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xraodcop
02-04-2008, 11:54 AM
http://www.wkyc.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=82447

(VIDEO AT THIS LINK)



CANTON, Ohio -- Hope Steffey's night began with a call to police for help. It ended with her face down, completely naked and sobbing on a jail cell floor.
Steffey says Stark County sheriff's deputies used excessive force and assaulted her during a strip search 15 months ago, according to a federal lawsuit.

Stark County Sheriff Timothy Swanson denies the allegation.

Steffey's attorney says her clothes, including her underwear and bra, were stripped from her body by at least seven male and female sheriff's deputies and jail workers. She lay face down in handcuffs at the time.

"Hope begged and pleaded with her ... assailants to stop," the lawsuit says. "There was no forcible penetration but Hope felt as if she was being raped."

The sheriff denies this was a strip search.

The sheriff's policy requires officers conducting any strip search to be of the same sex.

Her attorney, David Malik, said Steffey, 41, was never asked to voluntarily remove her clothes.
In an e-mail, Swanson said Steffey was asked to remove her clothes but refused. He said deputies took them off for her own safety.

Swanson declined to comment further, saying the details would come out in court.

Channel 3 News obtained exclusive video of Steffey's night in the Stark County jail cell. You can click the link at the bottom of the page to view it. A warning: it is difficult to watch.

Steffey declined to be interviewed for this story. But her husband, a high school educator, talked to Channel 3's Tom Meyer.

Greg Steffey said his wife is still traumatized. But the couple wants the story told to prevent it from happening to someone else.

"This could be your wife or anyone's wife," Greg Steffey said.

He said he still can't believe this happened to Hope, a 125-pound woman who, earlier that night, turned to police for help.

"You don't treat people like this," Greg Steffey said. "I don't think murderers are treated like this much less people charged with disorderly conduct."

Steffey's ordeal with the Stark County Sheriff's deputies began after her cousin called police for help.

In a 9-1-1 call, her cousin said Steffey had been assaulted by another cousin.

When a Stark County deputy arrived, he asked for Steffey's driver's license. She accidentally turned over her dead sister's license, which she said she keeps in her wallet as a memento, the lawsuit says.

The deputy refused to give the license back and told Steffey to "shut up about your dead sister," according to her attorney.

The sheriff denied that in a written response to the lawsuit.

Eventually, Steffey was arrested and taken to the Stark County Jail. She was later charged with disorderly conduct and resisting arrest.

After her clothes were removed, she was locked in a cell. To stay warm, she wrapped herself in toilet paper. She remained in the cell for six hours.

During that time, she was not allowed to use a phone or seek medical attention for injuries she suffered that night, including a cracked tooth, bulging disc and bruises, the lawsuit says.

The sheriff denies that.

LT Dangle
02-04-2008, 12:39 PM
http://www.wkyc.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=82447

(VIDEO AT THIS LINK)



CANTON, Ohio -- Hope Steffey's night began with a call to police for help. It ended with her face down, completely naked and sobbing on a jail cell floor.
Steffey says Stark County sheriff's deputies used excessive force and assaulted her during a strip search 15 months ago, according to a federal lawsuit.

Stark County Sheriff Timothy Swanson denies the allegation.

Steffey's attorney says her clothes, including her underwear and bra, were stripped from her body by at least seven male and female sheriff's deputies and jail workers. She lay face down in handcuffs at the time.

"Hope begged and pleaded with her ... assailants to stop," the lawsuit says. "There was no forcible penetration but Hope felt as if she was being raped."

The sheriff denies this was a strip search.

The sheriff's policy requires officers conducting any strip search to be of the same sex.

Her attorney, David Malik, said Steffey, 41, was never asked to voluntarily remove her clothes.
In an e-mail, Swanson said Steffey was asked to remove her clothes but refused. He said deputies took them off for her own safety.

Swanson declined to comment further, saying the details would come out in court.

Channel 3 News obtained exclusive video of Steffey's night in the Stark County jail cell. You can click the link at the bottom of the page to view it. A warning: it is difficult to watch.

Steffey declined to be interviewed for this story. But her husband, a high school educator, talked to Channel 3's Tom Meyer.

Greg Steffey said his wife is still traumatized. But the couple wants the story told to prevent it from happening to someone else.

"This could be your wife or anyone's wife," Greg Steffey said.

He said he still can't believe this happened to Hope, a 125-pound woman who, earlier that night, turned to police for help.

"You don't treat people like this," Greg Steffey said. "I don't think murderers are treated like this much less people charged with disorderly conduct."

Steffey's ordeal with the Stark County Sheriff's deputies began after her cousin called police for help.

In a 9-1-1 call, her cousin said Steffey had been assaulted by another cousin.

When a Stark County deputy arrived, he asked for Steffey's driver's license. She accidentally turned over her dead sister's license, which she said she keeps in her wallet as a memento, the lawsuit says.

The deputy refused to give the license back and told Steffey to "shut up about your dead sister," according to her attorney.

The sheriff denied that in a written response to the lawsuit.

Eventually, Steffey was arrested and taken to the Stark County Jail. She was later charged with disorderly conduct and resisting arrest.

After her clothes were removed, she was locked in a cell. To stay warm, she wrapped herself in toilet paper. She remained in the cell for six hours.

During that time, she was not allowed to use a phone or seek medical attention for injuries she suffered that night, including a cracked tooth, bulging disc and bruises, the lawsuit says.

The sheriff denies that.




HHHMMMmm.... Now I am not a rocket scientist, but it sure seems that some part of the story is missing. :rolleyes:

PhilipCal
02-04-2008, 01:05 PM
The tape raises more questions than it answers. The statements from ,media and attorneys (none of whom were present) are simply hearsay. That's sufficient when you're tying to put a spin on the incident.There's far more to this story than we're getting here.

Nikk
02-04-2008, 01:19 PM
Regardless of the reason why they stripped her, should the male officers have been present?

PhilipCal
02-04-2008, 01:29 PM
Regardless of the reason why they stripped her, should the male officers have been present?

Under certain circumstances, entirely appropriate. Keep in mind, that NONE of us were there. There's far more to this story that meets the eye.

Nikk
02-04-2008, 02:27 PM
Under certain circumstances, entirely appropriate. Keep in mind, that NONE of us were there. There's far more to this story that meets the eye.

I always keep that in mind, I don't trust the media as far as I can throw my paper! And you'll never get the complete story. But in my area I don't think the male offers would have been there, based on the video.

Tee.Elle.
02-04-2008, 02:46 PM
Why is there always especially "more to the story" whenever attention is brought upon an incident where the police might possibly be in the wrong?

There's always "more" to any story, that goes without saying.

ChiTownDet
02-04-2008, 03:11 PM
Why is there always especially "more to the story" whenever attention is brought upon an incident where the police might possibly be in the wrong?

There's always "more" to any story, that goes without saying.


Because the Police don't just "grab" someone off the street for no reason and them bring them to the jail for a coed, videotaped, gang-stripping. Although wrapping yourself in toilet paper to keep warm is an inovative, though stupid, idea.

People are not going to tell about their actions that led to the arrest, or their behavior that necessatated several officers having to interact with them in that cell. Telling this would not bode well for their pending criminal case or the "pay day" that they, and their lawyer anticipate from the Sherriff's Dept. down the line...

Tee.Elle.
02-04-2008, 03:14 PM
.................................................. .........

Fëanor
02-04-2008, 03:33 PM
Why was she left naked in the cell? According to the Sherriff, her clothes were removed "For her own safety." How does that work exactly? She was threatening to hang herself with her shirt?

Too much missing info throughout the entire article.

texaschickeee
02-04-2008, 03:44 PM
if you put yourself in certain situations,
and your on the wrog side of the law......
of course your going to scream that somehting not right.

This women had a meltdown and of course gives her version and expects to be handed some cash.

not that strip searching is the way to get it.

stvang01
02-04-2008, 03:50 PM
Im no Officer, but I am a Criminal Justics Student. I believe you usually ask a Subject if they have any "Sharpe Objects or anything that will poke you". etc.

The news anchor seemed surprise that they asked her. But like everyone said, theres more to the story we are not getting.

Sharp
02-04-2008, 04:03 PM
Im no Officer, but I am a Criminal Justics Student. I believe you usually ask a Subject if they have any "Sharpe Objects or anything that will poke you". etc.
Thats officer safety. You usually dont have to do a strip search to find sharp objects. Sounds to me like she just had a meltdown, went berserk, and ended up getting strip searched and all. As mentioned earlier, 99% of that story is simply hearsay. No one outside of those handful of officers and maybe the woman really know what happened.

Smurfette_76
02-04-2008, 04:20 PM
1) she screaming and not complying with instructions.
2) if, in the jail I take my prisoners to, you state you are suicidal or display actions that would lead someone to believe you are a danger to yourself, you will be stripped.
3) I don't care if you're 125 or 225, if you're trying to fight someone as angry as she apparently is, two people cannot control you w/o causing harm to you.
4) there is a possibility the two woman couldn't control her and if no one else is there, who else (other than the men) are suppose to help them.
5) one of the people would have probably been a supervisor and another would have been the one filming.

NOT a pretty video, but we don't have all the facts. What we do know is that incidents like that are NOT pretty.

ateamer
02-04-2008, 04:28 PM
I just love how people with no law enforcement training or experience won't hesitate to come on a law enforcement site and tell longtime officers how the job should be done.

mp1161
02-04-2008, 04:49 PM
LOL @ covering herself with toilet paper to keep warm... they act like she was going to die that day. Gotta love the media

355339
02-04-2008, 04:50 PM
Why is there always especially "more to the story" whenever attention is brought upon an incident where the police might possibly be in the wrong?

There's always "more" to any story, that goes without saying.
Because countless/numerous times (probably in the hundreds), I have witnessed suspects make up stories when I was there and I knew what happened. Suspects do this all the time to throw the attention of off them. I saw a suspect in court identify an officer that was involved in his "assault". The officer was there on another case and during the incident, the officer was on vacation in another state. This was all over the news at first, but when it was PROVEN that the suspect lied about everything, the media did not even put a sentnce on the website about it. The officer had his picture all over the evening news, but there was no follow up story that it was a false complaint.

Its like the boy who cried wolf. I personally see so many suspects file false complaints that I have first hand knowledge of, that it is hard for me to believe the arestee's story anymore. I do realize that there are occasions to where the officer is wrong, but when 99% of the compaints are fabricated, it is very hard for me to believe the suspects.

madchiken
02-04-2008, 05:02 PM
Disclaimer: I've never worked in corrections, but would like to point out two things.

1) Many jails, if you make a suicidal comment or gesure, will remove all of your clothes. Thus leaving you with almost no way to hurt yourself. Some even have special vest/apron/dresses that can not be torn.

2) This was not taped by a camera up in the corner of the room. It was a hand held video camera. Which leads me to believe that this is a small clip of a much longer tape that shows the reason why her clothes were removed. Also, I'm fairly certain the video was made (likely due to agency policy) to document the use of force.

towncop
02-04-2008, 05:22 PM
Well, by the Sheriff's own admission, policy was violated with the males present. I'm betting someone is going to get a whole lot of cash from the county for this one. And I for one, hope she does. We can "what if" this one to death guys. But c'mon.........seriously, NO ONE here sees anything wrong with what happened..."BASED SOLEY ON THE VIDEO ITSELF?"

FarmTruk
02-04-2008, 05:28 PM
I find it difficult to believe, with as many officers present, both male and female, AND the knowledge that their actions were being videotaped, that any procedures were broken. If there were only one or two male officers present with her, and no video, I might be more sympathetic to her story and distrustful of the officers' version of the events. There seems to be too many people involved, and knowingly being taped, for them to callously disregard procedures and violate her civil rights.

I can only assume that things, while by the book, can and do get ugly in jail. That's why I never want to be a "guest" there :lol:

I've heard it sucks to go to jail.

Rev1
02-04-2008, 05:32 PM
This happened kind of in our neck of the woods. Stark county is the county directly north of us and I know some of the people up there.

What I have gathered is that this woman had threatened to kill herself and she was under the influence.

Drugs and/or alcohol, I don't know.

She was clearly not cooperating with the deputies and sorry to those of you in doubt, but if you have never tried to put handcuffs on someone who doesn't want to be handcuffed then there is no way you could possibly know how much of a fight you have. Even with people half your size.

(Especially if you are trying to acomplish the job without damaging the person you are handcuffing.)

I specialize in sex crimes and to call what you see in this video "rape" just grinds my gears.

She was not being groped, mauled or fondled in any way by ANY of the officers. They weren't even making rude or off-color comments to her or to each other. There was no laughing, no clowning around and she was being treated with as much dignity as they could give her at the time.

I know one thing. These officers, like most officers were RESPONDING to her ACTIONS.

They videotaped the whole process themselves, so clearly they believed their responses were justifiable or else we wouldn't have seen the video on the news. Because there wouldn't have been any video at all.

And for the media to imply that the deputies might be hiding something by not providing all of the tape also ticks me off.

Has it ever occurred that this is a pending case and they won't release the complete tape until after the trial?

That's even if there's more tape to see.

It can be summed up this way......

"There is no nice way to arrest a potentially dangerous, combative suspect. The police are our bodyguards; our hired fists, batons and guns. We pay them to do the dirty work of protecting us. The work we're too afraid, too unskilled, or too civilized to do ourselves. We expect them to keep the bad guys out of our businesses, out of our cars, out of our houses, and out of our faces. We just don't want to see how its done."
-Charles H. Webb, Ph.D.


Rev

Tee.Elle.
02-04-2008, 05:59 PM
.................................................. .......................

Mabbottusmc
02-04-2008, 06:09 PM
She was placed in a safety cell. She should have been given paper clothes and no blanket while in the cell. The male officers should have never been there. I'm sure the camera was there because they felt a problem was going to happen. She was asked normal screening questions about weapons and if she felt like she wanted to hurt herself.

My opinion is that the officers or deputy's, if they were going to take her clothes by force, should have been done by all females. Second, I hope they got a psych eval after putting her in the padded room naked. I know plenty of people who call 911 who are the ones who get arrested. Just because u call 911 first doesn't mean that your the victim.

madchiken
02-04-2008, 06:10 PM
Well, by the Sheriff's own admission, policy was violated with the males present. I'm betting someone is going to get a whole lot of cash from the county for this one. And I for one, hope she does. We can "what if" this one to death guys. But c'mon.........seriously, NO ONE here sees anything wrong with what happened..."BASED SOLEY ON THE VIDEO ITSELF?"

I'm just curious where the Sheriff said that policy was violated? I can't seem to find it, was it in another article?


The sheriff denies this was a strip search.

The sheriff's policy requires officers conducting any strip search to be of the same sex.

SkepticAlways
02-04-2008, 06:14 PM
So, does this boil down to the single issue of Male officers were present?

If there were only female officers involved would we be talking about this?

Retired Chief
02-04-2008, 06:16 PM
Everyone booked into the jail takes a shower. Your choice whether you do it the easy way or the hard way. If, as has been said many times here, you act suicidal, you go in a cell by yourself, with no clothes and no blanket. I have never seen a jail where the temperature was kept cold enough that you were in danger of hypothermia.
None of us are in a position to judge base solely on the portion of tape supplied by the Sheriff's Office that the TV station wanted to show. Remember, the media is not in the business to tell the truth, they are in the business to make money. They make money by selling advertising. They charge for advertising based on the number of people who view their offering. Controversy boosts the number of viewers (readers, if print media), which boosts the advertising rates, which brings in more money.
Could the fact that reporters, etc. are motivated by $$ be part of the reason LEOs don't trust the media? Could it be that LEOs are looking for the truth and reporters for the glory? Or, could it just be experience?
At any rate, I suggets you try very hard not to judge anyone based on a 10-second sound bite from the tv station.

Rev1
02-04-2008, 07:35 PM
Let me ask you this.

What if they only had one or two female deputies working at the time?

She was clearly posing a problem with the number of people they had, males included.

Two female officers would not have even been able to keep her prone on the floor. Two male officers would have probably had the same problem.

I'll ask another question.

Do male officers frisk female suspects?

I have people on my department that have a problem with this!

Can you believe that? It will get you killed being shy like that.

I would also be willing to bet that if you were to check out your average psychiatric hospital, there are male orderlies that deal with naked females all the time.

And one more thing.

What if she would have been naked on the street?

Do I, as a male officer, need to wait for female backup before I can place my hands on her and put her under arrest?

I don't think so.

Same thing applies here.

If you feel different then you are sexist.

This has nothing, absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with what the deputies did. What it has to do with is this lady using the media as a sounding board to assist her in obtaining some easy cash.

From what I saw, I bet she has a tough time holding down a job and she could probably use the money.

Rev

D.C. Hughes
02-04-2008, 07:39 PM
Well, by the Sheriff's own admission, policy was violated with the males present.

To be pedantic, persnickity, legalistic and use my PR/media/comm training:

Re-read the original article; the sheriff said policy was for strip searches to be conducted same gender i.e. males search males, females search females.

He didn't exactly address other actions, uses-of-force etc--or who could be present or in a position to directly "observe".

D.C. Hughes
02-04-2008, 07:48 PM
She should have been given paper clothes and no blanket while in the cell. The male officers should have never been there.
{snip}

My opinion is that the officers or deputy's, if they were going to take her clothes by force, should have been done by all females.

Says whom?

Do you know what their budget, inventory, consumables-on-hand, SOP, policy and procedures, general orders, local, county and state laws and staffing and shift assignments are? (Like what if the only women they have on staff were on cam already?)

D.C. Hughes
02-04-2008, 07:51 PM
I'm just curious where the Sheriff said that policy was violated? I can't seem to find it

He said implicitly exactly the opposite--that the strip search policy had not been "violated" as a "strip search" had not been conducted...

D.C. Hughes
02-04-2008, 08:00 PM
Could the fact that reporters, etc. are motivated by $$ be part of the reason LEOs don't trust the media? Could it be that LEOs are looking for the truth and reporters for the glory? Or, could it just be experience?

Um, you need to differentiate between "reporters", photojournalists, and producers, editors, exec. producers and the business side 'o the house--reporters and photojournalists go where they're told, when they're told and turn-in/transmit what they were tasked to turn-in/transmit by dead-line.

What hits the street or goes out over the air is rarely controlled by line reporters and photojournalists--in fact, often you see it before we do in the field.

Tee.Elle.
02-05-2008, 12:03 AM
.................................................. .......................

exdrip
02-05-2008, 12:29 AM
who was holding the camera in the cell?

towncop
02-05-2008, 12:36 AM
I'm just curious where the Sheriff said that policy was violated? I can't seem to find it, was it in another article?

Watch the video again. The sheriff told the reporters that the males being present during her "strip" was clearly a violation of policy.

D.C. Hughes
02-05-2008, 01:02 AM
Semantics.

She was definitely STRIPPED, which is where the issue of the sex of whomever is performing the STRIPPING comes in.

"Semantics" as you called it is what the Law and society are premised upon.

Beyond that, to get to the 'answers' you seek--you really need to pay attention to what they say, and don't say.

There is also a difference between being stripped and strip searched.

And, might as well through this napalm on the camp fire: the number of women employed in corrections in male facilities and/or the custodial care and operations of male prisoners/detainees etc...

Tee.Elle.
02-05-2008, 01:06 AM
.................................................. .......................

D.C. Hughes
02-05-2008, 01:09 AM
Watch the video again. The sheriff told the reporters that the males being present during her "strip" was clearly a violation of policy.

I'll have to take your word for it on the video--they're using a windoze only format apparently...

towncop
02-05-2008, 01:12 AM
I'll have to take your word for it on the video--they're using a windoze only format apparently...
Ahhhh. Got no reason to lie to ya about it, lol. Just saying what they reported.

D.C. Hughes
02-05-2008, 01:16 AM
Ahhhh. Got no reason to lie to ya about it, lol. Just saying what they reported.

I wasn't questioning your veracity.

"Trust, but verify."
-R.W. Regan

towncop
02-05-2008, 01:28 AM
I wasn't questioning your veracity.

"Trust, but verify."
-R.W. Regan
Even a fellow officer????????????? Hmmmmmmmm....

D.C. Hughes
02-05-2008, 01:35 AM
Even a fellow officer????????????? Hmmmmmmmm....

ROFL :)

If I were a LEO; yes.

Since I'm a journalist: if I didn't see it myself--it's "uncorroborated" 'til at least three 'reliable' sources corroborate...

And, being a paratrooper emeritus even more so--can't tell you the number of people I saw get the green-weenie 'cause they signed a hand-receipt w/o verifying that what was on it was actually on hand.

One battalion commander was something like US$30k out-of-pocket because when he accepted the command he just signed all the hand-receipts...

zeplin
02-05-2008, 01:38 AM
I'm not an LEO, but I do know that it is far more difficult to restrain someone if you are trying not to physically harm them in the process. That gal ought to appreciate the fact that those officers involved in trying to restrain her were more interested in protecting her than she was.

scratched13
02-05-2008, 02:06 AM
EVEN WITH just the video and the careful editting and the lame "inside addition" cheeseball graphics and dialogue I see nothing wrong with this. AND NO, my wife would NEVER be in this same situation, she doesn't break the law.

Aaaahhhhh, yes, she keeps the ID for sentimental reasons only. And aaaahahhhhhhh, yes, she only accidentally gave it to the deputy.

Sorry, cop work doesn't look pretty. Never has, never will. Just stay locked up in your houses, sheep and go "bbaaaaaaaa."

Bing_Oh
02-05-2008, 02:34 AM
I can see how this could have been a totally legitimate situation. She was arrested for disorderly conduct and was probably intoxicated. She was booked into the jail and asked if she was suicidal. She gave indications that she was and was stripped of clothing to prevent it from being used to hang herself (normal procedure in many jails). I suspect, from watching the video, that she was uncooperative in this and had to be stripped against her will. That means she had to be physically controlled and they probably needed the assistance of the male deputies to do this without harming her (meaning that either the female deputies were unable to do this or, more likely, they didn't have enough female deputies on duty to do this without additional assistance).

From watching the video, I didn't see any indications of unprofessional or inapproprate behavior by any of the deputies.

Bing_Oh
02-05-2008, 02:36 AM
Well, do you think to her it mattered if she was just being "stripped" or if she was being "strip searched"?

I hope so. Strip searches can, and frequently do, include body cavity searches.

Lawless One
02-05-2008, 05:29 AM
Being that massive blocks of information are left out of the testimony I'm finding it hard to form an opinion either way. So far we've been given:

1. Female suspect met with the Police.
2. ?????
3. DEAR GOD I WAS VIOLATED!

I'd like to know a little bit more information about the subject before thinking anything on the matter.

Smurfette_76
02-05-2008, 05:55 AM
Semantics.

She was definitely STRIPPED, which is where the issue of the sex of whomever is performing the STRIPPING comes in.

Big difference. As a female that has (believe me, unfortunately) done a strip search, it's a bit different. At NO point did I see, nor do I believe, this woman's legs were spread by either herself or another person to examine if anything unnatural was inside her vagina. There is a difference.

Just once, TeeElle, just ONCE get in there and do it. Don't talk it. Do it. You go hand to hand with some p*ssed off person (heck, make it a 125 pound female like this one) when you're just trying to do your job and they are trying to HURT you. Get this. They are not compliant. They do NOT want to do what you are telling them to do. As for it "mattering" to her whether she was stripped (to keep her from committing suicide) or strip searched (to see if she had contraband), I don't know if it mattered. Quite frankly, if she'd shut up and complied we wouldn't be having this conversation. SHE created the drama in her world. It irks the h*ll out of me (as a woman and a cop) to have people referring to this crap as rape. I've held the hand of many a rape victim and the two are NO WHERE near the same.

towncop
02-05-2008, 10:19 AM
Sorry, cop work doesn't look pretty. Never has, never will. Just stay locked up in your houses, sheep and go "bbaaaaaaaa."

Sorry, I don't agree with what the video shows "AT FACE VALUE." And sorry, I don't know how to go "bbaaaaaa." I'm a Sheepdog, all I know how to do is go, "Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr." ;)

Tee.Elle.
02-05-2008, 10:35 AM
Sorry, cop work doesn't look pretty. Never has, never will. Just stay locked up in your houses, sheep and go "bbaaaaaaaa."

Yes, we get it. You're a cop and you protect society and risk your lives and other blah, blah, blah condescension. That's fine and great but it's not the answer to every questionable situation involving law enforcement. It doesn't make you above reproach nor does it automatically justify every action you take.

zeplin
02-05-2008, 10:49 AM
Yes, we get it. You're a cop and you protect society and risk your lives and other blah, blah, blah condescension. That's fine and great but it's not the answer to every questionable situation involving law enforcement. It doesn't make you above reproach nor does it automatically justify every action you take.

Tee.Elle, Why are you so anti-cop? I bet you are anti-military too! Your kind make me want to puke!

Tee.Elle.
02-05-2008, 10:52 AM
Tee.Elle, Why are you so anti-cop? I bet you are anti-military too! Your kind make me want to puke!

LOL...I'm not anti-cop at all. I love law enforcement. I would marry it if I could.

D.C. Hughes
02-05-2008, 11:39 AM
Tee.Elle, Why are you so anti-cop? I bet you are anti-military too! Your kind make me want to puke!

Dissent, healthy skepticism and questioning received knowledge and "it is because it is" statements does not automatically equate with being "anti" anything.

11b101abn
02-05-2008, 11:52 AM
Well, this is my take, based on my experiences in a detention setting.

First, another poster had it right re: suicide/self harm threats. The detainee gets stripped and handed the paper gown.

Second, if the facility is anything like mine was, there are never enough female staff to handle all situations. Mixed sex staff is what you will get when responding to these things. There's no way around it. I have participated in several like this. NO biggie. Was it a policy violation? Sure. But the Safety of the staff ( as well as the detainee) takes precedence over policy.

Third. I agree with an earilier poster in this regard as well: dissent is good. It's not always welcome, but being questioned about our (LE) activities provides transparency. The incident being video taped, in my opinion, demonstrates this. A visual accounting of the activity that tok place in that cell. A proactive step taken by the Sheriff to ensure that all activites are monitored so as to remove any doubt as to what took place.

Just my 0.02

DeputySC
02-05-2008, 11:52 AM
I know if we have a prisoner who is threatening suicide, the jail will take their clothes. If they dont take their clothes off then the guards have no choice but to take them with force. They do get a paper jump suit thing to wear and a thick blanket kind of like the one I saw on this video. Which leads me to think that this woman was being placed on a suicide watch and refused to give her clothes up.

Mixed gender searches have always been a problem and will continue to be. Sometimes we have no female officers present to search female prisoners. We are trained to search them a specific way. And of course we have to check the private areas. I dont like doing it anymore then anyone likes having it done. But it is an officer safety issue. The time we dont search the female, it will be the one that pulls a gun from her private area and puts a bullet in the officers head while he is driving.

I always make sure my car camera is on and the audio is working. I position the female prisoner infront of my car, tell her that I am about to search her and the camera is on. Then on the way to the jail I turn my camera around and film the female in the back seat so ther can be no questions to wether or not any special "stops" were made along the way.

glock17guy
02-05-2008, 12:32 PM
This situation, or something like it, happens every day in American jails. As CO's we have to deal with offender after the officers leave. Every CO that works in a jail setting knows that once you ask the inmate to strip and shower with you watching, the agitated ones will refuse and want to fight. The news reporter is totally off base with this. It is obvious from the video that the woman is resisting the officers. The male officer controlling her hands states many times, "calm down" and to stop fighting. As Smurfette_76 stated, you try and control a 125 woman that is out of control... I really don't want to hurt her, so to restrain her with out injury to her I will need more help than just me ! This all being said, I think the jail might need to invest in a suicide smock of some type to cover her with. I understand that being nude in a cold cell is upsetting. Does anyone believe that as a CO I want to come to work to look at naked inmates, if you do, you shouldn't work in corrections.
I was involved in a situation much like this in the detention center I work in. We normally have, if lucky, one female on a shift. A female came in on resisting and assault on leo charges one night. We had one female on, smaller lady that had just started to work here. As she was conducting the strip search that ALL inmates get when they enter our center, the inmate attacked the officer (only supervisors are allowed to carry OC). Myself and another male officer had to enter the shower room and gain control of a naked female. While it was very uncomfortable, the inmate cause this to happen.. after it was said and done, the inmate claimed that the males entered for no reason... thank god for video

Nightshift va
02-05-2008, 12:44 PM
The strip search requirements are different in various states, even Va's has changed from when I first got into L.E. from being able to on Felony Charges to only being allowed when the issue of having reasonable suspicion to think the arrestee is armed and i don't mean just doing it for general officer safety but the scope of the search has to be supported by something immediate and apparent when considering a strip versus a regular nonintrusive "frisk" or even limited pocket and concealable weapon area's . For US versus corrections anything not an immediate life and death safety concern we need a search warrant for strip searches and a female officer will conduct the searches on females they just have to be able to control their prisoner even if it means more female officers but male parties assisting in a strip search atleast in Va is a no-go. Our role though is different and we as Police Officers have a more strict and limited search versus corrections,not so much because their role is more dangereous but because prisoners not only enter the general population of other dangereous prisoners but the also sit in isolation where a suicide could be easier to carry out. I know there is more to this story than is known, maybe the arrested her because they told her she couldn't posses her dead sisters license or anyone else's license other than her own and she got all emotional about it and freaked out and they arrested her for the disorderly then when she got to the jail in conversation maybe she indicated that she may be armed or said something that the jailers perceived as the possibility of her being armed which would more than justify the strip search no doubt. However, I guess I'll have to stand alone on this one and say in no way is there justification to have any Male assisting in the process where a woman is being strip searched. Yes ofcourse the incident has to be video taped for for civil protection these days and protection of both prisoner and jailer but if the woman is fighting get more women to hold her down even if it takes twenty. It's about being professional by providing dignity even if the prisoner looses her own.:cool:

sinned
02-05-2008, 01:29 PM
From the stand point of someone who is not LE or anti LE for that matter, does anyone think that with what we know from the tape, they could've handled it differently? I understand that there could be legal issues if something happened to a person under arrest, but did they take it too far to ensure a person's safety? That's what I think of it. Granted I wasn't there but should you force someone, anyone naked to make sure they don't hang themselves?
And I want to ask those of you who are LE; if that female was your relative, wife, sister, how would you feel about it? Be honest please.

A great question, and the same one my wife argues and cannot understand the answer to. In an ideal world (as it pertains to this situation) she should have just been locked down until she was calm enough to deal with. Unfortunately society has decided through numerous wrongful death lawsuits that CO’s have the obligation to determine if a prisoner is suicidal and remove all instruments of committing such act. While there is a lawsuit in this case about male deputies assisting with the forceful removal of clothing, there would have been a bigger one if she hanged herself in an isolation cell with her pants.

Sometimes we don't always think things through and the end results of our actions are worse than those which we had set out to prevent. But not for some scumbags family suing a correctional facility somewhere for not removing an inmates clothing, we would not be doing it and thus not having this controversy now. You can thank the general public for this event, they created the condition that set it in motion.

It could never be my wife, daughter, mother, etc.. as they would never be in that situation. If it happened to my sister, I would say I saw it coming and she probably deserved it. I would feel sad for her, but know she brought it on her self as do all the individuals who go through an event like this one.

RR_Security
02-05-2008, 01:51 PM
But not for some scumbags family suing a correctional facility somewhere for not removing an inmates clothing, we would not be doing it and thus not having this controversy now. You can thank the general public for this event, they created the condition that set it in motion.
Exactly. And some of the same people who were saying "SOMEbody should have done something" after an arrestee hanged himself/herself with clothing are now saying "You can't take their clothes! People have RIGHTS, you know."

"Nothing is impossible for the person who doesn't have to do it."

D.C. Hughes
02-05-2008, 02:03 PM
In some way, I agree with you, this is the system we've created and we get to deal with it.

There's the rub laddy: you're "wrong"...

Most of the people who helped create "the system"--the People at large--never actually deal with it. Particularly the unpleasant parts they don't want to see so they hide them in someone's else's town or county out of sight.

It's always interesting to watch John Q. and Jane Q. Public's reaction when "the system" is suddenly inflicted upon them.



In this case, unless the deputies were really short handed and needed to deal with this situation quickly and get back on the streets, there should be no other excuse why they didn't sit her on a corner and calmed her down. And again, I am going by what the journalist reported, maybe she said she had a gun on her or something like that.

You're talking a system that's premised upon: "We're in control, you do what we tell you, when we tell you" and the "normal" work load as well as probably all manner of rules/regs/laws as to intake, handling and processing.

Not to mention: why should princess be treated/processed any different than, say, K'nesha CrackHead???

Beyond that: do you have any idea just how fast someone can do themselves harm or attack you/others if they want?

In the Army if I had the duty, or was just walk-about, and Pvt. Joe/Jane Snuffy said something about "suicide"--THAT'S IT, box 'em up 'til the SDNCO and/or SDO could come beam them up to the 13th floor of the post hospital. No "IFs", "ANDs", "BUTs" or questions asked--immediate, automatic and no downward-departures or field variations.

(And, btw, I also used to teach Level V 'emotionally disturbed' high school students--one blink of the eye and all hell could break loose)

speedkuff
02-05-2008, 02:07 PM
Obviously my experience is all UK based but I have spent a great deal of time acting as a warder/custody assistant and the following points occurr to me;

1. You don't see all the tape - Why isn't the custody area ALL covered by video?

2. Giving her some type of paper suit would be more dignified both for and for custody staff.

3. Why don't we get ALL of the story? As mentioned, Call the Police - Someone else's DL and them Wham!! "The police were horrible to me"....

4. I've seen lots of difficult people coming in and many of them similar in demeanour and see nothing outrageous about the officer's actions.

5. Policies are formed to give guidance on the best way to implement legislation. Policies aren't law in and of themselves. Or is that different in the US?

6. Not ideal having mixed sex officers to remove clothing... But if staffing is a problem and it's not against the law...

D.C. Hughes
02-05-2008, 02:16 PM
2. Giving her some type of paper suit would be more dignified both for and for custody staff.

This presumes:

-They have them as a matter of TO&E
-They have them in-stock and on-hand
-There wasn't a bit of "wanna act like a pillock, this is the result. Ta"

(When was the last time any of us--cop, photojournalist, office worker, cook, teacher, paratrooper, mechanic--had enough supplies, everything we're supposed to have and it be readily available and findable?)

Himso
02-05-2008, 02:29 PM
From the stand point of someone who is not LE or anti LE for that matter, does anyone think that with what we know from the tape, they could've handled it differently? I understand that there could be legal issues if something happened to a person under arrest, but did they take it too far to ensure a person's safety? That's what I think of it. Granted I wasn't there but should you force someone, anyone naked to make sure they don't hang themselves?
And I want to ask those of you who are LE; if that female was your relative, wife, sister, how would you feel about it? Be honest please.

IF they did not forcefully strip her and she then harmed herself such as hanging herself with her own clothes, then the everyone would want to know WHY did'nt the Officers do what they were trained to do? Is being stripped humiliating? Absolutely. Most Officers treat the process professionally and do it as quickly as possible because we don't want to see it either.

Why should this woman be an exception to the process? The thing about a correctional setting is you are always being watched by cameras, other Officers and inmates. The minute you give something to someone, like a break from the process all inmates are required to go through, then everyone wants that same break or wants to know why they have to do it if she does not. An inmate is an inmate. We as Corrections Officers did not put her there and we cannot say whether or not she is guilty or innocent. She is required to listen and comply with the directives given to her. She did not comply and was forced to comply. It would not matter to me as a Corrections Officer why she was incarcerated. And please don't ask me to care about her feelings because her feelings and that of her family and friends do not matter. My function is to perform my duty and try to provide a secure enviroment. In my playbook, everyone gets treated the same.

scratched13
02-05-2008, 03:13 PM
Yes, we get it. You're a cop and you protect society and risk your lives and other blah, blah, blah condescension. That's fine and great but it's not the answer to every questionable situation involving law enforcement. It doesn't make you above reproach nor does it automatically justify every action you take.

There you go! Good girl! Just like a true liberal.:rolleyes: "blah, blah blah" is your reaction to PRODUCTIVE members of society keeping NONPRODUCTIVE (or DE-structive) members of society from taking over. It is people like YOU who would be the LOUDEST voices asking for police if we - police - ever quit en mass.

This is NOT questionable at this point. I see NO proof that anything was done inappropraitely. NONE.

Now, as far as HER behavior ...... that IS ANOTHER STORY.

Tee.Elle.
02-05-2008, 03:23 PM
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Tee.Elle.
02-05-2008, 03:34 PM
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Smurfette_76
02-05-2008, 04:05 PM
My problem is people acting all absurdly confused as to why a woman would possibly have a problem with having her clothes removed in a room where males are present and then put into a jail cell totally nude.

I mean, really? NO ONE HERE except for a reasonable 2 or 3 people could understand why she'd POSSIBLY feel violated? Seriously?

If you don't have these paper clothes or whatever on hand to clothe her, whose fault is that? Is that her fault or is that your fault?

Now wait a minute. Who's fault? She was arrested. At some point she either made action or verbal statement to harm herself and she was disrobed to avoid causing harm to herself. Again, her. HER actions dictated HER arrest. HER actions after arrest dictated the removal of HER clothing. How about we hold HER accountable for wasting tax payer money, not the persons doing their job. I'm so very sorry she feels violated when HER actions resulted in HER humiliation.

Just for curosity sake, what should they have done? We don't have paper gowns in our jail facility. You threaten suicide and you're sitting butt naked for awhile. Would this have been totally acceptable if the male deputies hadn't been there? Do you realize that society has demanded that everyone is treated equal and when they are, the finger pointing begins..."well, SHE shouldn't have been and that person shouldn't have been..." Society creates a no-win situation for those (like LE or not) responsible for dealing with the not-so-pleasant side of humanity. If we treat people differently, we get sued by the side that wanted the special treatment. When we treat people equal, we get sued because mainstream society can't handle the reality. Oh, they like it on paper well enough, but they know very little about the praticality of the actual enforcement. It most certainly would have been nice to have had an all female staff to handle her, but they probably didn't, as not too many woman (in comparison to men) voluntarily sign up for jobs like that. If you personally have never been in the position to restrain someone that is actively resistant, you have NO clue how difficult it is. I'm not talking about fighting. You want to go toe to toe, that's all well and good. Literally taking ahold of someone and RESTRAINING them is hard and we have to do it and NOT hurt the person or get hurt ourselves.

If you think the video and actions are excessive, at what point do you as a citizen hold the woman responsible for her actions? What should they have done?

Tee.Elle.
02-05-2008, 04:20 PM
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Himso
02-05-2008, 04:35 PM
No such thing as technically right in a Jail. They were right, she was wrong. Would you be as sympathetic if she were a poor Black Female busted for a crack addiction. My guess is probably "No". Her right to make alot of decisions for herself were given up at the time of arrest. Hence the terms custody, care and control. If you don't like it, don't go to jail. IT IS THAT SIMPLE. You have no idea how often this happens. It happens all the time. The only reason this is any kind of an issue is because that inmate, yes, INMATE diregarded several verbal orders to do what she was told and she happened to look like your neighbor or friend. If she looked like a hood rat, no one would care. But guess what, behind bars, they all look alike. Bond out, plead out or try to break out if you don't like it.

D.T.O.M
02-05-2008, 04:56 PM
TEE,

I can understand WHY she felt that way. If I was a woman I wouldnt want a bunch of guys taking my clothes off either. From what the news story said as well though, she wasnt completely naked the whole time. She was given what appeared to be a weighted suicide vest.

HOWEVER, Being an ex CO I know how this story goes, and more often then not we are made to look like the bad guys, but its not the case.

Heres what I get from the tape, and the information given to me, and ONLY watching what was going on, not adding the "what ifs"....

An uncooperative, possibly intoxicated female was brought into the jail. When asked if she felt like harming herself (a VERY standard question) she gave an answer that could be seen as possibly yes. She was placed in a cell and her clothes were forcefully taken off by 4 officers (2 female, 2 male)WHILE she was resisting. Officers did NOT grope, abuse, molest, or in anyway act unproffessionaly while taking her clothing. A strip search WAS NOT done, and the officers exited the cell after taking her clothes.

That is really ALL that can be taken from the solid information that is agreed upon by BOTH sides.

Now I have SEEN and BEEN in this situation one too many times, and this is how it usually goes...........

Female is brought in, she is intoxicated and uncooperative. She is patted down and searched by a female officer. When asked if she wants to hurt herself or others, she indicates that she has in the past and could possibly again. This information is given to the booking SGT who gives the order to be placed in an ISO cell. Female is left in handcuffs for officer safety and taken to the ISO cell. En route to the cell the female begins to become combative. Officer assistance is called to help control the female. 5+ officers respond (most male one female) to help control the female. (the larger the number of officers, the easier it is to control the combative subject without hurting them, or us). Out of the now 7 officers helping to escort the female subject only 2 are female because of staffing issues. Subject is under control, placed in the ISO cell and un handcuffed. Subject is ordered to remove her clothing for personal safety. Subject refuses, and is told that is she refuses again that force can and will be used to remove her clothing. Subject again refuses. Female Officers enter cell and issue orders to comply and remove her clothing. She refuses only this time she begins to physically resist the officers. Subject begins to combat the officers and assistance is requested. Due to staffing problems Male Officers are forced to enter the cell to assist in controling the combative female ( for officer and inmate safety) while her clothes are taken for her own safety. Female Subject becomes even more combative at the sight of males entering the cell and becomes difficult to control. The subjects clothes are taken off, the handcuffs removed, and officers back out of the cell as quickly as possible as to ensure their safety after the subject is no longer under control. The subject is NOT strip searched at any time by any officer, male or female.

And there is the USUAL situation. After we would exit we would use teh slot to give them paper clothing. I have heard of some counties not having it though or having run out so they just leave them there like that.


When you have the whole story it looks alot different doesnt it?


And yes, that is a true story that I have had happen a few times.

As for feeling bad for her or bring sympathetic...... yeah, some times I would feel bad...... but then I remember, IF she hadnt become combative and just complied with the orders, then she wouldnt have had to go through what she did. When you are in jail you follow the rules or the rules are forced on you. There is no other way around it. When it comes to officer safety Ill be damned if I let my "feeling bad for her" get in the way of Myself or another officer going home alive or with out any injury.

ericjones80
02-05-2008, 05:26 PM
"Feeling bad" should definitely be thrown out the window here. Whenever somebody (in this case this woman) is told "cooperate or else ____" and they refuse to cooperate, the CO or LEO should do what they have to do to ensure the safety of everyone. Period

alpha1906
02-05-2008, 06:58 PM
I always keep that in mind, I don't trust the media as far as I can throw my paper! And you'll never get the complete story. But in my area I don't think the male offers would have been there, based on the video.

There are always three sides to every story. Yours, mine, and the truth.

You dont trust the medai? I dont know why. I think thats a stereotype people have pof the media. Theyare just doing a job. They could care less who gets the blame.

But I think on a misdemeanor like Disorderly conduct, this was excessive. The lady called the police, how did she wind up in this situation? An overzealous police officer is what I think.

sinned
02-05-2008, 08:01 PM
There are always three sides to every story. Yours, mine, and the truth.

You dont trust the medai? I dont know why. I think thats a stereotype people have pof the media. Theyare just doing a job. They could care less who gets the blame.

But I think on a misdemeanor like Disorderly conduct, this was excessive. The lady called the police, how did she wind up in this situation? An overzealous police officer is what I think.
Try reading cases you were personally involved in and gave information to the media show up in the paper totally spun, then see if they are just doing their job.

You think an overzealous cop started all this? My take on what started it was a woman who just "happens" to carry around an I.D. that doesn’t belong to her and carries it in a place where it could easily be confused with her own gets combative with an officer responding to a domestic (the most dangerous case an officer will ever respond to). While he is doing his investigation she becomes uncooperative and gets arrested for the misdemeanor resisting and all goes downhill from there. The fact that it was a minor violation has nothing to do with how she was treated in the jail. 9 times out of 10 the jailer has no idea what the inmate is being held for, it doesn’t matter.

Its amazing how its always the cops fault, no one is ever held responsible for own actions anymore...I think I was born 30 years too late. :(

Himso
02-05-2008, 08:07 PM
It does not matter what she was charged with. Everyone goes through the same processes upon intake. The guy person charged with Disorderly squats and coughs next to the Murderer.

SgtScott31
02-05-2008, 09:16 PM
You dont trust the medai? I dont know why. I think thats a stereotype people have pof the media. Theyare just doing a job. They could care less who gets the blame.

All I can say is "wow."

It's folks like you that only hear one side of the story, sitting 5 ft from your television set in your living room.

You and your counterparts would be absolutely amazed on how distorted stories get just so the news will have something to talk about at 6pm.

If details of an ongoing investigation or arrest are not provided to the news, they decide to make assumptions and run with them, regardless how erroneous they are. Get a clue.

FarmTruk
02-05-2008, 09:57 PM
...You dont trust the medai? I dont know why. I think thats a stereotype people have pof the media. Theyare just doing a job. They could care less who gets the blame...

I'll defer to the LEOs to respond to the other part of this post, but regarding the media...

Yeah, they DO car who gets the blame. They want to generate as much controversy as possible. That's why they care about the blame.

I have several friends at our local news station. Recently, there was a story aired regarding an attractive, young, white/blonde female teacher who was cell phone videotaped yelling in "ebonic" style language at a group of mostly black HS students.

The reporter confided to me that the edited version shown on the news was wildly distorted, and presented ONLY the students side of the story. The conflict and disturbance they caused was never mentioned. The taping only began after the teacher lashed back at these nearly-adult students. Her method of speaking to them in a manner and language which they surely understood ("ebonic-speak") was played up, and the fact that they would not respond to her earlier requests to stop being disruptive was NEVER mentioned over the air.

White female teacher vs. Black HS students...Black won. Why did it get edited and presented that way?

Because if the true story had been told, it would have been a non-issue, unworthy of even a short mention on the news, much less a week + worth of drawn out coverage, interviews with school officials and local civic "leaders", and demonstrations on the school grounds. It simply would have been a normal, everyday occurance of a teacher attempting to regain control over a group of loudmouth, disruptive students. Our area has a history of racial tension, from counter sit-ins, to Klan shootings, to racial distrust in our local police force. This "non-issue" when presented with just the right slant and/or bias, threw more water on the fire.

The end result was the disruptive students, who had taped the incident with a cell phone which is BANNED from school property, were made out to be innocent babes in the woods. They were "victims" of a verbal "assault" by a white teacher. The teacher, who eventually was cleared of wrongdoing, now however has a stain on her otherwise clean record. The controversy generated by the media's bias increased local viewship. That leads to higher advertising rates. More money in the pockets of the station owners. Publicity for the news program. Wide-spread exposure for the reporter, who was black as well, btw.

So, yeah, I think everyone can have a reason to distrust the "media" and question the motives.

scratched13
02-06-2008, 01:40 AM
I never said she wasn't responsible for her own actions, or wasn't responsible for being there. Nor am I really saying that whatever actions they felt they need to take shouldn't have been taken, if that's what they felt they should do.

Honestly, my problem is with the male deputies being present. That's humilating and demeaning, regardless of what she was arrested for. And really, my problem is with the fact that many people here don't see WHY she would have a problem with that in the first place.

Just because you're technically in the "right" doesn't mean you shouldn't acknowledge or even be sympathetic to other peoples' bad reactions to things, especially in a case like this where it BLATANTLY OBVIOUS why someone would feel the way they do.

Do I think she deserves compensation for it if that's what she plans to seek? No. Do I as a woman feel uncomfortable about it? Yes.

If a facility doesn't have paper clothes, then...get some. Simple solution, really.

You are the type of person who would protest a male officer searching you if you were arrested. SORRY!:rolleyes: But when you are arrested, it isn't Burger King. You can't have it your way. Why should AN OFFICER'S safety be subodinate to your "feelings?????????????" This woman was out of control. The tape was obviously editted to boot. Male officers who were bigger and stronger than female officers were used to minimize the risk of harm to OFFICERS (and to her as well, but I could care less about that in this case). Sorry, you don't want to go to jail where you might lose your privacy ................. then don't break the freakin' law!!!!!!!!!!!!!:mad:

kingsman
02-06-2008, 01:43 AM
I don't know why it was necessary to strip her. She had been searched, she was distraught, so why not shackle her adn chain her to a bench and put her on a suicide watch where an officer could sit and watch her until she became lucid.

Or call in a psychiatrist to make a determination and commit her to a hospital.

While the officer undoubtedly thought they were protecting her and themselves, what psychological damage did they do here? Why are they to make a psychological determination that she is suicidal without a doctor to examine her?

Hell yes she was going to resist! Wouldn't you resist if someone was forcing you to strip and sit naked? Should not the officers have taken steps to calm her rather than scare the **** out of her?

I really feel that someone had an excess of testosterone that night and once the statement to strip was made and refused, every one of the officers had the idea that you ain't gonna dis the officer and get away with it.

scratched13
02-06-2008, 01:45 AM
There are always three sides to every story. Yours, mine, and the truth.

You dont trust the medai? I dont know why. I think thats a stereotype people have pof the media. Theyare just doing a job. They could care less who gets the blame.

But I think on a misdemeanor like Disorderly conduct, this was excessive. The lady called the police, how did she wind up in this situation? An overzealous police officer is what I think.

Oh ......... pulezeeeeeee:rolleyes:

scratched13
02-06-2008, 01:51 AM
I don't know why it was necessary to strip her. She had been searched, she was distraught, so why not shackle her adn chain her to a bench and put her on a suicide watch where an officer could sit and watch her until she became lucid.

Or call in a psychiatrist to make a determination and commit her to a hospital.

While the officer undoubtedly thought they were protecting her and themselves, what psychological damage did they do here? Why are they to make a psychological determination that she is suicidal without a doctor to examine her?

Hell yes she was going to resist! Wouldn't you resist if someone was forcing you to strip and sit naked? Should not the officers have taken steps to calm her rather than scare the **** out of her?
I really feel that someone had an excess of testosterone that night and once the statement to strip was made and refused, every one of the officers had the idea that you ain't gonna dis the officer and get away with it.

Hell yes he was going to resist! Wouldn't you resist if someone was forcing you to put your hands behind your back and then handcuff you? Should not the officers have taken steps to calm him rather than scare the **** out of him?:rolleyes: Just a few changes and now EVERYONE has the right to resist. Great logic!

Nikk
02-06-2008, 01:59 AM
No such thing as technically right in a Jail. They were right, she was wrong. Would you be as sympathetic if she were a poor Black Female busted for a crack addiction. My guess is probably "No". Her right to make alot of decisions for herself were given up at the time of arrest. Hence the terms custody, care and control. If you don't like it, don't go to jail. IT IS THAT SIMPLE. You have no idea how often this happens. It happens all the time. The only reason this is any kind of an issue is because that inmate, yes, INMATE diregarded several verbal orders to do what she was told and she happened to look like your neighbor or friend. If she looked like a hood rat, no one would care. But guess what, behind bars, they all look alike. Bond out, plead out or try to break out if you don't like it.

May I respectfully disagree with this generalization... there really, truly are people who don't divide people by color and class and just see people as people.

We've already stated that there are HUGE holes in the story, so we can't really say either direction what happened or what was right or wrong. We can fill in the blanks based on what we think happened based on our own experiences, but the tape has a lot of blanks. There's nothing on the tape of her disobeying several verbal orders (unless I missed it) because the tape starts after that point would have happened. We're not seeing a lot of things because the tape has that Micheal-Moore-shockumentary type of editing.

The woman probably really does feel violated, and so she is seeking to "not let this happen to another woman". That's a normal reaction for someone who doesn't understand the situation she got herself into. Doesn't mean you should feel sorry for her, just that if you look at both sides you can understand both sides. (I'm a big picture person, I always try to look at all sides of a situation.) Hopefully the entire thing is on tape including what led up to the stripping, what was explained to her, and her refusal to comply. That all the officers were aware they were being recorded is in favor of it having been conducted within policy. I'll wait for more details. (Although usually the details that would fill in the facts aren't exciting and end up buried on page 6, if a follow up story is done at all.)

Nikk
02-06-2008, 02:08 AM
There are always three sides to every story. Yours, mine, and the truth.

You dont trust the medai? I dont know why. I think thats a stereotype people have pof the media. Theyare just doing a job. They could care less who gets the blame.

But I think on a misdemeanor like Disorderly conduct, this was excessive. The lady called the police, how did she wind up in this situation? An overzealous police officer is what I think.

To me there are two sides to every story - that of the opposing views (in this case the officers and the woman) - and the truth is usually somewhere in the middle. I don't have a side because I wasn't there.

No, I don't have a stereotype of the media, I don't trust ANY single source to tell a complete story. Perhaps I don't "rely" on the media for a complete picture would be a better word than "trust". The Jena 6 reports are one excellent example. I paid to have all of the actual documents to get the whole story, and there was a great deal left out, slanted, implied, etc. in the media reports. They tried to connect events that had no connection, compare things that had no comparison, leave out the legal justification for things that they implied had no justification... They were incredibly inaccurate reports. I like complete stories and facts instead of sensationalism. I know, it's really boring, but it's what I like! lol

There is also the fact that one side (in this case the woman) can talk to the media and the other side (in this case the officers) are not allowed to in an ongoing investigation, so you obviously only get one side.

As for how did she wind up in this situation, we have no idea because we have only bits of what happened. That's why I draw no conclusions at this point.

Nikk
02-06-2008, 02:28 AM
The time we dont search the female, it will be the one that pulls a gun from her private area and puts a bullet in the officers head while he is driving.

This is a little off topic but this happened in my state. A woman was patted down and nothing was found. She asked to go to the bathroom (they were still at her housing unit) and the female officer brought her into the bathroom and waited outside the stall. The woman came out of the stall shooting. She went to the bathroom so she could lower her pants to get at her hidden gun. The officer did manage to return fire, but died. They both died.

CityCopDC
02-06-2008, 05:19 AM
Some of you need to learn reading comprehension
Steffey's attorney says her clothes, including her underwear and bra, were stripped from her body by at least seven male and female sheriff's deputies
A prisoner refuses to be searched? UM OK!! Since contraband and weapons can be smuggled inside of the station, to prevent this you MUST be searched, saying you DONT want to be searched is not an option.

Looks like we have a mexican standoff. Lawyer says she was not asked to remove her clothes, the police said she was...

speedkuff
02-06-2008, 06:57 AM
On the point of paper suits, all custody trained staff in our force have just received an email advising us that Detainees are able to use them to manufacture ligatures so you can't always win whatever you do:(

However it should be borne in mind that if we take people into custody and remove whatever ability they have to look after their own needs then WE as LEO's take some measure of responsibility for clothing, feeding and watering 'em and regardless of what we KNOW, they aren't guilty until the court says so...

Now don't get the wrong idea, I'm no kind of liberal but you have to take an effective and pragmatic view of the treatment of people in custody. And we need to take every reasonable precaution to keep them safe and secured in a reasonable and dignified manner otherwise courts eat you alive on the technicalities and the original issue is lost in the media hoo-haa. It's just good sense and being a professional.

I appreciate that there are differences in legal system but I'm surmising that our systems are similar in concept if not precise detail...

Oh, and yes I do think she's a pillock...:D

I have no doubt from watching her that she is some kind of big time drama artist and attention seeker who escalated what might just have been a night in jail and a minor public order charge into some sort of Jerry Springer scenario but it's the nature of our job to deal with these idiots in an effective manner and to be prepared for the flak and to rebut with evidence of our professionalism in court and not in the press.

As for the precise nature of her treatment in jail, wouldn't there be fixed video and sound in the booking area? To confirm if she was or wasn't asked the standard arrival questions about self harm, drug use, medical needs etc?

kingsman
02-06-2008, 09:00 AM
scratched13

There is a difference between being handcuffed and placed in custody and being forcibly stripped of your clothing. The psychology of the individual is involved and you are now dealing with basic human dignity.

Handcuffing does not reduce my dignity.
standing around in my underwear doesn't bother me but won't make me feel comfortable.
Asking me to stand around naked in front of strangers? That is a problem.

Kinda off topic but in the same vein, remember Abu Graib? The military got
their chain yanked short dealing with terrorists by nake them strip. So you
see no problem with stripping an american citizen and making her sit naked
in a cell?

I do. We are dealing with basic human decency here. I have a bit of a problem with this even if she was a serious criminal and not a drunk that had been asaulted.

Yes, they need to be searched, and I don't mean a patdown. I mean searched as we were taught to search a person, male or female. But stripped isn't a search.

towncop
02-06-2008, 09:18 AM
Some of you need to learn reading comprehension
A prisoner refuses to be searched? UM OK!! Since contraband and weapons can be smuggled inside of the station, to prevent this you MUST be searched, saying you DONT want to be searched is not an option.

Looks like we have a mexican standoff. Lawyer says she was not asked to remove her clothes, the police said she was...

That in and of itself alone should NOT constitute what happened to her. Just my .02. ;)

Smurfette_76
02-06-2008, 10:32 AM
Again, I repeat. Hold this woman responsible for her actions. Y'all need to stop confusing strip SEARCH with a removal of clothing to protect someone from possibly taking their life. It's been stated over and over again that there probably weren't more females to handle her, therefore men have to help. Your suggestion of talking to her, while valid in many cases, just doesn't always work and you can't say they DIDN'T try to talk to her, now can you? Don't assume they didn't. They video taped this incident because experience has taught them that they have to. The woman controlled exactly what happened to her. Just like many we deal with, when the reality of what her actions brought upon herself because clear, she didn't like it. This case isn't and SHOULDN'T be about feelings or humiliation or anything. In that case, I'd rather support the civil suit from one of the male deputies that had to touch and SEE her because of her actions.

Nightshift va
02-06-2008, 11:34 AM
scratched13

There is a difference between being handcuffed and placed in custody and being forcibly stripped of your clothing. The psychology of the individual is involved and you are now dealing with basic human dignity.

Handcuffing does not reduce my dignity.
standing around in my underwear doesn't bother me but won't make me feel comfortable.
Asking me to stand around naked in front of strangers? That is a problem.

Kinda off topic but in the same vein, remember Abu Graib? The military got
their chain yanked short dealing with terrorists by nake them strip. So you
see no problem with stripping an american citizen and making her sit naked
in a cell?

I do. We are dealing with basic human decency here. I have a bit of a problem with this even if she was a serious criminal and not a drunk that had been asaulted.

Yes, they need to be searched, and I don't mean a patdown. I mean searched as we were taught to search a person, male or female. But stripped isn't a search.

The only problem I had with the Abu Graib situation was that dumbarse politicans actually think it was considered "tortue" when those wacko's are loppin off innocent civilian noncombatants heads with butter knives so your right it is off topic. I agree with you on the dignity concept. It is unfortunate that the Jail is understaffed so they can not get enough female deputies to complete the job. I also agree with others in here as to the need for strip searches in the jails due to so many problems from the general population of dangereous people not being allowed to have weapons brought into such a setting to the fact that many incarcerated attempt and commit suicide not even mentioning the danger to the deputies themselves. Was the girl abused? Not at all. Was her dignity taken away absolutely. A fact that she herself contributed to by her actions. If there are not enough female's to conduct a strip search on a woman prisoner because of "money" cuts its a symptom created by many of the very people who are whinning about how out of control the search was when they can't hire the staff they need. That said you have to "overcome and adapt'. This department did this by using men to help. A better path would have been to tell her "look you take off all your clothes yourself or we will have no choice but to "tase" you. Then the job can be accomplished by not having to use males. In no way though did I see any "abuse' or anything resembling "gang rape". What you just saw was a person refusing to take her clothes off to insure no weapons existed for NUMEREOUS JUSTIFIABLE reasons assisted in the removal of her clothes. I still and always will agree though that our practice of promoting dignity is an essential part of being a professional regardless of how hard it is to insure it happens wheter it be tools of our trade or extra female jailers to make it a safe search on females.

Nightshift va
02-06-2008, 11:49 AM
I always keep that in mind, I don't trust the media as far as I can throw my paper! And you'll never get the complete story. But in my area I don't think the male offers would have been there, based on the video.

Nikk I agree with you 100% and same is true of my area. And I think that is the only real issue with this whole incident as I have stated in my last two post. That is where the dignity thing comes into the subject. Everything else is based on partial information with the benefit of hindsight. But the males being part of the strip search. Sorry, that would be a big "negative" in our jails.

Nightshift va
02-06-2008, 12:12 PM
No such thing as technically right in a Jail. They were right, she was wrong. Would you be as sympathetic if she were a poor Black Female busted for a crack addiction. My guess is probably "No". Her right to make alot of decisions for herself were given up at the time of arrest. Hence the terms custody, care and control. If you don't like it, don't go to jail. IT IS THAT SIMPLE. You have no idea how often this happens. It happens all the time. The only reason this is any kind of an issue is because that inmate, yes, INMATE diregarded several verbal orders to do what she was told and she happened to look like your neighbor or friend. If she looked like a hood rat, no one would care. But guess what, behind bars, they all look alike. Bond out, plead out or try to break out if you don't like it.

Not exactly knowing who your above quote is directed too I have to say though I understand where you are coming from as far as the issue of her race and looking like a neighbor or friend but brother you are very wrong. I assure you in the many years Ive been a Police Officer Ive dealt with way more "hood rats' than what you refer to but in ALL situations as far as dignity goes most of us strive to keep it intact with everyone. I got into this job to help those that need it the most and most of the time it is the citizens you refer to that receive my assistance way more than the type of person seen in this video. As a Police Officer I have spent more time in the ghetto's and trailer parks helping people and doing so by treating everyone with dignity for someone to just suggest this issue exist because of the type of person involved. I'm not attacking you sorry, just the upset at a suggetion that race has anything to do with it. It may for you or for some but not for me.

sinned
02-06-2008, 12:21 PM
There is a difference between being handcuffed and placed in custody and being forcibly stripped of your clothing. The psychology of the individual is involved and you are now dealing with basic human dignity.Obviously there is a difference, the later positively prevents the detainee from being able to construct a noose out of their clothing. Handcuffing provides them another tool to accomplish the task as many individuals can manipulate their arms to the front once handcuffed. No, the department cannot afford to have staff member sit and watch inmates 24/7.


Kinda off topic but in the same vein, remember Abu Graib? The military got
their chain yanked short dealing with terrorists by nake them strip. So you
see no problem with stripping an american citizen and making her sit naked
in a cell?Yeah, totally different situation. Abu Graib was a political pawn. The prisoners being stripped also had nothing to do with staff safety or the prisoners own safety. It was done with the sole purpose of degrading the prisoners.


I do. We are dealing with basic human decency here. I have a bit of a problem with this even if she was a serious criminal and not a drunk that had been asaulted. As already stated multiple times (apparently you cannot read or comprehend simple concepts), ALL PRISONERS ARE TREATED EQUALLY as required by the constitution and multiple lawsuits over the years.


Yes, they need to be searched, and I don't mean a patdown. I mean searched as we were taught to search a person, male or female. But stripped isn't a search.Anyone going into custody needs to be stripped naked and have a partial cavity search performed. Until you have actually seen a 4” shank inside an inmates body you cannot conceive the lengths people will go to get close to you with a weapon.


What you just saw was a person refusing to take her clothes off to insure no weapons existed for NUMEREOUS JUSTIFIABLE reasons assisted in the removal of her clothes. I still and always will agree though that our practice of promoting dignity is an essential part of being a professional regardless of how hard it is to insure it happens wheter it be tools of our trade or extra female jailers to make it a safe search on females.


But the males being part of the strip search. Sorry, that would be a big "negative" in our jails.
You are LE correct? You are not helping by continuing to call this a “search”. In a search situation this would have been much less acceptable. This was a safety cell placement by a combative inmate. Big difference.

Himso
02-06-2008, 01:30 PM
Not exactly knowing who your above quote is directed too I have to say though I understand where you are coming from as far as the issue of her race and looking like a neighbor or friend but brother you are very wrong. I assure you in the many years Ive been a Police Officer Ive dealt with way more "hood rats' than what you refer to but in ALL situations as far as dignity goes most of us strive to keep it intact with everyone. I got into this job to help those that need it the most and most of the time it is the citizens you refer to that receive my assistance way more than the type of person seen in this video. As a Police Officer I have spent more time in the ghetto's and trailer parks helping people and doing so by treating everyone with dignity for someone to just suggest this issue exist because of the type of person involved. I'm not attacking you sorry, just the upset at a suggetion that race has anything to do with it. It may for you or for some but not for me.



We are pretty much saying the same thing. Sorry if I was not all that clear in my post. I do treat everyone the same. That is the gist of my post. While,who a person is or where they come from makes ablsolutely no difference to me, you or most other people in LE, the media turns it all upside down when they see something that hits home for alot of thier readers or viewers. A white female from the burbs in this situation? The media wants to cause controversy. What better way.

CityCopDC
02-06-2008, 01:37 PM
That in and of itself alone should NOT constitute what happened to her. Just my .02. ;)

Well, we are getting one side of the story so you know EXACTLY what happened to her how? :eek:

BC1260
02-06-2008, 01:42 PM
I watched the video just like everyone else. The policy say's strip searches are to be done by females on females. I did not see a strip search. I saw a violent out of control female who from what I hear threatened to harm herself. She was heving her clothes removed for her own safety. While I don't know the staffing level's of Starke County, it is possible that the only officers available to respond to an out of control prisoner, were the officers seen on video. I also didn't see anything on the video were she was left naked in the cell for hours. I mean come on. The media and the public never embelish their stories for their own gain, now do they. I think as law enforcement professionals and even the citizens on here. We should let the incident play out in court and let the whole truth come out. If the officers in question were wrong then they and their Sheriff will have to answer for it. Until then let's give them the benefit of the doubt and support them, until it is proven that they were wrong. Then still support them, because that is who we are and what we do for our brothers and sisters in arms.

Jat1668
02-06-2008, 01:46 PM
Isn't giving a false name to police a crime? That would have landed her in jail. Which would have made them ask her if she planned on killing herself. Which would have led them to ask her to strip. Which would have led to her refusing. Which would have led to using as many officers as ness. to conduct a strip search or whatever it's called if it isnt a search. I would bet a dollar that ever female officer in that jail was there.

------------------------------------------

Here is how it would have went if I called the police under sim. circumstances.

Off. :What happened here.
Me: My cousin beat the tar outta me.
Off.: Are you ok? Do you need medical assistance?
Me: No I think I'll be ok.
Off.: Have yo ubeen drinking?
Me: Yeah. I have had about 5 beers over the span of about 3 hours. I had a good buzz going before that numbnutz punched me.
Off.: Can I see your ID?
Me: Sure.
I hand the officer MY ID.
Off.: Ok I'll be right back.
Off. comes back.
Off.: Do you know where your cousin was heading?
Me: Nope.
Off.: I need a description.
I give a description.
Off.: Alright. We will keep a look out.

LOOK!!! Im not in JAIL. I fix my nose and move on. Party is kinda ruined though....WOOT! I keep my clothes on and that is best for everybody. Trust me.

Gulf Po Po
02-06-2008, 01:51 PM
I'll defer to the LEOs to respond to the other part of this post, but regarding the media...

Yeah, they DO car who gets the blame. They want to generate as much controversy as possible. That's why they care about the blame.

I have several friends at our local news station. Recently, there was a story aired regarding an attractive, young, white/blonde female teacher who was cell phone videotaped yelling in "ebonic" style language at a group of mostly black HS students.

The reporter confided to me that the edited version shown on the news was wildly distorted, and presented ONLY the students side of the story. The conflict and disturbance they caused was never mentioned. The taping only began after the teacher lashed back at these nearly-adult students. Her method of speaking to them in a manner and language which they surely understood ("ebonic-speak") was played up, and the fact that they would not respond to her earlier requests to stop being disruptive was NEVER mentioned over the air.

White female teacher vs. Black HS students...Black won. Why did it get edited and presented that way?

Because if the true story had been told, it would have been a non-issue, unworthy of even a short mention on the news, much less a week + worth of drawn out coverage, interviews with school officials and local civic "leaders", and demonstrations on the school grounds. It simply would have been a normal, everyday occurance of a teacher attempting to regain control over a group of loudmouth, disruptive students. Our area has a history of racial tension, from counter sit-ins, to Klan shootings, to racial distrust in our local police force. This "non-issue" when presented with just the right slant and/or bias, threw more water on the fire.

The end result was the disruptive students, who had taped the incident with a cell phone which is BANNED from school property, were made out to be innocent babes in the woods. They were "victims" of a verbal "assault" by a white teacher. The teacher, who eventually was cleared of wrongdoing, now however has a stain on her otherwise clean record. The controversy generated by the media's bias increased local viewship. That leads to higher advertising rates. More money in the pockets of the station owners. Publicity for the news program. Wide-spread exposure for the reporter, who was black as well, btw.

So, yeah, I think everyone can have a reason to distrust the "media" and question the motives.


That sounds interesting. Do you have any links to the story?

scratched13
02-06-2008, 01:54 PM
She was wrong, broke the law, let herself out of countrol to the point that officers HAD to do what they did. THEY EVEN FREAKIN' VIDEO TAPED IT TO SHOW WHAT THEY DID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:mad: Liberals stand up and be happy that if you get your way, now bad guys (girls:rolleyes:) coming into jail may now be able to hide weapons and contraband and may hurt themselves (so their family can sue)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:rolleyes:

Gulf Po Po
02-06-2008, 02:15 PM
Well, by the Sheriff's own admission, policy was violated with the males present. I'm betting someone is going to get a whole lot of cash from the county for this one. And I for one, hope she does. We can "what if" this one to death guys. But c'mon.........seriously, NO ONE here sees anything wrong with what happened..."BASED SOLEY ON THE VIDEO ITSELF?"

WOW. Just wow. :rolleyes:

Gulf Po Po
02-06-2008, 02:35 PM
I never said she wasn't responsible for her own actions, or wasn't responsible for being there. Nor am I really saying that whatever actions they felt they need to take shouldn't have been taken, if that's what they felt they should do.

Honestly, my problem is with the male deputies being present. That's humilating and demeaning, regardless of what she was arrested for. And really, my problem is with the fact that many people here don't see WHY she would have a problem with that in the first place.

Just because you're technically in the "right" doesn't mean you shouldn't acknowledge or even be sympathetic to other peoples' bad reactions to things, especially in a case like this where it BLATANTLY OBVIOUS why someone would feel the way they do.

Do I think she deserves compensation for it if that's what she plans to seek? No. Do I as a woman feel uncomfortable about it? Yes.

If a facility doesn't have paper clothes, then...get some. Simple solution, really.

I can see your point here.

Even with paper clothes though (which we have), it isn't always that easy.

We had a female put into a cell and instructed to remove her clothing and put the paper gown on. Guess what she did? Refused and began to attack officers. Chemical spray was used, and she decontaminated herself using toilet water, and continued to fight officers who tried to get her clothing away. Not exactly someone you can reason with.

On a side note, I love the sheep husband telling the media what happened. He WASN'T there. He needs to shut the f*** up.

Gulf Po Po
02-06-2008, 02:44 PM
Well, we are getting one side of the story so you know EXACTLY what happened to her how? :eek:


+1

lawisme2002
02-06-2008, 02:56 PM
Im Joe Citizen at this point. No legal training as of yet! I have read this entire post and get ****ed off every time I read some of the crap that is written here.

In my opinion as "joe Citizen" this lady got what she deserved. I have read alot about her diginity! Why is it the LEOS job to keep her diginity in tact. She let that go when she acted like a horses **S. Also, I could be mistaken but the domestic was probably enhanced due to the alochol or other substance she may have been using. She carries her dead sisters ID?? I can only think of one reason to do this..to pretend to be her. I have stuff from my deceased relatives but I don't carry it around with me.

I am so sick of the public expecting things to be equal. "innocent until proven guilty" unless you are a cop!! If I get pulled over (which I don't cause I don't break the law) I do exactly as I am told. Why? Cause I dont 1. want a bullet in me or my car. 2. Dont want to get my clothes dirty by having to lay face down. 3. Dont want to put other people at risk.

Im sorry if I acted like this person or just an idiot in general I would hope the cop would do what was necessary to keep us both safe. Throw me on the ground, put me in cuffs...put me in a room naked..at least I will live to breathe another day....ok..I could go on forever cause it really ****es me off but i am done for now..Let the bashing begin.

towncop
02-06-2008, 03:52 PM
WOW. Just wow. :rolleyes:
:rolleyes:

Entre Nous
02-06-2008, 04:32 PM
Can anyone explain why it's better to have a suicidal person strip than to restrain them in some way? Wouldn't handcuffing them to something and having their legs shackled actually be more effective than having them get naked? I guess I'm just trying to understand how a naked prisoner is so much less able to hurt themselves than a restrained one.

At least half the imminently suicidal people I talk to mention some kind of past sexual abuse or rape. I would imagine that, for any of them, simply being forced to strip, and be naked and vulnerable would send them on a downward spiral and increase thier self-destructive ideation.

Even just the idea of keeping someone in a cold cell with no way to stay warm seems inordinately cruel. So while I'm okay with the actions of the officers (after reading Smurfett's explantaion), I can't help question the whole policy of nudity being used to prevent suicide. There must be a better way. :confused:

madlib
02-06-2008, 04:40 PM
Officer safety is top priority. If those female COs could not handle the suspect, would you want that naked female suspect to get beaten up and hurt just for "policy"?

sinned
02-06-2008, 04:41 PM
Can anyone explain why it's better to have a suicidal person strip than to restrain them in some way? Wouldn't handcuffing them to something and having their legs shackled actually be more effective than having them get naked? I guess I'm just trying to understand how a naked prisoner is so much less able to hurt themselves than a restrained one.


Because if left in restraints there is a possibility the inmate would suffer asphyxiation and die. This is also the reason most agencies are regulating how people are restrained, passing policy against the use of “hog tying” and trying to prevent keeping restraints for any unnecessary length of time.

Entre Nous
02-06-2008, 04:51 PM
Because if left in restraints there is a possibility the inmate would suffer asphyxiation and die. This is also the reason most agencies are regulating how people are restrained, passing policy against the use of “hog tying” and trying to prevent keeping restraints for any unnecessary length of time.I see. Thank you.

Wile E. Coyote
02-06-2008, 04:59 PM
Wouldn't handcuffing them to something and having their legs shackled actually be more effective than having them get naked?

There must be a better way. :confused:Fighting against handcuffs can cause bruising, bleeding, and long-term damage to tendons and cartelidge even in a short amount of time. My TFC was torn in less than a second in training by another officer practicing a take-down, and that was nowhere near the force of someone fighting against the cuffs.

If there was a better way, I'm sure it would be put to use instead. I'm all for shooting them with elephant tranquilizer darts myself.

Entre Nous
02-06-2008, 05:34 PM
If there was a better way, I'm sure it would be put to use instead. I'm all for shooting them with elephant tranquilizer darts myself.I think I would prefer the elephant darts to going through the scene in the video. :eek:

I wonder what methods they use in the mental hospitals to keep suicidal people safe, and whether any of those could realistically be implimented in the jails.

CityCopDC
02-06-2008, 05:38 PM
WOW. Just wow. :rolleyes:

Trust me Gulf, I said the SAME thing.... :eek:

CityCopDC
02-06-2008, 05:42 PM
Can anyone explain why it's better to have a suicidal person strip than to restrain them in some way? Wouldn't handcuffing them to something and having their legs shackled actually be more effective than having them get naked?

If you are shackled to something, you can cause more injury to yourself trying to get out of those restraints. Bruises, scrapes cuts, yadda yadda ya. In some instances asphixyation.

Smurfette_76
02-06-2008, 05:48 PM
There will never be one way that pleases everybody. Step one: Stay out of jail.

Wile E. Coyote
02-06-2008, 05:52 PM
Funny how easily some people forget step one.

cbr600_kitty
02-06-2008, 06:06 PM
My mom actually lives in Canton, and sent me this link this afternoon . . .

Apparently the Sheriff asked to have the tape reviewed : http://www.cantonrep.com/index.php?ID=398312

towncop
02-06-2008, 07:00 PM
Trust me Gulf, I said the SAME thing.... :eek:
:rolleyes:

Jat1668
02-06-2008, 07:48 PM
There will never be one way that pleases everybody. Step one: Stay out of jail.

Step three: Profit!

Stewie
02-06-2008, 08:48 PM
scratched13

There is a difference between being handcuffed and placed in custody and being forcibly stripped of your clothing. The psychology of the individual is involved and you are now dealing with basic human dignity.

Handcuffing does not reduce my dignity.
standing around in my underwear doesn't bother me but won't make me feel comfortable.
Asking me to stand around naked in front of strangers? That is a problem.

Kinda off topic but in the same vein, remember Abu Graib? The military got
their chain yanked short dealing with terrorists by nake them strip. So you
see no problem with stripping an american citizen and making her sit naked
in a cell?

I do. We are dealing with basic human decency here. I have a bit of a problem with this even if she was a serious criminal and not a drunk that had been asaulted.

Yes, they need to be searched, and I don't mean a patdown. I mean searched as we were taught to search a person, male or female. But stripped isn't a search.

Do you work in Corrections? I can tell you don't! If I have a Prisoner come into booking and claims that he is going to kill or harm himself I will smock him. By smocking I mean taking ALL articles of clothing away, and you can wear this pretty blue suit naked underneath. If they try and smash their head against the door or any punching the wall I will place you in the restraint chair for up to 8 hours. Try and assault me or any other Deputies we will kick your *** and charge you with Assault on a Police Officer drunk or not.

Either comply with our orders or suffer the consequences since I will NOT ask twice. This woman is a total F up and she got what she deserved.

EDIT: To clarify we would do the same since we have 2 Female Deputies and around 32 Male Deputies in our whole Department. I'm sorry if you feel violated that I'm the opposite gender, but when you fight with my Brothers or Sisters you got what's coming. Jail is not a fun happy place, and yes I am a dick but that is what I am trained to be.

towncop
02-06-2008, 10:59 PM
and yes I am a dick but that is what I am trained to be. You're trained to be that way? But I'm sure, only when the situation is warranted, right?? I don't recall being trained to be "that way" by my instructors over 10 years ago, but hey, who knows what they're training people these days. :D

Stewie
02-06-2008, 11:13 PM
You're trained to be that way? But I'm sure, only when the situation is warranted, right?? I don't recall being trained to be "that way" by my instructors over 10 years ago, but hey, who knows what they're training people these days. :D

Yes I am an easy going person until you go against the grain on purpose, and then I have to be that guy. :) Just do what your told and I won't ever have to be that guy, but unfortunately people seem to think they can do whatever they want even in cuffs. ;)

towncop
02-06-2008, 11:28 PM
Yes I am an easy going person until you against the grain on purpose, and then I have to be that guy. :) Just do what your told and I won't ever have to be that guy, but unfortunately people seem to think they can do whatever they want even in cuffs. ;)
I'll agree with you 100% on that Stewie!! Listen, for everyone on here, this is obviously an issue that we, as LE officers, will not agree on. This isn't the first topic that's been a heated one and no doubtably will it be the last. So with that said, no need for us to be hatin' each other. (No Stewie, this wasn't directed toward you). Peace all!

scratched13
02-07-2008, 01:44 AM
Can anyone explain why it's better to have a suicidal person strip than to restrain them in some way? Wouldn't handcuffing them to something and having their legs shackled actually be more effective than having them get naked? I guess I'm just trying to understand how a naked prisoner is so much less able to hurt themselves than a restrained one.

At least half the imminently suicidal people I talk to mention some kind of past sexual abuse or rape. I would imagine that, for any of them, simply being forced to strip, and be naked and vulnerable would send them on a downward spiral and increase thier self-destructive ideation.

Even just the idea of keeping someone in a cold cell with no way to stay warm seems inordinately cruel. So while I'm okay with the actions of the officers (after reading Smurfett's explantaion), I can't help question the whole policy of nudity being used to prevent suicide. There must be a better way. :confused:

BECAUSE!!!!!!!!!!!!:mad: God, I hate saying stuff like this. Because ....... if the freakin' police had put her in cuff and left her there in that state, she WOULD HAVE PUT BRUISES ON EVERY CONTACT POINT. Now what do you have? A POS husband crying tears that his poor innocent wife was cruelly hancuffed and leg ironed like a caged animal. They put the cuffs on and they cut off circulation. LOOK at the pictures of her bruises! Oh, the humanity!:mad:

At least if she was stripped and left in a cell THERE WOULD BE ONLY ONE PERSON THAT COULD HAVE HURT HER ------ HER!

I get so tired of people 2nd guessing the police WITH NO REASONABLE OR RATIONAL SUGGESTIONS (other than let her go).:mad:

scratched13
02-07-2008, 01:48 AM
I think I would prefer the elephant darts to going through the scene in the video. :eek:

I wonder what methods they use in the mental hospitals to keep suicidal people safe, and whether any of those could realistically be implimented in the jails.

No you wouldn't. No. Just plain no.

IF you were arrested and you acted like this, then you would get what you got. No choices as to the consequences. Only choices as to whether or not you deserved these consequences.

towncop
02-07-2008, 01:53 AM
No you wouldn't. No. Just plain no.

IF you were arrested and you acted like this, then you would get what you got. No choices as to the consequences. Only choices as to whether or not you deserved these consequences.
You don't know that Scratched. Entre Nous probably would like elephant darts to being stripped naked. I get tired of people 2nd guessing what other people would prefer. ;) :D

scratched13
02-07-2008, 01:54 AM
Chief stated in the article:

On Wednesday, Swanson issued a statement saying he "has reviewed this incident and feel comfortable that my deputies performed their rather unpleasant tasks in this incident in a professional manner that is consistent with the requirements of the law.

"However, an outside, objective review of our actions is always welcome and necessary to maintain the public's trust in this office. ... After conferring with counsel and Stark County Prosecutor John Ferrero's office, an official request has been made of Attorney General Marc Dann ... (to) review all circumstances surrounding the arrest and incarceration of Hope Steffey."

While I am relieved he is saying that things were done correctly, WHY NOT have the balls to say that and JUST STAND BY IT?!?!?!?!:mad: Why go soooooooooooooooooo far out of your way to try and please those THAT WILL NEVER be pleased?!?!?!?!?

towncop
02-07-2008, 02:12 AM
:mad: Why go soooooooooooooooooo far out of your way to try and please those THAT WILL NEVER be pleased?!?!?!?!?

Because those are the very people that we, as law enforcers, HAVE to answer to. ;)

Stewie
02-07-2008, 02:13 AM
Can anyone explain why it's better to have a suicidal person strip than to restrain them in some way? Wouldn't handcuffing them to something and having their legs shackled actually be more effective than having them get naked? I guess I'm just trying to understand how a naked prisoner is so much less able to hurt themselves than a restrained one.

At least half the imminently suicidal people I talk to mention some kind of past sexual abuse or rape. I would imagine that, for any of them, simply being forced to strip, and be naked and vulnerable would send them on a downward spiral and increase thier self-destructive ideation.

Even just the idea of keeping someone in a cold cell with no way to stay warm seems inordinately cruel. So while I'm okay with the actions of the officers (after reading Smurfett's explantaion), I can't help question the whole policy of nudity being used to prevent suicide. There must be a better way. :confused:

Why don't we shackle their legs? What good will that do? I can still kick with leg shackles on. If we cuff them say to the drain they will struggle with the cuffs, and then they will have bruises all over their wrist. Why take their clothing? Because they can hang themselves with articles of clothing! The point of the Smock is that they CANNOT remove it without help, you cannot rip or tear it unless you have a sharp object. Yes I can strap a person to the restraint chair, but sometimes tying up one Deputy 24/7 checking on the person every 10 minutes is not worth it if they have not actually done the self mutilation.

You know what about being raped and all that good stuff, look where you are...That's right you're in jail and now you're saying that you are gonna hurt yourself, you just said the magic words for me to take all your clothing and into a smock. These are NOT upstanding citizens they are prisoners and everyone is treated in how they act. Yes Detox cells are cold, but you know what? Don't come to jail! I'm sorry but you're gonna have to bleed a tear drop out of my eye's because it aint happening!

I understand some Citizens think our methods are cruel, but you're not the one that is liable if something were to happen to them while locked up! We take every precaution we can to keep all inmates as safe as possible.

I never understood why people never blame the dumbass that brought it on herself in how she was treated!! :confused: Then again all is good in the land of the Sheeple.

kingsman
02-07-2008, 02:37 AM
Stewie, I could never work in corrections. Not if it turns you into an uncaring person.

Please note. They did not give her a smock. They left her naked in the cell for 6 hours.

Even so. Cuffs leave bruises. Leg Irons leave bruises. restraints leave marks on humans when they try and twist out of them.

Now. if she was under suicide watch, she needed to be watched 24 hours a day. constant supervision. Recorded on some type of medium. If she hurts herself, the evidence is there. If she begins to choke, you had better have a deputy in the cell real quick.

But if you take away a persons dignity, you will create an enemy for life. With a lifer or regular returning criminal, that might not matter. But whatever your motivation with an average citizen, you do not need to make any enemies. Not only is she and her family now anti-police, but a large number of the public will side with her, and when you need to deal with them, they are not going to treat you with any respect.

Bureau of Prisons sent their trainees to the same location I went to for their acadamy. While our acadamy was 16 weeks, their acadamy was only 3 weeks.

I realize that many sheriff deputies start in the jail system before they go to patrol, but you do not have to let it program the basic decency out of you.

Entre Nous
02-07-2008, 02:40 AM
BECAUSE!!!!!!!!!!!!:mad: God, I hate saying stuff like this. Because ....... if the freakin' police had put her in cuff and left her there in that state, she WOULD HAVE PUT BRUISES ON EVERY CONTACT POINT. Now what do you have? A POS husband crying tears that his poor innocent wife was cruelly hancuffed and leg ironed like a caged animal. They put the cuffs on and they cut off circulation. LOOK at the pictures of her bruises! Oh, the humanity!:mad:

At least if she was stripped and left in a cell THERE WOULD BE ONLY ONE PERSON THAT COULD HAVE HURT HER ------ HER!

I get so tired of people 2nd guessing the police WITH NO REASONABLE OR RATIONAL SUGGESTIONS (other than let her go).:mad:

Scratched, thank you but my question was already answered previously. If you're just venting, then that's fine, but please note that I have not second guessed the police and specifically stated that I was questioning the policy itself, and not the police enforcement of it. To request information is not to "second-guess".

I am not familiar with elephant darts, but I do know that I would rather be shot with a tranquilizer dart, even a large one, than go through that scene.

I'm not sure who you're so angry with, but if you're angry over my post then you really have no justifiable reason to be.

Jellybean400
02-07-2008, 03:04 AM
Being that massive blocks of information are left out of the testimony I'm finding it hard to form an opinion either way. So far we've been given:

1. Female suspect met with the Police.
2. ?????
3. DEAR GOD I WAS VIOLATED!

I'd like to know a little bit more information about the subject before thinking anything on the matter.

Yeh...really. But i've enjoyed reading all the responses, so i gotta leave one.

Something is missing for sure, like what she did to get arrested, and when she became "suicidal" if she did.

Also - remember - isnt it still innocent until proven guilty? Yes, she was under arrest, but she wasnt serving prison time. I understand that those in Corrections have to do what they have to do in Prisons to keep the peace and keep things under control.

I also understand how they may have not had females to take her clothes off her. That's not possible in all departments, especially if it had to be done quickly. I just think its pretty disturbing that so many would act like they dont understand why she might not feel good about it afterward, and might feel violated. Crime or no crime.

I can see society going to he** in alot of different ways.

equinox137
02-07-2008, 03:08 AM
Because those are the very people that we, as law enforcers, HAVE to answer to. ;)

The Sheriff already does that when he goes up for reelection.

Mstangfk
02-07-2008, 03:10 AM
Yeh...really. But i've enjoyed reading all the responses, so i gotta leave one.

Something is missing for sure, like what she did to get arrested, and when she became "suicidal" if she did.

Also - remember - isnt it still innocent until proven guilty? Yes, she was under arrest, but she wasnt serving prison time. I understand that those in Corrections have to do what they have to do in Prisons to keep the peace and keep things under control.

I also understand how they may have not had females to take her clothes off her. That's not possible in all departments, especially if it had to be done quickly. I just think its pretty disturbing that so many would act like they dont understand why she might not feel good about it afterward, and might feel violated. Crime or no crime.

I can see society going to he** in alot of different ways.


pretty sure i saw at least two females helping strip her down...one was pretty cute too..:cool:

she was being booked in, and something she said or did made the officers think that she was a suicide risk, ergo, you can either strip, or be stripped... your choice.

Jellybean400
02-07-2008, 03:42 AM
pretty sure i saw at least two females helping strip her down..

OK...i re-read and saw that it was the fact that ALSO males were present. I see now :)

theconstipated1
02-07-2008, 05:26 AM
I am so sick of the public expecting things to be equal. "innocent until proven guilty" unless you are a cop!! If I get pulled over (which I don't cause I don't break the law)

.

You claim you don`t break the law ,then you have this at the bottom:

07/01/2007 - DQ'ed for traffic offense/warrant in `99

Stewie
02-07-2008, 11:28 AM
Stewie, I could never work in corrections. Not if it turns you into an uncaring person.

Please note. They did not give her a smock. They left her naked in the cell for 6 hours.

Even so. Cuffs leave bruises. Leg Irons leave bruises. restraints leave marks on humans when they try and twist out of them.

Now. if she was under suicide watch, she needed to be watched 24 hours a day. constant supervision. Recorded on some type of medium. If she hurts herself, the evidence is there. If she begins to choke, you had better have a deputy in the cell real quick.

But if you take away a persons dignity, you will create an enemy for life. With a lifer or regular returning criminal, that might not matter. But whatever your motivation with an average citizen, you do not need to make any enemies. Not only is she and her family now anti-police, but a large number of the public will side with her, and when you need to deal with them, they are not going to treat you with any respect.

Bureau of Prisons sent their trainees to the same location I went to for their acadamy. While our acadamy was 16 weeks, their acadamy was only 3 weeks.

I realize that many sheriff deputies start in the jail system before they go to patrol, but you do not have to let it program the basic decency out of you.


Sorry I cannot view the video since I don't have some plugin or something, however from what I gathered they did everything right as possible. When someone is placed in our Detox Cell our Control can watch them via cameras, but when you place them in restraints(chair,handcuffs,leg shackles, belly shackles) you tie up a Deputy to watch her.

I don't see how anyone took her dignity away, nobody raped her, humiliated her, made fun of her, it was all in efforts to get her under control and safe. I'm perfectly fine with anyones family hating us, hell just last week after I took an Inmate back to his pod after visitation. The inmate said "My Mom and Dad hates you pigs, you guys locked away her son". I can really care less if anyone does not like or respect me me because I wear a uniform. Also if the uninformed Sheeple side with this poor soul's bad experience so what? I'm still going to do my job the same way regardless if the outside think were mean or cruel. As long as I stay within the Jail Standards I am covered if something is to happen.

Who said this job has programmed the decency out of anyone? Like I stated before I am an easy going person, UNTIL the prisoner purposely goes against the grain and requires me to be that guy.


Also - remember - isnt it still innocent until proven guilty?

Yes but I have yet to see a truly innocent prisoner, hell everyone is innocent at least that's what they told me! ;)


I just think its pretty disturbing that so many would act like they dont understand why she might not feel good about it afterward, and might feel violated.

You always get the option to comply, but it sounded like she didn't want to comply and received the consequences. Those who have worked in Corrections understand that you either do it or we do it for you. I think it's ridiculous how the finger points to the people attempting to do their jobs, and the lady is supposedly the victim of the whole thing.

scratched13
02-07-2008, 11:31 AM
Because those are the very people that we, as law enforcers, HAVE to answer to. ;)

No, no .......... NO! This is not a customer service oriented industry. You don't get it your way. "The customer is always right" DOES ...... NOT ...... APPLY!

scratched13
02-07-2008, 11:36 AM
Stewie, I could never work in corrections. Not if it turns you into an uncaring person.
Please note. They did not give her a smock. They left her naked in the cell for 6 hours.

Even so. Cuffs leave bruises. Leg Irons leave bruises. restraints leave marks on humans when they try and twist out of them.

Now. if she was under suicide watch, she needed to be watched 24 hours a day. constant supervision. Recorded on some type of medium. If she hurts herself, the evidence is there. If she begins to choke, you had better have a deputy in the cell real quick.

But if you take away a persons dignity, you will create an enemy for life. With a lifer or regular returning criminal, that might not matter. But whatever your motivation with an average citizen, you do not need to make any enemies. Not only is she and her family now anti-police, but a large number of the public will side with her, and when you need to deal with them, they are not going to treat you with any respect.

Bureau of Prisons sent their trainees to the same location I went to for their acadamy. While our acadamy was 16 weeks, their acadamy was only 3 weeks.

I realize that many sheriff deputies start in the jail system before they go to patrol, but you do not have to let it program the basic decency out of you.

That's right ..... YOU can't work in corrections. It takes a strong person to do the jobs that other weaker people are ABLE to do. If you can't do the dirty job that must be done, then STEP BACK and let those that can do that job ....... AND STOP CRITICIZING THEM FOR DOING WHAT YOU CAN'T.

She probably was the most pro-law enforcement person on the block!:rolleyes:

scratched13
02-07-2008, 11:39 AM
Scratched, thank you but my question was already answered previously. If you're just venting, then that's fine, but please note that I have not second guessed the police and specifically stated that I was questioning the policy itself, and not the police enforcement of it. To request information is not to "second-guess".

I am not familiar with elephant darts, but I do know that I would rather be shot with a tranquilizer dart, even a large one, than go through that scene.

I'm not sure who you're so angry with, but if you're angry over my post then you really have no justifiable reason to be.

Yes, I am venting on you because right then you were the face of those that think that they "know" but have no real idea what they are taking about.

Uuuuuhhhhhh, so you say about the elephant dart. Until you wake up with the headaches and nausea and the painful injection site. You'd still sue.

scratched13
02-07-2008, 11:45 AM
Yeh...really. But i've enjoyed reading all the responses, so i gotta leave one.

Something is missing for sure, like what she did to get arrested, and when she became "suicidal" if she did.

Also - remember - isnt it still innocent until proven guilty? Yes, she was under arrest, but she wasnt serving prison time. I understand that those in Corrections have to do what they have to do in Prisons to keep the peace and keep things under control.

I also understand how they may have not had females to take her clothes off her. That's not possible in all departments, especially if it had to be done quickly. I just think its pretty disturbing that so many would act like they dont understand why she might not feel good about it afterward, and might feel violated. Crime or no crime.

I can see society going to he** in alot of different ways.

Innocent people don't go to jail on any regular basis. That is a movie myth. I have yet to take a person to jail that I made up charges on.

Sure, she probably felt bad. BUT THAT WAS HER DOING. SHE chose to play like that. She should have stayed within the rules, otherwise.

Oh, I have fought and taken people to jail who did not feel good about it afterward. Does that mean I should have NOT taken them to jail, or put handcuffs on them.

It's funny. I will arrest a thug who beat his girlfriend with a bat in front of "his kids" and he will ask that I don't put the cuffs on him because "I want to walk out like a man" with dignity.:rolleyes:

scratched13
02-07-2008, 11:50 AM
PERFECT ANALOGY:

I woman has chest pains after a traffic accident and is semi conscious. She is strapped on a stretcher and is put on an ambulance. They tear open her shirt and expose her chest ...... to ensure her safety by doing that medic stuff. SHE GETS OFFENDED!

We think that the medics are wrong because they are male????????

Wile E. Coyote
02-07-2008, 11:56 AM
How come the men never sue when a female searches or restrains them? Especially when they won't stop laughing at what they find.

d10mack
02-07-2008, 12:03 PM
www.whitestkids.com

Stewie
02-07-2008, 12:04 PM
How come the men never sue when a female searches or restrains them? Especially when they won't stop laughing at what they find.

Because it's perfectly OK because were males and were supposed to be able to take it. Just like it's stupid that it's OK for a Female Deputy to enter a male dayroom with one in the shower, but NOT OK for a Male Deputy to enter a female dayroom with one in the shower. :confused:


That's right ..... YOU can't work in corrections. It takes a strong person to do the jobs that other weaker people are ABLE to do. If you can't do the dirty job that must be done, then STEP BACK and let those that can do that job ....... AND STOP CRITICIZING THEM FOR DOING WHAT YOU CAN'T.

Agreed 100%

DH21187
02-07-2008, 12:17 PM
I love it when someone who is drunk, abusive, and tries to assault UNIFORMED police officers gets upset because they didn't get treated the way they wanted to afterwards. Too F..ing bad.

I am so sick and tired of people who think they can do or say anything they want to us without there being a repercussion for it, like getting your drunk a55 arrested, thrown in jail, and strip searched after you threaten to kill yourself.

Once again the public is only shown the part of the video that favors the poor drunk's side of the story. We don't EVER see her spitting, biting, or kicking at the people trying to restrain her. Maybe if her husband did some more penetration to her on his own she wouldn't have been such a drunken mess in the first place trying to get it else where.


Oh, and that blond corrections matron was HOT...I wish I could be strip searched by her.

Nikk
02-07-2008, 01:06 PM
Maybe if her husband did some more penetration to her on his own she wouldn't have been such a drunken mess in the first place trying to get it else where.

Huh? Trying to get it elsewhere? Where'd that come from?

Entre Nous
02-07-2008, 01:09 PM
Yes, I am venting on you because right then you were the face of those that think that they "know" but have no real idea what they are taking about.I am happy to be there for you to vent on. :) But you see, I DON'T know, and I realize that I don't. That's why I asked.

This scenario did not appear to be pleasant for anyone, including the officers. It would make things easier on everybody if a better way could be found. Who would be more qualified to express ideas about that than people who work in the field? So that's why this seems like an appropriate place to conjecture about possible alternatives.

Please understand that to question is not to judge, and to question LE policy is not to question you or your colleagues personally.

DH21187
02-07-2008, 01:20 PM
Huh? Trying to get it elsewhere? Where'd that come from?

If you watched the news clip, her hubby states it was like she was raped without being penetrated. The word "penetrated" seems to be something they focused on in the article and news stories that followed. They are trying to make this much more than it was to get some cash out of the taxpayer's coffers once again. You can't have rape without penetration in most states. Using the words "rape and penetration" makes the story much more interesting that she was just strip searched and makes the legitimate actions of the officers seem unjustified when coupled with the video of a screaming woman having her clothes forcibly removed. People hear those words and will automatically feel sorry for the drunk who caused all of this in the first place.

Entre Nous
02-07-2008, 01:21 PM
Because it's perfectly OK because were males and were supposed to be able to take it. Just like it's stupid that it's OK for a Female Deputy to enter a male dayroom with one in the shower, but NOT OK for a Male Deputy to enter a female dayroom with one in the shower. :confused:That seems wrong to me too. There should be the same standards for both males and females.

But you guys should still be aware that we females have a lot more issues about our bodies than guys do. From the time we're little we have it drilled into us that our precious modesty has to be preserved. Though I admit that every individual is different, in general I think it is more traumatic to women when they have to be seen naked.

Nikk
02-07-2008, 01:31 PM
If you watched the news clip, her hubby states it was like she was raped without being penetrated. The word "penetrated" seems to be something they focused on in the article and news stories that followed. They are trying to make this much more than it was to get some cash out of the taxpayer's coffers once again. You can't have rape without penetration in most states. Using the words "rape and penetration" makes the story much more interesting that she was just strip searched and makes the legitimate actions of the officers seem unjustified when coupled with the video of a screaming woman having her clothes forcibly removed. People hear those words and will automatically feel sorry for the drunk who caused all of this in the first place.

Oh, actually he says she said it "felt" like that, which is normal for someone who doesn't understand the consequences of their actions. I don't think anyone is saying it was "like" rape, but that the feeling of violation was there. She claims her answer to the question of self harm would not mean she was intending to harm herself. Plus it isn't common knowledge that if they think you'll harm yourself they'll take your clothes, so it would seem rather bizarre. However, we have no idea at all if that was the case because the Q&A is not on the portion of the tape, nor is her being asked to remove her clothes on her own, or being told why.... there's really very little on the tape that tells you anything.

Mstangfk
02-07-2008, 01:56 PM
Oh, actually he says she said it "felt" like that, which is normal for someone who doesn't understand the consequences of their actions. I don't think anyone is saying it was "like" rape, but that the feeling of violation was there. She claims her answer to the question of self harm would not mean she was intending to harm herself. Plus it isn't common knowledge that if they think you'll harm yourself they'll take your clothes, so it would seem rather bizarre. However, we have no idea at all if that was the case because the Q&A is not on the portion of the tape, nor is her being asked to remove her clothes on her own, or being told why.... there's really very little on the tape that tells you anything.



precisely, and thats the fault of the media isnt it.


they got the whole video, the could ahve aired the whole thing.

Nikk
02-07-2008, 02:20 PM
precisely, and thats the fault of the media isnt it.


they got the whole video, the could ahve aired the whole thing.

...and bore people with the facts? what kind of story would that be? [/sarcasm]

Actually I'm still not sure people would totally understand, unless there was a running commentary explaining procedures and their reasoning. You have to realize it is a very difficult thing for the general public to fathom.

lawisme2002
02-07-2008, 03:15 PM
You claim you don`t break the law ,then you have this at the bottom:

07/01/2007 - DQ'ed for traffic offense/warrant in `99


Exactly...the time I had to deal with them I learned a lesson. Even when I did get a speeding ticket and didn't pay for it which turned into a warrant I didn't act like a fool when I had to face reality. Now 8 years later, I don't break the law and havent for some time.

towncop
02-07-2008, 03:56 PM
No, no .......... NO! This is not a customer service oriented industry. You don't get it your way. "The customer is always right" DOES ...... NOT ...... APPLY!
Scratched, you can "no, no.......NO!" me all you want. This IS a service industry we provide. We do answer to the public, especially a sheriff. I never said the customer is always right. But when the customer (the public at large) asks, you're accountable. :rolleyes:

Stewie
02-07-2008, 04:03 PM
Scratched, you can "no, no.......NO!" me all you want. This IS a service industry we provide. We do answer to the public, especially a sheriff. I never said the customer is always right. But when the customer (the public at large) asks, you're accountable. :rolleyes:

Yes we are public servants and yes we do the public a service, and if one would ask me why I did something I would try my best to explain it. I'd rather have a Citizen ask why and get a real accurate answer from me, than having them form their own and spread misinformation around. Your Chief/Sheriff should be backing you if you acted within policy and procedures, and attempt to educate the public of why you did what you did.

the Chools
02-07-2008, 07:19 PM
Fact is, jail IS like that. EXACTLY like that.

Jail is about power, dominance, control, bullying, belittling, big egos and little brains, getting off on being able to beat up on people who can't fight back - and it's all legal. For those who work there, that is.

In addition, cops will lie, "tweak" the truth, change stories, and cover up for one another.

Been there. Seen it. Had it done to me. (the lieing part, not the strip part)

There are always other ways to handle situations such as this. But it takes a calm, rational, thinking officer, who has his ego under control. IMO, jail guards like to avoid using humane ways to interact with prisoners - they prefer to use force and domination.

I hope something sweeping comes out of this - a sweeping movement of change in the way prisoners are treated. There are MANY abuses that take place in jails and prisons, and hardly anyone knows about it. Of those who do know, (like the guards) very few care. Of those capable of making changes, very few WILL.

Why is jail so cold? Why is there no clean drinking water? Why, in a place full of HIV, Hep C, TB, and etc., is there no soap? Why can a woman not have a sanitary napkin? I'll tell you why - it's because jail is about power, dominance, control, bullying, belittling, big egos and little brains, getting off on being able to beat up on people who can't fight back - and it's all legal.

Stewie
02-07-2008, 08:23 PM
Oh man this is a good one, here goes!


Jail is about power, dominance, control, bullying, belittling, big egos and little brains, getting off on being able to beat up on people who can't fight back - and it's all legal. For those who work there, that is.

Jail is about keeping the peace, and yes some Deputies/Officers have big ego's which all jobs have. Dominance? Uh do you know what prisoner means? Control? Indeed we control everything otherwise how would a jail work? Able to beat up people who can't fight back? Excuse me but if I beat up somebody for no reason I will be arrested for assault and lose my job. So no that's not legal in any State!


In addition, cops will lie, "tweak" the truth, change stories, and cover up for one another.

Ah the myth of the "Blue Wall of Silence" here, no sorry if I am under oath in court I will NOT lie even to save another Deputies behind. All we have is our word in this kind of work, and once you lose your word you may as well quit!


There are always other ways to handle situations such as this. But it takes a calm, rational, thinking officer, who has his ego under control. IMO, jail guards like to avoid using humane ways to interact with prisoners - they prefer to use force and domination.

I'm not gonna deny and say this never happens in jails, but I do know that this blanket statement is unfair and mostly false! Sometimes force needs to be used when the Inmate will not comply with a lawful order, so I will use the correct amount of force dictated by our Use of Force Policy.


I hope something sweeping comes out of this - a sweeping movement of change in the way prisoners are treated. There are MANY abuses that take place in jails and prisons, and hardly anyone knows about it. Of those who do know, (like the guards) very few care. Of those capable of making changes, very few WILL.

Again I won't deny this never happens in the US Jail systems, but in ours you won't make it far if you intentionally break the Policy and Procedures. If anything our Inmates are treated TOO GOOD! Hell they sleep all day long, get free TV, books and magazines, get a meal catered to them 3 times a day, and all while NEVER having to work for it.


Why is jail so cold? Why is there no clean drinking water? Why, in a place full of HIV, Hep C, TB, and etc., is there no soap? Why can a woman not have a sanitary napkin? I'll tell you why - it's because jail is about power, dominance, control, bullying, belittling, big egos and little brains, getting off on being able to beat up on people who can't fight back - and it's all legal.

Why is jail so cold? Our thermostats are set at 75 degrees, sounds pretty warm to me? No soap? We issue all soap at 0600 hours on the supplies cart, and if you don't get up to get it forget you. Female inmates have access to all feminine products 24/7. The water is also suitable for consumption since I drink it at work, and my limbs have not fell off yet.

"it's because jail is about power, dominance, control, bullying, belittling, big egos and little brains, getting off on being able to beat up on people who can't fight back - and it's all legal"

Well I'll tell you why! You're full of **** Chools, unless you were imprisoned in Mexico then I'll believe you. :eek:

J. Slacker
02-07-2008, 09:05 PM
Well, do you think to her it mattered if she was just being "stripped" or if she was being "strip searched"?

I'm sure it did matter...In fact, I'm postive. Otherwise she wouldn't be making a fuss about this.


EVEN WITH just the video and the careful editting and the lame "inside addition" cheeseball graphics and dialogue I see nothing wrong with this. AND NO, my wife would NEVER be in this same situation, she doesn't break the law.

Aaaahhhhh, yes, she keeps the ID for sentimental reasons only. And aaaahahhhhhhh, yes, she only accidentally gave it to the deputy.

Sorry, cop work doesn't look pretty. Never has, never will. Just stay locked up in your houses, sheep and go "bbaaaaaaaa."

I don't always agree with scratched13 (maybe its the matter of fact approach;) ), but this kind of sums it up. None of those deputies/COs went into that situation thinking it would be easy or pretty. None of them expected everything to be peaches & cream.


Big difference. As a female that has (believe me, unfortunately) done a strip search, it's a bit different. At NO point did I see, nor do I believe, this woman's legs were spread by either herself or another person to examine if anything unnatural was inside her vagina. There is a difference.

Just once, TeeElle, just ONCE get in there and do it. Don't talk it. Do it. You go hand to hand with some p*ssed off person (heck, make it a 125 pound female like this one) when you're just trying to do your job and they are trying to HURT you. Get this. They are not compliant. They do NOT want to do what you are telling them to do. As for it "mattering" to her whether she was stripped (to keep her from committing suicide) or strip searched (to see if she had contraband), I don't know if it mattered. Quite frankly, if she'd shut up and complied we wouldn't be having this conversation. SHE created the drama in her world. It irks the h*ll out of me (as a woman and a cop) to have people referring to this crap as rape. I've held the hand of many a rape victim and the two are NO WHERE near the same.

I couldn't agree more...


My problem is people acting all absurdly confused as to why a woman would possibly have a problem with having her clothes removed in a room where males are present and then put into a jail cell totally nude.

I mean, really? NO ONE HERE except for a reasonable 2 or 3 people could understand why she'd POSSIBLY feel violated? Seriously?

If you don't have these paper clothes or whatever on hand to clothe her, whose fault is that? Is that her fault or is that your fault?

I think (and people can correct me if I'm wrong) that the confusion comes from the fact that this does, unfortunately happen fairly regularly. I say unfortunately because we in law enforcement have our hands tied in situations like these. As has been stated numerous times in this thread, the lady's comments led the jailers to believe that she was suicidal/potentially a threat to herself and/or others. Her apparent level of impairment (alcohol/drug induced) inhibited her ability to behave logically.

If they had left her alone because she did not want them there and a weapon (razor blade, etc) were concealed in her waistband, bra, or anywhere else on her person she could have used it to carry out any threat made. Then the husband would complain that the officers involved failed to act. Police work is the ultimate Catch 22 in many situations. We are damned if we do and damned if we don't.

I don't believe (as an outsider looking into that situation) that the officials acted unprofessionally or did anything demeaning. Does anyone like to be told what to do while under arrest? Of course not. Do we as LEOs like the thought of having to unclothe another person for his or her safety? Nope. It appears that they followed P&P as directed. If they (male or female staff present) were going to commit acts or impropriety, do you honestly believe that they would videotape it? The fact is (to reiterate a point already discussed) that it did not appear that there were enough female staff present to safely handle the situation alone. Not saying that they couldn't take the woman down, just that they could not do so without risking injury to themselves or to her. Its a fact, we often times do not have enough female staffing on a given shift (no matter where we work) to handle same-combative individuals.

I'm sure the lady involved in this incident is "normally a nice lady....wouldn't hurt anyone...etc. The fact is, she wasn't behaving that way on the day in question. She requested (not by word, but by action) that the situation unravel the way it did. It doesn't make it comfortable or PC, and I'm sure that its unsoothing to hear/read such a statement. But if you, or I, or anyone else try to brain-f*** this thing (if in a similar situation) instead of acting, the resulting "analysis paralysis" could likely result in far greater consequences.

Bottom line (and to paraphrase what scratched already said) Police work ain't pretty. We are sworn to deal with and confront the worst elements of society at times. We are often charged to deal with the best people at their lowest moments. But we do have to deal with them in a professional manner. I don't think anyone involved in this incident (combatants or LEOs) would have been able to gift wrap this situation with a pretty bow. It would stink like bull**** to someone, somewhere.

iMarkVideo
02-07-2008, 10:53 PM
Why can't they just be monitored with cameras? Why don't they go through the type of detectors at airports for weapons? I can think of many alternatives. If jails are that understaffed there are always solutions.

Gulf Po Po
02-07-2008, 11:04 PM
Fact is, jail IS like that. EXACTLY like that.

Jail is about power, dominance, control, bullying, belittling, big egos and little brains, getting off on being able to beat up on people who can't fight back - and it's all legal. For those who work there, that is.

In addition, cops will lie, "tweak" the truth, change stories, and cover up for one another.

Been there. Seen it. Had it done to me. (the lieing part, not the strip part)

There are always other ways to handle situations such as this. But it takes a calm, rational, thinking officer, who has his ego under control. IMO, jail guards like to avoid using humane ways to interact with prisoners - they prefer to use force and domination.

I hope something sweeping comes out of this - a sweeping movement of change in the way prisoners are treated. There are MANY abuses that take place in jails and prisons, and hardly anyone knows about it. Of those who do know, (like the guards) very few care. Of those capable of making changes, very few WILL.

Why is jail so cold? Why is there no clean drinking water? Why, in a place full of HIV, Hep C, TB, and etc., is there no soap? Why can a woman not have a sanitary napkin? I'll tell you why - it's because jail is about power, dominance, control, bullying, belittling, big egos and little brains, getting off on being able to beat up on people who can't fight back - and it's all legal.



I was going to go through this statement and pick it apart.... but to tell you the truth, I am tired of attempting to educate the ignorant.

Our jail is kept cold for two reasons:
1. Cold keeps the bacteria at bay, and prevents infections.
2. Cold keeps the prisoners calm, and all they want to do is lay in their bunks.

I love the whole "big egos, little brains" comment. I could stack up my degrees, credentials, certifications, etc., and blot out the sun in the crazy world you seem to be living in.

Gulf Po Po
02-07-2008, 11:05 PM
Oh yeah... We also have huge tubs of hand pump sanitizer accessible to all inmates.

scarredpelt
02-07-2008, 11:57 PM
Why can't they just be monitored with cameras? Why don't they go through the type of detectors at airports for weapons? I can think of many alternatives. If jails are that understaffed there are always solutions.

Mark, in many cases the monitor is in addition to physical well being checks. This in no way removes the possibility that someone may hurt themselves before an officer can stop the subject.

Just as an example, when I was a CO I was 20 feet from an inmate who hung himself while in administrative confinement (in a Florida Prison that is the equivalent of Jail while Disciplinary Confinement would be 'prison'). I had just eyeballed him...I mean I had JUST LOOKED at him not 7 seconds prior. Because of what happened afterward and/or time passed I don't know/recall the exact circumstances of how he did it. What I do know is that he manged to confide in another inmate in AC his intentions and when this inmate heard the 'thump' he began screaming at me that this inmate was killing himself.

I seem to recall that he survived but the fact is that he managed to hurt himself enough to require a lengthy convalescence at the taxpayer expense and I will gladly support the actions of these officers and their efforts to keep a person safe even if I think things could have been done better. (Note I don't know how either but just like every other dreamer I believe in a better way.:rolleyes:)

As for weapon detectors, not all weapons are made out of metal. Not to mention that there is other contraband that we try to keep out. And lest we forget THIS WAS NOT A SEARCH! It was the result of a policy designed through EXPERIENCE (that is demonstrated situations vs. hypothetical) to protect a person in custody who is now a ward of the state, in other words their well being is my responsibility, from hurting themselves. Oh and as for this particular person, I feel that someone who claims that they might hurt themselves has more issues than being 'embarrassed'. I truly hope that they can help her come to grip with troubles of her own making.

iMarkVideo
02-08-2008, 12:40 AM
Mark, in many cases the monitor is in addition to physical well being checks. This in no way removes the possibility that someone may hurt themselves before an officer can stop the subject.

Just as an example, when I was a CO I was 20 feet from an inmate who hung himself while in administrative confinement (in a Florida Prison that is the equivalent of Jail while Disciplinary Confinement would be 'prison'). I had just eyeballed him...I mean I had JUST LOOKED at him not 7 seconds prior. Because of what happened afterward and/or time passed I don't know/recall the exact circumstances of how he did it. What I do know is that he manged to confide in another inmate in AC his intentions and when this inmate heard the 'thump' he began screaming at me that this inmate was killing himself.

I seem to recall that he survived but the fact is that he managed to hurt himself enough to require a lengthy convalescence at the taxpayer expense and I will gladly support the actions of these officers and their efforts to keep a person safe even if I think things could have been done better. (Note I don't know how either but just like every other dreamer I believe in a better way.:rolleyes:)

As for weapon detectors, not all weapons are made out of metal. Not to mention that there is other contraband that we try to keep out. And lest we forget THIS WAS NOT A SEARCH! It was the result of a policy designed through EXPERIENCE (that is demonstrated situations vs. hypothetical) to protect a person in custody who is now a ward of the state, in other words their well being is my responsibility, from hurting themselves. Oh and as for this particular person, I feel that someone who claims that they might hurt themselves has more issues than being 'embarrassed'. I truly hope that they can help her come to grip with troubles of her own making.

I hear ya....loud and clear.....thanks

Smurfette_76
02-08-2008, 06:21 AM
Maybe if her husband did some more penetration to her on his own she wouldn't have been such a drunken mess in the first place trying to get it else where.



Oh, boy. Listen, DH, contrary to what you think, your penis is not some magical wand that rights all the wrong in a female's world. Same goes for all the others out there. It's offensive to woman that you imply lack of being penetrated is the reason this woman was wrong. That's an incorrect and lewd comparison. This particular woman was arrested because she chose to break the law, nothing having to do with sex or the lack thereof. :rolleyes:

Himso
02-08-2008, 12:59 PM
Fact is, jail IS like that. EXACTLY like that.

Jail is about power, dominance, control, bullying, belittling, big egos and little brains, getting off on being able to beat up on people who can't fight back - and it's all legal. For those who work there, that is.

In addition, cops will lie, "tweak" the truth, change stories, and cover up for one another.

Been there. Seen it. Had it done to me. (the lieing part, not the strip part)

There are always other ways to handle situations such as this. But it takes a calm, rational, thinking officer, who has his ego under control. IMO, jail guards like to avoid using humane ways to interact with prisoners - they prefer to use force and domination.

I hope something sweeping comes out of this - a sweeping movement of change in the way prisoners are treated. There are MANY abuses that take place in jails and prisons, and hardly anyone knows about it. Of those who do know, (like the guards) very few care. Of those capable of making changes, very few WILL.

Why is jail so cold? Why is there no clean drinking water? Why, in a place full of HIV, Hep C, TB, and etc., is there no soap? Why can a woman not have a sanitary napkin? I'll tell you why - it's because jail is about power, dominance, control, bullying, belittling, big egos and little brains, getting off on being able to beat up on people who can't fight back - and it's all legal.



Sorry. Next time you are inside, I'll give you an extra tray. Just to let you know my ego is in check.

scratched13
02-08-2008, 05:17 PM
I am happy to be there for you to vent on. :) But you see, I DON'T know, and I realize that I don't. That's why I asked.

This scenario did not appear to be pleasant for anyone, including the officers. It would make things easier on everybody if a better way could be found. Who would be more qualified to express ideas about that than people who work in the field? So that's why this seems like an appropriate place to conjecture about possible alternatives.

Please understand that to question is not to judge, and to question LE policy is not to question you or your colleagues personally.

Yes, you are right. There is a better way: don't get arrested - when arrested do not go crazy or fight the police - when taken to jail, don't threaten to injure yourself. EASY FIX!

scratched13
02-08-2008, 05:19 PM
That seems wrong to me too. There should be the same standards for both males and females.

But you guys should still be aware that we females have a lot more issues about our bodies than guys do. From the time we're little we have it drilled into us that our precious modesty has to be preserved. Though I admit that every individual is different, in general I think it is more traumatic to women when they have to be seen naked.

You (like so many) are contradicting yourself. Can't have it both ways. I always thought it was funny when a female steps up to the plate to fight an officer and she gets her clock cleaned ...... she will then cry foul: "you hit a WOMAN!"

scratched13
02-08-2008, 05:22 PM
Scratched, you can "no, no.......NO!" me all you want. This IS a service industry we provide. We do answer to the public, especially a sheriff. I never said the customer is always right. But when the customer (the public at large) asks, you're accountable. :rolleyes:

I am not saying we are not accountable. But a citizen cannot fire me. They can complain to my supervisors, but they can only state what happened. Sorry, you are still wrong.

scratched13
02-08-2008, 05:27 PM
Why can't they just be monitored with cameras? Why don't they go through the type of detectors at airports for weapons? I can think of many alternatives. If jails are that understaffed there are always solutions.

Because drugs and weapons can still be smuggled in. Last I checked, GLASS doesn't get anything to go "beep beep." And I have been cut many times by glass in my life. I have seen people cut themselves SEVERELY with glass in a suicide attempt.

"Why can't people just obey the FREAKIN' LAW!!!?!?!?!?!?"

Entre Nous
02-08-2008, 10:34 PM
You (like so many) are contradicting yourself. Can't have it both ways. I always thought it was funny when a female steps up to the plate to fight an officer and she gets her clock cleaned ...... she will then cry foul: "you hit a WOMAN!"How am I contradicting myself? Males and females should receive equal treatment in prisons as far as not having to be seen naked by members of the opposite sex. It shouldn't be any more okay to walk in on a man taking a shower than a woman.

But, no matter what the rules are in prisons, I believe women will always carry the burden of being more traumatized at being forced to be seen naked.

Believe it or not, both of the above statements can be true at the same time. So I guess I CAN have it both ways. Geez, scratched. It's like no matter what I say you want to find something wrong with it.

Entre Nous
02-08-2008, 10:59 PM
I was just wondering about something. If someone admitted to a jail is deemed to be suicidal, don't you normally have them sent to a psychiatric hospital? Wouldn't that relieve you of the responsibility of having to deal with them at all?

scarredpelt
02-08-2008, 11:25 PM
I was just wondering about something. If someone admitted to a jail is deemed to be suicidal, don't you normally have them sent to a psychiatric hospital? Wouldn't that relieve you of the responsibility of having to deal with them at all?

They have to live to get there.

Entre Nous
02-09-2008, 12:02 AM
So if you're processing someone and you decide that they're suicidal, you then contact the psych hospital, and in the meantime you take their clothing?

Then does the psych hospital come to get them, or does LE transport them?

Stewie
02-09-2008, 12:05 AM
I was just wondering about something. If someone admitted to a jail is deemed to be suicidal, don't you normally have them sent to a psychiatric hospital? Wouldn't that relieve you of the responsibility of having to deal with them at all?

Negative since that would cost US too much money, and we ONLY do emergency transports to the ER. If somebody is suicidal you get a smock and a suicide blanket and lay in a detox cell under suicide watch.

FarmTruk
02-09-2008, 01:21 AM
That sounds interesting. Do you have any links to the story?

Hey Gulf Po Po,

Sorry it took so long to check back and see your request. I'm posting this in the thread, but since it's been a few days since your request, a PM as well...

The links were long, so I converted to TinyURL.

This link was by the reporter from my local station. There is additional links on the bottom of the page which go to the audio recording, and blogger's reactions.

http://tinyurl.com/2cxmjk

A local newpaper writer's blog about the issue...

http://tinyurl.com/2ebvnq

Another local news station's coverage...

http://tinyurl.com/2ehe8k

Gonzo
02-09-2008, 04:40 AM
This news crew made an extremely slanted video in hopes of shocking the general public who has no real idea of how things work in law enforcement or corrections. I’m sure that this same news crew would have been in the jail demanding to know why the policy of stripping suicidal inmates was not followed if she had been able to use her clothing to kill herself.

A comment was made by one poster stating something to the effect that they didn’t understand why the media was not trusted, and added that they were just doing their job. I disagree, the news media generate revenue by selling ad time which is priced based on the number of their viewers; the more sensational the stories the more viewers tune in. Obviously a story reporting LEO’s involved in conduct that was compared to rape without penetration is far more sensational than a story reporting that the local Sheriff’s Dept. did their jobs exactly right for the 100th time this week.

The subject of this “ladies” dignity being taken away due to her nudity is ridiculous. She willingly gave away her dignity when she decided to get drunk, fight with her relatives, provide false identification to law enforcement, become disorderly, and resist law enforcement. It is possible that she indicated that she was suicidal to the Jail staff because she thought she would get a trip to the hospital rather than a trip to the drunk tank, this happened to me several times when I worked the jail. You have to treat these threats appropriately, and the policy of stripping suicidal inmates is in place for a reason, not just to humiliate them.

From what I can gather this woman was acting irrational from the start-- giving the driver’s license of her dead sister and then throwing a fit when they would not return the license to her. Irrational intoxicated people quite often make stupid choices- there was a greater chance that she might try to kill herself due to her irrational state of mind which I’m sure was made worse by adrenaline, fear, and alcohol to name a few.

She left the Jail staff no choice other than to protect her from herself. Most County Jails don’t have on duty Psychologists or mental health professionals of any kind, the officers are trained to take appropriate action when dealing with suicidal people. Typically the risk of suicide goes away when the person clams down and sobers up. Officers can’t spend their entire shift watching prisoners chained up to benches or transporting them to the hospital, if this was the policy, every person brought to jail would claim they were suicidal.

As far as I could see there was no search done here, only a disrobing to protect the prisoner. When she became combative it only makes sense to have other officers assist and if there were only male officers available to assist then that is the way it has to be, you don’t abandon one of your brothers or sisters when they need you. If this woman was so worried about the men handling her and seeing her nude, she should have agreed to cooperate at that time and this could have been avoided.

Jellybean 400 made the statement “I just think its pretty disturbing that so many would act like they dont understand why she might not feel good about it afterward, and might feel violated. Crime or no crime.” I’m sure that most inmates, men or women, don’t feel good about being strip searched, jailed, and watched at all times even when using the restroom, however, that is the nature of the beast. We can’t have a different policy for every prisoner, and sometimes peoples feelings get hurt and don't feel good about what is going on, but at least she is alive to complain about it.

Smurfette_76
02-09-2008, 07:04 AM
So if you're processing someone and you decide that they're suicidal, you then contact the psych hospital, and in the meantime you take their clothing?

Then does the psych hospital come to get them, or does LE transport them?


Entre,

I can't speak for everyone obviously, but the jail I take my peeps to has a nurse full time. If the arrestee makes a statement to me that they are suicidal, I inform the matron, etc. Because you never know what people are really thinking and the motivation behind their words (some really consider it, some are looking to guilt the Officers, some think it will get them out of the facility, etc) all people are treated the same. You remove or are removed of your clothing (BTW, I checked yesterday and the most females on a shift at one time at this place is three women....not enough if you have an out of control situation involving women) and are placed on suicide watch. The nurse will then go in and examine you. If she feels (and sorry, I don't know her qualifications in the psychological field) that you are a danger to yourself or others they have you voluntarily committed which means a Deputy (since you're a county jail) has to come and get you, take you to the hospital in town where a mental health professional comes to evaluate you. If that person determines you need to be committed to a longer care facility or whatever, the paperwork is done and the Deputy is responsible for transport. It's at least (from here) an hour and a half to the nearest confinement center. If the person determines you are not a risk, you go back to the jail and in with everybody else.

stvang01
02-09-2008, 09:56 AM
Any updates about the investigation?

87turbo
02-09-2008, 12:23 PM
Hello,

New visitor here, this thread was linked to from another site. You all might be interested in seeing how hard it is to explain to the uninformed. I am Identified as 87gta-turbo on the board and atempt to explain from my expirience as an urban EMT and current EMT instructor how to deal with behavior/mentally disturbed people.

Feel free to visit and comment if you wish:

http://www.turbobuicks.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=631248

CityCopDC
02-09-2008, 01:07 PM
You (like so many) are contradicting yourself. Can't have it both ways. I always thought it was funny when a female steps up to the plate to fight an officer and she gets her clock cleaned ...... she will then cry foul: "you hit a WOMAN!"

Interesting. My "momma" always said if a woman is man enough to put put her hands on you, you treat her like a man. In essence, my mother was saying dont let a woman beat on you. On the streets, if you put your hands on me or try to (man or woman) you will be put down....

CityCopDC
02-09-2008, 01:12 PM
How am I contradicting myself? Males and females should receive equal treatment in prisons as far as not having to be seen naked by members of the opposite sex. It shouldn't be any more okay to walk in on a man taking a shower than a woman. Sorry, it doesnt work that way. Contrary to popular belief a male CAN search a female prisoner if no females are around or exigent circumstances exist. And also contrary to popular belief in prisons, female co's oversee male inmates and vice versa.... :eek:


But, no matter what the rules are in prisons, I believe women will always carry the burden of being more traumatized at being forced to be seen naked. They should think about that before they get locked up. Maybe it should be a deterrent?

scratched13
02-09-2008, 01:29 PM
Sorry, it doesnt work that way. Contrary to popular belief a male CAN search a female prisoner if no females are around or exigent circumstances exist. And also contrary to popular belief in prisons, female co's oversee male inmates and vice versa.... :eek:

They should think about that before they get locked up. Maybe it should be a deterrent?

I agree with this!

towncop
02-10-2008, 02:15 AM
I am not saying we are not accountable. But a citizen cannot fire me. They can complain to my supervisors, but they can only state what happened. Sorry, you are still wrong.

No I'm not. You are the one that's still wrong. That's kind of like two kids fighting on the playground about "my dad can beat up your dad." Puhlease! You'll never convince me of your logic, which by the way is sorry, and wrong. Anyway, I am right on this, not you. I never said a citizen can fire you. Don't put words or other trash into my comments. :rolleyes:

POPO-FLA
02-10-2008, 03:23 AM
We have two choices to make whenever a decision is required as a LEO

1. Follow our department policy exactly. Have our actions questioned then investigated. The department gets sued but we are not personally liable. After public humiliation we are found innocent of any wrongdoing, (because we were already convicted by media), and return to our jobs and make the same decision again.

2. Worry about someone's feelings, dignity, sense of self, blah, blah, blah. Violate policy because we felt sympathetic. Have our actions questioned then investigated. The department gets sued. The department fires us to avoid liability. We lose our pension and job. We become personally liable. After public humiliation we are found guilty of wrongdoing and are charged with a crime. Our family is destitute and homeless due to our decision and we get the prison sentenence we alway wondered why no regular criminal ever got.

Try living with that when you handle 25 calls a night and every decision you make can have the consequences mentioned above.

JSD73
02-10-2008, 04:11 AM
Fact is, jail IS like that. EXACTLY like that.

Jail is about power, dominance, control, bullying, belittling, big egos and little brains, getting off on being able to beat up on people who can't fight back - and it's all legal. For those who work there, that is.

In addition, cops will lie, "tweak" the truth, change stories, and cover up for one another.

Been there. Seen it. Had it done to me. (the lieing part, not the strip part)

There are always other ways to handle situations such as this. But it takes a calm, rational, thinking officer, who has his ego under control. IMO, jail guards like to avoid using humane ways to interact with prisoners - they prefer to use force and domination.

I hope something sweeping comes out of this - a sweeping movement of change in the way prisoners are treated. There are MANY abuses that take place in jails and prisons, and hardly anyone knows about it. Of those who do know, (like the guards) very few care. Of those capable of making changes, very few WILL.

Why is jail so cold? Why is there no clean drinking water? Why, in a place full of HIV, Hep C, TB, and etc., is there no soap? Why can a woman not have a sanitary napkin? I'll tell you why - it's because jail is about power, dominance, control, bullying, belittling, big egos and little brains, getting off on being able to beat up on people who can't fight back - and it's all legal.


I just had to respond to this, Chools, with all due disrespect you're a moron and this is the height of moronic statements.

You ever worked in a county jail? You ever had someone come in hopped up on drugs and/or alcohol who doesn't comply with your requests then orders? You ever try to talk to an irrational human being politely? You ever fight someone who doesn't feel pain and even five of your co-workers at your side have trouble getting this person under control? NO?? THEN SHUT YOUR MOUTH!!

I'd love to see you work in a jail, you'd be bringing in contraband to the inmates in a heartbeat cause you'd be punked on day one. Jail is cold because it isn't made for YOUR comfort and it keeps INMATES a bit calmer when they are trying to stay warm. No clean water?? BS!! A water fountain or sink is always available. How prisoners are treated?? HA! Employees in a jail don't randomly walk up to inmates and take a swing or try to shove a shank in their throats. They don't spit and throw feces and urine in the inmates eyes, noooooooooooooo, it's the other way around. They can't follow the rules in society and they certainly can't follow them while incarcerated....animals don't even act like that.

Tell you what, why don't you go stand outside the Harris County Jail and offer to take a few inmates home with you when they get out. Let 'em stay with you a while, and when they've taken you for all you've got, and if they haven't taken your life, you come on back here and tell us how much you love inmates. The way you spout off here, and I'm guessing you did a small stint in Harris County, it's no wonder they didn't hand your butt to you on a platter and yeah, I'm talking about the Deputies because they have to put up with 9000 morons every single day and attempt to maintain order.

Now go on, go protest some big miscarriage of justice.

stephencohorn
02-10-2008, 04:13 AM
I can see this as a justifiable reasonable action provided one condition:

1. she was asked to remove her clothing in the presence of female officers before the male officers were utilized to help with the stripping.

It is true that sometimes there are other options before resorting to force, A patient reasonable dialogue can certainly help in a lot of situations, i.e. explaining what is happening and why, what action is required from the citizen, and what the consequences will be, warning her that her privacy would not take precedence over their safety would be pretty reasonable. but I don't expect an officer to beg for compliance, or to wait indefinitely for it :rolleyes:

Also, personally I think a paper gown should be standard issue in this kind of situation, it is a bit degrading for anyone to be forced to remain nude, take the clothes, do the search, whatever needs to be done, but don't leave them naked. While in practice there is a lot of truth to the whole "if you don't like it don't get sent to jail" opinion some have expressed, you should never assume everyone sent to jail just "deserves whatever they get", that kind of mentality isn't very healthy. There is nothing wrong with questioning policy, procedure, or individual actions provided the entire picture is presented. This news story certainly did not do that.

scratched13
02-10-2008, 10:03 AM
Very well stated. It happens all time in our small county jails. My view is if you act responsible and in good faith you will safe. Sometimes it is not possible to have the same sex present at time, and under the emergency your Exigent circumstances come into play..as well noted by DC.

I search females on the street and I have my way of doing it. Of course not strip searching lol but pat down searches on Terry Stops or whenever it applies and I ALWAYS have them in front of my camera. to prove why I do what I do and its always well documented or on video. Same thing with males. I am good with my words, Can I, Can you, Can I see, Can I take it out, whatever. I love video cameras cause I always wanted to be an actor (KIDDING) but settled for COP so now I just act in front of my camera...Also I always say to females turn to my vehicle and they can see my camera and the lights blinking. Prevents Chief saying, come in my office and lets talk. Instead I pull tape say hey bring her in a sign a complaint and statement. Then play tape...okay your under arrest. Thanks for the statement.

In Academy they made us search the females cause they are ones with their mans weapons, and drugs. Just other day I took in a meth head and I found drug-par. on her and no meth or dope. I smell dope, and I figured it was on her. Did my whole search of her and car on scene and back at jail, I couldnt find it in my seats. So I knew once she got booked into the jail, they would search and find where it was. After charging her for the charge...she had use RR, I let female jail take her and told her to watch her close. FORGOT like an idiot to tell her not to flush. I knew the jailer didnt pay too much attention. I know it was in that personal area. Darn lack of sleep on my end for that dumb mistake. Oh Well...live and learn.

Sorry to go on so long and off topic.....Good Post DC

Doesn't matter if you tape it. It only helps the media present a case (after careful editting). Remember, we watched this one online, didn't we??????

the Chools
02-11-2008, 01:04 PM
I can see this as a justifiable reasonable action provided one condition:

1. she was asked to remove her clothing in the presence of female officers before the male officers were utilized to help with the stripping.

It is true that sometimes there are other options before resorting to force, A patient reasonable dialogue can certainly help in a lot of situations, i.e. explaining what is happening and why, what action is required from the citizen, and what the consequences will be, warning her that her privacy would not take precedence over their safety would be pretty reasonable. but I don't expect an officer to beg for compliance, or to wait indefinitely for it :rolleyes:

Also, personally I think a paper gown should be standard issue in this kind of situation, it is a bit degrading for anyone to be forced to remain nude, take the clothes, do the search, whatever needs to be done, but don't leave them naked. While in practice there is a lot of truth to the whole "if you don't like it don't get sent to jail" opinion some have expressed, you should never assume everyone sent to jail just "deserves whatever they get", that kind of mentality isn't very healthy. There is nothing wrong with questioning policy, procedure, or individual actions provided the entire picture is presented. This news story certainly did not do that.

At last! A sane voice in this foray! This guy seems to understand that not everyone in jail (and remember, we're talking city jail, to await arraignment, not county jail where the person is serving his sentence), not everyone is a hardened or dangerous criminal, not everyone "knows the ropes" or is familiar with what's going on, some folks are frightened, confused, and extremely upset, i.e., not in their normal rational state of mind. When it's warranted, and when you have officers who are think before they act, kinder methods can be used, to get the subject to calm down and understand how to comply.

I still maintain that, in this case, the woman didn't need to be stripped at all. She was terrified, was trying hard to comply, and asked a question in innocence, trying to understand the officer's question about harming herself. Relisten to the tape. If she first didn't take her clothes off when asked, it's because she was stunned in disbelief, not believing they were serious about her taking her clothing off. Who wouldn't be?

And you guys have to understand every woman's real fear of sexual assault. Even knowing I was safe inside a police station, attended to by professional law officers, come on now! - men forcibly tearing my clothing off, restraining me, being face down, putting their full weight on my prone body - yes, that is tantamount to sexual assault. Something you MEN don't understand.

Also:

1. Not providing such a subject with paper clothing, that IS, again, the demonstration of jail being about dominance, humiliation, power, and control.

2. Right, there IS "clean" drinking water in jail. IF, that is, you don't mind utting your mouth right on the metal housing of the combined toilet / sink unit your HIV- or TB-infected cellmates have already slopped their mouths on.

3. Just because there are sanitary products IN the jail house building, it doesn't mean the guards will actually give them to a woman in need. Sorry, to all of you who wish to believe otherwise, in some cases, this is a true fact. Ditto with soap.

Entre Nous
02-11-2008, 03:33 PM
you get a smock and a suicide blanketWhat is a suicide blanket?

Entre Nous
02-11-2008, 03:35 PM
Entre,

I can't speak for everyone obviously, but the jail I take my peeps to has a nurse full time. If the arrestee makes a statement to me that they are suicidal, I inform the matron, etc. Because you never know what people are really thinking and the motivation behind their words (some really consider it, some are looking to guilt the Officers, some think it will get them out of the facility, etc) all people are treated the same. You remove or are removed of your clothing (BTW, I checked yesterday and the most females on a shift at one time at this place is three women....not enough if you have an out of control situation involving women) and are placed on suicide watch. The nurse will then go in and examine you. If she feels (and sorry, I don't know her qualifications in the psychological field) that you are a danger to yourself or others they have you voluntarily committed which means a Deputy (since you're a county jail) has to come and get you, take you to the hospital in town where a mental health professional comes to evaluate you. If that person determines you need to be committed to a longer care facility or whatever, the paperwork is done and the Deputy is responsible for transport. It's at least (from here) an hour and a half to the nearest confinement center. If the person determines you are not a risk, you go back to the jail and in with everybody else.Thanks very much for explaining that, Smurfette. I would have no objection to anything you just described. It seems like a pretty good system.

Loren Pechtel
02-11-2008, 09:11 PM
Because the Police don't just "grab" someone off the street for no reason and them bring them to the jail for a coed, videotaped, gang-stripping. Although wrapping yourself in toilet paper to keep warm is an inovative, though stupid, idea.

Any layer no matter how thin will help keep you warm by reducing air circulation even if it offers no insulation itself.

Gulf Po Po
02-11-2008, 10:01 PM
What is a suicide blanket?

A suicide blanket it a blanket that the inmate can wrap themselves in after their clothing is taken away. It is made out of very thick and heavy material that cannot be torn into strips of material which could be used to hang themselves.


On another note, I wish this was an officer only website. At least where officers are the only ones who can post. I am tired of trolls (I'll will explain want a troll is if needed) on here stirring up crap.

We could be having productive discussions about our professions, but instead the longest posts are spent arguing with people who will never understand unless they come do our jobs themselves.

Look at people's profiles. Notice that the trolls are not cops, but people who hang around to cry about things they will never understand.

EXAMPLE: the chools

JSD73
02-11-2008, 10:37 PM
At last! A sane voice in this foray! This guy seems to understand that not everyone in jail (and remember, we're talking city jail, to await arraignment, not county jail where the person is serving his sentence), not everyone is a hardened or dangerous criminal, not everyone "knows the ropes" or is familiar with what's going on, some folks are frightened, confused, and extremely upset, i.e., not in their normal rational state of mind. When it's warranted, and when you have officers who are think before they act, kinder methods can be used, to get the subject to calm down and understand how to comply.

I still maintain that, in this case, the woman didn't need to be stripped at all. She was terrified, was trying hard to comply, and asked a question in innocence, trying to understand the officer's question about harming herself. Relisten to the tape. If she first didn't take her clothes off when asked, it's because she was stunned in disbelief, not believing they were serious about her taking her clothing off. Who wouldn't be?

And you guys have to understand every woman's real fear of sexual assault. Even knowing I was safe inside a police station, attended to by professional law officers, come on now! - men forcibly tearing my clothing off, restraining me, being face down, putting their full weight on my prone body - yes, that is tantamount to sexual assault. Something you MEN don't understand.

Also:

1. Not providing such a subject with paper clothing, that IS, again, the demonstration of jail being about dominance, humiliation, power, and control.

2. Right, there IS "clean" drinking water in jail. IF, that is, you don't mind utting your mouth right on the metal housing of the combined toilet / sink unit your HIV- or TB-infected cellmates have already slopped their mouths on.

3. Just because there are sanitary products IN the jail house building, it doesn't mean the guards will actually give them to a woman in need. Sorry, to all of you who wish to believe otherwise, in some cases, this is a true fact. Ditto with soap.


Once again, your ignorance shines through! This didn't occur in a city jail, it occurred in a county jail. City jails don't hold people for their arraignment, they are used to house (temporarily) county prisoners before being transported to the county jail AND to hold those who are serving time on municipal charges. County jails hold those who are charged with Class A and B misdemeanors and yes, even sometimes Class C misdemeanors (here in Texas) and felonies and they HOLD them until that person posts bond, pleas out, has their trial, and/or is sentenced to do county time or transferred to a State facility to serve their time.

D.C. Hughes
02-11-2008, 11:26 PM
City jails don't hold people for their arraignment, they are used to house (temporarily) county prisoners before being transported to the county jail AND to hold those who are serving time on municipal charges.

Not universally "true".

In D.C. people are either sent from the Police District (precinct) to CCB under MPD-HQ to be held until turned over to the U.S. Marshals* under D.C. Superior Court for arraignment or are held at the Police District and transported directly to the Marshals at Court.

(*: The U.S. Marshals Service is responsible for security and custody ops at DCSC)

The D.C. Jail belongs to, and is controlled by, the city and is the purview of DC-DOC.

To the best of my knowledge detainees/arrestees headed to arraignment are strictly segregated from D.C. Jail prisoners by the U.S. Marshals under and throughout the D.C. Superior Court building.

(Btw, the U.S. Attorney's Office for D.C. prosecutes all cases here as United States v. J.Q. Public. Well, 'til the recent creation of a D.C. AG--and they only get certain types of cases)

JSD73
02-12-2008, 02:38 AM
Not universally "true".

In D.C. people are either sent from the Police District (precinct) to CCB under MPD-HQ to be held until turned over to the U.S. Marshals* under D.C. Superior Court for arraignment or are held at the Police District and transported directly to the Marshals at Court.

(*: The U.S. Marshals Service is responsible for security and custody ops at DCSC)

The D.C. Jail belongs to, and is controlled by, the city and is the purview of DC-DOC.

To the best of my knowledge detainees/arrestees headed to arraignment are strictly segregated from D.C. Jail prisoners by the U.S. Marshals under and throughout the D.C. Superior Court building.

(Btw, the U.S. Attorney's Office for D.C. prosecutes all cases here as United States v. J.Q. Public. Well, 'til the recent creation of a D.C. AG--and they only get certain types of cases)

And I knew I'd get called on that, and of course, not universally true, but I would believe for the most part...true. Also, in this particular case, as stated in the article about the case, it occurred at the County Jail and not in a city jail as a 'poster' has stated.

Just as in Louisiana, I'm sure things are done a bit differently in DC than the rest of the U.S.:cool:

GroundPounder01
02-12-2008, 03:02 AM
Very interesting topic... I will respond later on when I have more juice in my laptop, LOL! Working in a detention center, I have had the wonderful oppertunity to be educated, as well as experienced in this!

MaineSqueeze
02-12-2008, 06:38 AM
The whole time I was watching that I was waiting for her to get tased, then I watched Dont Taze Me Bro.

Cubfan
02-12-2008, 07:52 AM
I was involved in a similar situation. The female inmate stated she was suicidal. A lot of times they say that because they want to get out of the GP and into seg or to a hospital. She was escorted by male officers to a safe room where a female officer was waiting to have her strip. The male officers stood out of view until the female officer yelled for help. She decided that she didn't want to be there after all and charged at the officer. When the male officers ran in to assist in controlling her, she was naked. The suicide blanket was thrown over her and the camera was started. Now if you look at the film from the start, you see 3 male officers and 1 female officer cuffing 1 naked female inmate. If that hit the news, I'm sure that there would be a big uproar because nobody who wasn't there knew what went on before the camera started. It's not like the female officer is going to yell for help and we reply "Is she dressed? 'Cause we can't help you if she's naked!"

RedMan1
02-12-2008, 08:27 PM
She shouldn't have been left naked in the cell. If they were out of gowns, then they shouldn't strip. They should give her a blanket or let her go. Instead they decided to humiliate her for 6 hours.

Strip searching is over used anyway. There's been lawsuits about strip searches for minor crimes and misdemeanors. Police stations have been forced to change strip searching policies by court order.

Pat 'em down, sit them on that X-ray chair, and give em a private cell.

GroundPounder01
02-12-2008, 09:26 PM
Wow... Well I am not on the same page as that, but to each their own.

Now, understanding each state is different, I am pretty sure we all operate under the 4th, 14th, and 8th when comes to intakes on. That being said, I watched this video several times, and find again the media is taking the entire situation out of context as they do not have all the facts. BUT, the facts we are made aware of "so far":

1) 9-1-1 Call made. LEO respond. Upon arrival, they are faced with an "intoxicated" subject.

2) The intoxicated subject provided identification to law enforcement, other then their own.

3) After being brought in to the detention center, prelimanary questioning is conducted, which all persons are asked when brought in. With that, answers given included "now or ever".

4) Deemed by that department and their officials, subject is "SAFETY STRIPPED".. Not STRIP SEARCHED. Two absolutely different procedures. The safety strip was conducted in a manner in which the subjects safety was in mind, as she was not allowed to freely walk about and harm herself. There were two female officers present (I checked the video again). Regardless, no body cavities were visually inspected for contraband, as viewed by the video.

Knowing that we have only bits a peices of the facts, from everything that has been presented that we have observed, it appears to have been conducted lawfully.

As I watched and listened to the video, I laughed hearing the husband state that his wife "never would have said that". She was intoxicated.. how many persons daily do we deal with that are not the same person when sober? Not to mention, in the video you can hear one of the Deputies try to calm the female subject, but she was so wound up and not operating in a sober condition, she was not listening, nor responding normally to the officers.

REDMAN: I dont know if you are LE or not, but a pat down will only catch so much contraband. This also goes for an X-Ray chair. They are great tools, but not "fix alls". Plastic weapons will not be registered by an X-Ray chair. One thing that severely bothers me about what you said, is "and give em a private cell".. Please tell me that was humor I missed!

I will agree however, maybe a safety smock could have been provided, IF available. Sometimes we over look other contributing factors, and that needs to be weighed as well.

RedMan1
02-12-2008, 10:38 PM
4) Deemed by that department and their officials, subject is "SAFETY STRIPPED".. Not STRIP SEARCHED. Two absolutely different procedures. The safety strip was conducted in a manner in which the subjects safety was in mind, as she was not allowed to freely walk about and harm herself. There were two female officers present (I checked the video again). Regardless, no body cavities were visually inspected for contraband, as viewed by the video.


Key word is 'stripped'. Who cares if it was a search or not? They stripped her and kept her naked for hours. And she was in plain view of officers (male and female).



Plastic weapons will not be registered by an X-Ray chair. One thing that severely bothers me about what you said, is "and give em a private cell".. Please tell me that was humor I missed!

yes humor, although if I was in jail, I wouldn't mind a private cell. Safer for me, no?



I will agree however, maybe a safety smock could have been provided, IF available. Sometimes we over look other contributing factors, and that needs to be weighed as well.

No, not maybe. A safety smock SHOULD have been provided. Try getting forcibly stripped by 4? officers and sit in a cel naked for 6 hours and tell me you don't think a smock should be provided.

sinned
02-12-2008, 11:06 PM
Many facilities do not use safety smocks. When you are placed in a safety cell you are naked...don't make threats that could indicate you are suicidal and you won't have a problem.

Once in a safety cell you are not in plain view of everyone. You are in a cell with a viewing window only visible to someone who walks up to it and looks in to make sure you are still breathing.

Isn't it funny how the only people that are adamantly upset about this have no experience in law enforcement and wouldn't last 5 minutes as Deputy or Correctional Officer?

RedMan1
02-12-2008, 11:10 PM
Many facilities do not use safety smocks. When you are placed in a safety cell you are naked...don't make threats that could indicate you are suicidal and you won't have a problem.

Once in a safety cell you are not in plain view of everyone. You are in a cell with a viewing window only visible to someone who walks up to it and looks in to make sure you are still breathing.

Isn't it funny how the only people that are adamantly upset about this have no experience in law enforcement and wouldn't last 5 minutes as Deputy or Correctional Officer?

Whats funnier is the only people who don't have a problem with the video are those in LE. But LE is rarely critical of itself.

Why don't facilities use safety smocks?

sinned
02-12-2008, 11:11 PM
Strip searching is over used anyway. There's been lawsuits about strip searches for minor crimes and misdemeanors. Police stations have been forced to change strip searching policies by court order.

ALL Jails I know of in our area strip EVERY inmate anytime they leave the facility even for a short time and in the company of Deputies. The only inmate’s not stripped need to have never been in custody before and arrested for a non-violent crime that also involves no drug charges...Pretty much first time thieves and drunks.

Whats funnier is the only people who don't have a problem with the video are those in LE. But LE is rarely critical of itself.

Why don't facilities use safety smocks?
That would be because those who have never been exposed to this have no idea what it takes to handle this situation. For the same reason I don't criticize NASA for a Space Shuttle exploding on lift off, civilians have no place criticizing LEO for doing their job. If they do it wrong, IA will take care of it.

Why use smocks? I see no need for them. Our jail is maintained at a pretty comfortable 70*.

sinned
02-12-2008, 11:16 PM
double post

RedMan1
02-12-2008, 11:20 PM
Why use smocks? I see no need for them. Our jail is maintained at a pretty comfortable 70*.

Well sitting around naked doesn't seem necessary. So you don't use smocks because you want to humiliate the person?

sinned
02-12-2008, 11:32 PM
Well sitting around naked doesn't seem necessary. So you don't use smocks because you want to humiliate the person?

It is necessary. If you are being safety stripped it means you have implied or state you intend to kill yourself. Anything placed into the rubber room with you could potentially be used to accomplish that.

How is it humiliating sitting in a small rubber room with a tiny window used only for observation by one or two individuals?

Using your logic we should just leave them on the streets, why even bother locking them up if we can’t search them or keep them from hurting themselves?

BTW, City of Berkley called. The said they miss you, hurry back.

Himso
02-12-2008, 11:36 PM
No. Sitting around naked is not necessary, it is a choice. A choice made by the inmate not the Officers. At what point are we responsible for our own actions?

Jails are not nice places. They are not meant to be. Safety and Security measures are in place to protect the inmate and the Officers.

Tee.Elle.
02-12-2008, 11:37 PM
How is it humiliating sitting in a small rubber room with a tiny window used only for observation by one or two individuals?

People usually like keeping their private parts, well, "private", hence the invention of these items called "clothes".

Reading the replies of most of the LE folk in here have helped me to understand why those actions were necessary. But be that as it may, none of you have any idea whatsoever why someone might not want to sit around in a jail cell naked? Seriously?

Hmmm...

kknudsen
02-12-2008, 11:50 PM
Whats funnier is the only people who don't have a problem with the video are those in LE. But LE is rarely critical of itself.

Why don't facilities use safety smocks?


Yes that may be true but if you went to the kitchen in a restaurant and watched for awhile I suspect that you would see things you didn't like. If you questioned some restaurant employees about what you saw I suspect they would find many of those things normal, business as usual and defend the practice. If you hung around a hospital for any lenth of time I suspect that you would see things you didn't like. If you questioned some hospital employees about what you saw I suspect they would find many of those things normal, business as usual and defend the practice. Truth is if you look around at enough of these threads you will find LE is quite critical of "itself" such as other officers involved in misconduct. On the other hand we have many distasteful aspects of our jobs that most civilians never have to or want to experience. When those distasteful aspects do come to light and are criticized as misconduct then we are certainly quick to defend our fellow LE if we know that the activity in question is normal procedure or "business as usual" As another post stated very accurately most procedures that people may find "distasteful" are the product of reducing some liability previously determined to exist by a court. A simple rule of thumb in a case like this is an embarassed and humiliated person is still better than a dead one...and less of a liability.

RedMan1
02-12-2008, 11:59 PM
It is necessary. If you are being safety stripped it means you have implied or state you intend to kill yourself. Anything placed into the rubber room with you could potentially be used to accomplish that.

How is it humiliating sitting in a small rubber room with a tiny window used only for observation by one or two individuals?

Using your logic we should just leave them on the streets, why even bother locking them up if we can’t search them or keep them from hurting themselves?

BTW, City of Berkley called. The said they miss you, hurry back.

I thought safety smocks couldn't be used to hang yourself, hence the term 'safety smock'.

So again, I ask, WHY NOT use safety smocks?

As for how humiliating it is to sit in a cell naked with people peeking in on you every few minutes?? Have u tried it?

Jellybean400
02-13-2008, 12:07 AM
1) 9-1-1 Call made. LEO respond. Upon arrival, they are faced with an "intoxicated" subject.

2) The intoxicated subject provided identification to law enforcement, other then their own.



I'm just copying your statement, but i've seen a few others saying the same. But i cant find anything saying that she was drunk. Maybe i'm missing something.

I am sure that the police deal with mentally ill people, who ARE suicidal, and they have to take all of them seriously. Who knows who is serious and who's not? So i guess mentally ill people are also left naked on the floor of a cell if they are not cooperating, because how can you tell the difference?

It's just pretty sad, and too bad that there's not a better way.

Himso
02-13-2008, 01:19 AM
People usually like keeping their private parts, well, "private", hence the invention of these items called "clothes".

Reading the replies of most of the LE folk in here have helped me to understand why those actions were necessary. But be that as it may, none of you have any idea whatsoever why someone might not want to sit around in a jail cell naked? Seriously?

Hmmm...

I think if you go back and look at most of the comments made by LE, you will find that most people agree it is humiliating. Humiliating but necessary at times. Most people find that being in handcuffs in public is humiliating but they are still used whether someone forged a check or murdered someone.

scratched13
02-13-2008, 01:56 AM
Whats funnier is the only people who don't have a problem with the video are those in LE. But LE is rarely critical of itself.

Why don't facilities use safety smocks?

Then YOU go out on the streets or work the jails if YOU think that YOU could do better. Since you don't ans live comfortably in your world, THEN STOP TELLING THOSE WHO HAVE TO GET DIRTY INSTEAD OF YOU that they shouldn't hurt the feelings of those who break the law.

Was she raped???????? Nope. Was she beaten??????????? Nope. Who does she have to thank for her experience???????? Her own stupid self.

scratched13
02-13-2008, 01:58 AM
Well sitting around naked doesn't seem necessary. So you don't use smocks because you want to humiliate the person?

Well, getting drunk, having false identification, resisting arrest, making threats of suicide ........ don't seem necessary.:rolleyes:

scratched13
02-13-2008, 02:00 AM
People usually like keeping their private parts, well, "private", hence the invention of these items called "clothes".

Reading the replies of most of the LE folk in here have helped me to understand why those actions were necessary. But be that as it may, none of you have any idea whatsoever why someone might not want to sit around in a jail cell naked? Seriously?

Hmmm...

Sorry, privacy is for those not in jail. Jail means bars on doors, not solid doors. Jail means no showers alone. Jail means searched - even strip searched.

RedMan1
02-13-2008, 03:04 AM
Sorry, privacy is for those not in jail. Jail means bars on doors, not solid doors. Jail means no showers alone. Jail means searched - even strip searched.

May I point out she is innocent until proven guilty? Yet she gets treated like she has been convicted and serving her sentence.

Police can haul you off to jail for virtually anything. It makes the public feel very uncomfortable too see not only how easily one can end up in jail, but also how one gets treated.

I wonder if officers get stripped as part of their training so they know how it feels. Does anyone know?

Entre Nous
02-13-2008, 03:11 AM
3) After being brought in to the detention center, prelimanary questioning is conducted, which all persons are asked when brought in. With that, answers given included "now or ever".

4) Deemed by that department and their officials, subject is "SAFETY STRIPPED".. Not STRIP SEARCHED. Two absolutely different procedures. The safety strip was conducted in a manner in which the subjects safety was in mind, as she was not allowed to freely walk about and harm herself. There were two female officers present (I checked the video again). Regardless, no body cavities were visually inspected for contraband, as viewed by the video.What I would like to understand is how things went from 3 to 4. How does asking the officers to clarify whether they mean is she suicidal now or was she ever indicate that she is suicidal?

Smurfette_76
02-13-2008, 07:05 AM
Entre,

I believe it's because the procedure they used (which many of us have seen time and time again) is consistant with that of someone that is being removed of their clothing for safety reasons. I want to say that I read the Sheriff making a remark somewhere (along those same lines) but I'm not positive and would have to find that reference.

Redman,

The most logical solution to this problem would be to not go to jail, no? It's not that LEO will always defend LEO, but it's difficult as a LEO to watch someone else attempt to participate in a discussion in which they obviously have little to no point of reference. The defendent (not victim) is innocent until proven guilty, but in jail (just like on the street) your actions will dictate a reaction. When she stops her actions, she will note a change in the reaction she gets. While I most certainly would not like to find myself sitting in a jail cell void of clothing, I also understand what personal responsibility is and wouldn't find myself naked and hysterical in a jail cell charged with multiple offenses. In addition, she was stripped by four because of HER combative nature. I have, in ten years, had to assist while multiple Officers tried to restrain ONE person. I repeat, if you're wanting a fight, then one on one can get the job done...if it's restraint you are trying to achieve (especially when we are charged with not physically hurting someone) then it takes more people. So, I'm sorry to fall back on an old argument, but again...if you have never done the job, you just wouldn't know. IE-you have zero point of reference.

J. Slacker
02-13-2008, 07:30 AM
May I point out she is innocent until proven guilty? Yet she gets treated like she has been convicted and serving her sentence.

Police can haul you off to jail for virtually anything. It makes the public feel very uncomfortable too see not only how easily one can end up in jail, but also how one gets treated.

I wonder if officers get stripped as part of their training so they know how it feels. Does anyone know?

Are you f****ng kidding me right now?? Yeah, we know that she wasn't/hasn't been convicted of anything. No one ever said that the lady was convicted of a crime. She was arrested on a charged and lodged in the JAIL. Upon entry in jail, due to an impairment in judgement caused by alcohol, drugs and/or mental health issues, she made comments which led the officers/deputies/CO's to believe she was suicidal. After repeated requests/orders for the woman to remove her clothes so that they could verify that she wasn't smuggling weapons/drugs, she refused. She obviously was resistive as well, as can be seen on the (brief) video clip. Officers involved were following their P&P.

If you have a problem with how this was handled (don't blush, it happens all the time), you can point your blame in the direction of our litigious society at large. I can assure you that some previous complaint/lawsuit of someone threatening suicide was blown off by corrections deputies/jail officers. That person harmed him/herself and the dept got burned. We in law enforcement have to deal with hostile situations NOW.

It ain't pretty (as I believe scratched said several posts back). It is what it is. We don't deal with the pretty, the garden of roses in this business. We deal with the worst situations. We deal with the worst people. Sometimes we deal with good people at their lowest point in life. That may be what happened here. The fact is, she was not cooperative with the LEOs in that cell, and THAT'S why the situation happened why it did.

J. Slacker
02-13-2008, 08:07 AM
No. Sitting around naked is not necessary, it is a choice. A choice made by the inmate not the Officers. At what point are we responsible for our own actions?

Jails are not nice places. They are not meant to be. Safety and Security measures are in place to protect the inmate and the Officers.

Very well put...


People usually like keeping their private parts, well, "private", hence the invention of these items called "clothes".

Reading the replies of most of the LE folk in here have helped me to understand why those actions were necessary. But be that as it may, none of you have any idea whatsoever why someone might not want to sit around in a jail cell naked? Seriously?

Hmmm...

See above response. We (LEOs) are not "itching" to get arrestees/prisoners naked. I for one have no desire to see the "private" or other parts of the people I take into custody. It's not a desirable element of the job. As has been stated NUMEROUS times, stripping of potentially suicidal inmates/arrestees is ONLY done in response to suicidal threats or attempts made by said persons in custody.

tony.o
02-13-2008, 09:15 AM
May I point out she is innocent until proven guilty? Yet she gets treated like she has been convicted and serving her sentence.

Police can haul you off to jail for virtually anything. It makes the public feel very uncomfortable too see not only how easily one can end up in jail, but also how one gets treated.

I wonder if officers get stripped as part of their training so they know how it feels. Does anyone know?

Shouldn't you be out chasing an ambulance or something.

scratched13
02-13-2008, 09:24 AM
May I point out she is innocent until proven guilty? Yet she gets treated like she has been convicted and serving her sentence.

Police can haul you off to jail for virtually anything. It makes the public feel very uncomfortable too see not only how easily one can end up in jail, but also how one gets treated.

I wonder if officers get stripped as part of their training so they know how it feels. Does anyone know?

Do us all a favor, when you need help, don't call the police - call someone else. See if they come. You certainly don't deserve our assistance with this attitude.

I always find it amazing how people like you living in your cozy worlds all safe and sound and then cry "FOUL" when you see the harsh reality of life that you CHOOSE to not take part in.

She put herself in that position. She CHOOSE her fate. The officers were not punishing her. Heck, in the past people were NOT asked any questions about suicide. Someone killed themselves in jail, "so what." But because of liberals and especially LAWYERS (that's you), we now have to take extreme precautions to PREVENT PEOPLE FROM HURTING THEMSELVES. You see, at every turn, we have to correct idiots bad choices ..... we have to PROTECT them from their own stupidity. SHE chose to get drunk, to be disorderly, to use a false ID, to fight the police, to THREATEN SUICIDE, to fight the officers PROBABLY EVEN WHEN THEY POLITELY ASKED HER TO DISROBE.:mad:

And this quote sums up your contempt for the police: "Police can haul you off to jail for virtually anything." Well, just thanks you and the likes of you. A LAWYER thought up and wrote these laws that police charge people with. Don't like it? Then change the laws. But when you do, don't be surprised when you get all bent out of shape when "the police do nothing" to that poor innocent drunk lady that you constantly call us about.

Gulf Po Po
02-13-2008, 09:56 AM
Yes that may be true but if you went to the kitchen in a restaurant and watched for awhile I suspect that you would see things you didn't like. If you questioned some restaurant employees about what you saw I suspect they would find many of those things normal, business as usual and defend the practice. If you hung around a hospital for any lenth of time I suspect that you would see things you didn't like. If you questioned some hospital employees about what you saw I suspect they would find many of those things normal, business as usual and defend the practice. Truth is if you look around at enough of these threads you will find LE is quite critical of "itself" such as other officers involved in misconduct. On the other hand we have many distasteful aspects of our jobs that most civilians never have to or want to experience. When those distasteful aspects do come to light and are criticized as misconduct then we are certainly quick to defend our fellow LE if we know that the activity in question is normal procedure or "business as usual" As another post stated very accurately most procedures that people may find "distasteful" are the product of reducing some liability previously determined to exist by a court. A simple rule of thumb in a case like this is an embarassed and humiliated person is still better than a dead one...and less of a liability.


Excellent example! I never really thought of trying to explain it like that.

I worked my my through school waiting tables. 2 1/2 years at Outback Steakhouse. Itwas one of the cleanest restaurant kitchens, with a well trained staff I have ever see. However, whenever a new employee came in, and saw how the kitchen was run, sometimes they were appalled. We explained what we do and how we do it per health code, and within a few weeks, they understood. They would soon fall in suit, and begin practicing the same methods that previously appalled them, because they realized it was the best way.

I bet if you took one of the nay-sayers, and put them to work in a jail, they would try to follow their heart, and try to be very caring and trusting of the inmates. However, after a few fights, disturbances, etc., they would come to realize that force is necessary. They would understand that housed inmates would take advantage of them at any time, and that being STRONG/STERN but FAIR was the best policy.

Gulf Po Po
02-13-2008, 10:10 AM
May I point out she is innocent until proven guilty? Yet she gets treated like she has been convicted and serving her sentence.

Police can haul you off to jail for virtually anything. It makes the public feel very uncomfortable too see not only how easily one can end up in jail, but also how one gets treated.

I wonder if officers get stripped as part of their training so they know how it feels. Does anyone know?


I don't know about every academy, but in my academy we had something like that. One night before dinner, they loaded us up in a bus, and took all money/identification away from us. They dropped us off in groups of four (for safety) in the downtown area. We were giving a one block radius which we were instructed to stay within, and then they left us all night. We were instructed to not identify ourselves as police or anything like that. (We found out later that an instructor was watching each group from a distance with night vision.)

Several officers of the city police were involved, and they came by throughout the night as we were trying to stay warm, and harrassed us. They really laid it on thick, by yelling, belittling, and physically manhandling us. They accused us of crimes like burglary and whatnot. The academy also had plaincloths individuals, who were part of the exercise, pose as hookers, drug dealers, and drug users, approach us through the night also. Around four in the morning, we were dealing with a "drug dealer", and the cops showed up. The "dealer" threw down a bag of weed, and the police slammed us on the ground, and "arrested" us. We were transported to the jail, strip searched, and thrown in cells for the remainder of the night. A few DUMB students resisted, and they were held to the ground, and stripped. Which is very REAL LIFE. If you follow instructions, usually jail is an uncomfortable experience, but you will come out unscathed. The overall exercise was a great method to show future officers what the other side came be like. From dealing with mean officers, to street people, to being blamed for crimes you didn't commit.

Entre Nous
02-13-2008, 01:14 PM
Entre,

I believe it's because the procedure they used (which many of us have seen time and time again) is consistant with that of someone that is being removed of their clothing for safety reasons. I want to say that I read the Sheriff making a remark somewhere (along those same lines) but I'm not positive and would have to find that reference. Thanks, Smurfette. That was my understanding too - that she was being stripped for her own safety.

So I guess that's why I don't understand how just saying, "now or ever" causes one to be deemed suicidal. When I inquire about people's suicidal intentions they often seem to want to be specific rather than give a yes or no answer. Like, "I have been in the past, but I've been okay for the past couple of months", or they'll ask, "do you mean right now, tonight?", and none of those things ever make me think that they are immediately suicidal. So I was just wondering how asking "now or ever?" leads officers to be concerned for one's saftety.

Or maybe there was something that wasn't on the tape, or that I missed.

Entre Nous
02-13-2008, 01:26 PM
See above response. We (LEOs) are not "itching" to get arrestees/prisoners naked. I for one have no desire to see the "private" or other parts of the people I take into custody. It's not a desirable element of the job.I believe you, Slacker. I can't even imagine what it would be like to have to do that. That's part of why I don't get the insistence that the way it's done is the way it has to be, and there couldn't possibly be a better way to handle it.

And as you suggested in another post, I DO blame a litigious society. The fact that fear of lawsuits was a big factor in the establishment of these policies has been clear throughout the thread.

Himso
02-13-2008, 02:28 PM
There may be a better way of doing it but it is not up to us to decide. We can only follow the policy that is in place for us.

D.C. Hughes
02-13-2008, 02:57 PM
it is not up to us to decide. We can only follow the policy that is in place for us.

Entre and Tee et al pls take note of the statement.

Entre Nous
02-13-2008, 03:28 PM
Entre and Tee et al pls take note of the statement.Yes, I totally understand that, and I said early on that I don't blame the officers for enforcing the rules.

I'm just a little surprised about how defensive some people get about policy. Heck, the policies of my organization suck and I'll talk for hours about how they could be better. I don't get mad at all if someone questions them.

Of course, if this really is absolutely the only way, then it's good that everyone is honest and says that.

D.C. Hughes
02-13-2008, 03:35 PM
I'm just a little surprised about how defensive some people get about policy.

Some of them are taking it--and criticism--personally.

For others there is no separation between self and job and department...

And, then there's: some of the criticisms were directed at the individual cops/COs/deputies and cops in general rather than the policy(s).

Himso
02-13-2008, 03:35 PM
People may get a little defensive because the media plays to the public that the Officers were gang stripping a defenseless little female for no reason. This portrays us in a bad light. Of course we will defend ourselves.

RedMan1
02-13-2008, 03:56 PM
I'm still waiting for someone to tell me why she had to sit naked for 6 hours without a smock or blanket. They make those thick blankets that cannot be torn into strips. And the smock can cover you up but not be used as a noose.

You say that LEOs aren't 'itching' to see someone naked. But then you stick them naked in a cell with nothing to cover themselves up with.

D.C. Hughes
02-13-2008, 04:08 PM
I'm still waiting for someone to tell me why she had to sit naked for 6 hours without a smock or blanket. They make those thick blankets that cannot be torn into strips. And the smock can cover you up but not be used as a noose.

Several of us have pointed out that that:

1) may not be a TO&E/inventory item
2) they may have been out-of-stock
3) they may have been too busy
4) That may be local policy

RedMan1
02-13-2008, 04:42 PM
Several of us have pointed out that that:

1) may not be a TO&E/inventory item
2) they have been out-of-stock
3) they may have been too busy
4) That may be local policy

OK, putting them in a little list was helpful, thank you for that.

I still think none of the reasons listed above justify it though. For (1) and (2), ff you are running a jail, you know you will be stripping people like this. So I think you should have all appropriate material in stock and on hand. Would a jail run out of pepper spray? I hope not. Same thing goes for blankets, smocks, food, toilet paper, etc. If you are underfunded, understaffed or overcrowded then I say release them.

(3) just sounds like laziness. How hard is it to go, grab a smock, and hand it to someone. These people are in your custody. So you have to be responsible for them. You strip em, you cover em.

(4) just sounds stupid, but I understand about stupid policies. I just don't follow them where I work. :D

Stewie
02-13-2008, 04:53 PM
OK, putting them in a little list was helpful, thank you for that.

I still think none of the reasons listed above justify it though. For (1) and (2), ff you are running a jail, you know you will be stripping people like this. So I think you should have all appropriate material in stock and on hand. Would a jail run out of pepper spray? I hope not. Same thing goes for blankets, smocks, food, toilet paper, etc. If you are underfunded, understaffed or overcrowded then I say release them.

(3) just sounds like laziness. How hard is it to go, grab a smock, and hand it to someone. These people are in your custody. So you have to be responsible for them. You strip em, you cover em.

(4) just sounds stupid, but I understand about stupid policies. I just don't follow them where I work. :D

1.) Yes having adequate stock in supplies is something to try for, but you also don't know the circumstances of the situation. Would a jail run out of pepper spray? Well I hope not since you really don't need to use it that often, and why use OC when I can taser you?

"If you are underfunded, understaffed or overcrowded then I say release them."

Wow you sound like a slime ball inmate hugger, then I looked at your profile no wonder!

2.) Were you there? Do you work in Corrections? Nope!

3.) Good I'm glad you don't have to follow your policies at your cushy office job, if I fail to follow my "stupid policies" I can get sued and slimeballs like you can profit off it.

RedMan1
02-13-2008, 05:28 PM
"If you are underfunded, understaffed or overcrowded then I say release them."

Wow you sound like a slime ball inmate hugger, then I looked at your profile no wonder!


Courts have already ruled that overcrowding (and the effect thereof) can violate the 8th amendment. Here in LA, the sheriff has to release people from jail early to avoid the overcrowding mess. So I guess you think that the 8th amendment is for 'slime ball inmate huggers'.

By the way, calling people names is the last refuge of the defeated. You can't come up with a better thing to say than 'slime ball'? I'm dissapointed.

Jellybean400
02-13-2008, 06:11 PM
Yes, I totally understand that, and I said early on that I don't blame the officers for enforcing the rules.

I'm just a little surprised about how defensive some people get about policy. Heck, the policies of my organization suck and I'll talk for hours about how they could be better. I don't get mad at all if someone questions them.

Of course, if this really is absolutely the only way, then it's good that everyone is honest and says that.

Heres a good article that discusses a bit about how policies should be changed. It's kinda long, but good - i think.

http://www.philly.com/inquirer/front_page/20071213_Stripped_of_their_rights.html

D.C. Hughes
02-13-2008, 06:20 PM
Heres a good article that discusses a bit about how policies should be changed. It's kinda long, but good - i think.

http://www.philly.com/inquirer/front_page/20071213_Stripped_of_their_rights.html

"was arrested for attending an outdoor party that didn't have a city permit."

WTF!?!

I say again WTF!?!

Smurfette_76
02-13-2008, 06:31 PM
Key word is 'stripped'. Who cares if it was a search or not? They stripped her and kept her naked for hours. And she was in plain view of officers (male and female).

No, Counsel, the key word is searched, not stripped. No one argues that she was stripped IE-removed of clothing. The issue is that it wasn't for the purposes of a search, but for the purposes of protection and there is a difference. I find it ironic that you stated "who cares if it was a search or not" and then used reference in how they [courts] determine there can be no strip searches for minor crimes and misdemeanors, which btw, is incorrect also. I think, Counsel, you should find one side of the argument and stick to it. I also think you should care more about what is and isn’t a search, particularly if any of your clients have been accused of criminal offenses. In addition, you mention that police stations have been forced to change policy [with regards to strips] and I’ll point out that this incident does not involve a police station, but a jail. I’m sure you’d already caught all that, though.

RedMan1
02-13-2008, 07:52 PM
No, Counsel, the key word is searched, not stripped. No one argues that she was stripped IE-removed of clothing. The issue is that it wasn't for the purposes of a search, but for the purposes of protection and there is a difference.

I think the whole point of the video was the stripping. The fact that is was for her protection and not a search for contraband isn't in question. The 'force' used for the strip is probably what the lawyers will question, and also the presence of male police officers. The entire civil suit will hinge on her nudity.


I find it ironic that you stated "who cares if it was a search or not" and then used reference in how they [courts] determine there can be no strip searches for minor crimes and misdemeanors, which btw, is incorrect also.

You are the one who is incorrect. In CA, new policies have been put into place so that people with minor charges that do not involve drugs or violence will NOT be strip searched. The policy of strip searching EVERYONE who comes into a jail was deemed unreasonable by several state courts. New York too I believe. Google it.

Here's just one example of policy change due to civil lawsuits
http://www.lawcash.com/attorney/4512/san-mateo-county-lawsuit.asp


In addition, you mention that police stations have been forced to change policy [with regards to strips] and I’ll point out that this incident does not involve a police station, but a jail. I’m sure you’d already caught all that, though.

Unfortunately, news media sometimes don't distinguish jails from police stations (or police officers from corrections officers). Often they use the terms interchangeably. I know from an LE point of view, this is improper. I too am guilty of this transgression. I will try to be more specific, although I am glad you understood my point.

Smurfette_76
02-13-2008, 08:01 PM
The presence of male officers MIGHT be in violation of a policy, not a law. If I'm understanding it correctly, the Sheriff stated their presence in a strip SEARCH was improper; however, this wasn't a strip search. In relation to the force used, correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't SCOTUS stated over and over the right to use whatever force necessary to overcome the use of force against us? The defendant created the situation. If the only leg her lawyer has to stand on is the belief that a suicide smock be provided for her, don't they (in stating she should have had a suicide smock) then validate the very reason they removed her clothes to start with. What, in essence, is the arguement here? Embarrassment that male Officers were there? Her actions dictated such. Embarrassment that she sat naked in a cell? Possibly. However, we cannot make laws and policies that bend around the potential embarrassment a violent and uncooperative woman might feel because her clothing was removed. Too many laws and circumstances have dictated that everyone be treated the same and no special treatment is allowed. What that has created is an across the board treatment that I for one, don't necessarily agree with; but when my hands are tied by countless law suits and unnecessary claims made by those refusing to own up to their own behavior, I am reminded of how we got to where we are. If the situation demands I strip you because you threatened harm to yourself, I care not if you are white, black, purple, male, female, 125 pounds or 521 pounds. I will do my job.

D.C. Hughes
02-13-2008, 08:08 PM
You are the one who is incorrect. In CA, new policies have been put into place so that people with minor charges that do not involve drugs or violence will NOT be strip searched. The policy of strip searching EVERYONE who comes into a jail was deemed unreasonable by several state courts. New York too I believe. Google it.

Nope, she was correct. Re-read what she typed.

"Blanket" or universal strip search are unconstitutional. If there is probable cause an inidividual can be strip searched regardless of the charge...

Smurfette_76
02-13-2008, 08:33 PM
;) You're quick, babe :D

Entre Nous
02-13-2008, 09:01 PM
Heres a good article that discusses a bit about how policies should be changed. It's kinda long, but good - i think.

http://www.philly.com/inquirer/front_page/20071213_Stripped_of_their_rights.html

Very interesting article, Jelly.

BTW, I don't know if many people are aware of this, but some county children's homes do strip searches when they admit kids. At least the one in my county does (or did when I worked there). These kids are innocent of any wrong-doing, and are often already victims of humilation and sexual abuse. They come to what they think is a safe place, and next thing they know someone is telling them they have to be watched while they take all their clothes off. That's one policy that could certainly stand to be changed. :mad:

Jellybean400
02-13-2008, 09:50 PM
Very interesting article, Jelly.

BTW, I don't know if many people are aware of this, but some county children's homes do strip searches when they admit kids. At least the one in my county does (or did when I worked there). These kids are innocent of any wrong-doing, and are often already victims of humilation and sexual abuse. They come to what they think is a safe place, and next thing they know someone is telling them they have to be watched while they take all their clothes off. That's one policy that could certainly stand to be changed. :mad:

Yeah i thought so too.

And that's horrible about the kids.

I'm still wondering if mentally ill people have to lay around naked on the floor. I'm guessing they do, because the police dont know if someone is mentally ill or just angry or acting out. That's why i was googling strip-searching and found that article...and it happened to be local to me.

sinned
02-13-2008, 10:22 PM
I still think none of the reasons listed above justify it though. For (1) and (2), ff you are running a jail, you know you will be stripping people like this. So I think you should have all appropriate material in stock and on hand. Would a jail run out of pepper spray? I hope not. Same thing goes for blankets, smocks, food, toilet paper, etc. If you are underfunded, understaffed or overcrowded then I say release them. We would not run out of OC as we only use it once a month or so. We safety strip daily at our facility. Basically you are stating that the county should be forced to buy materials even though they are already budget stretched because of individuals CHOICE to act a fool and fail to obey lawful orders. In this case as in all, she CHOSE the course of actions that pre-empted this strip. Why should the county care about her modesty if she doesn’t at the time?


(3) just sounds like laziness. How hard is it to go, grab a smock, and hand it to someone. These people are in your custody. So you have to be responsible for them. You strip em, you cover em. Laziness?? How about if you try being responsible for every aspect of life for 350 people at the same time and then see if you have time to stop for one selfish individual who wants to take up the time of not one, but 2 or 3 or 5 deputies trying to care for their own 300+ inmates to go find a modesty gown.


(4) just sounds stupid, but I understand about stupid policies. I just don't follow them where I work. :D
So basically you don’t follow the rules if you don’t think they make sense. Gee, I wonder why we need police and jails in the first place.

Courts have already ruled that overcrowding (and the effect thereof) can violate the 8th amendment. Here in LA, the sheriff has to release people from jail early to avoid the overcrowding mess. So I guess you think that the 8th amendment is for 'slime ball inmate huggers'. Well since the least violent offender in my house only has 2 or 3 murder charges pending with a rape or 2 for good measure, which one should we release?

I think the whole point of the video was the stripping. The fact that is was for her protection and not a search for contraband isn't in question. The 'force' used for the strip is probably what the lawyers will question, and also the presence of male police officers. The entire civil suit will hinge on her nudity. The force was required for her safety. I guarantee this could have been done in less than 30 seconds…of course she would have spent some time in the infirmary. Our goal is to gain compliance WITHOUT hurting the inmate. Using 4 or 5 deputies is sometimes necessary to make sure they don’t hurt us and we get the job done without hurting them.

GroundPounder01
02-13-2008, 11:20 PM
What I would like to understand is how things went from 3 to 4. How does asking the officers to clarify whether they mean is she suicidal now or was she ever indicate that she is suicidal?

That is a question many of us would probably like to know as well. But due to this whole "right to privacy" thing, that department can not go parading around her incident. The court however, is a different story as it may become public record under the lawsuit. So, if we follow up on it when the suit is over, I am sure we will get many details we are not privy to now.

As for a generic answer I could pose to put light on.. Due to being incarcerated, an inmate does not have the ability to operate completely as a free person, and hence we as law enforcement are responsible for their welfare. A person coming in under an arrest goes through a series of questioning that helps us "suit" proper housing and needs tailored to that arrested person... Within limits of course. We are limitted by what our laws allow us to do and what a person is accomodated with in a jail setting. So, with these questions, specific things are observed and recorded by the admission of that person.

This reminds me of a funny note: People think its funny to come up with retarded aliases and to use them when questioned by the authorities, and are not aware of who may view these affixed names at later times.

Anyways, because we have not grown up with this newly arrested person, nor have much intimate knowledge of this person, we rely on what that person tells us. If they state anything "abnormal" of their mental health, we have to take serious consideration in addressing it. If we dont act on the issue at hand, is can be as serious as breaking the law itself. Law enforcement is a difficult job for this reason.

GroundPounder01
02-13-2008, 11:45 PM
OK, putting them in a little list was helpful, thank you for that.

I still think none of the reasons listed above justify it though. For (1) and (2), ff you are running a jail, you know you will be stripping people like this. So I think you should have all appropriate material in stock and on hand. Would a jail run out of pepper spray? I hope not. Same thing goes for blankets, smocks, food, toilet paper, etc. If you are underfunded, understaffed or overcrowded then I say release them.

(3) just sounds like laziness. How hard is it to go, grab a smock, and hand it to someone. These people are in your custody. So you have to be responsible for them. You strip em, you cover em.

(4) just sounds stupid, but I understand about stupid policies. I just don't follow them where I work. :D

I am glad the list helped!

As for my responce, I hope to maybe "enlighten" you with some key aspects to contemplate!

As for your first item of reply, I know this may be surprising, but there is alot of "UNDER FUNDING" that occurrs. Sheriff's Deparmtents operate on a budget, and like any other government agency, every item requested has to be approved by a council, generally the County Comissioners and Attorney Generals Office. Some counties just don't have the funding they need for items like this or other items that would make the job alot easier.. Trust us, we love toys, no matter what they are, and gratioucely accept them with open arms! As for running out of Pepper Spray, yes, it does happen. Along with ammunition, weapons, patrol vehicle, staff, and so on... You stated "If you are underfunded, understaffed or overcrowded then I say release them".. Hmm, well at first this sounds like a very good idea.. until you think about it a little bit more! Not to mention.. we dont get to choose who we keep and who we release, thats up to the courts and legislation governing laws and penalties. But if that was not a concern..

Who do we release?
How do you choose who gets released and who doesnt?
Is it one person that chooses, and who is to say its right?
What may be an appropriate release to one person, may not be to another, so do we vote not only for our president, but who to release next?

As for being responsible for the "you strip em, you cover em", that is a very utopic notion, but in reality... look at that persons actions.. If it were completely legal to just run around stripping people, I am sure many more would have a hay day on it. As for the safety smocks, and with a previous question you asked, they are safe, but not completely safe. They are a better alternative to clothing, but are not a guarentee. This goes with anything in life! Yes we are responsible for these people, which is why when they indicate they wish to terminate their lives we intervene even if that means they go through a moment of unpleasantries to extend their life and hopefully do something with it, regardless of how we may feel about them!

As for the stupid policies.. here's something slightly uncomfortable but please view it open minded as possible! First.. where do "stupid policies" come from? Stupid people! Someone, somewhere has done something that has miraciousley outweighed common sense and acted accordingly. (This is why we now get to walk around with disposable coffee cups from fast food that say "Warning- HOT"). Who has ever woke up in the morning and decided "You know, today I am going to go into the kitchen and drink a bottle of draino!".. I promise you someone has, which is why it says not to on the label. Now you and I may never have the interest in causing ourselves harm, but some out there do... Why? Please ask them as I dont understand why! But anyways, because they have, now we get a cool new policy to follow, to which you say is stupid. Whether you choose to follow a policy that makes sense to you or not is your freedom, but you know regardless there is a consequence! The next time you go out and end up arrested, think about what your response is going to be to a question when asked by the authorities.. You can weigh the outcomes and decide for yourself if thats something you want to persue.

RedMan1
02-14-2008, 01:08 AM
We safety strip daily at our facility.
lotta suicidals at your facility?

And what happens later? What if they stay suicidal?


In this case as in all, she CHOSE the course of actions that pre-empted this strip. Why should the county care about her modesty if she doesn’t at the time?

Well I'm sure she would disagree. And I'm not sure that she chose the be gang stripped either. Wasn't the report saying that she wasn't given any warnings? I mean her side of the report.

And here's just a question out of curiosity.. What if they ask if you are suicidal and refuse to answer? What if you refuse to answer medical questions? what happens then?

Smurfette_76
02-14-2008, 01:36 AM
Gang stripped. Hmmmm...interesting play on words. Extremely disrespectful to those persons that have actually been gang raped. That's what you're going for isn't it? Shock factor. You can't simply state the fact of "Due to her combative nature, four Deputies removed her clothing." Too boring for you? You have to make it seem shocking, huh?

The liability comes into play when someone states they are a danger to themselves or others. The Officers/Department are now in a position to react to that. If they don't answer the question, how would you presume to hold them responsible for the defendant later harms themselves? Should they have consulted the majic 8 ball for the answer?

Now I have a question for the lawyer...I've always been curious. How do you raise your children to understand right from wrong? Is it that you're right if you have the money to get out of it or the money to hire the right lawyer...or does the Officers failure to dot the right i or cross the right t that makes you innocent. I'm just curious. As I watched a lawyer defend a man we found climbing out of a bedroom window after raping a woman, I couldn't help but realize the lawyer was sicker than the defendant.

scratched13
02-14-2008, 01:39 AM
"was arrested for attending an outdoor party that didn't have a city permit."

WTF!?!

I say again WTF!?!

Hello ...... media!!!!!! Sure, THIS wasn't one sided!!!!!!!!!!!:rolleyes:

scratched13
02-14-2008, 01:47 AM
Gang stripped. Hmmmm...interesting play on words. Extremely disrespectful to those persons that have actually been gang raped. That's what you're going for isn't it? Shock factor. You can't simply state the fact of "Due to her combative nature, four Deputies removed her clothing." Too boring for you? You have to make it seem shocking, huh?

The liability comes into play when someone states they are a danger to themselves or others. The Officers/Department are now in a position to react to that. If they don't answer the question, how would you presume to hold them responsible for the defendant later harms themselves? Should they have consulted the majic 8 ball for the answer?

Now I have a question for the lawyer...I've always been curious. How do you raise your children to understand right from wrong? Is it that you're right if you have the money to get out of it or the money to hire the right lawyer...or does the Officers failure to dot the right i or cross the right t that makes you innocent. I'm just curious. As I watched a lawyer defend a man we found climbing out of a bedroom window after raping a woman, I couldn't help but realize the lawyer was sicker than the defendant.

AND THE LAWYER GETS B-I-T-C-H SLAPPED TO THE OTHER SIDE OF THE RING!!!!!!!!:eek: