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Hoosier_Boy
12-06-2007, 01:46 AM
I just became a reserve officer in Indiana where we have to get our own weapons. The department carries a glock .45 acp but instead of going out and spending 600 bucks on a new piece my father has offered to give me a S&W model 4516 which has had 7 rounds fired through it. I was just wondering if any of the gun guru's here had any insight or background on the 4516? Or if I should just dish out the cash to carry the glock.

Bing_Oh
12-06-2007, 02:39 AM
What are you comfortable carrying? That's really going to be the bottom line.

You'll find mixed reviews about that generation of Smith & Wesson semiautos. I still own a 4006 Smith (the large-frame .40 version of the same weapon), which I used through my academy and through my first sworn position. I found it to be a very reliable and relatively accurate weapon (if a bit heavy).

I will say that I'm not sure about carrying a compact weapon with a 7-round capacity as a duty weapon, but others with more experience with the .45 will probably disagree (I know that there are quite a few people who swear by the 1911's and they only carry 7 rounds, but I also find that those same officers are forced to carry 4 or more spare mags on duty).

Some people will refer to the Shane and Chevy Kehoe shooting where one of the officer's Smith and Wessons of that generation had a disasterious malfunction (a broken firing pin) as a reason to never carry such a weapon, though I've never seen anything that indicated that was a design flaw common to the Smiths of that time. Likewise, you may talk to some people with very black and white personal opinions about S&W semiautos (mostly negative and springing from experiences with the Sigmas, which were not impressive weapons), with whom I disagree. To each his own, I suppose.

135dB
12-06-2007, 08:11 AM
had the same gun for a while. i probably put about 1000 rounds through it with no malfunctions i can remember. I got it used so I replaced the firing pin & extractor. I liked it though

Sgt. Geezer
12-06-2007, 09:27 AM
I have a 645 I've used on duty. It's the generation 2 (slab grips) full size versus your Generation 3 ( form grip.) Very heavy with low mag capacity.

If you can afford it I would suggest the Glock. Consider the issues you will have if you need to qualify. You will be out of step with everyone else in the department.

ISPCAPT
12-06-2007, 09:49 AM
The 4516 will serve you well. I've carried S&W autos since 1979 and have run well in excess of hundred thousand rds thru them over the years. S&W autos were issued by my dept for 32 yrs. Now that I'm retired I still carry them. S&W .45 autos are some of the best. You'll find they'll feed anything you can stick in the mag.

ChiTownDet
12-06-2007, 10:37 AM
I carried a Colt Commander for a number of years until our Dept. banned single action autos. I switched to the 4506 and also have a 4586 (DAO). Both a little heavy, but good for staying on target while shooting. Reliable guns, never a jam. Take it to the range and see how you like it. Also nice to carry Dad's duty weapon at work. ISPCapt. would know about their reliability, as Ill State Police have carried SW autos forever (one of the first in the country to convert to DA autos). Save the $$$. You can always buy something different down the line if you like. As a side note I always keep a .38 snub in my jacket/pants pocket as a "get off me gun,"...just in case..

Nightshift va
12-06-2007, 11:29 AM
I just became a reserve officer in Indiana where we have to get our own weapons. The department carries a glock .45 acp but instead of going out and spending 600 bucks on a new piece my father has offered to give me a S&W model 4516 which has had 7 rounds fired through it. I was just wondering if any of the gun guru's here had any insight or background on the 4516? Or if I should just dish out the cash to carry the glock.


The 4516 is an excellent weapon. It shoots very well and is very reliable and you should be able to get plenty of single stack mags at a deal. I had one and regret trading it in but still have and carry often my 3913 which has never misfired on me and Ive put thousands of rounds through the thing. Take a fraction of what you were gonna shell out on the Glock and buy yourself a good concealed holster and carry the 4516 then use the rest of your money for Christmas.:cool:

Nightshift va
12-06-2007, 11:33 AM
I have a 645 I've used on duty. It's the generation 2 (slab grips) full size versus your Generation 3 ( form grip.) Very heavy with low mag capacity.

If you can afford it I would suggest the Glock. Consider the issues you will have if you need to qualify. You will be out of step with everyone else in the department.

The smith he's talking about is a third generation single stack with the alluminum alloy (very light) frame and a stainless upper. Totally different from your 645. I think the 4516 weights maybe 26 to 28oz. Very light especially for a 45 acp. As for offduty quals on the range single stack quals are no problem as long as you getcha a few extra mags to make up for limited firepower in shooting 50round and 60round courses of fire. I shoot my KahrP40 and My 3913 when I qual and just carry four extra mags in my pockets and it works out fine.

toasterlocker
12-06-2007, 11:44 AM
I think the 3rd gen autos are highly underrated. I've had two 4506s pass through my hands, and I regretted selling both times so a third is on the way. Other autos may be lighter or have higher capacity, but if you are trying to save money there is nothing wrong with using the Smith until you have more money and can try out some other weapons and see if you prefer something else.

Blackdog F4i
12-06-2007, 01:51 PM
I have yet to see a S&W auto (except the M&P's) that I would trust my life to. None of the examples that were present at our academy could finish the qualification course without at least one malfunction. Some had critical malfunctions that took them off the line. I am far from a S&W expert, but that was enough to sway me away from them.

I would HIGHLY suggest you eat some Ramen Noodles, skip some nights out, and buy the Glock.

It's only your life you are protecting with it.....right?

DONT EVER SCRIMP ON WEAPONS OR BODY ARMOR. There are so many other areas of your life than you can afford to save money. Those are two areas where the BEST is what you want between you and a coffin.

Find a Glock LE dealer or contact Kieslers. You will find that they are quite a bit less than $600 with LE Pricing.

Nightshift va
12-06-2007, 02:35 PM
I have yet to see a S&W auto (except the M&P's) that I would trust my life to. None of the examples that were present at our academy could finish the qualification course without at least one malfunction. Some had critical malfunctions that took them off the line. I am far from a S&W expert, but that was enough to sway me away from them.

I would HIGHLY suggest you eat some Ramen Noodles, skip some nights out, and buy the Glock.

It's only your life you are protecting with it.....right?

DONT EVER SCRIMP ON WEAPONS OR BODY ARMOR. There are so many other areas of your life than you can afford to save money. Those are two areas where the BEST is what you want between you and a coffin.

Find a Glock LE dealer or contact Kieslers. You will find that they are quite a bit less than $600 with LE Pricing.


I don't know what the deal was with the Smith's your department used but Ive been doing this awhile and we have used Smiths since I started and have never had any issue's with any of the models weve used and not only can you bet your life on them many have since before WWII to include lawenforcement and the military. Glocks are fine but they havent been at it near as long as Smith. I agree some of their models are less desirable but to say a Glock is more dependable just is not true. No disrespect intended. I have a G27 that has malfunctioned on me and a 3913 that I tried to get to jam and could not. Overall both are reliable enough to carry, but it's definately personal preference. The Glocks are actually cheaper than many of the smiths anyway in price, that's one of the reasons so many departments use them. The M&P 40 our department went to though was actually cheaper in price and it won our T/E shoot out over all the Glock 40 models.

Mstangfk
12-06-2007, 03:42 PM
i enjoy a friends 5906 smith, excellent gun IMO, highly accurate and will fire the cheapest crap ammo ever..no malfunctions ever, except a FTF when my wife limp wristed it.

Blackdog F4i
12-06-2007, 08:00 PM
I don't know what the deal was with the Smith's your department used .......

Not "MY" department, this was at ILEA. My department uses Glock 21's and had Sigs before that.

I don't have a dog in this fight. If you say they are reliable and the kid wants to use it, then great for him. Although using a gun because it was free, and not necesarrily the best choice dosent sit right with me.

YMMV.

The guy's not coming to back me up, and the likelyhood of me needing to pull ammo off his body is nill.

Hoosier_Boy
12-06-2007, 08:38 PM
After taking it out today I went through about 200 rounds... The gun seems to shoot well. My only complaint is the hammer. I really dislike the fact that the first trigger squeeze is a full squeeze followed by the rest being just half. Thanks for the input though. Was very useful.

Blackdog F4i
12-07-2007, 11:53 AM
It's called a DA/SA trigger. The first shot is Double Action, meaning it cocks the hammer then releases it. After the action cycles the rest of the shots are Single Action, meaning the pull of the trigger only released the hammer. Find somewhere you can shoot the Glock. I think you will find that you are much more accurate on the first shot (the one that counts).

If you are anywhere near the southern end of the state PM me and I can setup a time to let you try mine.

jwise
12-07-2007, 10:19 PM
My department issued me a free Smith auto. I bought (and carry) a Glock 21.

Lawenforcer72
12-07-2007, 10:45 PM
Ill tell you what, the m&p is a FINE gun, it took me awhile to get use to the trigger pull on it. The first time i picked up a glock i shot center mass 6 out of 6, first time i shot the m&p i shot low and left. I think the glock22 is an easier pick up and shoot gun, but i like the feel of the m&p to my hand much better, so i just practiced and am now shooting 6/6 center mass with my m&p .40.

Either or is good. you cant beat a smith revolver though.. those are damn good

fyrdog
12-08-2007, 12:14 AM
My department issued me a free Smith auto.

How’d you get so lucky?

I’ve owned two G-23’s gen-2 and one G-19 gen-1, (all have been sold off) and I’m currently issued a G-22 gen-3. Basically I’d trade any of them in and carry my S&W 3914. I’ve shot the textured Hogue grips on mine smooth and never had any real problems, other than a couple FTF’s with cheap ammo (tap, rack bang, and ready to go) . The Glocks just don’t fit my hand worth a darn and the finger groves they started to put on them only make it worse.

The only change I’ve considered making to my smith was to send back to the factory and have it “up graded” to a de-cock only system. Other than that I personally prefer a DA/SA weapon, and I find that for me the transition from DA to SA is no harder than remembering to use the short trigger rest on the Glock.

jwise
12-08-2007, 12:55 AM
But we're not talking about M&Ps, otherwise you have a very good point.

Nightshift va
12-08-2007, 04:24 AM
I guess it really is personal prefference. Im fine with traditional double action similar to the military beretta's we carried in the USMC. So coming out of the infantry into L.E. was ok because I was issued a Smith 659, talk about a heavy hunk of stainless steel. I was a huge Glock fan also but for some reason my collection tends to favor many smith's. Between 91 and 2002 I owned a Glock 21-23-19-17 and 27. I ended up getting rid of them all but my G27 then when I suggested they be included in our department T/E in 2006 to decide which gun we wanted to go to the M&P won overall by everyone who shot them both on the range. I thought the G22 was going to be our new duty weapon til we tried the M&P's. Sig and H&K weren't included due to their cost. It's all preference, personally I would love to have a 4516 as an offduty carry weapon since I love my 3913 so much. The only thing I dont like about the third generation smith's is when you release a full mag many times you will strip off the top round easily. But ive never had any issue's when firing any of their semi's.

GCPD0171
12-08-2007, 05:29 PM
My Department used to issue the 4516 to Detectives and other plain clothes folks. Uniform officers carried the 4576. I don't recall many issues with either. I never had malfunctions with my 4576. We got rid of them just because S&W wanted agencies to upgrade guns rather than provide parts and service for older guns. I know several agencies that went away from S&W just because of that.

Blackdog F4i
12-09-2007, 04:01 PM
I guess it really is personal prefference. Im fine with traditional double action similar to the military beretta's we carried in the USMC.

I guess it is personal preference because even though I always shot expert, I HATED the M9. It was one of the biggest POS pistols I have ever shot. I can shoot them well, but I still think DA/SA is a bad idea.

Tech-Anthony
12-09-2007, 06:35 PM
Spend the extra bit of cash and buy the G-21 your life will be depending on your weapon. You should get a nice little discount LE discount and should come up with one for under 500. But it is your life not mine so make your own decision and good luck.