AR-15 Vs. Shotgun

[kyletx]

Just started FTO, going to be working in a rough and rural area. Right now my only firearm is a Glock 22, eventually I need to purchase either a rifle or shotgun. Which would be the better option, and what are the pros/cons of both?


Kyle

[Gene L]

Rifle, IMO. I don't like a guage, as they're limited in range, and more so because just about everyone carries 00 Buck. Past 25 yards, you will probably hit a man-sized target, but with only two or three pellets.

Most people like shotguns, however. We issue both.

[SoCalSheriff]

Each has its own purpose. I dont think either one could do both jobs as well itself, than having them both.

It is quite a bit of cash to fork over to outfit yourself with a new shotty and a rifle all at once. Might I suggest you buy a shotgun first, then save the money for the rifle. You can always carry a few slugs in a sidesaddle. They are accurate out to 100 yards or more.

The rifle will be better for "active shooter" scenarios and at engaging hardened targets. Again, I would want (and do carry) both, but for a temporary fix, I would buy the shotgun first.

[fyrdog]

I don't want to get into the rifle vs. shotgun ******* contest, they both have their good points, and bad points. Conventional wisdom is that the patrol carbine in a "rifle" caliber has more good points than bad. However they tend to cost more than a shotgun, and if you want a long gun NOW & not THEN a shotgun might be the way to go. I would still save up my pennies and buy a patrol carbine as soon as possible, and if possible as SoCalSheriff said if you can carry both then do so.

Now if you decide to carry a shotgun as your first long gun and work on saving up for the rifle/carbine, then understand that with "normal" foster type slugs you will not be able to defeat heavy cover or soft body armor. The foster slug will just simply not, defeat these threats. However as a stop gap measure until a rifle arrives there is a slug round out there that may give you a better chance. The Hornady SST shotgun slug is a saboted 300grain jacketed round equipped with Hornady's Ballistic Nylon tip. While I haven't been able to find any data on this round being tested against soft armor, it looks promising and I have no reason to believe that it won't outperform the foster slug in these areas. So for that reason I’ve bought a couple of boxes and carry them in my grab and go bag for the shotgun. The only reason I don’t keep these rounds loaded in the shotgun is that they are currently not approved for duty use. All of our duty ammo is issued

http://www.hornady.com/media/2006catalog/Hornady_Ammo_Shotgun.pdf

[Mstangfk]

ill take one of these...depts should issue them..lol

[Blackdog F4i]

If you work in a Rural area a Patrol Rifle will serve you much better in just about every area. The limiting factor will actually be the ammo your agency issues you. My Agency uses low-penetration rounds (Federal TRU-223E) that will not reliably penetrate intermediate barriers. To that end I supplement my rifle with the Remington 870 with Federal Tactical 00 Buck and 1oz. Slugs. If I have to do a vehicle takedown I grab the shotgun. For everything else I use my rifle. In a rural enviroment you chances of having to take a shot over 15 yards are a lot greater more than 15 yards means buckshot will not be as effective (or keep all pellets on the target) even at 15-50 yards you are not going to have near the precision you would with an AR.

In an Active Shooter Situation the AR is superior. Even the NTOA recommends the AR over shotgun for these scenarios.

The shotgun still has it's place. There is NOTHING that delivers quite as devastating a load at close range than a shotgun with 00 Buck.

[NORCOCOP]

WHat are your options for patrol rifle? I was just wondering if you are limited or can pick anyhitng that is reliable. I love my shotty, but only are Sgt's carry AR's. I can't get past the idea we can carry everything else, but it takes stripes to handle a rifle,wtf? I wish I could buy my own. Most of the Sgt's don't have militry experience either, so it would be better to have guys who have prvious experience doing the shooting. I can hit 10 out of 10 at 500 yards iron sighted. They only train out to 75 yards.

It was actually funny one of the Sgt's that was in the Corps 20 years ago, kept trying to use the reflex sight in conjunction with the front sight post and had to re qualify a few times.

Oh well I guess they know best, they hold all of the cards.

[135dB]

I would like a rifles greater capacity, range and less recoil

[R12GS]

Rifle. Shotguns in the war effort are used primarily for breeching devices only these days.

[tpra1]

I was in the same situation a few years ago. I went with the shotgun and saved for the rifle. Don't forget regs may restrict you to what you can select.

Blackdog and Fyrdog both have good points. With sabot-slug ammo, you would need a fully rifled slug barrel or rifled choke tube. You should stick with foster-style slugs. That way with a smooth bore, you can switch between slugs and buck as needed. Federal HST Tru Ball is a nice option. If you can afford it, check out the Vang Comp system for shotgun barrels. Also the Remingtonle.com website is pretty good.

[Blackdog F4i]

It was actually funny one of the Sgt's that was in the Corps 20 years ago, kept trying to use the reflex sight in conjunction with the front sight post and had to re qualify a few times.

Awwww, shaddup! I did that the first time I shot a rifle with a Trijicon Reflex. I still put them in a 6" circle at 100 yards, but I couldn't figure out what the advantage to the sight was. Then the owner explained how that "new fangled optic" worked.

Shooting optics is not part of the Marine Corps basic marksmanship training.

Obviously I have a little experience with them now since I have an Aimpoint on my M4.

[T365F]

Two different tools.
I've carried both and believe the AR to be too much on the urban street ie: taking down a car with other officers onscene and surrounding the mv (ie: overpenetration ricochets etc)
For an urban street gun, the shotgun with tactical buck is the best in my opinion. The pattern stays together well enough and i believe it would serve you well in a stressed out situation shooting at an armed moving target that is in close proximity - as most shootings are. Think of a shooter bailing out of a car with a gun, or coming out of a robbery etc.
The AR however is of course more precise and able to defeat body armor and is capable of carrying 30 rds ready to go. Going against a barricaded suspect? Bank robbery, or some serious gun guy? Get the AR - he's probably got armor on.

[farrellsm77]

I agree that the shotgun and the AR-15 are different tools for different situations.

[Gene L]

Our state forensics and firearms Lab Supervisor does a lot of testing of different calibers and ammo.

She said the "Controlled Recoil" buckshot rounds by Federal groups far better than any other round she tested at all ranges. And she had patters to prove it. So that's what I would use and what we're going to buy once we run out of the current supply.

Our policy doesn't allow slugs, but they're good for extended range. Nor does our policy allow shooting at or from a moving vehicle.

Slugs and buckshot will ricochet on and on and on. They're like a .22 rifle bullet. A 55 gr. .223 will almost always fragment. But when you get into the heavier rounds, they're not moving fast enough to get that good fragmentation. That's why I like .55 gr. rounds for duty, and 69 gr. rounds for matches. The mil-surp ones with the steel pentrator are not accurate, but they will penetrate, so I'd stay away from them.

A .55 gr. FMJ will generally (according to testing) travel about 12" into ballistic gel before the rear end outruns the front end, whereupon it will take a "J" shaped path. And many times it will break at the cannalure.

[KenW.]

I'm a shotgun guy. When my office first started putting the AR out in the vehicles, you had to turn in you shotgun to get it; to which I said "No Thanks". I kept the mossberg 500 because of the intimidation factor, and my extensive experience hunting deer with a shotgun (Winchester model 12).

We use triple ought buck, and keep a sidesaddle full of slug. The ghost ring sights are very accurate. COM hits from prone at 100 yds are required to qualify with one. That's all the further we shoot the AR in training anyway.

I stay qual'd on the AR just in case they let me keep the SG AND give me a rifle.

One is NOT a total replacement for the other.

[Gene L]

Some people are definitely better with a shotgun, but I'm not one of them. I had a single barrel Winchester when I was growing up, but couldn't afford to buy shells for it, more than five or six at a time, and don't have a history of bird or even rabbit hunting.

As I said, we have both.

I don't believe in the "intimidation factor" of any deadly weapon. No offense, but that's just not what a deadly weapon is designed for. Certainly, we should not expect it to intimidate. And once you rack that slide, you've crossed a line.

Now, for intimidation, a Taser is great.

[KenW.]

And once you rack that slide, you've crossed a line.

Because I've charged the weapon does not mean I have to kill someone; It means I am prepared to.

Step out of my rig and chamber a round, everyone's attention is on ME. Everyone knows who is in charge.

[Blackdog F4i]

You know the funny thing is I have gotten complaints on that from A PEPPERBALL GUN when I chambered a ball. LOL

I agree that a rifle is not a complete replacement for a shotgun much in the same way a power drill/driver is not a replacement for a screwdriver. They are both tools to have in the toolbox and one may fit a need a smidge better than another.

[11b101abn]

Our state forensics and firearms Lab Supervisor does a lot of testing of different calibers and ammo.

She said the "Controlled Recoil" buckshot rounds by Federal groups far better than any other round she tested at all ranges. And she had patters to prove it. So that's what I would use and what we're going to buy once we run out of the current supply.

Our policy doesn't allow slugs, but they're good for extended range. Nor does our policy allow shooting at or from a moving vehicle.

Slugs and buckshot will ricochet on and on and on. They're like a .22 rifle bullet. A 55 gr. .223 will almost always fragment. But when you get into the heavier rounds, they're not moving fast enough to get that good fragmentation. That's why I like .55 gr. rounds for duty, and 69 gr. rounds for matches. The mil-surp ones with the steel pentrator are not accurate, but they will penetrate, so I'd stay away from them.

A .55 gr. FMJ will generally (according to testing) travel about 12" into ballistic gel before the rear end outruns the front end, whereupon it will take a "J" shaped path. And many times it will break at the cannalure.

What's the deal w/ your policy on slugs? Do you consider them specialized ammo, or is there some other reason?

[Gene L]

What's the deal w/ your policy on slugs? Do you consider them specialized ammo, or is there some other reason?

For one thing, we have rifles. But our firearms policy is modeled after the other firearms policies which don't allow slugs.

They ricochet a lot, especially off pavement. I guess that is the thinking behind it. Our shotguns do not have rifle sights, either. And while the slugs are totally effective out to normal police ranges and quite accurate if you have sights on your shotgun, we aren't equipped to use them to the best of their advantage.

I still like the ARs, however, even if we could carry slugs. I think the average joe patroleman can work an AR easier than a shotgun, and I say this from the POV of a firearms instructor. In training, there are always several folks who don't know to press the button so they can get the slide back.

The City of New York issues double barrel Stevens because of the problem. You can train it out of cops, of course, but under stress, they're likely to forget the basics.

[Mstangfk]

For one thing, we have rifles. But our firearms policy is modeled after the other firearms policies which don't allow slugs.

They ricochet a lot, especially off pavement. I guess that is the thinking behind it. Our shotguns do not have rifle sights, either. And while the slugs are totally effective out to normal police ranges and quite accurate if you have sights on your shotgun, we aren't equipped to use them to the best of their advantage.

I still like the ARs, however, even if we could carry slugs. I think the average joe patroleman can work an AR easier than a shotgun, and I say this from the POV of a firearms instructor. In training, there are always several folks who don't know to press the button so they can get the slide back.

The City of New York issues double barrel Stevens because of the problem. You can train it out of cops, of course, but under stress, they're likely to forget the basics.


i agree, mostly because the basic operation of the AR style rifle are about the same as a average semi-auto pistol.

i taught my wife in about 5 mins, and it took her alot longer on the shotgun..

[Blackdog F4i]

They ricochet a lot, especially off pavement.

Unfortunately so does just about any other projectile with the exception of light "varmint" rounds.

To carry slugs "ON" our shotguns (because we are not allowed to carry them IN the magazine) we have to qualify 100%. If you miss even one you can't carry them.

IMHO ricochet is not a good justification for any firearms policy. Training should be the solution. Hell, we train to USE ricochet with buckshot in certain situations.

[fyrdog]

To carry slugs "ON" our shotguns (because we are not allowed to carry them IN the magazine) we have to qualify 100%.

Our shotgun policy is a little bit different, a shotgun is issued to a specific officer (3 out of 22 are armed with shotguns), but patrol carbines are assigned to a vehicle with the exception of the SWAT guys of course. We are allowed to keep our shotguns loaded in any way that the officer desires, as long as he uses Dept. issued "combat" ammo. I threw in the combat remark because we are each also given 10 rounds of low brass bird shot for pest control problems. Currently I keep mine loaded buck, slug, buck, slug with three of each in the saddle as well. The Dept. is currently looking at buying Poly Shok ammo for our slug rounds, so that would do away with most of the ricochet concerns, but currently we just use the regular 1oz foster slugs.

[David Hineline]

Of course there is the shotgun mount onto the AR15 rifle or a combination gun like the Crossfire

http://www.gengerketactical.com/pictures/600DSCN1448.jpg

[Blackdog F4i]

Our shotgun policy is a little bit different, a shotgun is issued to a specific officer (3 out of 22 are armed with shotguns), but patrol carbines are assigned to a vehicle with the exception of the SWAT guys of course.

That seems a little backwards. Generally you see the shotguns as "general issue" and the rifles as personal issue. This is important since shotguns generally have fixed sights and are less dependant on the adjustments. Whereas with a rifle, someone fiddling with the sights can make the difference between a hit and a complete miss.

[fyrdog]

That seems a little backwards.

Actually I think it's very backwards, but I don't write policy. We have several Mossberg 500's sitting in the locker, and I know some of the supervisors have asked that they be assigned out to the cruisers. But to date the decision from on high has been no. I'm not sure if this is coming from the administration, the FTU or a combination of the two. I try and look on the up side; at least we have rifles in the cruisers. I do agree with you 100% on the issues concerning mucking around with the sights on the rifles, I have watched one officer who used to play with the elevation on the rear sight all of the time. This is why I think a department that assigns a rifle to a vehicle and uses iron sights should use something similar to M-16A1 sights to minimize that problem. Hopefully the reflex sights that we just went to will take care of that problem, they don't have that big old knob that just screams turn me.

As far as officers being assigned a personal rifle, not very likely. Every agency that I know in my part of the state that that uses patrol carbines/rifles assigns them to the vehicle not the officer. The only exception being county and state police units, because they have take home cruisers.
I also am not aware of any agency that "normally" allows patrol officers to carry personal rifles while on patrol. I say normally because when we were having bear problems last year a couple of us were authorized to carry personal rifles in a more appropriate caliber for that threat.

[Gene L]

Unfortunately so does just about any other projectile with the exception of light "varmint" rounds.

To carry slugs "ON" our shotguns (because we are not allowed to carry them IN the magazine) we have to qualify 100%. If you miss even one you can't carry them.

IMHO ricochet is not a good justification for any firearms policy. Training should be the solution. Hell, we train to USE ricochet with buckshot in certain situations.

Ricochet is not an especially good justification, I agree. Especially where I live.

On the other hand, I can't think of a justification FOR carrying slugs. Not if you've got a rifle.

Here's a 'speriment....take a standard silhoutte target, draw a line at the chin, step back 25 yards. The line represents cover, and no hits below that line count. Now, (if you're an instructor) get two pretty good shots and tell them they have 20 seconds to hit that target as many times as possible. Reloading is permitted.

When I did this test, the shotgun got one hit in the ear. The guy shooting the pistol didn't get any hits.

If you use that controlled recoil ammo, you'll probably get different resultts, we were using 00 Buck.

I had a .22 rifle at the range, a Nylon 66 with iron sights. and was able to put 11 rounds straight into the brain pan in something like 12 seconds.

Now, that's why I like a rifle. I'd rather have a .22 rimfire than a shogun if it comes to a real situation. Shooting for qualificatioin, with a fully exposed target you get a higher percentage of hits, of course.

Shotgun efficiency can be trained into someone, but it takes way more training than it's worth. Training hours are like money in the bank, and I have to weigh the overtime we pay against the benefits we recieve. And, to make things worse, there is more mandated training each year.

But, mostly, I don't like shotguns much. I shoot one OK, and when I attended Firearms Instructor School, we had a contest as to speedloading and firing, and I won over about 60 others, by loading over the top instead of from the bottom (at least I think that's why I won.) You know the drill; fire two rounds from the chamber and speed reload. But it still didn't make me like them.

I carried a sawed-off Ithaca as a back-up weapon in Viet Nam, sawed at the barrel and the stock, because it was better at very close range than a .45, but never had to use it.

[Blackdog F4i]

Shotgun efficiency can be trained into someone, but it takes way more training than it's worth. Training hours are like money in the bank, and I have to weigh the overtime we pay against the benefits we recieve. And, to make things worse, there is more mandated training each year.

I will agree with you there. We shoot our department mandated 10 rounds of 00 buck a year plus 5 rounds of slud IF you want to carry it.

I am one of the few that truly ENJOY shooting shotgun. I feel it's one of those weapons that you can spend a lifetime trying to master. If you don't routinely train on the techniques it will beat you up.

It is a lot less intimidating to hand someone an AR and tell them to put 30 rounds into the target than it is to hand them a 870 have them do the same with 6 rounds of 00 Buck.

[KenW.]

10 rounds of 00 buck a year plus 5 rounds of slud

That's ridiculous.

We can qual twice a year on all our weapons, and I do. We'll shoot a couple 25rd boxes of trap loads to save a few dollars, but we still shoot a box 000 buck, and maybe 10-15 rds of slug. Our courses of fire changes each time.

Conversely, we only shoot about 15-20 rounds (if that) of .223 every six months.

Why 00 over 000? 6 .36 pellets work great. Fewer projectiles you're responsible for too. Spread is only about 6-8 inches at 7-10 yards.
Beyond 12-15 select slug.

[Gene L]

At 7-10 yards, why not select "pistol?" And, as I said, we don't have slugs.

There are two principals I've always endoresed, and I teach it to my guys: never take a stick to a knife fight, and never take a handgun or shotgun to a rifle fight. If you do so, you'll lose almost every time.

[knxdep20]

I agree with Blackdog, the sound of someone racking a round of a shotgun just intimidates the hell out of anyone. I duck hunt and have gotten pretty reliable with the shotgun. Now shooting #2's vs 00 buck is different but the practice that I have had helps me shoot 100's with my mossburg 590A1. Just practice and you can just about anything with a shotgun.

[jwise]

My shotty never sees the light of day. I have absolutely no use for it. I can't imagine wanting it in my hands as opposed to my AR.

It's a neat firearm, but I consider it a hunting implement, not a combat arm.

Maybe if I had to shoot a swarm of birds, viciously attacking the police station? ;)

[jwise]

And we qualify with the shotgun only once a year, and it is just 5 rounds of 00 buck. We shoot bowling pins at 10yds or so.

I've never been "trained" on handling the shotgun tactically, and have no experience "speed-loading" it. We have no sidesaddles, and no slugs.

On the other hand, I have been through several in-depth classes with the AR, qualify with mine every month on a 30rd shooting course (mag-changes, transitions, etc...), and am extremely comfortable with that platform.

This might explain why I don't see my shotty as a viable alternative.

[KenW.]

At 7-10 yards, why not select "pistol?"

There was apparently some reason to have the shotgun in your hands or it'd have stayed in the car.

Make use of it.

[Blackdog F4i]

This might explain why I don't see my shotty as a viable alternative.


It's only natural to grab what you have the most training with. This is one of the reasons my AR sees 90% of my long gun use. It's an extension of my body even more so than my pistol.

However when we went through our initial firearms training the patrol rifle was still being mulled over by the brass, so the shotgun was the only long-gun option. We got ALOT of progressive training with the Remington 870. Not just how to shoot it well, but how to shoot it FAST. Speed loading drills, single loading, select slug, etc. We ran drills until our shoulders ached. Most of our training was with #8 shot because it's cheaper and easier on the steel. Ironically it seems to recoil harder than the Federal Tactical (low-recoil) 00 Buck duty loads.

I am sure if I had a week and ten cases of #8 shot I could get you to see the shotgun in a different light.

Regardless a double tap from a .223 or a single shot from 00 Buck at close range is still going to have a similar effect. The target is almost gauranteed to stop what he is doing and re-evaluate his views on the afterlife.

[11b101abn]

For one thing, we have rifles. But our firearms policy is modeled after the other firearms policies which don't allow slugs.

They ricochet a lot, especially off pavement. I guess that is the thinking behind it. Our shotguns do not have rifle sights, either. And while the slugs are totally effective out to normal police ranges and quite accurate if you have sights on your shotgun, we aren't equipped to use them to the best of their advantage.

I still like the ARs, however, even if we could carry slugs. I think the average joe patroleman can work an AR easier than a shotgun, and I say this from the POV of a firearms instructor. In training, there are always several folks who don't know to press the button so they can get the slide back.

The City of New York issues double barrel Stevens because of the problem. You can train it out of cops, of course, but under stress, they're likely to forget the basics.

Okay, good enough for me. Thanks, Chief.

[kruwl]

.........................................

[fyrdog]

PS: fyrdog quote: "I also am not aware of any agency that "normally" allows patrol officers to carry personal rifles while on patrol. "

Just for your 43:
My agency allows personal rifles on patrol if the following qualifications are met:
1. It is an AR.
2. It is checked and approved by our Armorer.
3. It is used during a yearly qualification, which you must pass.
Some guys are allowed to carry their .308 bolts but they are snipers.

Ok kruwl,

I forgot three very important words with that statement. The re-written quote should read like this.

I also am not aware of any agency IN MY AREA that "normally" allows patrol officers to carry personal rifles while on patrol.

However in the first line in that paragraph said
As far as officers being assigned a personal rifle, not very likely. Every agency that I know in my part of the state that that uses patrol carbines/rifles assigns them to the vehicle not the officer.

I am sorry for any oversight on my part, but I thought that the first sentence of the paragraph indicated that I was only referencing my particular area.

[KenW.]

(6) spare (unapproved) shotgun shells ranging from 00 buck, slugs and shotgun flares.

What? No flechettes?

[Red Swan]

Could you not get both..but instead of the ar-15 get a cheap ak, I know of a few officers that have ak-47's and a few 30 round clips some even carry 50 round drums, the guns are cheap when there surplus, and they can be set up to very tactical and effective.:cool:

[Blackdog F4i]

That's all well and good for a all-out gun battle (North Hollywood style), but how about the idiot holding a knife to his daughters throat. You going to bust out an AK for that, then attempt to explain in court why you clipped sis with your unauthorized weapon that you are NOT trained and certified to carry?

Stick with authorized weapons that you are trained to carry. My training with my AR is documented and my Zero target is on file to show that my weapon system is capable.

If I ever have a shoot go bad I can document why/how I was authorized to use that weapon.

[ArkansasFan24]

Just started FTO, going to be working in a rough and rural area. Right now my only firearm is a Glock 22, eventually I need to purchase either a rifle or shotgun. Which would be the better option, and what are the pros/cons of both?


Kyle

Honestly, if given the option, I'd get both. The AR-15 will be the priciest. You can get a shotgun (Remington or Mossberg) for very little if you shop around. Remember if you buy it for use at work then it's tax write off. ;)

[GLOCKMASTER]

I agree with Blackdog, the sound of someone racking a round of a shotgun just intimidates the hell out of anyone.

If someone hears me racking a shotgun, it's because I shot once and getting ready to shoot again.

If the bad guy hears you racking an 870 you are behind the curve in situational awareness.

I'll take the AR any day over the shotgun. You can do everything with the AR that you can with the shotgun(and then some) except use it as a breaching tool.

[KenW.]

explain in court why you clipped sis with your unauthorized weapon that you are NOT trained and certified to carry?

I've said the exact same thing about guys carrying those "tactical" folders as weapons.

Carried with the intent to use it as a tool for entering a building, cutting seatbelts, etc is one thing. But carry as a weapon when not trained is another.

[KenW.]

If someone hears me racking a shotgun, it's because I shot once and getting ready to shoot again.

Our shotguns are in the cars in "cruiser ready" condition. Empty chamber, hammer down, mag full of 000 buck, sidesaddle full of 1 oz. slug.

It is racked over upon exiting the car.

[Gene L]

Racking a shotgun is the equivalent of cocking a DA revolver. Nah, a deadly weapon is NOT for intimidation.

[KenW.]

Racking a shotgun is the equivalent of cocking a DA revolver.

Actually, no. To re-holster the revolver you'd need to de-cock. We holster a lot more than we shoot.

The shotgun can be racked, the safety engaged, then slung. Which is generally what happens. I can get a round on target nearly as quickly from a slung shotgun (moss. 500) as I can from a holstered pistol. And with 000 buck, the sight picture it needn't be nearly as precise at close range.

I'll give. The sound of a shotgun or other deadly weapon being chambered is not for initimidation; it is an added benefit though.

[jwise]

That's all well and good for a all-out gun battle (North Hollywood style), but how about the idiot holding a knife to his daughters throat. You going to bust out an AK for that, then attempt to explain in court why you clipped sis with your unauthorized weapon that you are NOT trained and certified to carry?

Stick with authorized weapons that you are trained to carry. My training with my AR is documented and my Zero target is on file to show that my weapon system is capable.

If I ever have a shoot go bad I can document why/how I was authorized to use that weapon.

I'm qualified on my AK (well, one of them!), and I can hit an 8" pie plate at 100yds. Not stellar, but the trigger/sights are the limiting factor, not the barrel/ammo.

We don't keep our targets on file, just a record that we qualified and a record of our score.

[Frank Sector]

My shotty never sees the light of day. I have absolutely no use for it. I can't imagine wanting it in my hands as opposed to my AR.

It's a neat firearm, but I consider it a hunting implement, not a combat arm.

Maybe if I had to shoot a swarm of birds, viciously attacking the police station? ;)


Same here.

I can solve every problem with an AR that I could with a shotgun and much more because of added range and capacity.
We keep the shotguns in each car just in case but those who know combat carry a rifle.
If bullets are flying I would not pick up a shotgun and go into battle instead of using my M4.

[JTShooter]

I would take both (if I had both and I was LE). You never know what you're going to run against...

That is why God invented the sling after all... ;)

Better to have a not need.........

[Blackdog F4i]

If the bad guy hears you racking an 870 you are behind the curve in situational awareness.


Agreed. We carry our 870's in "Cruiser Ready" (empty chamber, full magazine, safety on). When I remove the shotgun from the trunk I chamber a round. The only thing a target is likely to hear would be the "click" of a safety as I mount the gun.

I HATE the "Hollywood" stereotype of racking the shotgun when you point it at a target. One of these days I am going to have to shoot some jackass because he thinks my shotgun is unloaded.

I however disagree about the itimidation of a deadly weapon. The "Intimidation" factor is exactly what has allowed many a suspect to live to see the inside of a courtroom. A firearm should NEVER be used for intimidation alone, but it's important that the suspect BE "intimidated" by the weapon AND the resolve of the officer holding it! This DOES NOT mean sacrifice tactics to look "tacti-cool" and scare the badguy. Your professionalism and proficiency should scare the hell out of him.

I have resolved a situation more than once by coming around a corner giving commands while looking through an Aimpoint mounted on my M4, or over the top of the sights on my 870. Something about that says "this is not the time to argue."

[KenW.]

If the bad guy hears you racking an 870 you are behind the curve in situational awareness.

They can hear it when they're in the front yard of thier trailer house making threats.

But yes, definately chamber a round as you egress your unit. That's the way I was trained too.

[tzbv2p]

If you get the shotty first, load it up with polyshok rounds.

http://www.polyshok.com/

Our department uses it exclusively in the shotguns, and it truly makes your standard shotty a long gun of sorts. The impact wounds are crazy too...