sworn officers would be encouraged to carry in the open. Our department has a policy requiring that our firearm be concealed while in plain clothes."

================================================== =======

Well, the 2nd Amendment Right is JUST THAT. It's a RIGHT and a firearm CAN be carried WITHOUT a CFP.

A CFP is a PRIVILEGE by the State/Government.

There are ADULTS out there that DON'T want the Governments involvement more than neccesary in their lives and/or also DON'T qualify for the CFP age which is USUALLY 21 in the States over all can then carry OPENLY a firearm.

These Adults can than OC from the age 18-21 if they DON'T have a felony CONVICTION/DOMESTIC VIOLENCE on their record.

LEO's are PAID to do their duty. CITIZENS CAN do what a LEO can do as well to a certain extent.

IF more PEOPLE OC'ed the Society WOULD be a better place and CRIMINALS would think twice to use their firearms.


Could you just Imagine if a Robber/Criminal walked into a gas station, bank or even a Place like Trolley Square and saw 5-10+ people OCing. Would that criminal think twice BEFORE engaging ????

I think so. Before he could even fire of 1 or 2 rounds he/she would have 5+ rounds sent their way.

Remember a firearm is the LAST resort and NOT the 1st resort.

"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."
Robert A. Heinlein


When seconds counts the NATIONAL average response is 5-7 min.

LEO's, in my opinion, should be worried about the firearms that are ILLEGALLY carried in a concealed manner by Criminals.

A person that DO OC has NOTHING to hide and is WELL aware of that they may be approach by a LEO. The CRIMINAL however DOES NOT want an UNNECCESARY attention and will NOT OC.

Wouldn't it be nice to see people that OC and know that you have "Instant" back up or help.

And for the OCers that carry cuffs can do so per Utah code 77-7-3, to do a CITIZENS arrest, BUT cannot use DEADLY force while doing so UNLESS under command by a LEO per 77-7-7. " Deadly force may be used only as provided in Section 76-2-404."

"76-2-404. Peace officer's use of deadly force.
(1) A peace officer, or any person acting by his command in his aid and assistance, is justified in using deadly force"

http://le.utah.gov/~code/TITLE77/htm/77_07_000700.htm

http://le.utah.gov/~code/TITLE76/htm/76_02_040400.htm

As far a "cruisers" goes...they are cheap, very reliable and also very comfortable to drive/ride

Just my .40

TJ

[KenW.]

You're allowed to carry openly; but should you?
It creates more trouble than its worth.

[thx997303]

Does it? I am personally not old enough to get a CCP, but would not feel comfortable without my sidearm. Should I not be afforded the same ability of self defense as someone over 21?

I have been in altercations which I tried very hard to avoid, where it would have escalated to a fight, had I not been carrying my side arm.

Open carry has a deterrent effect on your average criminal IMO. While I concede that there are criminals out there who would target you because of your openly carried side arm, they are the same criminals that would target LE because they are LE.

I myself, do not carry any more than my sidearm and a spare mag. Mostly in case the one mag malfunctions.

If LEOs could respond in a split second, without me calling them, then I would rely on LE.

But it is not the job of LE to protect individual citizens. As I understand it.

And I would rather have the person protecting my life, to have some stock in the outcome. There's only one person on earth with that much interest. Me.

ETA: And I don't want you to think I don't appreciate our Law enforcement agencies,and officers. I appreciate everything you do.

[KenW.]

In some areas (Arizona, for one) open carry is pretty commonplace. In areas where it is not so common, go ahead if you want to withstand scrutiny of passesrby, moms shooing their kids away, store clerks and security gaurds following you around, police being called on you, explaining the law to all those around you, misconceptions about gun-free areas, etc, ad infinitum.

If you are willing to put up with that; go for it. I may be one of the cops making contact with one such as yourself. In that case you'd be fortunate.
Other cops may speak with you from the low ready. They haven't learned that criminals don't normaly use holsters or carry openly; inviting the scrutiny that citisens do.

[utoc-45-44]

You're allowed to carry openly; but should you?
It creates more trouble than its worth.

People according to the 1st Amendment right has the Right to speak BUT why should they ? It just creates MORE hassle/trouble than it's worth.

When officers DO understand the legality of OCing they will pretty much in ignore the situation other than just maybe drive by and scope out the "subject" and see how he/she is behaving and leave. Or possibly just have a quick chat and "shoot" the breeze (NO PUN INTENDED) so to speak.

There is NO NEED TO PULL GUNS and ESCALATE the situtation further by applying DEADLY FORCE by pointing a gun at a "subject" that is PEACEABLY minding his/her own business.

Look at Virgina Dispatchers as an example. They pretty much tell anybody that calls in a MWAG ( Man With A Gun ) that it's legal and that there is nothing that can be done because it's legal to OC.

The dispatcher states that unless the "subjects" BEHAVIOR changes nothing is going to be done or rather can be done.

Please remember that...a LEO is too heavy to carry around all the time:D

Per U.S SUPREME COURT..."the Supreme Court STATED about the responsibility of police for the security of your family and loved ones is "You, and only you, are responsible for your security and the security of your family and loved ones. That was the essence of a U.S. Supreme Court decision in the early 1980's when they ruled that the police do not have a duty to protect you as an individual, but to protect society as a whole."

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1976377/posts


"“the government and its agents are under no general duty to provide public services,
such as police protection, to any particular individual citizen.” Warren v. District of Columbia,
444 A.2d 1,4 (D.C. 1981)."

THAT'S why people OC that are NOT of AGE per STATE/GOVERMENT statue to do so UNDER the age of 21.

I OC due to weather factor. I don't want layers over me in 90+ degrees.

I want to be able to wear a nice shirt and pants an NOT have to worry about a jacket or another layer. State Law says we are fine than you should be fine with it.

[officerdotcomm]

All:

I've received two complaints about this thread already. Keep it civil. No name calling. I'm leaving it as it is for now but "voice" your opinions politely or the thread will get yanked.

Now my opinion (for what it's worth since I don't live in Utah): I KNOW that openly carrying can cause a lot of grief and aggravation. More than it's worth? I don't think so. I believe that our country traveled too far down the gun control path so that now when we see a gun we get freaked out. It's just another tool that, if misused, CAN kill you. But it won't all of its own accord - anymore than that hammer on the carpenter's belt will. I have no issue with open carry -it just takes a bit of getting used to.

[utoc-45-44]

In some areas (Arizona, for one) open carry is pretty commonplace. In areas where it is not so common, go ahead if you want to withstand scrutiny of passesrby, moms shooing their kids away, store clerks and security gaurds following you around, police being called on you, explaining the law to all those around you, misconceptions about gun-free areas, etc, ad infinitum.

If you are willing to put up with that; go for it. I may be one of the cops making contact with one such as yourself. In that case you'd be fortunate.
Other cops may speak with you from the low ready. They haven't learned that criminals don't normaly use holsters or carry openly; inviting the scrutiny that citisens do.

KenW, you bring up a valid and good point.
"criminals don't normaly use holsters or carry openly". Per an FBI investigation and research...CRIMINALS don't.

We want the "other cops" to be educated and understand the legality. Low ready is still not really acceptable to me either. Hold the pistol in your hand BEHIND the leg not showing it. It's still faster accessible. Low ready is still deadly force. And since the OCer has the firearm in the holster PEACEABLY, escalation is NOT neccessary. Just approach the "subject" in a relaxed but alerted state. Kinda how Officers Peck, Arrington and Crandall did to the "subject" at Albertsons on 35th & 36th. They were smiling, relaxing, creating a comfortable atmosphere, yet they were on alert. They "dissarmed" the whole store so to speak by their PROFESSIONALISM. We need more of them around.:)

TJ

[czechrm]

I am personally a "pants on = gun on" kinda guy, but for the reasons stated here, I keep it concealed. There is no point in showing it off to everyone, and if the occasion arises, it's there if I need it.

[thx997303]

I believe that there is a certain "deterrent" effect. Though some people argue that this is not true, unfortunately there will never be statistics supporting it one way or the other, as you will never know if you "almost" got mugged but they decided against it because of your sidearm.

And for me, I'm also pants on=gun on kind a guy. Though for me there really is a point to wearing it openly. It's the only legal way for me to carry, due to age.

And since I'm not a criminal, I care about the laws.

[thx997303]

I apologize, Double post.

[KenW.]

I'd encourage everyone who carries openly to get some weapon retention training.

[utoc-45-44]

I'd encourage everyone who carries openly to get some weapon retention training.

I do agree with you KenW.

I would NOT like to be hurt/killed with my own firearm.

UNFORTUNATELY enough we do know that this has happened to LEO's out there. I have yet to hear that it has happpened to "civilian".

We all need more "training" in many "normal" things in life. Wether that is to be a better driver, parent, spouse, etc.


TJ

[thx997303]

Agreed, those who Open carry, such as myself, should get weapon retention training.

Unfortunately for the one friend of mine who thought that it was a "joke" to touch my gun, I have that sort of training.

[Sarkis]

utoc-45-44,

You bring up some very valid points that I did not consider when I started this thread.

In this day and age in Salt Lake county though, I don't think it is something I would do, and I think amongst many people it will just cause panic and insecurity.

[utoc-45-44]

utoc-45-44,

You bring up some very valid points that I did not consider when I started this thread.

In this day and age in Salt Lake county though, I don't think it is something I would do, and I think amongst many people it will just cause panic and insecurity.

it will just cause panic and insecurity.

I have not seen this among "civilians" but more among LEO's when they approach

One time as I was @ Sweet Tomatoes over on 78th with my wife, a lady came over and said that she saw me with my "sidearm". She was at the restaurant with her daughter and family. She went on to say the her daughter stated that she felt safe seeing that I carried.

Another time I was at WVC Lowes and a man came up to me and said that he felt safer with me "packing" and that I could made a difference in the situation warranted so.

People are more curious about the firearm than you would think. Do it and you will be surprised. Just make sure that you have Titles, codes and statues to back you up so to speak.

There are some very useful ones and SIMPLE ones.

76-10-500 Uniform Code

"a local authority or state entity may not enact or enforce any ordinance, regulation, or rule pertaining to firearms"

76-10-505

Carrying loaded firearm in vehicle or on street.
(1) Unless otherwise authorized by law, a person may not carry a loaded firearm:
(a) in or on a vehicle;
(b) on any public street; or
(c) in a posted prohibited area.
(2) A violation of this section is a class B misdemeanor.

76-10-502

Pistols and revolvers shall also be deemed to be loaded when an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile is in a position whereby the manual operation of any mechanism once would cause the unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile to be fired.


76-10-504

(b) a person without a valid concealed firearm permit who carries a concealed dangerous weapon which is a firearm and that contains no ammunition is guilty of a class B misdemeanor, but if the firearm contains ammunition the person is guilty of a class A misdemeanor.

76-10-509.4. Prohibition of possession of certain weapons by minors.
(1) A minor under 18 years of age may not possess a handgun.


76-10-523 (tells that permit holders are weapons laws exempt)

76-10-523. Persons exempt from weapons laws.
(2) The provisions of Subsections 76-10-504(1)(a), (1)(b), and Section 76-10-505 do not apply to any person to whom a permit to carry a concealed firearm has been issued:
(a) pursuant to Section 53-5-704; or
(b) by another state or county.

-----------

These are some good ones and it usually helps to have them printed somehow or just VERY well memorized. Maybe even write some of them down on a piece of paper when you speak with the individual and I most commonly leave my Ph# for future Q's. I also direct them to www.opencarry.org so the the person can research to.

Fear is just LACK of KNOWLEDGE.


Sorry about the rant.

TJ

[ProtectedBy9mm]

I'd encourage everyone who carries openly to get some weapon retention training.


I agree with you 100%. Retention training should be a must. Having said that, I would like to add my .02 to this thread:

I personally feel, as a civilian who Openly Carries: that we just want the opportunity to have a positive encounter with LEO. I personally would not take offense to a LEO questioning me about my OCing. I understand that LEOs job is to protect and keep the peace. He's scanning the area and sees me with a gun and no badge?! of course LEO is going to be suspicious. It is his natural instinct to worry and make sure everyone is safe and within the law.

I am only concerned that Open Carrying of a firearm (Within the law) is frowned on by (some, no all) LEOs.

In conclusion: I think that if respect and knowledge of the law is shown, it can make the difference between a positive or negative LEO encounter; concerning MWAG. but i also feel that the respect has to be mutual 50/50.

I am an American. I was born here and have lived all my life here, so far:
Thank you to all Law Enforcement Officers that risk your lives for us everyday to make sure we are safe and the laws of our WONDERFUL land are kept.