CIA/FBI etc... Foreign Allegiance?

[OFFMason]

Hello everyone.

I was recently browsing the CIA's official website to take a serious gander at the process and essential requirements for one's quest to attain employment with the agency.

Looking over some of the information, I found that the agency will work to ensure that you are free of any foreign allegiances.

My question:
What constitutes a foreign allegiance that can disqualify you from the running?

A little background info about myself:
I am 20 years of age, currently entering my senior year at university. I plan on going to law school right after I graduate, with the subsequent goal of entering either federal law enforcement or the intelligence community. I am fluent in Russian, I understand a lot of Polish (probably not enough to pass a rigorous exam), and I look forward to learning Arabic on my free time.

I am also Jewish. Now what does that have to do with anything -- you might ask?

I have almost no doubts that my loyalty to Israel will be questioned if I seek a very sensitive intelligence or enforcement position.

If I were asked, where do I stand on Israel and the United States? This is how I would reply.

I must be honest, I love both countries. My family immigrated here from the Soviet Union (I was born here) and our love for America is beyond words. It took us in, as it has many other immigrant families from all over the world. When you travel outside of the major cities you begin to realize just how wonderful America is - the people, the land... the country.

I believe that the vast majority of Americans, the hardworking and honest people living in the country, deserve to be protected at almost any cost. America just like any country has criminals and those that are not necessarily deserving of protection, but when you see some of these great folks in America making an honest living, who welcome you into their homes and neighborhoods... you begin to grow a special admiration for this country.

In regards to Israel, it's the home of my religion.. my nation. It protects Jews all over the world. It has many enemies and is quite vulnerable to destruction. It is the ally of my country, America. Both countries have a special relationship, but I would understand the intelligence community's distrust of my loyalty.

How would I go about proving my loyalty to America? I can honestly say, even though it can't easily be proven, that I would never share intelligence with Israel - professionalism is very important to me. On the other hand, I wouldn't spy on Israel - and there lies the dilemma. I also wouldn't spy on the United States. It is like choosing between a mother and a father. I want all the lovely people of the United States to have a safe home for their children, but I also want the same for Israel. Blacks, Muslims, Jews, Christians... we Americans were all attacked on 9/11.

Although I'm sure both countries agree to refrain from spying on one another in a deceitful manner, the unofficial truth might be far different.

I'd much rather work for American intelligence, seeing as how this is my country, and Israel has its own basket to pick from. I've lived all of my life in this country, and I want to protect it from our relatively new global threats.

It scares me thinking about it.

I hope your feedback can quell some of my fears - and please no Jewish jokes. :)

[OFFMason]

Also...

I have never visited Israel for the sole reason of preventing any suspicions.

[PhilipCal]

Hello everyone.

I was recently browsing the CIA's official website to take a serious gander at the process and essential requirements for one's quest to attain employment with the agency.

Looking over some of the information, I found that the agency will work to ensure that you are free of any foreign allegiances.

My question:
What constitutes a foreign allegiance that can disqualify you from the running?

A little background info about myself:
I am 20 years of age, currently entering my senior year at university. I plan on going to law school right after I graduate, with the subsequent goal of entering either federal law enforcement or the intelligence community. I am fluent in Russian, I understand a lot of Polish (probably not enough to pass a rigorous exam), and I look forward to learning Arabic on my free time.

I am also Jewish. Now what does that have to do with anything -- you might ask?

I have almost no doubts that my loyalty to Israel will be questioned if I seek a very sensitive intelligence or enforcement position.

If I were asked, where do I stand on Israel and the United States? This is how I would reply.

I must be honest, I love both countries. My family immigrated here from the Soviet Union (I was born here) and our love for America is beyond words. It took us in, as it has many other immigrant families from all over the world. When you travel outside of the major cities you begin to realize just how wonderful America is - the people, the land... the country.

I believe that the vast majority of Americans, the hardworking and honest people living in the country, deserve to be protected at almost any cost. America just like any country has criminals and those that are not necessarily deserving of protection, but when you see some of these great folks in America making an honest living, who welcome you into their homes and neighborhoods... you begin to grow a special admiration for this country.

In regards to Israel, it's the home of my religion.. my nation. It protects Jews all over the world. It has many enemies and is quite vulnerable to destruction. It is the ally of my country, America. Both countries have a special relationship, but I would understand the intelligence community's distrust of my loyalty.

How would I go about proving my loyalty to America? I can honestly say, even though it can't easily be proven, that I would never share intelligence with Israel - professionalism is very important to me. On the other hand, I wouldn't spy on Israel - and there lies the dilemma. I also wouldn't spy on the United States. It is like choosing between a mother and a father. I want all the lovely people of the United States to have a safe home for their children, but I also want the same for Israel. Blacks, Muslims, Jews, Christians... we Americans were all attacked on 9/11.

Although I'm sure both countries agree to refrain from spying on one another in a deceitful manner, the unofficial truth might be far different.

I'd much rather work for American intelligence, seeing as how this is my country, and Israel has its own basket to pick from. I've lived all of my life in this country, and I want to protect it from our relatively new global threats.

It scares me thinking about it.

I hope your feedback can quell some of my fears - and please no Jewish jokes. :)

Foreign Allegience means exactly that. It has nothing to do with your affinity for Israel , or your being Jewish. Where you to place Israel's interests above those of the United States, that would be one definition of a "foreign allegience". Simple love of the State of Israel is very natural, and would not, by itself, constitute a foreign allegience.

[OFFMason]

That sounds great, I was really worried about that. The thing is, wouldn't I be considered disloyal or even a traitor if I were asked by my employer, say the CIA, to collect intelligence on Israel and I refused?

I surely wouldn't collect intelligence on the United States.

[wildestkabs]

OFFMason,

Excellent post!! I had similar doubts in my mind sometime back but since I am some distance away from naturalization, I did not ask them here, because simply speaking, I did not want to put the cart in front of the horse.

Anyway, I too wanted to know what consitutes foreign allegiance. Turns out that you need to have TOP secret clearance to do jobs like these and therefore, the going can sometimes get tough, especially if you are naturalized. Background checks of agencies like the FBI and the CIA are a little different than local law enforcement in the sense that they, in addition to getting details on your background, also try and determine what kind of a security risk you pose.

So, if the parents of a naturalized citizen live overseas, or if there are some financial interests involved, that creates some problems. In your case, its a good thing that you are a born citizen. Makes things a little easier. I don't know whether you know, but there is this story on the internet about how the FBI wanted to hire a ton of Arab speaking individuals after 9/11, and turned towards Jews (around 90 of them) but ended up hiring none of them because they thought that they might be naturally inclined against another community. You can google it up.

I also had a detailed conversation with an FBI recruiter, who even told me that it would also depend on what your country of origin is. If your country of origin is one which is friendly to the US, then it generally makes it a little easier.

If most of your family is here, I'd reckon that your chances are better. Since you are only 20. I would recommend that you definitely try and get some military experience and if you do so, then try to go for some intelligence positions. If you are interested, let me know and I will tell you what positions might be related, or could give you good exposure.

It is my dream to be an FBI SA and I have already started preparing myself for my panel interview (by the way, I am not even eligible to apply but whenever I am, I am confident that I will be one of the top candidates). I already have some critical skills like an engineering degree and knowledge of a foreign language and I will be a lot better prepared in the near future.

My only concern is that by the time I apply, my length of stay in this country would not have been very long and I am worried that it might hinder me getting hired.

However, on a positive note, the FBI recruiter that I spoke with told me not to get bogged down by anything and not to worry.

He hit the nail on the head when he said that ultimately what will matter is what you bring to the table - and that is exactly what I am working on.

Here is a link which explains security clearance - http://www.clearancejobs.com/security_clearance_faq.pdf

Here is another. Check out "foreign influence" and "foreign preference". This is military but it gives you an idea. http://usmilitary.about.com/od/theorderlyroom/l/blsecmenu.htm

By the way, how do you plan to learn Arabic? I am thinking Rosetta Stone.

[wildestkabs]

wouldn't I be considered disloyal or even a traitor if I were asked by my employer, say the CIA, to collect intelligence on Israel and I refused?

Your loyalty has to be to the US. Period. If they ask you to collect intelligence on Israel, do it. No questions asked. If you think that such a situation would cause you to have ethical, legal or moral lapses, then don't join.

You cannot have divided loyalties.

[OFFMason]

wildestkabs, thanks for the response.

It really depends on the purpose of the intelligence gathering, I can not morally collect intelligence on a country that I have an interest in seeing survive and prosper. I don't see that as being something I can do. Are most Catholics fine with spying or undermining the Vatican or the Pope?

There is a story about a religious Jew in the Pentagon who was working in the tank armor department and frequently made official trips to Israel, and was eventually destroyed by people claiming he was spying for Israel. Ultimately he wasn't found guilty of anything and made the Pentagon look extremely bad. The thing is... this person was working in an extremely sensitive area, and he was religious. I mean, how does the CIA expect people to simply put on the blinders and reasonably keep out all personal ethical standards, religious connections and so forth?

Essentially... we all have our biases, whether it is our family, politics or religious enlightenment.

I mean it is easy to say that you are totally loyal to the United States and only the United States... but are you really?

I wouldn't want to join for the purpose of spying on Israel - in the general sense, I don't think that is the mission of the CIA or the federal government. I think the purpose of the CIA is to ensure that America is well protected, and all American citizens have a place to raise their kids in a safe environment. I would however change my mind if either country turned into something resembling Hitler's Germany, but let's be reasonable... that isn't reasonable. I would definitely not feel comfortable spying on Israel. I would never feel comfortable spying on the United States.

I was reading something about a special unit within the DoD that was monitoring Israeli intelligence, unit management elected to ban all Jewish personnel from joining that particular unit. That is something I agree with, I would be fine with that. It was called something like the "Jew Free Room".

[wildestkabs]

It really depends on the purpose of the intelligence gathering, I can not morally collect intelligence on a country that I have an interest in seeing survive and prosper. I don't see that as being something I can do. Are most Catholics fine with spying or undermining the Vatican or the Pope?

See, thats the thing. I totally understand your situation. Its a tough one but it must be done. Your roots can be traced to Israel but your country is the US. However, I don't want you to feel that I am trying to bash you up or something like that. I understand your position. But you must also understand that what you have mentioned borders on divided loyalty.

I was reading something about a special unit within the DoD that was monitoring Israeli intelligence, unit management elected to ban all Jewish personnel from joining that particular unit. That is something I agree with, I would be fine with that. It was called something like the "Jew Free Room".

And thats another thing. Once your Israeli background is known, most likely, you will not be assigned to anything that deals with Israel. After all, this is the land of immigrants and everyone has some connection to some country or the other.:) But thats just my guess. I am no expert on how people are assigned. I might be completely wrong. The best part however, is that Israel shares excellent relations with the US, and in my unqualified opinion, that helps.

Edit - Now wait a second. You said you were 20. Your profile says you are 27. Whats going on?

[OFFMason]

wildestkabs, weird... my whole birthday was wrong... date and month as well. Fixed - now you know I'm a libra.

I consider both to be on the same side but obviously both have a right to their privacy. I would collect intelligence for either country if offered a spot, but I would surely not spy on either country or share intelligence vital to their own specific security interests.

I'm being as honest as I can be, you can't say that for everyone... even some people that apply and get into the CIA and FBI. The other thing is, I'm an American... I've never been to Israel - it's a stranger country, with an inherent connection that I value. I look at Americans, their beautiful small communities and their easygoing ways... and I see people that I want to protect.

There are great Muslims, Christians and Jews in this vast country... and I don't want my respect and admiration for Israel to be a barrier to my aspirations.

I don't know what to do.

[wildestkabs]

I don't know what to do.

In my layman's opinion, I think you are fine. I believe that as long as you don't end up compromising on American security, it shouldn't be a problem. Hopefully, someone else will answer as well.

You did not answer my question on learning Arabic. How are you doing it? I am planning on using Rosetta Stone but am not sure at this point.

[OFFMason]

wildestkabs, oh sorry about that. It's late, so I forget things. :)

I actually think that Rosetta Stone is great software for learning Arabic, but from what I've seen so far... the application doesn't really go into depth on the topic of grammar and writing. It pretty much teaches you by showing you pictures of objects or people in various situations.

I have a book that takes a nice look at the alphabet, and grammar - which is essential for professional use.

It is called 'Ultimate Arabic' by Living Language. Maybe something better has already come out, so do your research. Also be sure to decide which Arabic you'd like to learn. There is official modern Arabic that is common all over the Arabic world, and then there is religious Arabic... and then there are the various local dialects. There is an Egyptian and Iraqi dialect.

I haven't had much time to study due to my college assignments and such, but I plan to pick it up again after I take my LSAT.

Salaam = Bye

[GoldBadge]

That sounds great, I was really worried about that. The thing is, wouldn't I be considered disloyal or even a traitor if I were asked by my employer, say the CIA, to collect intelligence on Israel and I refused?

I surely wouldn't collect intelligence on the United States.

As other posters have noted, insofar as U.S. Government employment there is absolutely nothing wrong with being a staunch supporter of Israel (especially if you're Jewish). There are many such supporters who also hold TS clearances. There are also Muslim U.S. government employees holding similar clearances.

Having a sympathy for a country or cause doesn't necessarily suggest that you would betray your own country in furtherance of that cause.

If you are asked about Israel, be honest. I'll bet you dollars to doughnuts that you'll be just fine.

BTW, I've been to Israel twice and have never been suspected of espionage. :)

[OFFMason]

GoldBadge, now those two trips to Israel were official duty on the part of the United States or for leisure?

If it was for the purpose espionage on Israel, I have no doubt that the United States had no problem with it! Just kidding.

Thank you GoldBadge for your response. Are you Jewish by the way?

[Up_On_Base]

OFFMASON

Just want to let you know every country collects intel on each other friend/foe. For example, Israel spies on the US and we do the same, it is part of the world we live in.

Here is the link from a 4 part Fox News story. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWpWc_suPWo

I understand your strong feelings towards Israel but if I was interviewing you for an intel spot I would have some suspicions. One thing I learned working for the USSS, you do as your told and they don't care about your opinion, it's all about the mission.

I would contact a recruiter if you have additional questions, good luck.

[OFFMason]

Up_On_Base, the thing is... you can't always simply do as your told. I would use an example, but I don't want to anger anyone here.

As I have said above, officially we don't spy on one another. We're friends! But in reality, everyone is spying on one another. I wouldn't unprofessionally undermine any intelligence operation against Israel... but I certainly would object to one that harms Israel without just cause.

I'm sure every agent has an opinion, and sometimes that opinion is based on a personal perspective and not necessarily professional. I don't think that makes them a target of suspicion - I think it makes them human.

Up_On_Base, why would you be suspicious? Would you be suspicious of Catholics who attended Fordham? Would you deny a position for an applicant whose father is a Jesuit?

I mean, I'm spilling my heart out here. I love this country and I wouldn't sell it out, but I'm also being honest in that a potential intelligence employer should refrain from giving me a post that may harm a country that represents my ethnicity - it creates a conflict of interest, but only in that area.

So you wouldn't hire me Up_On_Base? Even if I'm a Israel loving super agent man with powers parallel to the likes of Austin Powers?

[Up_On_Base]

Up_On_Base, why would you be suspicious? Would you be suspicious of Catholics who attended Fordham? Would you deny a position for an applicant whose father is a Jesuit?

I mean, I'm spilling my heart out here. I love this country and I wouldn't sell it out, but I'm also being honest in that a potential intelligence employer should refrain from giving me a post that may harm a country that represents my ethnicity - it creates a conflict of interest, but only in that area.

So you wouldn't hire me Up_On_Base? Even if I'm a Israel loving super agent man with powers parallel to the likes of Austin Powers?

OFFMason - It's NOT about religion, it is about doing your job and your loyalty to the US. I would be suspicious of anyone (jew/catholic/muslim) that stated he would not perform his/ her intel duties because of a loyalty to a foreign country.

I lived in Riverdale part of the Bronx (mostly jews), have many Jewish friends so don't try and play the religious card against me, I am not like that. In my opinion that conflict of interest would worry ME, maybe not the hiring agency. You asked for an opinion on a open forum and you got mine, you don't have to agree...that is what makes the US a great place.

[GoldBadge]

I wouldn't unprofessionally undermine any intelligence operation against Israel... but I certainly would object to one that harms Israel without just cause.

You can't take that attitude, because you don't know what the "just cause" may be, or what you consider "harm" may conflict with the deciding official's opinion. You'll be very low in the food chain and would need to follow lawful orders.

Israel and the U.S. are close allies and I don't see that changing in our lifetimes. But there will always be a Spy vs. Spy. Just don't you be a another Jonathan Pollard.

[OFFMason]

Up_On_Base, I didn't mean any disrespect by my comment, I guess I should have put an LOL or smiley face somewhere. I thought my Austin Powers line was evidence enough that I was joking.

I am loyal to the United States, but as I've said... you can't always just put aside your morality in this line of work. The CIA is described as a civilian agency, but I think it goes a lot further than that. Like the military, you operate against foreign armies and foreign intelligence that sometimes results in death and harm to humans - I'm sure it is a job that sometimes tests your morality and ethics. We all have our limits on how far we would go to prove our loyalty, one of my limits is hurting Israel and the United States.

What I meant by bringing religion into this is that Catholics have the Pope, the ultimate spiritual leader of Catholicism residing in a foreign state. I admit, not all Catholics follow the Pope's agenda... but what if there is a large devout group of Catholics that push his agenda without question? Does that cause a conflict of interest that you would be suspicious of? How about Jesuits - the soldiers of Christ? My point is, I would guess that even the most loyal Americans have their limits.

GoldBadge, I understand... I mean if I were to know without a doubt that an operation was being undertaken to harm Israel in some way - I would have to resign. I can not in good conscience maintain a position if such was the case. You have instances like the Liberty Bombing, and people saying that Israel had a hand in 9/11. It worries me that the American intelligence community coupled with Mossad have some shadowed hostility going on with one another. I hope you understand my uneasiness.

I appreciate your opinion! Don't hesitate to think that.

[Up_On_Base]

Just apply and see what happens, we are getting nothing accomplished by all these "what ifs".

I think you will find out as you get older and gain some additional real world experience nobody cares about your opinion; they just want the task/job performed when ordered.

Not trying to be a d*ck but that is the reality I witnessed first hand, eyes/ears open, mouth shut until you are asked for an opinion or have a few years on the job. Nobody wants to work with a knowitall new guy w/ no experience, if you don't like that type of environment maybe you should look at a different career path.

I worked with some Israeli security guys in DC, they followed the same thought process, do as told and get the mission done. I highly doubt you will hurting Israel in any way, they are our only true friend in the middle east.

[GoldBadge]

people saying that Israel had a hand in 9/11.

The only people saying that are the some Muslims and white supremacists.

Like Up on Base, I used to work for the USSS, and my experiences in both that job and in my present one, involved excellent relationships with Israeli goverment officials.

[OFFMason]

Up_On_Base, I thank you for thinking that about Israel.

I understand that you are expected to do as ordered, when ordered. But some orders are potentially unjust or illegal, as is possibly the case in the CIA's use of the Mafia in Cuba.

I totally agree! They would give two craps about my opinion. I just hope they don't overlook any potential contribution I may offer to their cause simply because I have an undeniable affinity and respect for Israel's statehood.

Even in the video Up_On_Base posted, it is suggested that Israel's activities before and during 9/11 were very questionable and have some sort of connection - even though the reporter says there is no conclusive proof that suggests Israeli agents had a part in 9/11. It still rings a little troubling.

GoldBadge, I wanted to ask you where you folks worked, but I didn't want to make you uncomfortable. Pleasure to have you guys conversing with me.

[ignignokt373]

BTW, I've been to Israel twice and have never been suspected of espionage. :)

I've been there as well (about 20 times when I was in the military) and no one has said a word to me. ;)

[OFFMason]

ignignokt373 on official business or leisure? Sheesh I would think that they would be a tad bit suspicious.

[ignignokt373]

ignignokt373 on official business or leisure? Sheesh I would think that they would be a tad bit suspicious.

Both. I was stationed in the Sinai Desert (Egypt) for 9 months and we would run up there to go drink and do missions.

I put it on my SF-86 and no one has said a word.

[OFFMason]

Amazing. I've never visited for the sole purpose of not giving off any red alarms. I always wanted to visit... very badly indeed. I still feel a bit hesitant to visit, working for the FBI has been a dream of mine... I wouldn't want to impede it in anyway.

[ignignokt373]

Amazing. I've never visited for the sole purpose of not giving off any red alarms. I always wanted to visit... very badly indeed. I still feel a bit hesitant to visit, working for the FBI has been a dream of mine... I wouldn't want to impede it in anyway.

Other than going to Libya, North Korea, Iran, etc.....I don't think they will bust your chops over it.

I have been to other countries as well and I work for the Feds and have a TS/SCI clearance.

[OFFMason]

... drool. I don't know, don't tempt me! :)

I really hope the FBI sees some value in me out of law school - hopefully I'll have a working knowledge of Arabic by then. Maybe I'll even know the law! lol

[zxcvbnm]

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[OFFMason]

Of three countries? Sheeesh... that's a tough question.

[zxcvbnm]

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