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View Full Version : Do you guys carry off-duty in church?



ujocka
02-23-2008, 06:12 PM
Just wondering how many on here carry off-duty in a church when attending service. I carry just about everywhere except church. Not that I am against it, just that the wife gave me too much of a hard time to the point where I decided against it. I may be rethinking it though. Just wanted to see what your opinions are.

Fella
02-23-2008, 06:34 PM
I don't carry off duty or go to church. If I did go to church though, I still wouldn't carry. Unless of course I thought I might have to take G-ma down for dipping into the collection plate.

Tmg
02-23-2008, 06:40 PM
I sure do. You never know where a nut job is going to strike next.

KenW.
02-23-2008, 06:42 PM
As long as criminals continue to think Churches are a "target-rich" environment, I'll keep carrying in them.

I went for about two years armed without my wife knowing it...;)

Frank Booth
02-23-2008, 06:52 PM
"The Lord helps those who help themselves..."

Monkeybomb
02-23-2008, 06:54 PM
Yes I do. All of the LEO at church that I know do as well. There have been more than a few church shootings and I don't really see them as no longer being a target. Of course many of of us have been asked by clergy to carry in light of what happened a few months ago here.

Of course I carry almost everywhere anymore. It's just the smart way to do business anymore. Even if your just a good witness I would rather be a good armed witness and protect my family.

School Cop
02-23-2008, 06:54 PM
Just do a Google for "church shootings." Show it to anyone who nags you about it.

I carry a Kel-Tec .32 with a total of 18 rounds in two mags, all in a holster in my front pocket that gives a square imprint. If someone notices, I can say it's a wallet, although I trust the folks at my church, and very few of them would have a problem with me carrying there.

I'm all for the power of prayer, but I prefer to think that God answers civilian prayers by providing them cops! If it ever happens, I'll be ready.

tick
02-23-2008, 07:28 PM
If you go without a gun just remeber to say BAAAAAAAAAAAA.

madlib
02-23-2008, 07:36 PM
If you go without a gun just remeber to say BAAAAAAAAAAAA.

nice one

exComptonCop
02-23-2008, 08:19 PM
In response to the apparent rise in active shooter incidents, my church has implemented a concealed carry usher team, consisting of off duty cops. To combat this very real threat, we now have at least two LEO's placed in strategic locations. Along with LEO's in attendance, we typically have between six and eight "identified" LEO's per service.

KenW.
02-23-2008, 09:05 PM
Somewhere in the Bible is a passage about; if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and get one...

CityCopDC
02-23-2008, 09:15 PM
Anytime I step foot outside my house, my weapon is on me. Its annoying at times but better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.

THE BRONZE
02-23-2008, 09:51 PM
Like CityCopDC, I don't leave my house without at least one gun anymore. But long before I started carrying 100% of the time, I always carried in church.

DesertRat
02-23-2008, 11:08 PM
Yes, if Christ had a Glock he wouldn't have needed to take time to make a scourge of small cords. St. John 2-15 :eek: I'm probably going to He!! for that one.

scratched13
02-24-2008, 12:47 AM
I feel naked when I even go into HQ without a firearm.

andy5746
02-24-2008, 01:38 AM
Yes, always.

pulicords
02-24-2008, 06:34 AM
If you go without a gun just remeber to say BAAAAAAAAAAAA.

A few months ago, Lt. Col. Dave Grossman did a presentation for LEOs here in Los Angeles County. Of course he strongly endorsed off-duty CCW (the sheepdog vs sheep theory) even in church. I later heard that one or more of our "civilized" officers in attendance didn't like the class. Too "harsh" for their tastes I guess. Interestingly, less than five days later (you guessed it) a psycho in Lancaster (CA) disrupted a Sunday church service, assaulted the pastor and when subdued was found to be carrying a loaded .45 auto. The incident occurred in northern Los Angeles County, about an hour's drive from where Lt. Col. Grossman's class was held.

GLOCKMASTER
02-24-2008, 08:41 AM
Off duty I carry everywhere I go all the time, to include church.

I'm paid to serve and to protect people I may not even know or like. Why not offer that for family and yourself, when you can, when you are off duty? If you don't you are no better off than the people who call 911 when they need a police officer.

Frank Booth
02-24-2008, 09:09 AM
I later heard that one or more of our "civilized" officers in attendance didn't like the class. Too "harsh" for their tastes I guess.

I saw Grossman live and definately took him with a grain of salt. Grossman sells Grossman and his Sheepdog stuff. The message I got from him was that if you CAN carry a gun, you have a DUTY to carry a gun. I don't buy this. There are plenty of people out there who technically can carry a gun wherever they want, but have no business doing so for many reasons. On top of that, if you don't think you should be carrying, for whatever reason, you should NOT be carrying.

He was a little over the top for me, but I guess that works to get his message across. I don't believe he was the one who came up with the ubiquitous "Sheepdog" analogy, but I don't remember him giving credit to the guy who did. I think it's been around long before he started using it. I wish he'd come up with something else, it's really starting to become sorta cliche.

Makes me think of the cartoon from the 70's where the sheepdog and the wolf used to punch a time clock, go at each other for their shift, punch the clock again and go have a beer.

I've read a few of his books like "On Killing" and "The Bulletproof Mind". He makes some good points but like everything you have to decide for yourself and separate the wheat from the chaff.

pujolsfan146
02-24-2008, 09:14 AM
Yes I do. Especially in church.

SWATCybercop
02-24-2008, 09:28 AM
Yes, I carry in church. My fellow parishioners suspect I do (although they're not totally sure).

scratched13
02-24-2008, 11:29 AM
I saw Grossman live and definately took him with a grain of salt. Grossman sells Grossman and his Sheepdog stuff. The message I got from him was that if you CAN carry a gun, you have a DUTY to carry a gun. I don't buy this. There are plenty of people out there who technically can carry a gun wherever they want, but have no business doing so for many reasons. On top of that, if you don't think you should be carrying, for whatever reason, you should NOT be carrying.

He was a little over the top for me, but I guess that works to get his message across. I don't believe he was the one who came up with the ubiquitous "Sheepdog" analogy, but I don't remember him giving credit to the guy who did. I think it's been around long before he started using it. I wish he'd come up with something else, it's really starting to become sorta cliche.

Makes me think of the cartoon from the 70's where the sheepdog and the wolf used to punch a time clock, go at each other for their shift, punch the clock again and go have a beer.

I've read a few of his books like "On Killing" and "The Bulletproof Mind". He makes some good points but like everything you have to decide for yourself and separate the wheat from the chaff.

I see your point, kinda. But ..... to combat the liberal mentality out there, we NEED an over the top guy. Kids grow up today being suspended from school for PROTECTING themselves ..... because "any" force is BAD!!!! even when you are just trying to protect yourself.

jakflak
02-24-2008, 12:56 PM
Yup. It's better to have a gun you don't need than need a gun you don't have.

Granted, most of the men in my church (and several women too) carry also. I pity the fool who tries something in my church.

Surf
02-24-2008, 01:06 PM
Praise be to the Lord my rock, who trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle.
Psalm 144:1

They didn't have firearms back in the day but I am sure he wouldn't mind the shepherds packing the heat in his house.

Churches are more dangerous than banks.

just joe
02-24-2008, 01:33 PM
My Glock 26 and I left church just a couple of hours ago.

LA DEP
02-24-2008, 03:18 PM
If I leave the house, a firearm goes with me....even to Mass....

J Bo1664
02-24-2008, 04:11 PM
Yes, I do. I just got back from Church actually. I always carry at Church. For those of you who think it is silly, an off duty Officer was actually in Church at the time of a Church shooting in TX I believe. He did not carry to Church. He stated he never though he needed to. His son was one of the wounded that day. The Officer stated that all he could do was lay over his son and wait for the suspect to kill them both. He also stated that if he had been armed that day, he could have stopped the suspect before he ever shot anyone, including his son. The Officer's son survived, but now the Officer goes armed everywhere. We are not put here to save the world, because we can't. But we can save a few, including our families. To all of you who say you never carry at Church, please think about that decision. You may be the only one who could save your own family, or your Church family. I hope that I can go to my Church for many years to come and never even think about using my gun. But I know, as all of you should, when it goes bad...it goes bad quick. And if we don't do something to stop the actions of those who prey on the weak, no one will. Be safe, J-Bo

tripledouble
02-25-2008, 01:16 AM
Just wondering how many on here carry off-duty in a church when attending service. I carry just about everywhere except church. Not that I am against it, just that the wife gave me too much of a hard time to the point where I decided against it. I may be rethinking it though. Just wanted to see what your opinions are.
Yes, I do. Mainly because I choose to carry anytime I leave my home. Church is not my home, thus, I carry my gun.
I've attended church before I was a cop and I didn't carry so, what's the diff? I'm sworn now and I could, for whatever reason, run into a turd while driving to church, driving home from church, going out to the store or restaurant after church, or like others have said, in church.

Ten-32
02-25-2008, 07:34 AM
I always carry in church.

In my opinion, it is irresponsible not to.

Frank Booth
02-25-2008, 04:38 PM
Yes, I do. I just got back from Church actually. I always carry at Church. For those of you who think it is silly, an off duty Officer was actually in Church at the time of a Church shooting in TX I believe.

Would you happen to have a link to that info...I could use it for an argument with the anti-gunners I encounter....

KenW.
02-25-2008, 06:11 PM
That should be a short arguement. Just ask who's going to protect you when someone runs in the sanctuary with a shot gun and a deathwish.

Plaso
02-25-2008, 07:00 PM
"The Lord helps those who help themselves..."

Go Frank Booth! :D I couldn't have said it better.

Frank Booth
02-25-2008, 07:35 PM
That should be a short arguement. Just ask who's going to protect you when someone runs in the sanctuary with a shot gun and a deathwish.

Yeah, but I like when I can throw a real-world case at em....They can identify better......"Wow, that could have been me!!"

listen-ncountry
02-25-2008, 08:50 PM
I don't carry off duty or go to church. If I did go to church though, I still wouldn't carry. Unless of course I thought I might have to take G-ma down for dipping into the collection plate.

:p LOL, I have a friend whom just got his CCDW and he is a retired fire fighter but runs squad since he retired and he told me he took his gun into church with him he said " you just never know when someone might try and rob you and these days he is right,..................:rolleyes:

moses0341
02-25-2008, 09:42 PM
Without hesitation, I carry everytime i leave my house, whether to water the dogs, go shopping or to church. I made a decision before taking this job that i would never be caught in a position where i needed to use deadly force and not have the means to carry that out. Personally, I would never want to have a 'coulda, woulda, shoulda' moment haunting me for the rest of my life.

Rev1
02-26-2008, 12:43 AM
I would if I went to church.


Rev

rayder1
02-26-2008, 01:25 AM
Nice way to commit a sin and get absolution all at once....ice a bad guy in front of the Priest.

I know a few Fr.'s who wouldn't mind handling that dilemna.

LeanG
02-26-2008, 11:01 AM
sometimes.......

Nightshift va
02-26-2008, 11:27 AM
Would you happen to have a link to that info...I could use it for an argument with the anti-gunners I encounter....

There was also a story on the cover page of Officer.Com about the church shooting in Colorado I think.

Short answer. Sure I carry in Church, when I go to church. I carry everywhere and hope I never "need it". But the adage fits "Better to have it and not need it then to need it and not have it. I don't think any anti-gun person will be swayed in support of "any" type of carry so that said why waste the energy of showing facts related to various massacres from schools to church. The facts are there and still the anti-gun lobby ask for more gun control.

CopnaEire
02-26-2008, 04:43 PM
I must be living in a dream world. While I am armed police officer, and I am armed when I come home from work and going to work - I rarely carry off duty. I have been required to carry off duty by my superiors - but they were not normall circumstances. Would I Carry in church - no way - I would feel that I was disrespecting God BUT it must be said we don't have the same problem here as ye suffer in the States. (My utmost respect to you guys)

LeanG
02-26-2008, 04:58 PM
I must be living in a dream world. While I am armed police officer, and I am armed when I come home from work and going to work - I rarely carry off duty. I have been required to carry off duty by my superiors - but they were not normall circumstances. Would I Carry in church - no way - I would feel that I was disrespecting God BUT it must be said we don't have the same problem here as ye suffer in the States. (My utmost respect to you guys)

We don't carry openly, and sometimes my wife doesn't even know I'm carrying.

We do not normally have church shootings that really make it a necessity to carry, but with me, its almost a part of me. If I'm wearing long pants, I'm carrying 95% of the time. With shorts, about 25% of the time. It just depends on that officer's comfort.

With all that being said, I think that this forum is tilted heavily towards the pro-gun/CCW side so carrying in church is second nature to many that's going to respond.

NTSMadDog
02-26-2008, 06:48 PM
Well I don't wear one in church, and i rarely wear my off duty weapon at all. I live in a small rural area, where my cell phone is usually a better weapon than my gun anyway. I think it's a good idea, and I guess I probably should take it with me, but luckily I live in an area, where it's not needed.

Seamonkey6
02-26-2008, 07:04 PM
You want a thread to a recent church shooting? Here you go...

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/12/09/church.shooting/

I am a cop in Colorado. We had a nut kill kids at a missionary school then kill people at a church. The suspect shot and killed 2 daughters from the same family in front of their father in a vehicle. I can't imagine how I would have felt knowing I could carry a gun and address that threat, but didn't carry a gun to church.

Everyone has to make their own decisions. God knows I carry a gun. At least 40 hours a week I carry it on duty. I wonder why some people think that God would think it would be okay to carry a gun to protect yourself and others on duty, but not off. I personally think that if you are called to do this work, then you are called to do it. I feel very comfortable that I am doing what I am meant to do and that calling includes carrying a gun.

Never forget that if you knew when you were going to need a gun, then you could pick and choose when to carry. Since none of us know, then I say carry it all the time. I doubt you will ever regret having it, but I know there are cops out there who will never forgive themselves for the times they didn't.

Stay safe!

tom165
02-26-2008, 07:05 PM
We've been given the responsibility of protecting others by our communities, but I believe also by God. The recent church shooting in CO showed this pretty clearly when that brave woman (a former police officer) engaged the shooter with multiple hits causing him to cease his aggression and take his own life. She saved lives that day.

Seamonkey6
02-26-2008, 07:16 PM
Romans 13: 3-4

Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.

Monkeybomb
02-26-2008, 07:42 PM
I guess I probably should take it with me, but luckily I live in an area, where it's not needed.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,274180,00.html

Here is a church shooting in Idaho. It can happen anywhere.........

jebtcop
02-26-2008, 09:10 PM
Well I don't wear one in church, and i rarely wear my off duty weapon at all. I live in a small rural area, where my cell phone is usually a better weapon than my gun anyway. I think it's a good idea, and I guess I probably should take it with me, but luckily I live in an area, where it's not needed.

Not trying to flame..but....Famous last words right there. :o

Roo676
02-27-2008, 02:12 AM
i carry every where , even in church but so does my pastor who is also the s/o's chaplen

SirLancelot
02-27-2008, 02:20 AM
Would I Carry in church - no way - I would feel that I was disrespecting God BUT it must be said we don't have the same problem here as ye suffer in the States. (My utmost respect to you guys)
If you don't mind me asking - why would you feel this way? If carrying in church would somehow be disrespecting God, how would carrying outside of church not also be disrespecting Him?

I attend a somewhat large-sized church and they've been forced to take the current-day situation seriously. Any given Sunday will have either an off-duty officer from the local dept standing in the foyer, or an off-duty plainclothes officer that's a normal attender at the church doing so. The size of the church really doesn't matter either. Just last week there was an intelligence bulletin issued regarding a nutcase who wants to do a "Columbine" at a local church that's on the small side of the spectrum.

I don't carry with me right now simply because I feel it'd be most prudent of me to wait until I graduate Academy this summer. After that though, a compact .40 or 9mm will be accompanying me basically everywhere I go, including church.

NORCOCOP
02-27-2008, 06:08 AM
Absolutely every where I go I carry, my only dilemma is how to keep it close at the Golds Gym while I am lifting. I hate having to wear my shirt untucked, but my church is in lets say an economically depressed area and the PO-lice kinda scare people. My Priest knows I carry but no one else outside my family and I like it that way. I get alot of well my little joey had such and such happen last week isn't that abusive, can I sue? I just let them know I doubt they are getting the whole story and unless I am there I don't dole out opinions/ judgements on uses of force or adherence to policy, sans un-biased facts.

Nightshift va
02-27-2008, 09:42 AM
I must be living in a dream world. While I am armed police officer, and I am armed when I come home from work and going to work - I rarely carry off duty. I have been required to carry off duty by my superiors - but they were not normall circumstances. Would I Carry in church - no way - I would feel that I was disrespecting God BUT it must be said we don't have the same problem here as ye suffer in the States. (My utmost respect to you guys)

Being prepared to protect the "flock" of "sheep" from the "wolves" is in no way "disrespecting God in my opinion. You are not living in a dream world just it seems not being realistic. A man made building with a cross and a steeple will not stop a slaughter if some nut job decides to commit murder but an armed trained off duty police officer just might.

BP1
02-27-2008, 09:45 AM
As others have said here, I carry in church as well. There's no protective shield around the church that prevents a situation where you'd need to use your weapon. Fortunately, the times it's been needed in and around houses of worship are pretty few and far between but you always should be prepared just in case.

School Cop
02-27-2008, 11:15 AM
I must be living in a dream world. While I am armed police officer, and I am armed when I come home from work and going to work - I rarely carry off duty. I have been required to carry off duty by my superiors - but they were not normall circumstances. Would I Carry in church - no way - I would feel that I was disrespecting God BUT it must be said we don't have the same problem here as ye suffer in the States. (My utmost respect to you guys)

As has been said, you're protecting the flock. Remember, David generally sat in the pasture singing praises to God, but when a threat to his flock came in the form of a lion or bear, he lay down his harp, picked up a weapon, and took care of business. Says so in the Bible.

CityCopDC
02-27-2008, 01:57 PM
I live in a small rural area, where my cell phone is usually a better weapon than my gun anyway. I think it's a good idea, and I guess I probably should take it with me, but luckily I live in an area, where it's not needed. I have an issue with your way of thinking. Its like saying you dont have car insurance because the store you go to is right across the street and its rarely any traffic on the road. Therefore the chances of you getting into an accident are slim to none. What if your number is called? :eek:

CopnaEire
02-27-2008, 04:25 PM
If you don't mind me asking - why would you feel this way? If carrying in church would somehow be disrespecting God, how would carrying outside of church not also be disrespecting Him?

Let me put it this way- work is work and worship is worship. Can I clarify where I come from. IRELAND????? And no, the IRA are not running aroung the streets, wheeling guns left, right and centre. The country is really not a serious gun culture place. Murder rate of the country is in the low 70's on a yearly basis. Most of the killing are from knives. There has never been a gun shooting in a church in the Republic of Ireland - ever. (there has in the North of Ireland but that was before the peace process and it hasn't happened since.)

I am going to be very honest- I don't work in the same fear as our brothers in the States but we do have our problems with Organised Crime, again this is a european problem. Now I am going to stop spouting out of me.

Seamonkey6
02-27-2008, 06:45 PM
We have several laterals from outside the US at my department. One from London Metro. Some from Australia. Certainly the cultures are different and if you ask those guys, they can tell you that so is society. I am sure Ireland is similar in that guns are not commonly carried by civilians.

I salute you, CopnaEire, and your convictions. Wish the US was a place where I could take my family to church and not worry about lunatics.

Your department taking US laterals? ;)

God bless and stay safe.

Frank Booth
02-27-2008, 10:29 PM
If you don't mind me asking - why would you feel this way? If carrying in church would somehow be disrespecting God, how would carrying outside of church not also be disrespecting Him?

At my church (second oldest Catholic parish in the nation), I often spend boring Homilies studying the stained glass windows. I noted that St. Michael is carrying a rather large sword. They must have had open carry back then.

Group 29
02-27-2008, 10:32 PM
Absolutely. If God calls for some backup, do you want to tell him you didn't bother to bring your gun? :D

rrmark
02-27-2008, 10:40 PM
Since you brought this up...lol
INDIANAPOLIS (WISH) - The focus of a class held Tuesday night was focused on learning to prevent crime on the east side. The meeting was just hours after three parishioners were robbed at gunpoint inside a church.

A bizarre crime scene has left police trying to figure out ways to prevent more crime and hunt down a suspect.

"I learned to not leave my purse in my shopping cart or in my car when I go get gas. That sort of thing," said east side resident Virginia Myer.

That was but one of the lessons learned after a masked gunman robbed three people at St. Lawrence Catholic Church.

"We have Bible studies every Wednesday night downstairs in a church so maybe we should start locking the doors after everybody's in," added Myer.

Investigators say the three parishioners heard someone loading a bullet into the chamber of a handgun and when they turned around a man in a ski mask demanded their money.

"He walked up to the three people inside the church, held a plastic bag, dangled it in front of their face and robbed them at gunpoint, taking about $80 total," said Sergeant Mark Osborn with the Lawrence Police Department.

Detectives say he told each parishioner "God bless you" as he took their money.

"Be aware of your surroundings. If something doesn't look right, it probably isn't right. If your not sure then just walk away from it. Ensure your safety," said IMPD Major Larry Jahnke.

Meantime, east side seniors aren't taking anything for granted.

"I don't open my door if I don't know who it is. I'll look out but if somebody knocks on my door anytime of the day or night. I won't open my door unless I know who it is," said Myer.

Police say the suspect wasn't wearing gloves and may have left behind a finger print.

At the time of the robbery he was wearing a black ski mask, green winter coat, khaki pants and white tennis shoes.

Anyone with information that might help with the investigation can call Crime Stoppers at 262-TIPS or the Lawrence Police Department.

Thisguy1996
02-27-2008, 10:51 PM
Well I don't wear one in church, and i rarely wear my off duty weapon at all. I live in a small rural area, where my cell phone is usually a better weapon than my gun anyway. I think it's a good idea, and I guess I probably should take it with me, but luckily I live in an area, where it's not needed.


Not trying to dogpile you here. But, if a deranged gunman wanted to inflict a vast amount of carnage, where better than a place where everyone feels that safe. So safe that even an officer feels they don't need a gun. There was a church shooting in Ft. Worth, Tx. There was an off-duty officer in the church unarmed. His son was shot and I believed killed. The question we must ask ourselves is: how would I feel if I had the chance to stop the carnage but I didn't prepair myself to do so. NTS and others reading this............please please please............. get to know the teachings of LT COL. Grossman. If we (the officers around the world) do not protect the flock who will?

Stay Safe

southga
02-28-2008, 11:12 AM
If it is an occasion worth putting pants on there is at least a pistola in my pocket ;)

NTSMadDog
02-29-2008, 05:54 PM
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,274180,00.html

Here is a church shooting in Idaho. It can happen anywhere.........


Right after I left this message I knew someone would bring this shooting up. Ok I hear you.

SOI
02-29-2008, 10:11 PM
I carry EVERYWHERE!!!!!!! No exceptions. If you see me, I am armed. And every member of our church is welcome to do the same, allthough most of them don't. Neither me nor anyone in our church believes it in anyway offends God to be prepared to save our fellow man. If it were offensive to God in church, it would be offensive to God at all times in all places.

I've lived in a "city" of a couple hundred, a city of a couple of million, and cities of all sizes in between. And everywhere I have lived I have felt the need to carry at all times.

fcs25
03-01-2008, 01:52 PM
:) The only place I do not carry is when I'm in court and the judge doesn't allow off duty officers to carry.Every where else is legal for a law enforcement officer.

pulicords
03-01-2008, 04:32 PM
Well I don't wear one in church, and i rarely wear my off duty weapon at all. I live in a small rural area, where my cell phone is usually a better weapon than my gun anyway. I think it's a good idea, and I guess I probably should take it with me, but luckily I live in an area, where it's not needed.

It's obviously your decision to make, but to me failing to carry off-duty for the reasons stated makes as much sense as failing to wear seat belts while driving. Sure there's not as much traffic in rural areas (probably even less in those areas on Sundays), but wearing them offers more protection than relying on your cell phone to call for help after the collision.

Frank Booth
03-01-2008, 05:31 PM
I carry EVERYWHERE!!!!!!! No exceptions. If you see me, I am armed.

Ever go swimming at the beach?

3rdGenerationSO
03-01-2008, 08:11 PM
Funny this subject came up. Last week, I was in Sunday School. The pastor happens to teach the class I am in; there are about 15 people who attend any given week. The church is large enough that there are many people I don't know and I have attended for two years.

There happens to be three cops (including me) in my Sunday School class. By chance, I was sitting next to the preacher. During the lesson, he noted our (cops) need to be suspicious of people pursuant to our line of work. He said, "who would think of bringing a gun to church...I bet...(he reached over and felt my left ankle tapping my gun through my jeans)...yep...thought so!" He then went on to note how thankful he is that he has law enforcement in his church, and that they are armed. I felt a little embarrassed at getting "caught" but proud that I was "prepared". Re-load in back pocket.

DeputySC
03-02-2008, 04:53 PM
I dont go to church, but I would carry mine if I did. Bad guys go to church to.

KenW.
03-02-2008, 05:40 PM
Bad guys go to church to.

I'd say though, generally for different reasons, like in search of an unarmed target?

dep111
03-04-2008, 04:55 PM
CopnaErie I am truly envious of your culture, it is quite different I am sure. At times I simply wonder why USA is so different than some of the other cultures, I do have my opinions though. Unfortunately we have to suspect things are going to happen everywhere in the states.
You bet I carry everywhere I go and that includes church. You never know when one of the savages will show up next, but I will be ready.
Sure would be a strange thing to have to do in a church but "WE" are the peacekeepers!

U.S.Marshal
03-04-2008, 06:55 PM
I carry to church and anywhere else I go outside the house, not many places that are safe anymore. Most of the local LEO's I attend with carry also.

TooYoung
03-05-2008, 12:55 AM
I am new officer and have been talkn to my wife bout carry offduty and she thinks that in the area we live(no city bigger than 2000 with in 30 miles) there is no need I am glad i found this thread i will be sure to show it to her in the AM
thanks for all the help

LA DEP
03-05-2008, 12:57 AM
I am new officer and have been talkn to my wife bout carry offduty and she thinks that in the area we live(no city bigger than 2000 with in 30 miles) there is no need I am glad i found this thread i will be sure to show it to her in the AM
thanks for all the help

Go to ODMP.org and look up Deputy Shayne York from LASD.......not to be paranoid, but it can happen ANYWHERE.....

StationHound
03-05-2008, 02:57 AM
Would I Carry in church - no way - I would feel that I was disrespecting God BUT it must be said we don't have the same problem here as ye suffer in the States. (My utmost respect to you guys)
I'm not trying to argue or be disrespectful of your position, especially not fully understanding the social/political climate where you are. My response is not a personal criticism of your position, just a general statement on the matter.

I do carry in church. I should probably carry more often as a general rule, but church is a location I am intentional about doing so. Many have already listed their reasons, so I won't rehash them.

I would just respectfully ask any officer who goes to church to consider the words penned in the Book of Romans, Chapter 13, verses 1-7:



Romans 13:1-7
Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.
* Bolded for emphasis

As is the case with many other bible passages, the interpretation of this can be debated. I'm not trying to start a debate about that point, just providing a source that has shaped my perspective. As such, I personally don't think I am disrespecting God by carrying at church. I believe I have the same duty within the walls of a church building as I do outside of them.

BTW, hello everyone. This is my first post. :D

FNA209
03-05-2008, 05:29 AM
I don't think God is a member of the Brady crowd. ;)

jebtcop
03-05-2008, 09:28 AM
I carried at my wedding. Yup.

moses0341
03-05-2008, 09:29 AM
I carried at my wedding too. So did the Best Man, and one of my ushers.

jebtcop
03-05-2008, 09:35 AM
I carried at my wedding too. So did the Best Man, and one of my ushers.

My best man hit the flask a bit early so he didn't carry....:D

scratched13
03-05-2008, 09:35 AM
Do I carry ..... in court? Yes. When I visit schools .... like VA Tech? Yes. When I go to fast food restaurants ..... like Wendy's? Yes. Everywhere? YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!

smith0096
03-05-2008, 10:29 PM
I did at a funeral...bitterness between the two sides of family.

Absolut
03-06-2008, 03:40 PM
Anytime I step foot outside my house, my weapon is on me. Its annoying at times but better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.

Same.

dutchboy
03-06-2008, 05:30 PM
unprovoked shooting in Wendy's.......why are we still having the debate on carrying off duty? as Lt. Grossman said, if you leave without your gun, prepare to say Baaa.

MarineVet89
03-06-2008, 07:28 PM
Everywhere, everytime. Because the bad guys will attack anywhere at anytime.....

CopnaEire
03-09-2008, 06:31 PM
Can I just say that in the CURRENT Climate I work in, I don't think I will be packing going to church. Recently I had an argument with my pastor over when was it appropiate for me to lie. HE told me never, but I put the scenario that If I was talking online to some sicko, IS IT NOT JUST for me to pretend to be an eight year old. The fact that my pastor believed this to be sin (Go Figure) I would say he would have a heart attack if he ever found out I was carrying in church. I dont believe that the social break down in IReland is such that would require me to carry my piece in church but as stated this is the CURRENT climate....Things might change in the future.....praying that it doesn't.

May God grant you peace and protection in all of your endavours....

and yes, when you people do come to Ireland...PM Me before you come.. I'll make sure you go to all the NICE places so you have no need to carry. (Last part joke )

KenW.
03-09-2008, 06:44 PM
I just hope that the first indication of a change in your climate is not an armed intruder with a deathwish in your Church.

marcusindc
03-09-2008, 07:44 PM
I carry everywhere, including Church. I asked my Pastor if he minded, out of respect, though I probably would have carried even if he had said no. We have a "security" team in the Church, made up of a bunch of terd's with earpieces, but hopefully that keeps the bad guys out. If not, my Glock 27 will.

pulicords
03-13-2008, 04:00 AM
and yes, when you people do come to Ireland...PM Me before you come.. I'll make sure you go to all the NICE places so you have no need to carry. (Last part joke )

There aren't any NICE places in Ireland? (Joke):D

Dave2886
03-13-2008, 11:39 AM
Would you happen to have a link to that info...I could use it for an argument with the anti-gunners I encounter....
I believe your hero Col Grossman refers to that story in his seminars. BTW, I agree with you that he's over the top, but I happen to agree with what he says, so I don't mind.

WC145
03-13-2008, 04:11 PM
You just never know where or when some nutbag is going to get the itch. I live in a very rural area and I seldom go to church but I would if I did because I carry everywhere, all the time. In addition to being a LEO I am also a respiratory therapist and I carry a Kel-tec .380, a spare mag and a knife on me when I'm in scrubs in the hospital. When I am at home I have a gun sitting on the counter I have to pass to get to the doors and I drop in my pocket whenever I go to the door or outside and when I go to bed it sits on the nightstand next to my bed.

Just a few weeks ago we had a double murder here, the first killing around here in years. A ****ed off ex-boyfriend with no priors takes his 30-06 to his ex-girlfriend's house and shoots and kills her in front of her kids, wounding one of them in the process and then shot and killed her new beau (who was a dispatcher for a PD about 50 miles away). Naturally nobody else was armed and nobody fought. The 911 tape just has alot of begging, gunshots, and screams. I'm sorry, that's not going to be me. I'm not going out without a fight. Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition!

Frank Booth
03-13-2008, 04:30 PM
I believe your hero Col Grossman refers to that story in his seminars. BTW, I agree with you that he's over the top, but I happen to agree with what he says, so I don't mind.

I thought it sounded familiar. That's probably where I heard it. Not saying it didn't happen, just trying to come up with the specifics. The main thing I disagree with Grossman about is that there are absolutely people out there who can legally carry guns who have no business carrying. One of the things I remember about his seminar was the idea that "If you CAN carry a gun, you SHOULD carry a gun all the time." Also, the hackneyed "Sheep, Sheepdog and Wolf" metaphor. He really needs to come up with something else...

Besides, aren't sheepdogs for herding? A wolf would probably tear up a sheepdog. Got any sheepherders out there? (Not that there's anything wrong with that).
Sheepdog:
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dogs/i/old_english_sheepdog.jpg

Wolf:

http://www.blackfive.net/main/images/2007/09/28/angry_wolf.jpg

Werewolf:
http://images.epilogue.net/users/dominic/werewolf_epi.jpg

Werewolves of London:
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b115/NormanYan007/wwl.jpg

Wolfman Jack:
http://z.about.com/d/oldies/1/0/U/2/wolfmanjack.jpg

meanmattd
03-14-2008, 10:33 AM
Nice Warren Zevon reference......(showing your age, I guess I am, too by knowing who that is....)

All the time, everywhere. I had the youth pastor approach me when I was at my daughter's Upward basketball game to confirm I had one on me. Church is not in best area of town....

How could I explain to someone I didn't act in a manner consistent with training or neutralize a threat with one simple tool? I've felt the powerlessness of not being able to help on death scenes.... I'll never have to explain why I was around a situation and didn't have the means to act.

pulicords
03-14-2008, 03:02 PM
Besides, aren't sheepdogs for herding? A wolf would probably tear up a sheepdog. Got any sheepherders out there? (Not that there's anything wrong with that)


There isn't a wolf around that could bite his way through my sheepdog's body armor! He'd just get a mouth full of cords and a face full of teeth! ;)

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u34/Pulicords/IMGP0504.jpg

Frank Booth
03-14-2008, 04:53 PM
He looks like he might like Bob Marley....

Dave2886
03-15-2008, 12:11 AM
Is that Jerry Garcia? :D

Frank Booth
03-15-2008, 06:17 AM
NOW I know what your screen name means....Wouldn't work well with the whole Sheepdog metaphor though....

"There are Sheep, and there are Pulis...."

Group 29
03-15-2008, 09:04 AM
Put it this way, when driving to church, do you take your spare tire out, and leave it at home?

Mike 842
03-15-2008, 07:15 PM
Every church service LOD funeral I've attended, and most all the Officers off-duty in dress uniforms, I did'nt see ONE empty holster. Why would it it any different on your time off, except that you carry concealed?

broke
03-15-2008, 11:25 PM
I didn't read all the replies, but I make it a point to carry especially when I am in church.

Any mentally disturbed person who wants to get on the news and make a statement in his own twisted way might see a church as the perfect place.

I look at it this way, the Lord put me on this earth to guard his flock.

I would be derelict in my duty not to be armed at all times.

KenW.
03-15-2008, 11:28 PM
In my former position at my agency I was doing mental transports about every day it seemed. Easily 30-40% were religious ideations or messiah complexes.

Thankfully we can ask they be sedated (chemically restrained) prior to transport...

broke
03-15-2008, 11:35 PM
Let me put it this way- work is work and worship is worship. Can I clarify where I come from. IRELAND????? And no, the IRA are not running aroung the streets, wheeling guns left, right and centre. The country is really not a serious gun culture place. Murder rate of the country is in the low 70's on a yearly basis. Most of the killing are from knives. There has never been a gun shooting in a church in the Republic of Ireland - ever. (there has in the North of Ireland but that was before the peace process and it hasn't happened since.)

I am going to be very honest- I don't work in the same fear as our brothers in the States but we do have our problems with Organised Crime, again this is a european problem. Now I am going to stop spouting out of me.

Do not take this the wrong way. I respect you and the job you do.

But you must re-consider your mindset and way of thinking.

KenW.
03-16-2008, 01:51 PM
While seated in a pew an ankle holster is quite accessable.

My Church doesn't ask us to approach the front and kneel.

BPD_126
03-19-2008, 02:33 AM
The people in church have known me since I was born. I'd think I had just as much duty to protect them as any of my other friends or fellow officers. If something happend, they'd all look to me to do something anyway because they all know I'm an officer. That'd be a weird situation......... "Stop looking at me! I don't have my gun!!"

Forgot to add I also go to church in a "bad" part of KC. Gotta keep the travel to and from in mind as well.

Dep. T. Junior
03-23-2008, 04:17 AM
Terror In The Sanctuary: Wedgwood Baptist Church in Fort Worth, Texas shooting

Here is the way one survivor tells it. When Larry Gene Ashbrook walked into the church sanctuary with his guns--a 9-mm semiautomatic and a .380-cal. one--he paused. He had already started a shooting spree outside that left two dead. But once inside he was approached by one of the teens who had been singing along with a Christian rock 'n' roll praise band. What the youngster offered the black-jacketed killer was heaven, saying, "You need Jesus." Ashbrook, 47, answered, "It's all bulls___, what you believe!" It was only then that he opened up on the over 100 defenseless worshippers, killing five more, wounding seven, creating martyrs.


Last week's massacre at Wedgwood Baptist Church in Fort Worth, Texas, may not have happened quite that way. That's a version being offered by someone who was there, but it's unconfirmed. Yet even if it is pious invention, it gives a glimpse of the way some evangelical Christians, children and adults alike, are thinking these days about the string of killings around the U.S. in which they have been victims. Last week's toll was added to the count of Christian teens killed at Columbine and three students killed at a 1997 prayer circle in West Paducah, Ky. Many evangelical leaders have begun to see "committed Christians" as the latest victims of hate crimes of the sort perpetrated upon blacks, women and gays. They have also begun to view those attacks in terms of the history of their faith--as acts of Satan, and as part of a persecution that stretches back to the earliest days of Christianity, during which countless believers suffered and died for professing their faith.

It's an explanation that allows the bereaved a certainty and solace in the face of a horrible riddle. And faced with the same endless series of senseless bloodlettings, even more secular precincts of America have been giving such claims a respectful hearing. After the shootings a moist-eyed George W. Bush said, "There seems to be a wave of evil passing through America." Today show's Katie Couric, interviewing Wedgwood's pastor, Al Meredith, listened as he offered the standard explanation for the crime: the killer was "deranged and deluded." Then, almost hesitantly, the pastor noted, "There's some possible theological, religious reasons you may not be interested in." Said Couric: "Well, go ahead." And Meredith explained that because of all the seminary students attending Wedgwood, "if I were Satan, and if I were real, and I wanted to deliver a death knell to the kingdom of God, I would target this church."

The man wore jeans and was smoking a cigarette. The first person he shot was Jeff Laster, a seminarian working as a custodian who asked him to put it out. Next was Sydney Browning, the children's choir director, resting on a sofa in the foyer, followed by a young man who had been selling Christian CDs. In the sanctuary, the shooter found a roomful of adolescents, happily celebrating that morning's observance of See You at the Pole, an annual national event in which Christian teens gather around their school flagpoles before classes to pray. A band called Forty Days was playing a song titled Alle, alleluia, when Ashbrook was allegedly invited to accept the Lord. He moved to the back of the sanctuary, banged a door to get his audience's attention, and started firing again.

At first, some of the teens thought it was a joke, a skit "to remind everyone how precious life was," says one of their parents. A youngster saw the boy next to him grab his waist. "It's just a paint gun," claimed the one who got hit. Both of them watched red ooze from a real-looking wound. "It stings," said the injured boy, still not understanding what had happened to him. People dove behind pews. Mary Beth Talley, 17, noticed that her friend Heather McDonald was not hiding. McDonald has Down syndrome. Talley threw herself on McDonald. Ashbrook fired. Even after Talley was shot, she continued to comfort McDonald, trying to keep her quiet. Talley survived with minor wounds.

The murderer paced and yelled at his victims to "be still." He shot and reloaded, shot and reloaded. Only after he pulled a small pipe bomb from his pocket, lit it and rolled it down the aisle--it exploded harmlessly--did those who could make a break for the doors. Then Ashbrook strolled to a back pew, sat down and shot himself fatally in the temple.

The police and other authorities who searched his home and his life in the next 72 hours found plenty of clues to a deranged mind. The walls had holes punched in them; the toilets had been filled with concrete; a set of journals dating back a decade itemized plots against him. Neighbors would later report about his ranting and exposing himself. Some speculated that what finally unhinged him was the death in July of his 85-year-old father, who had been the unemployed Ashbrook's sole means of support. What no one found was any connection to the Wedgwood church or its congregation.

Some, however, believe they have an inkling. They suspect that in a secularized America in which they are a minority, evangelical Christians are being martyred for their beliefs. "I think that people are gonna have to count the cost of pursuing their faith in God," says Toby McKeehan, a member of dc Talk, one of the most popular Christian bands. "Something we thought was [just] history--people being killed because they had faith, people being martyred--is suddenly happening before our very eyes." Evangelicals have always admired martyrs, from those murdered by Diocletian to slain missionaries. But interest over the past year has exploded as Christians have made up an increasing proportion of the victims of mass murders. Last month McKeehan and his bandmates published Jesus Freaks, a catalog of martyrs past and present, written for teens. But the most talked-about new account of martyrdom is She Said Yes, the moving, nuanced story of Littleton victim Cassie Bernall by her mother Misty. Stores have bought 200,000 copies of the book, which came out last Monday, three days before the Fort Worth shooting. In the evangelical world, Cassie is almost universally considered a martyr. The Fort Worth dead, although their stories are not quite as pointed, will probably be seen similarly.



** No joke Off Duty Officer was inside church he was not carrying because his wife thought it was not needed.***

PeteBroccolo
03-24-2008, 12:28 PM
I have waited to throw my opinion into the ring on this one, and have only just read the page just before my post, but here I go. As I have said many times in the past on this forum, I thank God (quite appropriate, given this thread) that I do not live / work in an area, or country, where such attacks are common-place, and I feel sad for our sister / brother LEO / PO that do.

Having said that, I will state that I HAVE worn my gun in Church during Mass, although it has been in my holster on my fully-equipped duty belt while wearing my full working uniform. This was during Christmas Eve Mass, or the odd time when I was working on a Sunday morning, and had time to attend Mass then get back out on the road. I have even presented my soft body armour, badge and firearm for blessing by our Priest, asking for God's protection and guidance in my use of them.

As I have asked of you sister / brother LEO / PO that seem to "pack" 24 / 7 / sober, if you ONLY have your gun, but NOT your other defensive tools AND soft body armour, what good are you to anyone, let alone yourself? You go on duty fully-equipped - what is the difference in Church, the Piggly-Wiggly or the Bijou-Orpheum Theatre? If the threat is there, then be FULLY prepared, otherwise be a good witness and guide for the rest of the persons around you. A firearem is not your ONLY option on-duty - why must it be your only option off-duty? If you say you do NOT need everything off-duty, then WHY would you even NEED your gun?

God bless all of you, and I am NOT belittling any sister / brother LEO / PO on this forum. Do as you see fit, within your Agency's policies and your jurisdiction's prevailing laws. Maybe as more of us learn to obey God, those of us wearing a badge will have that much less to worry about - at least, that is my prayer and wish for all of us, while knowing it may never come about.

exComptonCop
03-24-2008, 01:17 PM
If the threat is there, then be FULLY prepared, otherwise be a good witness and guide for the rest of the persons around you. A firearem is not your ONLY option on-duty - why must it be your only option off-duty? If you say you do NOT need everything off-duty, then WHY would you even NEED your gun?



Ideally, off-duty cops would love nothing better than to remain a good witnesses in the event of a critical incident. As a matter of fact, 99.9% of the cops on this forum advocate exactly that. But alas, that's not always possible. There are times(not often) when an OD cop may get drawn into an incident, and the "remain a good witness" philosophy goes to carp. I am alive today, because I had the good sense to carry off duty some years ago. I also know a few guys with similar off-duty experiences.

I'm glad you live in an area where potentially life threatening incidents never occur. (sounds a bit like heaven) But until that place is here, I plan on being a sheepdog.

LA DEP
03-24-2008, 02:06 PM
Pete,

One reason that many of use only carry the firearm is that we are only going to step in if it is a lethal force situtation.......other than that, I will be a good witness.

If it goes to that level, I will not NEED anything besides the firearm and extra ammo....I will not be using a stick, OC, Taser, or anything else,,,,,,If I draw the firearm, then I INTEND TO USE IT......If it is an active shooter, then no warning will be issued.....the first warning the suspect gets will be the .45 round to the head......

We are from two VERY different countries and cultures.........since I started in 1988, my agency alone has lost 22 Deputies.....three of them were off duty, one was executed after he was proned out during a takeover robbery, and ID as a LEO.........We are taught in our training to ALWAYS carry your firearm, with a couple of small exceptions.

also, here in LA anyway, if you WERE to carry all of your equipment off duty, you would probably get more than a few 'counseling sessions' from fellow LEO's and supervisors.....

I have been to Mass in uniform a few times (besides funerals).....my partner and I got more than a few strange looks......

Eastsidecopper
03-24-2008, 03:32 PM
Never leave home without Mr. Glock 27, badge, ID And cuffs

jebtcop
03-24-2008, 03:42 PM
As I have asked of you sister / brother LEO / PO that seem to "pack" 24 / 7 / sober, if you ONLY have your gun, but NOT your other defensive tools AND soft body armour, what good are you to anyone, let alone yourself? You go on duty fully-equipped - what is the difference in Church, the Piggly-Wiggly or the Bijou-Orpheum Theatre? If the threat is there, then be FULLY prepared, otherwise be a good witness and guide for the rest of the persons around you. A firearem is not your ONLY option on-duty - why must it be your only option off-duty? If you say you do NOT need everything off-duty, then WHY would you even NEED your gun?


LA DEP pretty much nailed it. Off duty I have no plan to involve myself in any situation if I can help it. If I must intervene, it will be because it is a life or death matter. Someone (or me) will most likely be killed if I don't act. You are right...I will be without the other tools I normally have at my disposal. I won't be wearing body armor. Of course, neither will my wife, child or other innocent third party. I will have my gun. I will do my best. I hope it will be enough. I may be killed, but at least I won't live the rest of my life knowing I failed to even try......

Dave2886
03-24-2008, 10:05 PM
** No joke Off Duty Officer was inside church he was not carrying because his wife thought it was not needed.***
It irks me when people blame their poor decisions on others...he was not carrying because he caved-in to pressure from his wife. There is a distinct difference. I'm married myself, and I'll be the first one to say I do what my wife says most of the time, but when and where I carry my gun (just about all the time and everywhere) is not one of those times.

And to Pete Broccolo, I agree that if you only carry a gun you are very much limited in your options, but like someone else alluded to, when I'm off duty, I'm not looking to play Johnny Law--I'm just looking to live my life and enjoy my time off with my family and friends. The ONLY reason I carry a gun is so I have that last resort option to defend my family and myself, or another innocent person if I can. If the situation doesn't merit deadly force, I'm gonna get my family out of the situation and then be a good witness. If it does merit deadly force, I'll still try and get my family out of the situation, but it may just be that in order to do so, I need to sling some lead. Knock on wood, I'll never be in that situation, but if I am I'll at least have a chance. The thought of losing a family member because I wasn't carrying a pistol that I am trained and authorized to carry and use is unbearable. It should be to anyone else who calls themself a cop.

No disrespect to you Pete, this is just my take on the subject based on my situation.

LSUfan71
03-25-2008, 04:40 AM
I started carrying at Church ever since the shooting in Colorado. You never know when you'll need it.

I've recently volunteered for the security detail at Church. My first assignment is monitering a weekly Wednesday night meeting of about 150-200 teens, a minor scuffle broke out a few weeks ago. The local boys have figured out that it's a great place to check out the young ladies.

The organizer mentioned a detail for monitering the main sanctuary for Sunday services but said he would give me more info later. Is anyone else a part of an organized security detail at Church?

Tazer101
03-25-2008, 07:43 AM
Is anyone else a part of an organized security detail at Church?

I'm curious as well,especially for anyone involved with a smaller congregations around 50-100 people.

drjordan
03-25-2008, 07:59 AM
I didn't carry in church until a deacon's wife came to me one Sunday morning and said, "There's a man walking around the parking lot (this was before the service had actually began). He's not coming in...he's just walking around outside in the parking lot. You might want to go talk to him." I replied, "Well, I don't." I think it offended her a bit. But I had no authority to tell him to leave (or to tell him to do anything else)...I had no badge, no gun, no vest, and no jurisdiction. But from then on, I figure if my church is going to treat me like a cop, I'll prepare to be a cop. I've carried my badge, gun, and cuffs ever since.

Georgetime
03-25-2008, 09:37 AM
If I am going past the boundary of my personal "Green Zone", AKA the end of my driveway, I am carrying at LEAST the Glock 27 on the ankle with two full spare magazines and in the colder months the addition of my flight jacket with a .38 snubby in the inside pocket with +P+ hollowpoint ammo. At church sometimes I will even have the wife drive the kids in the POV so I can can take the patrol car and park it in front of the church as a deterrent and a mobile armory, since I have my Mossberg and an AR-15 with 60 Hornaday TAP rounds. And I go to a large church with a lot of cops in attendance, I estimate at LEAST 10 guns in any service and that is a conservative estimate. You can never have too much firepower but you can definately have not enough.

exComptonCop
03-25-2008, 12:05 PM
Is anyone else a part of an organized security detail at Church?

The final straw was the Colorado Springs Church shooting last year. Our church has recently implemented a well organized and well armed undercover security detail, consisting of volunteer off-duty cops.

gapd01
04-09-2008, 08:59 PM
Anytime I step foot outside my house, my weapon is on me. Its annoying at times but better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.

Yeah i agree it's the law of probability when ever you do not have it thats when you'll need it.

KenW.
04-09-2008, 11:31 PM
Any cop that doesn't carry in Church hasn't played Thursday night bingo at mine!

Ralph8119
04-11-2008, 08:05 PM
Theirs no shortest of reilgious nuts out there and they attend church and the bingo hall, you have too be on the ball no matter when and where!
I carried my 38 every where....;)I prayed to my God and S&W

Any cop that doesn't carry in Church hasn't played Thursday night bingo at mine!

topdog63
04-12-2008, 01:48 AM
Yes i carry in church (full size 1911 on the hip w/ extra mag and .38 on the ankle), along with another LEO and her husband, MY PASTOR (a former competition shooter), and several of the Deacons and Elders in the church. There is only myself and one other LEO and the rest have carry permits. If someone does anything stupid at my church they are going to be very surprised. We have a congregation of 150-200 and probably about 2-3 percent carry.

It's pretty funny because I've sold 2 guns in my life and both have been to someone in my church.

You never know when something may happen and I try to follow the "good witness rule" but sometimes the situation may require a little help from "Deputies Smith and Wesson".

NinjaCop
04-12-2008, 08:35 AM
Read below quote:

IAD50
04-15-2008, 06:22 AM
I carry everywhere. It's pretty sad when your own wife gets uneasy about going to the mall and asks you if you have you have Sig with you.

JSOCOP
05-01-2008, 12:19 PM
I always carry, everytime, everywhere. My wifes great grandmother was knifed to death in a church. To crazies, there is no where off limits

phillyrube
05-01-2008, 01:59 PM
If I were a crazed fanatic, and wanted to kill people who were unarmed, where would I go? Mall? School? Church?


'Nuff said.....

Doc_STA
05-01-2008, 09:01 PM
If it is an occasion worth putting pants on there is at least a pistola in my pocket ;)

I don't wear my pants to shul, but if I did, I'd be armed.

In all seriousness, I don't attend synagogue all that often, but when I do on the high holy days, etc - I do carry. There are two places I don't carry - my masonic lodge, and my father's house.

blue lion
05-01-2008, 09:42 PM
I carry everywhere on or off duty, so church is no different.

Michigan
05-04-2008, 04:49 PM
Just wondering how many on here carry off-duty in a church when attending service. I carry just about everywhere except church. Not that I am against it, just that the wife gave me too much of a hard time to the point where I decided against it. I may be rethinking it though. Just wanted to see what your opinions are.

Every time. You're wife won't give you a hard time when the anti-jesus fanatic charges in at noon with an ak-47... and you stop him.

I rather have it and not need it, then not have it and need it.

millimeter
05-05-2008, 11:33 PM
I haven't been to church much recently, but I would consider carrying to church. I just can't picture where I would conceal the firearm with my shirt tucked in.

Looker
05-06-2008, 04:47 AM
<----carries in church.

My wife is catholic, and I go with her when I'm not working Sundays. No telling when some poor previous victimized choir boy is gunna come storming back in one day and I'm not ready.:cool:

grumpyirishman
05-06-2008, 09:23 AM
I have fallen away, so I have not had this dilemma...eek:

Ralph8119
05-06-2008, 11:09 AM
I haven't been to church much recently, but I would consider carrying to church. I just can't picture where I would conceal the firearm with my shirt tucked in.

The oldest cop solution, ankle holster! :cool:

millimeter
05-06-2008, 11:39 AM
Yeah, Ralph8119, I was thinking of purchasing a Ranger Triad Ankle Holster. What kind of ankle holster do you have?

Ralph8119
05-06-2008, 11:58 AM
Yeah, Ralph8119, I was thinking of purchasing a Ranger Triad Ankle Holster. What kind of ankle holster do you have?

Great, I'm retired and hanging out in South America so I'm not strapping for now, but once at home in Florida I use a standard leather ankle for my 38 airweight, with the heat of the day some L.E.O's wear short semi autos and 38 cal ankle holsters, you're question maybe which make, it's all up too the weapon and the fit on you're ankle, you're local gun store will help you with the gun and holster before the sale! :cool:
My best too you! :D

Looker
05-07-2008, 12:55 AM
Great, I'm retired and hanging out in South America so I'm not strapping for now, but once at home in Florida I use a standard leather ankle for my 38 airweight, with the heat of the day some L.E.O's wear short semi autos and 38 cal ankle holsters, you're question maybe which make, it's all up too the weapon and the fit on you're ankle, you're local gun store will help you with the gun and holster before the sale! :cool:
My best too you! :D

Ralph... have a nice cold one for us workin' stiffs. :D

Ralph8119
05-07-2008, 01:04 AM
Ralph... have a nice cold one for us workin' stiffs. :D

Thank you my brother, I'll drink a cold one in the day and a hot one at night:D
God Bless my bros. on duty! :)

marshaldan
05-13-2008, 06:12 PM
I do. Risk exists.

DREGOD
05-13-2008, 09:09 PM
I generally have a handgun with me at all times but there are a few places I just don't carry it. Church is one of them, I just leave it in the car.

cocoa25
05-13-2008, 09:31 PM
I Carry Everywhere All The Time--no Exceptions!!!

Milagro303
05-14-2008, 09:49 AM
Somewhere in the Bible is a passage about; if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and get one...

Ken, or anyone know where this quote can be found?

Milagro303
05-14-2008, 09:53 AM
Also, I carry EVERYWHERE. However, I just started with a new agency that only allows for 2 weapons. You may carry one of either on-duty, and one of either off-duty.... In addition, they limit the type of carry. No ankle holsters, etc. It's difficult- but I would rather have and not need than get shot. :)

KenW.
05-14-2008, 10:57 AM
A good paper has been written, here's a link:

http://www.ecapc.org/articles/RensbeD_HS4_BuyASword.asp

LA DEP
05-17-2008, 05:39 PM
This happened this morning....one more reason to carry

http://www.knbc.com/news/16316655/detail.html

JSOCOP
05-17-2008, 06:55 PM
My wifes great grandmother was knifed to death in a church by a lunatic. I do not go out of my home without my glock 27 40 cal. Not only to protect myself but to protect my family.

millimeter
05-17-2008, 10:12 PM
Something also happened today at a church. Officers should be prepared always when out in the public, there are just too many NUTS out there today!

CG1811
05-17-2008, 10:52 PM
Non starter. Carry it everywhere. Even let the priest know I have it and not to get any ideas.

cantue5
05-18-2008, 01:00 AM
I carry everywhere...my wife thought it might offend someone in the church so I asked the pastor if he would feel uncomfortable. He gave me a look as if I were crazy and said he would prefer if I carried. We have had our fare share of psychos who have come and gone and I feel better prepared armed. I view the people in my church as family and feel a responsibility to help protect them....I don't feel that God is offended by my actions but would look favorably on me for doing so (blessed are the peace makers for they shall be called the sons of God.) because not only am I a peace officer but I am also ordained clergy so I feel double the responsiblilty to protect the people of God. The scripture about selling your garment for a sword is Luke 22:36 but I think there is more to it than just to arm ones self.

Ralph8119
07-27-2008, 02:55 PM
One person is dead and six others were injured Sunday when a man walked into a church in Knoxville, Tenn., and started shooting while kids were performing a play there.

None of the kids was hurt, according to FOX affiliate WATE-TV, who said no one at the Tennessee Valley Unitarian Universalist claimed to recognize the suspected shooter, who was taken into custody.

The children were performing the play "Annie" when the shooter entered around 10:20 a.m. ET. The victims were all taken to the University of Tennessee Medical Center, where one died.

Six people were involved in the shooting. A seventh person was taken to the hospital with a sprained ankle after trying to run away, according to Catherine Howell of WNOX Radio, a FOX affiliate. Howell said the children also went running and three were found hiding at a neighboring church.

Channing Smith, a reporter for WIVK-FM, told FOX News that the suspect had long, blond hair and was in his 40s. He was wearing jeans and a T-shirt.

"Church members say he did not appear to be a member of their church," Smith said. "They aren't sure why he was there."

Thirteen shots were fired before the man was overtaken by members of the church, who held him until police arrived.

"He started firing with a shotgun," Whitney Holmes, a reporter for WATE told FOX News. "He did not give a fight" when church members tried to stop him.

One church member told Smith the shooter may have stopped firing when he ran out of ammunition.

Steve Drevik, a member of the church who was not at the play but arrived as police were taking the suspect away, said he's heard varying estimates of the number of shots, but noted that with a shotgun, "You get that kind of scattering effect so it's quite possible that six or seven injuries doesn't mean six or seven shots.'

Drevik speculated that the suspect could be suffering from mental illness. This kind of incident could have happened in "any church on this street. ... It could be in any school. ... All the more reason we have to take care of those people ... because this is the potential result."

exComptonCop
07-27-2008, 05:19 PM
Good Lord Ralph, red and bold? I'm blind! :(

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25872864/

Ralph8119
07-27-2008, 06:54 PM
Good Lord Ralph, red and bold? I'm blind! :(

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25872864/

LoL, I held on to my crayons when I left the job!!!!! :D

syphon157
07-27-2008, 07:03 PM
Yet another reason to carry in church. I did today in fact.

k2.rocky
07-27-2008, 11:29 PM
I carry EVERYWHERE. My wife used to think I was paranoid, now she understands I'm just prepared. Our society is going to crap and I refuse to put myself in a situation where my family or friends could fall victim to some psychos rage.

Ralph8119
07-28-2008, 12:11 AM
Hey,

This incident is actually just down the road from my church. I always carry my gun with me to church ever since the mall shooting up North. This really hit home with me as I was not at church today (played hookie to play on the boat) and heard it on the news. Originally as info was coming in on the radio they did not mention a church just the road and thought it could have been mine. Very scary thought. We do not have this kind of violence here in K-Town. My thoughts and prayers definitely go out to the victims and their families. This will definitely have many more people carrying guns to church. My hope is that only people licensed to do so will carry and just not some person with a home pistol who may only have shot a time or two in his life and draws out on just someone looking suspicious entering their sanctuary.

Please send our thoughts and prayers from all of us here at officer.com

Nightshift va
07-28-2008, 09:06 AM
I was wondering if this old post would be brought up again after I heard about the shooting. I wonder how the one's that thought carrying in church is immoral feel about it now reading this current tragedy. I guess to some it makes no difference regardless. They just refuse to carry in church regardless. It never really is the facts or knowledge that sway people either way on issue's. It's what people get from the information and choose to do about it.

Ralph8119
07-28-2008, 09:25 AM
I was wondering if this old post would be brought up again after I heard about the shooting. I wonder how the one's that thought carrying in church is immoral feel about it now reading this current tragedy. I guess to some it makes no difference regardless. They just refuse to carry in church regardless. It never really is the facts or knowledge that sway people either way on issue's. It's what people get from the information and choose to do about it.

Good point, I brought it up since this needs too be stopped by a some off duty cop or civilian in a church some day when a sick S.O.B. starts up,
DON'T LEAVE YOU'RE WEAPON AT HOME! :mad:

latenighter
07-28-2008, 11:44 AM
We have several laterals from outside the US at my department. One from London Metro. Some from Australia. Certainly the cultures are different and if you ask those guys, they can tell you that so is society. I am sure Ireland is similar in that guns are not commonly carried by civilians.
.

Australila is very much that way and the thought of anyone taking guns into church would not sit too well. You hit the nail on the head in saying the cultures are different. If i was in the US, i would also carry all the time, but, touch wood there is not much need in Australia as most citizens and criminals dont have guns, there just is not may around. Which is good.

I read one post that said "my church has implemented a concealed carry usher team, consisting of off duty cops" and i my first thought was to laugh and say no fukcing way... Then i thought about it and given the enviroment you guys have to work in, sadly these things are a requirement. Good luck and stay SAFE.

gomets11
07-28-2008, 05:09 PM
Yes, I carry in church.

just joe
07-29-2008, 09:28 AM
I carry in church and I know an officer who attends a church that has armed security teams within its congregation.

dme
07-29-2008, 09:35 AM
I used to attend a church in IN where I worked armed security. We had about 10 uniformed officers outside and nine plain clothed officers inside. If you wanted to work inside you had to be armed. The reason for this is the pastor has had a lot of death threats and several attemts.

Looker
08-03-2008, 11:14 AM
Ralphie's going rainbow senile in his old retired age. :p

Ralph8119
08-03-2008, 12:37 PM
Ralphie's going rainbow senile in his old retired age. :p

Ralphie, Senile, Old, I'm 51 years young, be nice bro!:rolleyes: