Do you pursue a stolen car?

[bit_by_k9]

Our department, 120 officers and metro of 150,000 in the upper midwest, has heated debates at briefing about pursuing stolen vehicles. Our policy basically states in order to pursue:
-A violent crime must have been committed
-The subject must be attempting to escape
-The subject will endanger lives or inflict great bodily injury if not taken into custody
(Basically Graham v. Connor)

It seems the younger officer want to pursue any and everyone.
I don't see it that way. Especially if you are in the pursuit alone. They usually flee on foot and/or fight. (I am a K9 handler so that is not a huge problem...yet)

The other issue is when someone is involved in a pursuit the civillian car usually is destroyed or loses much of it's value.

Just wondering what the concensus is out there

[Five-0fromSoCal]

Pursuits have been a hot topic here for some time. I believe we should chase anyone that runs. I've been in alot of pursuits and from my experience, there is usually another reason why they are running. A simple fail to yield usually has a strap in the car or just committed a armed robbery or drive-by. We don't know until we catch them. G-rides are stolen alot of the time to caper. They're just not joy riding. You'll get alot of different opinions here about this topic.

[david30816]

I believe we should chase anyone that runs.

Agree

[exComptonCop]

Very few things in life compare with the thrill of getting a little hi low. Consequently, few things are as dangerous, and can affect so many people in a relatively short period of time. That being said, I'm certain there aren't any agencies out there with a "will pursue" policy. Any LEO can call off their own pursuit anytime they choose.

One thing I learned about chasing G's...a stolen car today, will still be a stolen car tomorrow ;)

[deputyryan]

Pursuits have been a hot topic here for some time. I believe we should chase anyone that runs. I've been in alot of pursuits and from my experience, there is usually another reason why they are running. A simple fail to yield usually has a strap in the car or just committed a armed robbery or drive-by. We don't know until we catch them. G-rides are stolen alot of the time to caper. They're just not joy riding. You'll get alot of different opinions here about this topic.

I agree to an extent. I think we should chase if conditions permit. If its rush hour traffic, or if its clear that it is dangerous for the general public for an officer to continue the pursuit then by all means I think it should to be called off. That being said I think it is silly to call off a chase at 3am with no traffic. (Which happens to me on a regular basis it seems - 4 in the last 2 months) Basically common sense needs to be used.

Just my two cents.

[Smurfette_76]

While I understand the basic concept of someone running has probably done something wrong, my issue is that when it comes down to brass facts, it's a car. Granted, it's a stolen car, but the potential damage, injury, or death to innocent civilians is just not worth someone's car (of which will probably be damaged in the pursuit anyway). Yes, you'd send a message in your community that the local LE will track you down no matter what, but I dont necessarily feel that that's a realistic approach. In the very end...once it's all said and done, you might be the cop that has to live with the death of an innocent and quite frankly, I don't want that mental pain the rest of my life...not over someone's personal property.

[Tunkle]

While the chase will give you a woody, I came across (no pun intended) a rolling stolen the other night on a Caddy with the plates coming back to a Chevy. Well, I followed them into the hood and blacked out and sat in the dark and watched them. I know where they keep it and I know who is driving it and at about which time they feel the bravest to drive the strip. I'm coming up on a weekend tour and will have that at the top of my list. I figure if I make them feel comfortable by NOT pulling them over at first, they will make more appearances on the strip. It's an old (89) Caddy so there isn't that much value left in it. I could give a crap about the car, but the prize is a driver behind bars. They looked young and could probaby out-run my old butt, but like the old timer said to the rookie...."Instead of running down there and skrewing one of them cows, why don't we just WALK down there and skrew them all??"

Sometimes patience pays off, like someone else said "It will still be stolen tomorrow".

[So Fla Cop]

Is it your car?

[Battleax]

I believe we should be able to chase, and those that run in a vehicle and endanger others should be hammered. On the other hand, the guy I see with a tag light out that I try to stop and he doesn't cause he's revoked, he runs and hits a kid on a bike, or an old lady going to church...not worth it to me.
Again, stolen today will be stolen tomorrow. I also believe in Officer discretion, 2-3 in the morning, no one around, go get em. But our agency is very restrictive in chasing.

[Outshined]

Not a stolen car, but here is one that we started a little bit ago. My officer called it off after I told him to, but look at the results.
http://www.news10now.com/story.asp?ArID=107048

[kcr]

One thing I learned about chasing G's...a stolen car today, will still be a stolen car tomorrow ;)

If you don't catch it today.

Or find it unoccupied tomorrow. In which case you probably have a new stolen in the neighborhood.

[PFL]

We can't chase sht!

Though getting into a chase is a load of fun, you really have to use your head and determine if the "what ifs" are worth catching the guy. I HATE letting people get away, but it's better than me getting hurt.

[exComptonCop]

If you don't catch it today.

Or find it unoccupied tomorrow. In which case you probably have a new stolen in the neighborhood.

Thought provoking indeed...may I quote you ;)

[Smurfette_76]

While the chase will give you a woody


seriously? Ok. Maybe Freud was right...

[Redders]

If conditions permit we run'em to the ground.

[18C3V]

Wait until you've been sued a couple of times and see how your pursuit policy changes.

[scratched13]

When we stop pursuing, they will know about it. When they know about it, they commit more crime. When more crime happens, the police get swamped. When we get swamped, then crime REALLY takes off. Our department is behind the power curve just because of this police. Until we, as a society, decide to defeat crime, it will be the end of us.

[Retired Chief]

Should you pursue a stolen car? Let's see, last I recall car theft, or even being in possession of a stolen car was a felony. If you have to pursue, that means he's fleeing, right? What no-load, pencil-necked, political pancake lawyer told you not to pursue a fleeing felon? Or are you one of those "there's always another day" cops, who say that to hide the fact they are either lazy or afraid? Chases are dangerous and can be expensive, but a fleeing felon is a fleeing felon!

[PFL]

Should you pursue a stolen car? Let's see, last I recall car theft, or even being in possession of a stolen car was a felony. If you have to pursue, that means he's fleeing, right? What no-load, pencil-necked, political pancake lawyer told you not to pursue a fleeing felon? Or are you one of those "there's always another day" cops, who say that to hide the fact they are either lazy or afraid? Chases are dangerous and can be expensive, but a fleeing felon is a fleeing felon!

Clearly you weren't a chief, or at least anytime in the past two decades.

A stolen car is hardly a felony. It's a property crime. Property crimes are not worth getting hurt over. It makes little difference if the guy is running due to a broken tail light or he's in a stolen car, they are both treated the same way- with a boss breaking it off. That's part of the reason it's stupid to even bother.

If the bad guys knew that we break off just about everything at the town line, and that we can;t pursue for motor vehicle violations, stolen cars, etc, it'd make things a little harder for us.

[kcr]

A stolen car is hardly a felony. It's a property crime. Property crimes are not worth getting hurt over.

I didn't know crimes against persons were the only felonies back east.

I don't think that logic would fly around here.

"Hey Sarge, I'm not going to respond to this in progress burglary. It's just a property crime and I don't want to take the chance that I get hurt."

I don't want to get hurt over anything but if sometimes being in harms way wasn't part of the job description I wouldn't need my gun or my vest. Or my baton, oc, taser ... I think you get my point.

[Smurfette_76]

Crimes against persons aren't the only felonies, but consider this...y'all are saying that all felonies should be chased no matter what (least that's how I"m reading it) and I'm sorry, I don't understand that. WHO is going to explain to the family of the soccer mom in the mini-van full of children that was hit and killed because you were chasing a suspect that stole a car. It's JUST a car. Be it my car, your car, or someone else's car...it's only a car. It's not worth a life.

[JSD73]

As I've said before, everyone just talks about this being a stolen car, however no one takes into account what may have already occurred with this stolen vehicle. Maybe the occupants have just knocked off a store and the clerk is lying in a pool of his own blood. Maybe they just grabbed a kid off the corner sidewalk in said vehicle, but hey, it's only a stolen car right? If we let them go, then the victims tend to suffer as well...and then we may never truly know who took their life. There are many variables to this situation but if we as police just back off of every stolen car then what other crimes might be committed with that car that we now back off from?

Last I checked, Unauthorized Use in my state is a felony and running in a vehicle is also a felony. While not every chase has a larger meaning behind it, if you show the criminal you won't take chase, then you as a police department have no command authority left with the public or criminals.

[Smurfette_76]

You can whatif it to death in order to articulate chasing it. I've never said that every stolen car chase should be ended and wouldn't say that...I also would never say such a blanketed statement that "all" felonies should be chased. Example: Possession of any amount of cocaine is a felony in this state...you think I'm chasing someone that I just saw make a crack sale? Absolutely not. Human life is worth more than that.

I was once told something that I try to keep in mind in all aspects of my life: Just because you can, doesn't always mean that you should.

[Blazin413]

I think the current state of mind of a lot of the agencies around the country not to pursue is lame.

It basically gives the criminals carte blanche to run just because we turn our lights on and know that unless we caught them in the act of something haneous that we will not pursue.

I think day by day we're having our powers to enforce the law taken away from us.

The stance that "what if innocent people are hurt?" doesn't fly with me. That's the price of doing business. If they damage, hurt or kill an innocent in the line, that's just another charge. Felony Murder anyone?

It should be up to the individual officer or supervisors to pursue or not. It should not be policy

[Smurfette_76]

I
The stance that "what if innocent people are hurt?" doesn't fly with me. That's the price of doing business. If they damage, hurt or kill an innocent in the line, that's just another charge. Felony Murder anyone?



For one second, think about this. Your wife and kids are killed in a collision because a cop was chasing a felon. The felony was embezzlement. Still worth it? How do you put a value on the lives of innocent people. Felon flees and kills himself...hey, his stupid mistake....kills an innocent and you can honestly say "that's the price of doing business." That's the thing about this business that WE are suppose to understand and the citizens can't seem to comprehend...you can't sit here behind your computer and make a blanket statement that ALL of anything should occur. You can't say what you should and shouldn't do until you find yourself 10-18, blood pumping, heat of the moment, make the decision NOW. Because I'll be honest with you...the attitude of chase every single thing simply because it's a felony worries me.

[Blazin413]

I've thought about that for more than a second. It seems that somebody always brings up that point. I still stand by my previous statement.

I'd be ****ed as hell at the suspect for putting my family in that situation, but it's no difference if the person is DUI or reckless, or just plain stupid without being chased. It's a dangerous world out there.

[So Fla Cop]

I think we should only chase "plaintiff's" lawyers just for having a scumbag job. Then if a fatal crash occurs and the scumbag lawyer dies, it is only a property damage incident. Ah, in a perfect world. Otherwise....who cares. It has nothing to do with "we will catch them another day", and everything to do with not letting a POS, useless, scumbag, leech, savage, bottom feeder take everything you own, including your freedom (jury pool lacks clorine). The above statement also includes the criminal. The public doesn't give a damn about the po-po doing their job. You are a just a meal ticket for lawyers and criminals. I know that perspective sucks, but it is a fact of life in this liberal society.

[Five-0fromSoCal]

For one second, think about this. Your wife and kids are killed in a collision because a cop was chasing a felon. The felony was embezzlement. Still worth it? How do you put a value on the lives of innocent people. Felon flees and kills himself...hey, his stupid mistake....kills an innocent and you can honestly say "that's the price of doing business." That's the thing about this business that WE are suppose to understand and the citizens can't seem to comprehend...you can't sit here behind your computer and make a blanket statement that ALL of anything should occur. You can't say what you should and shouldn't do until you find yourself 10-18, blood pumping, heat of the moment, make the decision NOW. Because I'll be honest with you...the attitude of chase every single thing simply because it's a felony worries me.


Like you said, we can " what if " all day. "What if " the car we stopped chasing has someone you love in the trunk of the car. Still worth stopping your pursuit? People will always monday morning quarter back.

[Smurfette_76]

That's was my point, that you missed somewhere in all that...I oppose making a blanketed statement about "all" everything...it's flat dangerous.

edited to add: that sounded sarcastic and I didn't mean it that way.

[mdrdep]

My personal opinion is we should not have blanket policies of what we can and can not chase. When somebody runs we don't know what we have. The policies should be somewhat open allowing the cop(s) involved rate the risk and have the options. When a Sgt gets close enough to evaluate than he should have a say so also, hopefully providing a cooler head to evaluate everything going on. The W/C should have an overall say especially listening to the officer on the radio and determining if he sounds in control of his faculties (We've all heard the officer that sounds like he's way out there on the radio).

My Dept. of course dosen't agree with me. We can only chase known felonies, dangerous dui's, and armed (brandishing a gun) suspects. There is also the caveat that a pursuit of a known stolen vehicle will be terminated after a reasonably short period of time (figure that one out; Most Lt.'s I know consider that to be as long as it takes them to go from their office to dispatch and say "10-22"). Suspected stolen vehicles can't be chased at all......

[scratched13]

Crimes against persons aren't the only felonies, but consider this...y'all are saying that all felonies should be chased no matter what (least that's how I"m reading it) and I'm sorry, I don't understand that. WHO is going to explain to the family of the soccer mom in the mini-van full of children that was hit and killed because you were chasing a suspect that stole a car. It's JUST a car. Be it my car, your car, or someone else's car...it's only a car. It's not worth a life.

Someone has to do that hard job. You might not be up to it, so just step aside for the tough ones.

If someone has to explain to someone that their whatever died in a car wreck due to a chase, then they should fully explain that THE POS THAT WAS FLEEING WILL BE PROSECTUTED. Yes, a car is just a car.......until it is your car, then it means something.

I know that we all talk this "every life is valuable" talk. 10 million dollars won't bring them back and all that. But the TRUTH is that there is a point at which property IS more valuable than life. If we all voted for it, would we give up ALL of our cars for public transportation to save the life of ONE person? Nope. And you would be a liar if you denied it. So take that to the next logical step. There is a point where too many cars will be stolen to protect that "one life." By then, it will be too late.

Stolen cars don't matter to anyone who hasn't had their car stolen (unless they are absolutely rich or can afford great insurance).

[scratched13]

For one second, think about this. Your wife and kids are killed in a collision because a cop was chasing a felon. The felony was embezzlement. Still worth it? How do you put a value on the lives of innocent people. Felon flees and kills himself...hey, his stupid mistake....kills an innocent and you can honestly say "that's the price of doing business." That's the thing about this business that WE are suppose to understand and the citizens can't seem to comprehend...you can't sit here behind your computer and make a blanket statement that ALL of anything should occur. You can't say what you should and shouldn't do until you find yourself 10-18, blood pumping, heat of the moment, make the decision NOW. Because I'll be honest with you...the attitude of chase every single thing simply because it's a felony worries me.

To me, this argument goes hand in hand with the 2nd Amendment. So many libs are willing to trade this right for a little bit of safety. And in the end, less safety is guarenteed because people can't defend themselves.

With pusuits, so many are willing to trade away the police's ability to apprehend bad guys for a little bit a safety. And in the end, less safety is guaranteed because everyone gets a little idea in their head that they can run.

[Smurfette_76]

You know what Scratched, I enjoy an debate as well as the next and it appears that this one is quite fine until you want to start insinuations and personal attacks. I don't appreciate it and you best rethink the suggestion you just made that I can't handle this job and/or that I'm not tough enough for it. I don't do your job, you damn sure don't do mine...but no where in this have I made the suggestion that you can't HANDLE it, just because our opinions differ. Now. If you'd like to continue this debate, then have some respect for me because even if you don't LIKE what I"m saying, we're still on the same team, we have the same goal, and I flat deserve the respect for doing the SAME thing you do every damn day.

[SMPPD87]

someones car is not worth my life. that's what insurance is for.

[Depco164]

Our department essentially has a No Pursuit Policy which burns my butt... However, the latest supreme court ruling should put the administrations fear of litigation at a bit more ease.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/LAW/04/30/scotus.chase/index.html

Nice to see the supreme court has discovered it's sense or decency again... let's hope this is a trend toward pro police policies from them.

While I think I think anyone who runs from us should be pursued and brought to justice I can not help but see administrations fear of loosing their shirts in litigation.

A stolen car is a stolen car. The person driving it likely knows its stolen and, if they are running probably is also running for other reasons as well.

I say chase for as long as the wheels are on the vehicle.

[scratched13]

You know what Scratched, I enjoy an debate as well as the next and it appears that this one is quite fine until you want to start insinuations and personal attacks. I don't appreciate it and you best rethink the suggestion you just made that I can't handle this job and/or that I'm not tough enough for it. I don't do your job, you damn sure don't do mine...but no where in this have I made the suggestion that you can't HANDLE it, just because our opinions differ. Now. If you'd like to continue this debate, then have some respect for me because even if you don't LIKE what I"m saying, we're still on the same team, we have the same goal, and I flat deserve the respect for doing the SAME thing you do every damn day.

Oh, sorry that this was a "serious" debate and since it is such, YOU desrve RESPECT (by the way, think back to the fannypack thread and think about that word "respect" again:rolleyes: .) Oh, yeah, right ..... THIS is a serious debate, so that one doesn't count for respect.

I never stated you couldn't handle the job. I said IF you can't handle the tough stuff, then let someone who can. As police officers, we have the unfortunate task of telling good people bad things. We must not loose sight of the fact that BG's are the reason that pursuits occur. When we stop chasing BECAUSE BG's run, then pretty soon EVERYONE runs. We have seen it in my city.

[scratched13]

someones car is not worth my life. that's what insurance is for.

Sure. Okay. Would you be willing to give up all of your personal vehicles and only use public transportation for the rest of your life to "save the life" of some possible person on the other side of the states?

[exComptonCop]

To me, this argument goes hand in hand with the 2nd Amendment.

It's been turned into an "argument" because as usual, you're trying to cram/shove your opinions down other's throats. Be thankful your agency backs your decision to chase(or not to) and let others do their job as they were trained to do.

[PFL]

I'm with Smurfette on this one. You can't make a blanket statement about this topic because there are too many what ifs, but sometimes chasing over a non-violent crime, felony or not, is not worth the risk.

To clarify, receiving stolen property with regard to a vehicle IS a felony. Though classified as a felony in and of itself, there is a difference when the car is classified as a "Felony vehicle." A felony vehicle usually has been used to commit a violent crime, and THOSE are the ones that you chase with abandon. Chasing some 13 y/o joyrider is a far cry from chasing some stick up boys or carjacker.

[patroldog]

Unfortunately, there is no correct answer here, chase, don't chase, too many factors in each scenario to determine whether to continue. One thing is for sure, most people will run if they know or feel the law will not attempt to apprehend them, and thats wrong, law enforcement today is so hampered with walking on eggs to please joe citizen that the criminals fly by the system without even giving one second of thought as to what may happen to them if they are caught. They don't care and will put others lives in danger regardless
bottom line, make every effort to catch the criminal and do not make public statements that your dept has a "no pursuit policy". Stay Safe

[Redders]

Frankly this debate is useless until someone somewhere with the needed power, gives us the ability either through technology or brute force to end pursuits immediately.

End'em anyway you want PIT'em, run'em till they break, fire EMP sticky grenades from your roof mounted grenade laucher whatever, but until the leash is removed pursuits will remain dangerous and should not have a blanket policy as Smuffer stated.

It's fluid people just because you have one pursuit at 3am doesn't mean you would do the same pursuit at 3pm.

[rpd1794]

We have a fairly liberal pursuit policy, but as with many things, we can be our own worst enemy when not using common sense (i.e. demanding our half price meal when the new waitress doesn't recognize our "status"....etc.).

Pursuits fall into the same catagory. The last one I terminated was a stolen Hyundai, about five years old, piloted by a 15 or 16 year old. This genius decided that since he couldn't out run me, he would out crazy me. He shut the headlights out and ran through a major intersection at 80 mph against a red light. Call me a p###y if you like, but a piece of crap car that will be ditched at some point is not worth continuing a pursuit like that.

The term "felony" as it applies to auto theft is semantics...ask yourself the likely outcome in court if you were to apprehend the suspect, especially if it is a juvenile. Is that worth killing someone who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time? I don't think so. And while I'm sure to get flamed for it, if you think it is worth it, I don't want you working next to me.

[10-97UPD]

My dept policy as far as persuits only allows a persuit of violent felony suspects. I have to admit that I was a little upset when I discovered this. BUT.....After going code 3 to calls on a busy city streets and almost wrecking a few times due to people not paying attention...I disagree with chasing a stolen vehilce under such circumstances. Besides...it will probably end up that you risked your life and everyone around to catch the POS and they get off on some sort of an attempted misdemeanor plea..or it is a rock rental and the owner doesnt want to press charges. Lately it seems some stolen cars are not really stolen cars.

[mdrdep]

The only way this will be solved is to recognize every officer has to use his discretion and shouldn't be second guessed. Of course that won't happen. The other things that should help 1. If you flee from the police and cause somebody to die, capitol offense. As far as I'm concerned that's premeditated. 2. Exempt the agencies from lawsuits, put the blame on the runner, tell the attorneys they can sue to their hearts content just against the runner........

[scratched13]

It's been turned into an "argument" because as usual, you're trying to cram/shove your opinions down other's throats. Be thankful your agency backs your decision to chase(or not to) and let others do their job as they were trained to do.

Don't read or reply to anything that I type if you don't like it. Write and read your own book if you don't want to hear a contrary position. Do your job how you want to ----- I can't influence you to do it any other way.

I have opinions - we all have them. I disagree and I disagree loudly. If we all had the same opinions this would be a lame board.

So there.

[Bearcat357]

A stolen car is hardly a felony.

Not sure about where you're from....but in Missouri, stealing a vehicle is a felony.....

[exComptonCop]

I have opinions - we all have them. I disagree and I disagree loudly. If we all had the same opinions this would be a lame board.

So there.

I know you are, but what am I? :)

Correct, well all have our opinions, and there's nothing wrong with that. However, there's a huge difference between debating your position and attacking the LE ability of others when they don't see things your way. We are all highly opinionated individuals, otherwise we wouldn't have entered into LE, and would not be on this forum. That being said, a Chihuahua barks loud and sounds fierce, but in the end, it is still a Chihuahua ;)

Be safe out there

[SMPPD87]

Sure. Okay. Would you be willing to give up all of your personal vehicles and only use public transportation for the rest of your life to "save the life" of some possible person on the other side of the states?

what is that supposed to mean?

[scratched13]

I know you are, but what am I? :)

Correct, well all have our opinions, and there's nothing wrong with that. However, there's a huge difference between debating your position and attacking the LE ability of others when they don't see things your way. We are all highly opinionated individuals, otherwise we wouldn't have entered into LE, and would not be on this forum. That being said, a Chihuahua barks loud and sounds fierce, but in the end, it is still a Chihuahua ;)

Be safe out there

And a German Shepard has a loud bark and a nasty bite as well. You just don't know the difference beacause this is only an internet forum.:cool:

[scratched13]

what is that supposed to mean?

My point is that people keep refering to cars as "just a car." Yes, it is "only a car" until it is your car, then it IS a big deal ...... don't be ridiculous and try to say anything different.

Oh, not everyone has full coverage. And if you do lose your car, I think that your ins premiums will go up a bit if you make a claim. But you would be cool wit that because noone got hurt.:rolleyes:

[SMPPD87]

My point is that people keep refering to cars as "just a car." Yes, it is "only a car" until it is your car, then it IS a big deal ...... don't be ridiculous and try to say anything different.

Oh, not everyone has full coverage. And if you do lose your car, I think that your ins premiums will go up a bit if you make a claim. But you would be cool wit that because noone got hurt.:rolleyes:

are you serious? i've had a car stolen before and i did not have full coverage. i would rather eat the price of my car any day than hear that a fellow officer was seriously injured or killed pursuing "just a car". call me crazy if i'm not all gung ho about risking my life over property crimes :rolleyes:

[rpd1794]

My point is that people keep refering to cars as "just a car." Yes, it is "only a car" until it is your car, then it IS a big deal ...... don't be ridiculous and try to say anything different.

Oh, not everyone has full coverage. And if you do lose your car, I think that your ins premiums will go up a bit if you make a claim. But you would be cool wit that because noone got hurt.:rolleyes:


Uh, OK, so you're saying that it is preferable to run them down at all costs, which usually results in a totaled stolen car, then to let it go and be dumped somewhere intact? If you are really concerned about the victim's losses, you should be on board with what everyone is trying to say:confused:

[beachcop05]

Crimes against persons aren't the only felonies, but consider this...y'all are saying that all felonies should be chased no matter what (least that's how I"m reading it) and I'm sorry, I don't understand that. WHO is going to explain to the family of the soccer mom in the mini-van full of children that was hit and killed because you were chasing a suspect that stole a car. It's JUST a car. Be it my car, your car, or someone else's car...it's only a car. It's not worth a life.

I think we should pursue in all instances...it is our job, what we get paid to do, catch the bad guys. (or last time I checked anyways) They always run for a reason.

And if a mini-van full of children gets hit by the suspect during the pursuit...that's horrible, but that's not our fault. I don't know why people blame the police for this, it's not our fault, we're not the one's running and crashing into things.

I think society has come a long way from holding criminal's responsible for their actions, to now holding the police at fault for doing their jobs.

[scratched13]

Uh, OK, so you're saying that it is preferable to run them down at all costs, which usually results in a totaled stolen car, then to let it go and be dumped somewhere intact? If you are really concerned about the victim's losses, you should be on board with what everyone is trying to say:confused:

Well, sure that MAY end up in a wrecked car. Violator's choice, not mine. But, you let that POS car thief go, do you really think that they will have a change of heart????????????? No, they will be EMBOLDENED to steal more. That means even more stole vehicle victims. Oh, and I have NEVER said at all costs. Pursue stolen cars, but if it gets too risky DURING that chase, then by all means, break it off. But to just have a blanket "don't pursue" policy CREATES MORE CRIME.

[scratched13]

I think we should pursue in all instances...it is our job, what we get paid to do, catch the bad guys. (or last time I checked anyways) They always run for a reason.

And if a mini-van full of children gets hit by the suspect during the pursuit...that's horrible, but that's not our fault. I don't know why people blame the police for this, it's not our fault, we're not the one's running and crashing into things.

I think society has come a long way from holding criminal's responsible for their actions, to now holding the police at fault for doing their jobs.

Because for so long we have been told by liberals, judges and lawyers that the fault lies with those with the deepest pockets.

[scratched13]

are you serious? i've had a car stolen before and i did not have full coverage. i would rather eat the price of my car any day than hear that a fellow officer was seriously injured or killed pursuing "just a car". call me crazy if i'm not all gung ho about risking my life over property crimes :rolleyes:

FINE! You eat the cost. You are a very giving person. Can I have 20 grand from you when my car gets stolen? Of better yet, just tell me where you live so I can "borrow" your car if I need it.

IF another officer gets hurt, well ............ that is a price that a police officer sometimes pays for being a police officer.:mad: That type of thinking is the same thinking that SOME soldiers' families have when there is a training accident or even some war related deaths. SOLDIERS SIGN UP TO BE SOLDIERS. POLICE OFFICERS SIGN UP TO BE POLICE OFFICERS.

[rpd1794]

Well, sure that MAY end up in a wrecked car. Violator's choice, not mine. But, you let that POS car thief go, do you really think that they will have a change of heart????????????? No, they will be EMBOLDENED to steal more. That means even more stole vehicle victims. Oh, and I have NEVER said at all costs. Pursue stolen cars, but if it gets too risky DURING that chase, then by all means, break it off. But to just have a blanket "don't pursue" policy CREATES MORE CRIME.

I think you're missing the point that alot of us are trying to make. I'm not sure how long you have on the job, but I have been involved in pursuits that ended very badly for someone who did nothing more than be in the wrong place at the wrong time. And for nothing more than a suspended O.L. Was it my fault that the moron ran? No. But he didn't start driving like an idiot until an officer got behind him and lit him up.

This all goes back to the whole issue of balancing the need versus the risk. Alot of us are chasing everything that runs regardless of how out of control things get, which goes against our primary function of protecting the public. If I'm chasing a homicide suspect, rapist, or armed robber, it's on...until I can knock him off the road. But the chase can be justfied because the need to catch the a-hole outweighs the risk. A stolen car does not.

Stop for a second and think about how rightous you would feel if you buried the nose of your patrol car into the side of that mini van full of kids at 70 miles per hour and it turns out the car you were chasing was being driven by someone with a suspended O.L. or a misdemeanor warrant.

I'm not for restricting our ability to pursue, but we have to police ourselves. We haven't been real successful at doing that, which is why they are being restricted for us.

This past Wedensday, we had to cut the body of a 57 year old woman out of what was left of her Toyota mini-van after some a-hole trying to duck a county officer hit her in the drivers door at about 60 mph.

I'm sure the Husband and 13 year old that were left behind in the wake of this may have some issues with your stance on this subject. And like it or not, those are the people you swore to serve and protect when you took your oath.

I'm not trying to be over dramatic here, but you really need to think about the consequences of your decisions out here on the street.

[david30816]

This whole topic brings back a saying that I was once told ... "Everything we do has an associated risk, it is up to you to determine how comfortable you are with taking that risk." Also meaning, each officer/deputy has discretion so just use common sense and do what you feel safe doing.

I'm not sure why this conversation is heating up... Just chase if you feel safe with taking that risk and if not, don't. Its the beauty in law enforcement...

[ppd101]

Most stolen cars are used to commit more serious crimes such as Bank robberies and Drive by shootings. When someone says "it was just a car" I have to respond, "well if its not worth chasing, why is it worth reporting". Most stolen cars as many have said, are not left in some neighborhood. They end up torched, stripped or totaled in a crash. If you chase a stolen vehicle and you use stop sticks or the PIT, you may get the car back with little or no damage. Yes, a stolen vehicle is a property crime. But so are Bank Robberies, burglaries, armed robberies, purse snatchings. The suspect has one thing in mind, to obtain property. But departments say chasing for these things is accecptable. And for all those who say " what would I say to someone who's family is hurt in an accident" I would say to them "I'm sorry that your family member is hurt because a suspect who committed a crime didn't want to stop for the police". It should not matter how serious the crime was, what should matter is that if you let everyone go for minor crimes, you are sending a clear message that if you don't want to stop for the police, just floor it. We, as officers, are not the ones putting peoples lives in danger and we need to stop taking responsiblity if someone is hurt. If we are at fault, then so be it. but when a suspect who is fleeing from police hurts someone, he, not the police was at fault. There are times not to chase. such as if the suspect is known and the crime is minor (i.e Speeding, suspended, warrants). We need to use our heads. But to say that stolen cars are not worth chasing is wrong. Someone who works hard, pays his taxes, should not be told that his property that he paid for is not worth our effort because its just property. As for lawsuits, I have not seen a lawsuit won when the police were following policy and was not the cause of the accident. The cases when police lost is when they drove reckless and without due regard to public safety. Anyone can file a lawsuit, but to win them will be a different matter.

[scratched13]

To me, this whole debate boils down to how liberals have changed the players uniforms mid game. We all (most) have seemed to have kept playing without even knowing it happened.

BG's are the guilty parties.
Cops are the ones doing their jobs by policing.
Bg's should be charged and sued.
Police should be held accountable for gross negligence ...... not for doing their job.

[Depco164]

BG's are the guilty parties.
Cops are the ones doing their jobs by policing.
Bg's should be charged and sued.
Police should be held accountable for gross negligence ...... not for doing their job.

Here, Here. I could not agree with this more. It's time judges and lawyers remember this.

[rpd1794]

Folks, I'll say this and then disassemble my soapbox...for this thread anyway...;)

I'm seeing alot of postings about who is to "blame" when things go sideways in a pursuit. I don't think anyone would disagree that the one who runs is at fault...that's not the point.

The point is that to the extent that we have control, we need to exercise some common sense. 99.9 % of our stolens are taken by juveniles, and usually dumped within 24 hours. When they are apprehended, they get virtually no punishment no matter how many priors they have. All I'm saying is that to me, it's not worth killing anyone over, and I don't understand why any of you would think it is. :confused:

I used to feel the same way. But I got older, saw several pursuits go bad, and had children. This is one of those things you can't look at in black and white.

I would encourage anyone who is interested in this topic to go to:

www.policedriving.com

This site has proved invaluable to me as an EVOC instructor and has alot of information from all sides about the dangers of pursuits.

Everyone stay safe.

[t150vsuptpr]

Which is why it is so important to have police officers who are in posession of sound judgement. Each must be able to make the decision of when to chase and when to cut it off and to be constantly re-evaluating the decision considering changing events. Traffic, weather, road conditions, population, locality, knowledge of who perps are, the abilities of the vehicle, the abilities of the officer himself, his stae of mind and level of alertness, and I'm sure a few other things I haven't mentioned all have a direct influence when one evaluates the decision to continue or cut it ... and it'll change in a few seconds.

If an officer is chasing a simple stolen car at 115 in a buisness / residential area on a 4 lane undevided roadway with a 35 or 45 mph speed limit and his neighbor's 16 year old daughter pulls out from a side street at first sight of a green light and he t-bones her and kills her, he's going to second guess himself for the rest of his days, regardless of any findings by others or any courts.

Devestating. :(

[LeanG]

As much as every police instinct tells me that I should chase a stolen car....It's no longer worth it. With knowledge and job experience, I've learned that there is a high probability that the stolen car will be recovered, and the violator doesn't do real time. Besides, its no longer fun driving at 100mph down a residential street at 2am when the violator doesn't want to stop for ANY red lights or stop signs.

I don't know about half of you guys that have so much faith in your driving that you don't think that some innocent civilian may step in front of your car. And for what? A piece of metal? On the interstates, I'm all in. But through the city streets, a stolen car with no other offenses? Count me out.

[PhilipCal]

If I was tasked with drafting the "perfect pusuit policy" I'd fail. I think a good ,as in reasonable policy falls somewhere between the extremes of Don't chase anything, and Chase everything that moves. If you say to me, there are gutless, no load, police chiefs, sheriffs, mayors, etc. I'm going to agree.If you say that attorneys, liberals, bleeding hearts, etc are largely responsible for unrealistic pursuit policies, I'm going to agree again. In past discussions, I have quoted the pursuit policy of the Agency from which I am retired. The Alabama Department of Public Safety's Pursuit Policy isn't perfect. I suggest though, that it's reasonable. It requires good judgement on the part of the pursuing Trooper, as well as his/her supervisor. Both have "non-negotiable" authority to call off a pursuit. In making this judgement, considerations of road, weather, traffic conditions, speed, offense/violation, etc, are considered. The essential question of whether more is to be gained by continuing the pursuit,than by terminating it is also considered. As recently as last Thursday, an Alabama Trooper was involved in a pursuit that ended in a fatal accident. The violator was killed. At the end of the day, all he had to do was stop. There is no way in which we can eliminate the inherent dangers involved in a pursuit. We can only attempt to have pursuit policies which are reasonable, provide Officers with guidelines, and the ability to exercise Officer discretion. A further obvious requirement is that of Executives, Command Staffs and politicians, having the &&^% to back their Officers.

[PFL]

Yes, a stolen vehicle is a property crime. But so are Bank Robberies, burglaries, armed robberies, purse snatchings. The suspect has one thing in mind, to obtain property.

Ummmm, robberies are VIOLENT crimes, not property crimes.

And I disagree that "most" stolen cars are used for other crimes. A small percentage perhaps, but not most. Most of the time, they're joyriders. I also disagree that "most" stolen cars wind up torched or stripped. A good number of them wind up crashed, but a very good number are also recovered while parked.

Maybe where you work it's different, but in Newark, Irvington, and East Orange, NJ, we got parkers every night, and up to a dozen bodies a week- most of them joyriders.

[scratched13]

Folks, I'll say this and then disassemble my soapbox...for this thread anyway...;)

I'm seeing alot of postings about who is to "blame" when things go sideways in a pursuit. I don't think anyone would disagree that the one who runs is at fault...that's not the point.

The point is that to the extent that we have control, we need to exercise some common sense. 99.9 % of our stolens are taken by juveniles, and usually dumped within 24 hours. When they are apprehended, they get virtually no punishment no matter how many priors they have. All I'm saying is that to me, it's not worth killing anyone over, and I don't understand why any of you would think it is. :confused:

I used to feel the same way. But I got older, saw several pursuits go bad, and had children. This is one of those things you can't look at in black and white.

I would encourage anyone who is interested in this topic to go to:

www.policedriving.com

This site has proved invaluable to me as an EVOC instructor and has alot of information from all sides about the dangers of pursuits.

Everyone stay safe.

The fact that crimes are not punished the WAY THAT THEY SHOULD is a whole other topic. But, yes, you are right - they SHOULD be punished accordingly. Unless our country decides to buckle down and do the HARD RIGHT thing, then we are doomed. Truly doomed. Build more jails. YES! Pay officers MORE. YES! Hold them accountable for POLICING AGGRESSIVELY ...... and not PUNISH them for doing their job. YES! Treat criminals with a heavy fist (judicially). YES! Otherwise, we will look at stealing cars as "no big deal" ............. (unless it is your car that is stolen).