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xraodcop
03-30-2008, 08:52 PM
http://www.dailynews.com/breakingnews/ci_8741438

ticle Last Updated: 03/29/2008 11:38:27 AM PDT


A female police officer has been accepted into the Police Department's SWAT training program that could make her the first woman to join the elite group.

Jennifer Grasso, 36, is one of 13 officers selected for spots in the department's 12-week training school, which is scheduled to begin on Monday, according to an internal department e-mail quoted in a published report.

A confidential report made public earlier this month said a panel of law enforcement experts sought changes in SWAT testing to make the process more open to women.

Police Chief William Bratton has not discussed the details of the new selection criteria until the department's civilian oversight commission is briefed on them.

deputy x 2
03-30-2008, 10:50 PM
A confidential report made public earlier this month said a panel of law enforcement experts sought changes in SWAT testing to make the process more open to women.

Police Chief William Bratton has not discussed the details of the new selection criteria until the department's civilian oversight commission is briefed on them.

Good for her!

Hopefully they didn't change anything. SWAT is an elite unit and ALL members need the same abilities male or female.

SOI
03-30-2008, 11:56 PM
Good for her!

Hopefully they didn't change anything. SWAT is an elite unit and ALL members need the same abilities male or female.

Unfortunately they did change a whole lot to get her in there.



http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/...,3865857.story

Would you rather have an elite fighting force made up of the best cops, or of officers who 'look like L.A.'?

By Robert C.J. Parry
March 16, 2008

On a Sunday afternoon in the summer of 2005, Jose Peña fueled himself with cocaine and grabbed a 9-millimeter pistol. Waving the gun at the head of his 19-month-old daughter, Suzie, he told the LAPD officers who arrived at the scene that he was Tony Montana -- the character played by Al Pacino in "Scarface" -- and that he was going to kill his daughter and himself. He'd already shot at her sister and at the police, so the threat was believable.

The situation was straightforward: If an LAPD SWAT crisis negotiator couldn't dispel Peña's narcotic fantasies, the little girl's life would rest with a SWAT rescue team's ability to cross a 50-foot alley, access the building, find and enter the room he was in and save Suzie before Peña pulled the trigger.

Now imagine for a moment that you were in Suzie Peña's position. Would you want the police SWAT team coming through the door to be the best of the best -- the toughest, most highly trained, most elite tacticians in the Los Angeles Police Department -- or would you want the team to "look like L.A."? Would you want rescuers who had not lost a hostage in three decades, or would you want a team with heartwarming, multicultural diversity?

The answer is pretty obvious, no? You'd want the best. That's what Suzie got, and even so, the results were tragic. According to the L.A. district attorney's office, Jose Peña emerged from the building and a gunfight ensued. When Peña retreated to his office, four SWAT officers crossed the alley in a matter of seconds, entered the building, took fire through the walls -- fire that struck one officer -- and entered Peña's office. There, they exchanged more shots with the gunman, who was standing behind a desk with Suzie. In the chaos, both Jose and Suzie Peña were killed.

Suzie is the only hostage ever lost by LAPD SWAT during its 35 years.

Shortly after her death, Police Chief William J. Bratton appointed a board of inquiry to examine the incident. Its mission, he said, was to investigate the officers' tactics and other factors in the shooting. "For the safety of the public and officers, we need to understand intimately what transpired in that incident," he said at the time.

In fact, the board did nothing of the sort. None of the SWAT officers from the Peña shooting were even interviewed by the panel, according to multiple sources. Indeed, the board's eight members included fewer tactical experts (one) than attorneys (three). In its final report, the board acknowledged that it had been "ultimately precluded from gaining a full and complete understanding of what transpired in Peña until after this report was finalized."

What's more, Assistant Chief Sharon Papa privately promised the team shortly after the incident that the report would be aired openly, according to officers who were present. That didn't happen either. The final report -- completed 15 months ago -- has not been released. Many senior department officials have never seen it, and Times reporters have repeatedly requested it but have been turned down. I received a copy earlier this month from a source.

The report shows that instead of fulfilling Bratton's promises, the board used the Peña case (with Bratton's encouragement) as a way to push for a series of politically correct changes within SWAT -- changes that many cops believe will have absolutely no benefit and that they believe will endanger the lives of citizens and cops alike.

From the start -- before the panel examined any evidence -- Bratton made it clear that increasing SWAT's diversity was particularly important to him. In November 2005, he privately addressed the board about his goals for their inquiry. The final report quotes him: "I'm looking to create change within SWAT. The qualifications to get in are stringent. But are they too stringent? There are no women and few African Americans.... Are there artificial barriers for getting into SWAT that the 'good old boys' network has maintained?"

Bratton's assertion that SWAT has few African Americans is not accurate. Eight of the 63 SWAT members are black, sources say, -- even after the death of Officer Randal Simmons on Feb. 7. That's 12.6% in a department that is 12% African American.

Nevertheless, in keeping with Bratton's wishes, the final report devotes substantial space to how to bring in female and black officers. "The absence of women ... and the low number of African Americans in SWAT should be addressed and dealt with, and the membership of SWAT should be reflective of the community," the report says, although it offers no qualitative or quantitative evidence that this change would save a single life or lead to a single suspect's apprehension. The unit, the report says, has become "insular, self-referential and resistant to change."

The report goes on to say that "there is no task in SWAT that a woman could not perform" and that the selection criteria has "underemphasized negotiating skills, patience, empathy and flexibility while overemphasizing physical prowess and tactical acumen."

But SWAT officers who have actually entered houses to rescue hostages from killers (as they did Feb. 7 in Winnetka, resulting in the death of Simmonsand the wounding of Officer James Veenstra) say there is no such thing as overemphasizing tactical acumen or physical prowess for such assignments.


Yes, they say, there are probably women on the force who could and should be admitted to SWAT, but they should be required to meet the same standards as other applicants and should be chosen for skill, not for diversity. The reality, SWAT members say, is that the standards for tactical success apply to everyone equally. Upper-body strength is vital to holding a 12-pound rifle stone-steady to hit a deranged killer while avoiding his hostage in a whirlwind of chaos.

In general, the final board report offers little or no persuasive evidence as to why SWAT should change. "SWAT performs in a disciplined and exemplary manner consistent with its fine reputation," the report acknowledges. "It has been and remains a source of great pride within the LAPD."

In fact, according to the report itself, out of 3,771 missions SWAT has performed from 1972 to 2005, suspects have been apprehended without any "untoward" incident in 83% of the cases. (The report does not define "untoward.") It notes that SWAT members have killed a suspect only 31 times in 33 years -- that's less than 1% of all engagements, often with the city's most deranged and violent criminals.

What's more, SWAT has lost only one hostage -- Suzie Peña -- and the way to ensure it doesn't happen again is to maintain and raise standards, not to lower them out of political correctness.

None of that matters, though, to the brass. "Bratton wants a woman on SWAT regardless of whether she's 110 pounds soaking wet and completely incapable of pulling 200 pounds of Jimmy Veenstra and his gear out of a house in the middle of a gunfight," said one officer who survived the Winnetka shootout in which Veenstra was extracted by his teammates while under fire.


Based on the findings of the report, the LAPD has just instituted a new selection process for SWAT, according to a SWAT veteran who helped in the redesign. Instead of picking cops on the basis of their ability to handle weapons and stress, the new standards specifically exclude video-based shooting simulator evaluations and "Hogan's Alley," a daunting series of pop-up targets representing armed crooks and hostages. A simulated raid with flash-bang devices that previously disqualified many candidates who accidentally shot the "hostage" is also gone.

The new test's only physical challenges are a modest physical fitness qualification and a modified obstacle course. "My preteen daughter could pass that," one officer said. Applicants' scores will now largely come from an oral interview conducted by non-SWAT and non-LAPD supervisors. In essence, the test is largely subjective.

Another coming change that SWAT officers criticize is one that would allow officers from anywhere in the department to apply to SWAT, rather than limiting it (as it has historically been limited) to officers from the elite Metropolitan Division. SWAT had argued to the board that continued selection from Metro was "a nearly fail-safe way to select the best of the best," and the final board report acknowledged that using only applicants from Metro "has produced remarkable cohesion, consistency, mutual trust and commonality of outlook."

But the board of inquiry ultimately claimed that including people from other divisions "could bring a wider perspective and greater gender and racial diversity." So the plan to broaden the pool of applicants is expected to go into effect next year.

There are a variety of innocuous recommendations in the board report, such as improvements in risk management, trend analysis and data analysis. The report calls for new accountability measures, including "Compstat-like accountability." (Compstat is Bratton's signature system for tracking crime trends.) The report also recommends providing all personnel with take-home cars, something the team has requested for years.

But it is the change in the selection process and the opening up of SWAT to applicants from outside Metro that have motivated SWAT officers' wives to launch an unusual e-mail campaign directed at Bratton and Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa, stating in part: "We are concerned with the safety of our husbands ... if they are expected to go into these highly dangerous situations with someone who got in under a compromised standard."

The report says, "SWAT culture and insularity pose a certain danger to the LAPD and the Los Angeles community as a whole." But the report is based on misconceptions.

SWAT is not a lily-white redoubt of old prejudices. Simmons and Veenstra (who is of Asian ancestry) illustrate this. Suzie Peña's attempted rescuers had names like Perez, Sanchez and Gallegos. Bratton may not know this; at the annual SWAT dinner, I saw him come in and talk to a couple of senior managers and deputy chiefs for 30 minutes and then leave, having barely acknowledged the officers -- black, white, Latino or otherwise. That evening, he forfeited his last chance to talk to Simmons, who died 10 days later.

SWAT is too important to this city to be weakened in the name of political correctness. Unless the Police Commission or other officials act, the LAPD will make social experimentation a higher priority than tactical excellence.

Robert C.J. Parry is a businessman working on a book about his experiences in the Army National Guard in Iraq.

deputy x 2
03-31-2008, 12:27 AM
Truly sad.

SWAT members should be the best of the best. A house is can only withstand the storm if it is built on a good foundation.

An oral? Judged by non SWAT and non LAPD supervisors?

LA DEP
03-31-2008, 12:42 AM
They lowered the standards.....ALOT......

One of several reasons that Bratton is becoming as hated as Parks was.....never thought I would see that day......

Smurfette_76
03-31-2008, 12:47 AM
Give the girl a chance. Just because HE lowered the standards doesn't mean that she can't perform beyond them and as well as the men.

Now, having said that...not me. I wouldn't do it. Wanting to be SWAT wouldn't be worth putting up with a bunch of men that don't want me there. She could be as good as them if not better, but I don't think they'll ever cut her some slack. It matters very little if she can do the job physically because IMHO, that's still very much a good ole boys club and they don't want the girls there. Fair? Doesn't matter...fair or not, I think it's the reality.

deputy x 2
03-31-2008, 12:58 AM
Give the girl a chance. Just because HE lowered the standards doesn't mean that she can't perform beyond them and as well as the men.

Now, having said that...not me. I wouldn't do it. Wanting to be SWAT wouldn't be worth putting up with a bunch of men that don't want me there. She could be as good as them if not better, but I don't think they'll ever cut her some slack. It matters very little if she can do the job physically because IMHO, that's still very much a good ole boys club and they don't want the girls there. Fair? Doesn't matter...fair or not, I think it's the reality.

She's fighting an uphill battle. No matter how capable she is, that "lower standards" will always be held over her head.

Our SWAT/SRU team has only had three females. (ALL CAPABLE) No standards were lowered and they were treated like one of the guys. As long as you can hold your own...the guys don't have a problem.

LA DEP
03-31-2008, 12:58 AM
Give the girl a chance. Just because HE lowered the standards doesn't mean that she can't perform beyond them and as well as the men.

Now, having said that...not me. I wouldn't do it. Wanting to be SWAT wouldn't be worth putting up with a bunch of men that don't want me there. She could be as good as them if not better, but I don't think they'll ever cut her some slack. It matters very little if she can do the job physically because IMHO, that's still very much a good ole boys club and they don't want the girls there. Fair? Doesn't matter...fair or not, I think it's the reality.

I would be more than happy to give any Officer a chance IF they passed the standards as they originally stood........a large chunk of the MALE candidates failed selection,,,,the standards are there for a reason....Most people cant pass the tests (I know I cant,,,,,and SEB was one of my dream jobs when I started.....my career path has taken me elsewhere.....I'm not going to sit and whine about the standards being too high)

LASD SEB/SWT has female Deputies....that passed all of the tests.....there is even one over at ESD (search and rescue),,,,passed even harder tests....

deputy x 2
03-31-2008, 01:00 AM
I would be more than happy to give any Officer a chance IF they passed the standards as they originally stood........a large chunk of the MALE candidates failed selection,,,,the standards are there for a reason....Most people cant pass the tests (I know I cant,,,,,and SEB was one of my dream jobs when I started.....my career path has taken me elsewhere.....I'm not going to sit and whine about the standards being too high)

LASD SEB/SWT has female Deputies....that passed all of the tests.....there is even one over at ESD (search and rescue),,,,passed even harder tests....

I agree 100%.

Smurfette_76
03-31-2008, 01:06 AM
That's what I said. Just because standards are lowered doesn't mean she can't still hold her own with the men. A standard is merely what is required, not necessarily what level you perform.

I agree however, that it doesn't matter if she is as good as [fill in the blank] that lowered standard will always be what others see.

Chit2001
03-31-2008, 01:48 AM
.............

LA DEP
03-31-2008, 01:57 AM
That's what I said. Just because standards are lowered doesn't mean she can't still hold her own with the men. A standard is merely what is required, not necessarily what level you perform.

I agree however, that it doesn't matter if she is as good as [fill in the blank] that lowered standard will always be what others see.

smurfette,

If she had made it in BEFORE this bruhaha, then she probably would have been ok.....now, she could be supergirl, and few will accept that she would have passed anyway.....

SWAT in LA is no joke.....one of the reasons that they have lost ONE in the entire time of the team is because of the standards, and the amount of training they do.....LASD has also only lost one (that I know of) during an entry.....we have lost 1-2 others in non-entry confrontations.......not for a lack of trying on the suspects' part though.....

kansaslawdog31
03-31-2008, 02:42 AM
This is from the LA Times on March 29th...


LOS ANGELES, CA – A highly regarded female police officer has been accepted into the training program for the Los Angeles Police Department’s SWAT unit, clearing a major hurdle toward becoming the first woman officer to join the elite, insular group since its formation more than 35 years ago.

Jennifer Grasso, 36, is one of 13 LAPD officers selected for spots in the department’s 12-week training school, which is scheduled to begin on Monday, according to an internal LAPD email obtained by The Times.

Grasso and the rest of the hopefuls were chosen amid controversy over a newly devised regimen that did away with many grueling endurance tests and exacting simulation exercises that had been used to pre-qualify candidates for Special Weapons and Tactics Team training in the past. The new selection criteria angered many current SWAT officers, who accused Police Chief William J. Bratton and his command staff of watering down the process in order to make it easier for a woman to join the demanding unit, which specializes in resolving standoffs with barricaded suspects and other high-risk operations.

But it appears Grasso has avoided the uncomfortable prospect of coming into SWAT school under a cloud of suspicion. Several SWAT officers, who spoke on the condition that their names not be used because they are not authorized to discuss the matter, said they continue to harbor doubts about the new tests, but are impressed with Grasso and would welcome her onto the team.

“Physically, she’s a dynamo and tactically she’s very solid,” said one SWAT veteran. “She’d be a good selection.”

Grasso declined to be interviewed, but her supervisor, Sgt. Andrea Balter, said Grasso ranks as one of the most impressive officers in C Platoon, another specialized unit in the department’s Metro Division that is often deployed to quell violent crime. Few in the unit make more arrests than Grasso, who, with her partner, is known particularly for gun seizures, Balter said.

“I can’t sing her praises nearly enough,” said Balter. “She is completely committed to the community - the city - and to putting bad guys in jail.”

Grasso won the hard-earned praise of current SWAT officers in large part because of her strong performance during tryouts last year. She was nearing acceptance to SWAT school when she badly injured her knee during one of the final tests on a Marine obstacle course at Camp Pendleton. If she had not proved her mettle then, several SWAT officers said, they would be more skeptical of Grasso’s abilities.

It was Grasso’s injury and similar ones suffered by her male counterparts that led department officials, in part, to question whether the punishing Marine courses were excessively arduous for vetting SWAT prospects. A panel of outside experts convened by Bratton to examine SWAT practices also pushed the department to change, concluding that the old tests were “over-emphasizing physical prowess and tactical acumen.”

The subsequent decision by Bratton and his commanders to amend the SWAT selection criteria set off strong protests by SWAT members, who said the tests were needed to determine whether an officer could handle the stress and demands of the job. The Police Protective League, which represents the department’s 9,300 rank-and-file officers, also intervened, accusing the department in an unfair labor practices claim of failing to consult the union before making the changes.

Keen to counter barbs this week by Bratton that the union has been more interested in protecting the status quo than in the rights of female officers, union President Tim Sands said Grasso is “very highly qualified and I wish her the best of luck.”

Bratton, who could not be reached for comment, and SWAT supervisors have refused to discuss the details of the new selection criteria until the department’s civilian oversight commission is briefed on them. Bratton has nonetheless made clear his displeasure that no woman has ever served in SWAT since its official formation in 1971, and his determination to bring an end to the remaining bastions of male dominance in the department before he departs.

This year, Grasso and the other SWAT applicants had to pass a long-standing physical fitness test that includes a three-mile run, sit-ups, push-ups, pull-ups and an obstacle course. They also underwent oral exams and background checks, according to department officials and current SWAT officers who had been briefed on the changes.

Admission to SWAT school, and even completion of the training, does not guarantee Grasso or other trainees one of the 60 places in the unit. Balter and others said there are reportedly only about six open spots; it is unclear whether the candidates will be winnowed or placed on a waiting list.

Grasso’s push to break into SWAT resonated with Nina Acosta, who in 1994 sued the LAPD, saying that she had been unfairly denied admission to the unit because of her gender. The department eventually agreed to let in Acosta, who at the time had the married name Damianakes, but she refused and resigned from the force altogether.

“It’s about time,” she said. “I hope the department supports her 100%. And I hope she has nerves of steel.”

Maybe someone from LAPD can comment on Officer Grasso, but from what I read she seems like she would have made it under the old standards. Personally, I don't care if your male or female, the only thing that matters to me is that you can do the job and can help me when the s**t hits the fan.

Just my 2 cents though.

LA Copper
03-31-2008, 10:51 AM
I spoke to a buddy of mine who is on our SWAT Team. He said she was really doing well on all the tests when she hurt her knee. From what he tells me, she is very qualified and would be an asset to the team. More power to her!

Berlioz
03-31-2008, 11:06 AM
Ive worked with her on a limited basis. I think she'll do very well in swat and be an asset.

gare442
03-31-2008, 12:09 PM
I'm sure a camera crew will follow her every-waking-moment and this will be turned into a "reality show.":mad:

Five-0fromSoCal
03-31-2008, 01:02 PM
I would be more than happy to give any Officer a chance IF they passed the standards as they originally stood........a large chunk of the MALE candidates failed selection,,,,the standards are there for a reason....Most people cant pass the tests (I know I cant,,,,,and SEB was one of my dream jobs when I started.....my career path has taken me elsewhere.....I'm not going to sit and whine about the standards being too high)

LASD SEB/SWT has female Deputies....that passed all of the tests.....there is even one over at ESD (search and rescue),,,,passed even harder tests....


You're right. We've had two females in ESD, which is a harder test than SWAT. Although, it's funny that I've never seen a female on the entry team, even though they've been on SWAT.

LA DEP
03-31-2008, 01:40 PM
You're right. We've had two females in ESD, which is a harder test than SWAT. Although, it's funny that I've never seen a female on the entry team, even though they've been on SWAT.

I know that at least one female that went to SEB was a K9 handler.....she has since promoted to Sgt.....

And your right,,,,I've never seen them doing entries.....

CUFFS137
03-31-2008, 04:53 PM
My team attempts to innoculate itself from the addition of any individual who cannot perform the tasks required of an effective tactical operator. We do this by including a 'task specific' obstical course in our selection process, and semi-annual PT qualification battery. There are heavy tasks associated with this course such as dragging a fully outfitted operator for a certain distance while in the midst of physical fatigue. This reflects a very real possible scenario on a SWAT deployment.
Anyone reguardless of race or gender, who cannot perform these tasks, are simply not physically up to the task of being a SWAT officer. By being 'task specific' this policy is completely logical, and legally defensable.

I have no doubt that LAPD SWAT has at least this much of a physical qualification test. That a politician undermines the unarguable, and proven logic of the existing standards of a SWAT team is a mistake which may very likely have tragic consequencecs.
If a weaker person is allowed onto a team, and is one day put into a position where he/she has to drag a fallen officer, or victim from a 'hot' area while under fire, and that officer is unable to move said officer or victim, or is too slow in doing so, what do you think will happen???
That operator, and probably the victim will recieve fire. The families of both should have a very lucrative civil case if it is subsequently revealed that the physical standards of that team were lowered to allow the weaker officer onto the team.

DOAcop38
03-31-2008, 05:39 PM
..so "HOW" is having a woman going to make SWAT better???? Is the SWAt team going to be "nicer"??? No. "friendlier"? No . "cuter"-aahhh,"no". It's NOY like women can't or couldn't apply for SWAT in the FIRSTplace !!! Most won't or don't becuase of the COMMITMENT-just like their male counterparts DON'T;SWAT is alot of hardwork,tedious hours and it isn't like you will get paid MORE,plus people who go into SWAT tend to stay for YRS,which doesn't exactly give you the opportunity to promote or enjoy those wonderful weekends and holidays off !!!

IT is just like when the former beast of a city council "person",Jackie Goldberg,DEMANDED that LAPD hire more female officers as it would "temper" the behavior of LAPD- it didn't.funny but in a society where sex is NO LONGER supposed to be an issue, we have people who STILL equate women and femininity as making things "nicer" and "softer"- and these are people in charge !!!( obviously they've NEVER been to a youth soccer league all girls team tournament ! Those 12 yr old girls are brutal,and one day they grow up to be young women ,but don't think that meanness goes away:D:eek:). I've seen women on TEAMs in So.Calif -they went out and made it just like anyone else,and I really don't think that the 1st women who really wants to be on LAPDs SWAt doesn't want to think she got there becuase they had NO CHOICE but take her ; its creating the same arguement that people who were against diversity have argued all along-that women and minorities always NEED a crutch or help and can't earn anything.........

Smurfette_76
03-31-2008, 05:48 PM
smurfette,

If she had made it in BEFORE this bruhaha, then she probably would have been ok.....now, she could be supergirl, and few will accept that she would have passed anyway.....

I agree. Perhaps I didn't articulate myself clearly. Do you men posting think the majority of us females WANT the standards lowered for us? Hell no. Y'all have no idea what it's already like doing this job as a woman with the perception by the public that we're somehow substandard as is.

My academy wasn't changed one bit because I was a woman. I ran the same distance in the same times right beside the rest of you. I had to drag the same X dummy X feet in the same time. Same pushups...nothing was changed, no time added, nothing physical dropped because I was a woman. And I was the only female in my academy.

I feel sorry for this woman because it's no longer about IF she can do the job. As he mentioned, she could leap tall buildings in a single bound, but you let her screw up ONE time and it will always be thrown in her face that the standards were lowered DESPITE the fact that she might very well perform on the same level as the men...I personally wouldn't do it. No one is doing anybody in favors in DEMANDING she be allowed in. I feel for her...really do.

LA DEP
03-31-2008, 05:59 PM
I would take a bet that Officer Grasso is probably a bit steamed right now....she ALMOST made it through SWAT training (under the old standards), but blew her knee up.........I have heard more than a few state that she would have made it, if she had not suffered the injury during training.....

Smurfette,,,,,MOST (not all) of the female Deps I have worked with feel exactly the same as you......but the PTB dont want to hear that......

J Bo1664
03-31-2008, 07:49 PM
I don't care if you are a man, woman, gay or strait. The thing that matters to me is if I am hit somewhere, bleeding to death, you can get to me and get me out of the danger zone. If It's a female, or male...I don't care. But lowering the standards is an injustice to everyone involved.

CUFFS137
03-31-2008, 08:47 PM
Well if those LA cops (females) honestly believe that the reduced standard is BS, and feel that they could obtain the position w/out the reduced standard they should, as a group, simply not apply. When the politicians go asking for candidates they get none, and get told why. The politicians only options then would be to eat sh*t, and not have any females SWAT cops, or to eat sh*t and undo their relaxed standards for female applicants. The politicians who started this BS would eat sh*t. The female candidates would test at equal standards, and those who get on would truly be equally qualified, beyond anyone's doubt. They would deserve their satisfaction.
Show me the kind of female officers who have the guts to do that, and I'll show you SWAT candidates.
I have to admit that I would resent having anyone on my team who was unable to perform at our established standards, yet was put on as a political statement. I would have some resentment at the presence of this person, male or female. I don't believe that you will find too many SWAT officers, male or female, on a team with high standards, who would feel any differently.

Smurfette_76
03-31-2008, 11:07 PM
As passionate as your response is, Cuffs, I'll disagree with you on the "guts" thing. That's courage which has diddly to do with physical strength. I personally wouldn't apply to a SWAT team for two reasons: 1) I undoubtedly wouldn't pass the physical and 2) it's not my "thing" if you will. But not having the "guts?" Oh, please. Did you simply misuse a word?

Secondly, what's to say she won't make it on the team and perform to the same level as the rest of you? I'm not saying I don't understand the resentment if she doesn't because a unit such as that would require that everyone pull their weight. However, I have a feeling (as I stated before) that it doesn't matter HOW good she is if she got in with reduced standards, I quite frankly, don't think many on the team will overlook it.

CUFFS137
04-01-2008, 12:05 AM
I was probably unclear in my ranting...It would take "guts" to undermine the politician(s) who were attempting to create a lesser standard for female candidates.
Having no female officer step forward to accept the lesser standard, and having them publicly state that they'd only be interested in SWAT if they were evaluated the same as the guys would undoubtedly be seen as undermining the policy (albeit stupid policy) of the politicos, and would therefore take "guts." My statement in no way referred to the guts involved with the tasks SWAT officers perform.

So nooowww do you agree Smurfette?

CUFFS137
04-01-2008, 12:10 AM
March 31, 2008, 2307 hours

The first, and probably last time I have ever been referred to a "passionate."

Smurfette_76
04-01-2008, 12:19 AM
So nooowww do you agree Smurfette?


LOL...I agree ;)

M-11
04-01-2008, 03:53 AM
Hey I don't care who comes to get me as long as someone comes. They can send Delta Force or Charlies Angels for all I care.

I was in a Male only career for about 7 years (Yes, even the Air Force has these, I was Light Infantry TACP) and we constantly had to put up with snotty remarks from our support folks (90% of whom were female) about how unfair it was. We actually ended up having to administer PAST tests to a couple of our Supply NCO's and their friends who wanted to write their congressman about how unfair it was.

While running these tests we discovered some interesting things.

Women can be strong, we had a couple who could knock out 6 pullups. How many can you do?

Women can be fast as well, several beat my 2 mile run time, and ran sprints like a champ.

They were weaker on a Bench Press by Body Weight % than all the guys, (but I'm the first to concede the rairity of Bench Pressing in high stress situations.)

They beat some of us on the memory, swim, and some other things as well.

We were actually impressed with their showing. But...

The Women got slaughtered on the Ruck March. If you throw a pack on someone and make them walk for 10 hours a day for 3 days you get to the real test of Light Infantry combat ability. We came to the following conclusion over beer and pizza (With the Testsed few of course)

Women can keep up with Men in most short term tactical circumstances. The problem is that men are naturally bigger and stronger, while women have to carefully manage their diet and excersize to maintain their optimum strength.
Women in this kind of shape will have unaturally low body fat, and will have a hard time recuperating as quickly as guys who are larger in mass (and Fat) who meet the same standard.

The wasting effects of long term abuse without a constant supply of power shakes penalizes the women for their state of less body fat.

Essentially, if they are in good enough shape to hang for a day, they are not fat enough to hang for a week.

THis is our theory, and the women we worked with decided to leave well enough alone after they saw how much our job sucked.

This is applicable to the conversation at hand in that Women are every bit as capable as Men in an Urban Tactical Capacity. They have access to food and water (Show me a Tac Team that does not need an Unlimited supply of Caffene) and have adequate support structure in place to maintain their high level of fitness.

As a side note, maintaining this level of fitness and strength is far more difficult for a Woman. Tha Natural Testosterone Guys have makes it easy, so Fellas, next time you're struggling for the last rep, remember. We have it easy.

M-11

CUFFS137
04-01-2008, 04:28 AM
Check out the girls on crossfit.com. Watch the nasty girls workout vid. You can't watch that vid, and argue that there are no physically qualified females out there.
The arguement is against a relaxed standard that will allow female officers, who may not be phisically qualified, access to SWAT positions simply because they are female. I wonder if the standard is relaxed for male candidates. Discrimination can be open, and acceptable if it is done in the name of political correctness I guess.
I've met several LAPD SWAT guys in both professional, and social settings...very, very alpha. While they may be biting their tongues, I have no doubt that they are not happy with this BS policy (not nessessarily the officer in question).