College requirements for LEO's

[R.White]

Requiring LEO applicants to have at least Associate Degrees or two yrs of college is a big issue here in Florida right now. Many agree its worthwhile and some departments already require it. But many others believe it will hamper recruitment which is already suffering due to our nation's good economy. Some agencies that put this requirement in place (including the FL Hwy Patrol) have since recinded it due to its impact on recruitment. The FL Sheriff's Assoc. has come out against it and the FL Police Chiefs' Assoc. after first endorsing it, are now reconsidering their stand. A compromise gaining in popularity is requiring that at least an Associate Degree (or its equivilent in credit hours) be earned within the first 4 to 5 yrs of employment. What does this forum think? RW

[Niteshift]

I don't like the FDLE proposal to require the 2 yr degree. I would be more in favor of the "within 5 yrs." thing, if I thought that would work. With some depts., it's nearly impossible to get time off or scheduled to allow you to attend classes. I have worked in one of them.

I do not believe that the degree should be a requirement. I believe in education and think it should be encouraged, but it shouldn't be an entry requirement. I have long held that public safety fields should not have a college entry requirements, especially if there is no alternative (ie experience). If you have a PhD in Fire Science, but are afraid to walk into a burning building, you're fairly useless as a fire fighter. LE and EMS are no different. A degree is really no indicator of common sense, ability to handle stress or people skills. Some of the best cops I know are HS grads. Currently, I have one guy under me that has a Masters degree......is one of the worst report writers around.

Another problem with the FDLE proposal is making the Assoc. mandatory to LE but not corrections. It's tough enough to keep Corr. positions filled, a lot want to got to LE. Now, in many agencies, the CO's have pay parity......how can you defend that if they have lower requirements?

Want a different idea? Up the incentive pay for the Assoc. degree, and offer LEO's grants, scholarships, whatever, to complete the degree.

BTW, look for an e-mail or phone call from me soon, I need to talk to you about one of your officers.......no worries, it's a complimentary thing http://www.officer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

[KenM]

I definitely do not agree with the college requirement. Along with every other agency around, mine has started recruiting and focusing on college graduates. Problem is they might be "book smart" but they have no "street sense". A lot of them have to be told to come in out of the rain. I'm sure there are exceptions but so far I haven't seen any. Out of the last 6 people we have hired only one does not have a degree. It took him 3 times taking our test and going thru the background before he was accepted. He has shown (in my opinion) the greatest potential so far. Common sense, the ability to talk to people and street smarts goes a long way.

[Chopshopcop]

My dept. has a 2 yr. college requirement for hiring in place and has had for several years.

We also have a program called PST's (Police Service Technicians) that handle mainly traffic accidents and parking enforcement. Even if you have zero college, you can hire on as a PST, you will have 3 years to obtain a 2 yr. degree (this is not a career position, merely a stepping stone to commissioned officer status). You first attend the academy for 6 weeks for PST training.

The city will pay 100% of your tuition while you attend school, either night or day classes depending on your assigned shift, and reimburse you for textbooks, as long as you maintain at least a "C" average. You must attend school full-time, including all summer sessions, until you obtain at least 54 semester hours. When you get the 54 hrs., then you are eligible to go back to the academy for recruit training.

I have no beef with it, as that's how I started, with zero college, in 1987. I finished in 1989 with an associates in Police Science.

I am now a Sgt., auto theft investigator, and am going back to school under our college incentive program to complete my degree. I have class tonite as a matter of fact.

Under the incentive program, I get a 7 1/2% pay increase for obtaining my BS. Again all tuition is paid up front by the city. I have a choice of several different colleges, and attend class at our local Navy base. They provide space for most of our area colleges. It's a win-win proposition.

This is one of the few good things that the city has done, it's well worth it IMHO. I was able to get a college education that I couldn't otherwise pay for myself. And because my wife is also a LEO, she's in the same program, so between us we will have a 15% pay increase when it's over (in Sept.) and two college grads.

[R.White]

Additional info. for my original post on this subject. Also being contemplated by those favoring requiring new officers to earn an Associate Degree within 4 to 5 years after employment would be allowing college credit for attending FL CJSTC approved academies. Such credit allowance could range from 15 to 24 credit hours, which would be 25% to 33% of the credit hours needed for such a degree. Those hired prior to such a requirment would e "grandfathered" in and would not have to obtain such degrees. Does this change anyone's mind on this issue?

[Sparky]

I've really been trying to avoid posting on this topic Chief, but my spider senses are tingling. http://www.officer.com/ubb/smile.gif

I do not believe that it should be a requirement to get your foot in the door, but it should definately be required for management positions. Preferrably should include leadership/management training.

If a depertment is going to require that an officer seek a degree on thier own within a few years, they're going to have to pay that officer enough so that they won't have to work a second or third job to make ends meet. They will also have to work around that offcier's school schedule every semester.

It is in error to equate education with improved job performance in this job. Similar to the above posts, I have seen graduates who could hardy write reports, had little command of job related knowledge, and were a "management challenge" to boot. I have likewise seen HS dropouts that were extremely intelligent, wrote great reports, demonstrated excellant command of knowledge and were properly oriented highly motivated individuals.

I believe that the best compromise is to help ENABLE officers to attend school, and to then REWARD officers that do with pay increases, exam points, etc.

Sure an officer can get on and work 25 years with no college, if he wants to be a career patrolman. However, if that officer wants to make 2 or 3 k more a year, that officer will go get an Associates Degree. Back that up with making promotion more competitive by giving points or requiring a BS/BA for SGT, and MS/MA degrees for LT. Sort of a "move up or out" plan.

The big drawback on this is that many small rural agencies will not be able to take advantage of this. No tax base. I'd like to see state gov make these funds available to agencies that wish to participate.

Just my two-cents worth.

Hopefully I can get back to school myself soon. I want a MS in ancient peruvian pottery. http://www.officer.com/ubb/wink.gif Just to be a smart*ss! http://www.officer.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif

"Why didn't I get promoted? I've got a masters!!"



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-Sparky
Fiat justina.

[R.White]

Glad you took the time to submit your views Sparky. I agree with you...its definitely needed for those wishing to move up the chain of command. We've all known damn good cops who never crossed the threshold of a college. As a point of info for you young bucks, who were still in diapers 25-30 yrs ago, the Fed govt used to pay for college for officers. It was called the LEEP (maybe it was LEAP,don't remember exactly)program and administered thru the DOJ Law Enf. Assistance Admin. (LEAA) It paid for tuition & books. I participated and my BA cost me about $150 out of pocket, thanks to this program. You worked off the debt at the rate of 25% per year, so if you stayed 4 yrs, your debt was paid. Maybe they should bring it back! RW

[Traffic Dog]

I am not against requiring a new hire to have a college degree but I dont believe that should not be the only "post high school" training that should be considered.
Many larger departments accept college OR military experience OR law enforcement experience. I have known A LOT of very good no excellent ex-MP's who couldn't get a LEO position due to the college requirement. When departments are looking who people who are disciplined, can make decisions and interact with diverse groups of people military veterans are an untapped resource.
Because a person has a two year or four year degree does not give that person the confidence and savvy to deal with the community.
I have been on the street with people who have a degree and people who are military veterans. Based on my experience give me the veteran.

[JKT]

Our Department requirements are:
High School Diploma (OR equivilent)
60 hours of college OR
2 years experience (or equivilent) OR
Military
clean background, etc.

It seems to work out for us. http://www.officer.com/ubb/smile.gif

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Good luck and be safe

Jack

[This message has been edited by JKT (edited 05-04-2000).]

[R.White]

I agree, military experience should definitely be factored in. Many of the problems we're having in police admin. these days stem from the fact that MOST of our recruits today don't have any military experience. A standard question I ask when interviewing applicants is what does chain-of-command mean to them? You should hear some of the answers we get! Many haven't got a clue and many have never been told "no" or what to do or not to do in their entire lives...no concept of supervision or what its all about. OK, I'll get off my soap box now...my old fashioned ideals are showing thru again! RW

[Sparky]

WOW! That LEAP program sounds like just the ticket. With my luck, they will bring it back right after I get my degree. http://www.officer.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif

Anyone got any feedback on "distance education" or "internet education"???

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-Sparky
Fiat justina.

[JKT]

Sparky;
In Texas the Texas Commission on Law Enforcement Officer Standards and Education (TCLEOSE) has distance education via the internet for our required inservice courses. Last year I decided it would be simpler (due to lack of time) to take advantage of this. For the same amount of credit it seemed to take me twice as long and more effort (not necessarily a bad thing) than sitting in a classroom. The main reason they set it up is for areas that have no academy easily available. It seems to be a good thing for those who can study on their own. At the very least, it is an easily accessed study resource.

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Good luck and be safe

Jack

[Chopshopcop]

Originally posted by Sparky:


Anyone got any feedback on "distance education" or "internet education"???



I plan on taking a few internet courses in a few months as I get closer to the end of the program. I still need a humanities, a science, computer, speech, and a literature.
I'm shopping the net right now for acceptable courses, the rest I intend to CLEP out.

I almost took algebra over the net, I'm glad now I didn't, it's really kickin my a** confused:

After tomorrow morning though, there's only one more algebra class

[connor]

I have to take what appears to be the minority view here. I think all cops should have to have at least an associates degree. "Street sense" or "Street smarts" as many put it is only half the battle. I've seen a lot of street smart cops that are so illiterate and inarticulate that their reports look like a 1st grader wrote them. What good is making a street smart arrest if your case report is so laughable due to the misspellings, grammatical errors, and nonsensical words that the case doesn't hold up in court. I once testified with one of these illiterate cops. I hadn't read his supplement report to my main report until just before court. I was embarassed to get on the stand even though it wasn't my report. Literally ever other word was spelled wrong, almost every sentence had multiple grammatical errors, and most sentences weren't even complete ones. If it hadn't been for my report no one would have had any clue what happened in this case as you couldn't make heads nor tails of his report.
Plus, I don't know how it is in other states but in Idaho you can't be a cop until your 21. That gives you three years to get the associates degree before you can even think about police work. Therefore, its not like having to go to college is keeping you out of police work.

[KenM]

I don't know how the judicial system in Idaho works, but why were you testifying from another officer's report? In Texas it is called "hearsay evidence".

And in your post you mention grammatical and spelling errors, but yet your post includes errors.

Not to belittle you, just to point out..... "educated" people make mistakes too.

[connor]

Ken,
I do sometimes make mistakes but they are few and most happen when I don't bother to proofread for typo's etc. The point is that my mistakes will be very few and people still know what I'm trying to say. With the illiterate cops, every sentence has mistakes. And no, I didn't testify off his report but his report was supposed to be supportive of my actions. It was embarassing having to be on the stand defending my actions which were called in to question due to the childlike report that my partner wrote. His report was supposed to help demonstrate why I used force at a certain time. Instead, it made things worse because the lawyers practically laughed him off the stand due to the fact he writes like a child. Thus, I had to justify my actions based on my report alone. His was so poor that it hurt our case and thus I was embarrassed. Just like other cops are embarrassed when they see overweight cops with slopply uniforms. This kind of thing brings disgrace and embarrassment to all cops.

[Roman]

In California, any officer with 5 years experience or whom has taken a 'prop 105' class (basically an hour long video given in most academies nowdays) is certified to testify to another officer's report.... it was basically done to avoid courtroom congestion when numerous officers at the same crime scene had to be subpoena'ed to testify to the exact same 2 sentences in their supplemental reports.... I'm suprised other states haven't caught on yet!

[KenM]

Roman, I had a question on that prop 105 class.

Every person has a right to face his accuser and to cross-examine witnesses at trial. If another officer can testify to your report, how is the defendant to cross-examine? I'm no lawyer, but that doesn't seem quite right to me. If the judge allows such testimony I don't see that there would be a way to rebut it or even to discount it.

Texas does allow a similar act but both the prosecution and defense have to stipulate that the report is accurate and complete before the judge will allow it.

Connor,
Your report SHOULD be able to stand alone and as long as you follow your depts guidelines for use of force you had nothing to worry about. You can't worry about what other people do and you shouldn't have to defend another officer's report on the stand. If your prosecutor hung you out to dry and let the defense attorney grill you over some other officer's report, you have a problem with your prosecuting attorney's office. They are there to protect you (or at least they are supposed to be).

And give the general public more credit. They may see the fat slob in the uniform and think of doughnuts automatically. Or they may see you writing a ticket and think "doesn't he have anything better to do" or "why isn't he out catching REAL crooks". But deep down the people that really matter, the taxpaying, God-fearing, working man, knows you are out there doing what is necessary. And they know our profession as well as every other profession has their !*$%-ups and their misfits.

I'll stop rambling now. Thanks for listening.

[This message has been edited by KenM (edited 05-07-2000).]

[Roman]

Ken,

Prop 115, not 105 (sorry, I made a typo)....

anyway, specifically it allows the admission of hearsay evidence by trained/experienced officers in preliminary hearings for the purpose of establishing probable cause.

[David]

Conner, in your situation with the 'not up to snuff' bad speller...
Do you think the extra 2 yr degree will help? I may have misunderstood the direction your insert was heading, but this should have been hit upon a lot earlier than you and round #1 in a court case.
I was training a rookie, only a few days out of the academy, and on the first report handed to me, I saw red flags all over it. Same as you reported; bad grammar, misused words and a lot them mispelled to boot.
After talking to him, while on patrol, I discovered he had taken his reports home, in Academy, and he and his wife worked on the paperwork together. I contacted the instructors and raised hell about this infraction.
I gave every point possible to him in evaluation and tried to help in his weak areas (anything to do with english) but to no avail. I could not pass him at the end of his probation period. This period was doubled by me to get that much more exposure to our reports.
I hated to let him go, just about as much as he hated to be let go.
The shortcoming displayed, by your partner, should have been picked up sooner is the point I'm trying to make...training section not doing their part?

On another remark:
I was an M.P. and tried to jump from military to civilian LEO but it took almost 2 years to go back behind a badge. Being a shift supervisor(E5), did not help my ego either.

Last, but not least:
College; Give me a HS grad with a dose of common sense and he'll get my vote anytime. The lower educated folks usually can't help that situation and I'm not about to penalize anyone for this. If it is only true for 1 out of 10 it's to large of a discrimination for me to swallow. If the time and scedule allows for the schooling later...go for it!
Most departments do not have access to that type of funding, you guys, have been discussing. If the respective State jumps in to help, don't anyone hold your breath, then to be promoted would be a great incentive for futhering one's education.
Making a entrance requirement of a 2yr degree is not fair, in my opinion. http://www.officer.com/ubb/frown.gif

[Niteshift]

I can see connors point......Sure, your report SHOULD stand on it's own, but if the other officer makes incomplete, incorrect or poorly worded statements, it helps open the door to the defense to create reasonable doubt.

Case in point: Suppression hearing on a search warrant. 5 of us testify to the same damn thing and one guy damn near loses it for us with little, stupid stuff. He was 2 vacant lots away, not the 2 blocks away he testified to. He'd just listened to 5 guys testify as to who read the search warrant, but do you think he could get it right? Want to guess whose testimony the defendants liar, I mean lawyer, formed his argument around?

As far as the officer testifying for another thing; neat idea, but I doubt we'll see it. The best we've been able to get is that they can't call you in for a depo if all you did was notarize the report.

Oh chief, you're not the only one who has noticed the decline of military experience. I had a disagreement the other day with a deputy over following orders. He told me that he always questions orders. It was obvious that he'd never been in the military.

[Roman]

Sounds perhaps like a problem with the academy. I did not serve in the military and entered the academy as a young buck out of graduate school, and believe me, in 6 months they set me straight http://www.officer.com/ubb/smile.gif I am fortunate to have attended an excellent academy and know that there are some very half-*** community college academies where recruits wear jeans and t-shirts and chew bubble gum in class. I think the length of the academy is plenty of time to instill discipline, respect, and a healthy understanding of paramilitary structure. I've worked with some guys a little too fresh out of the corps, and quite frankly they scared me... but I've also worked with the whiny brats, so I know what you guys are talking about. I would really like to see academies get a little tougher and more regimented.

On the college issue, I've given this a lot of thought.... I am obviously a little biased, being well educated myself, but I recognize that a well rounded agency needs all different kinds of folks. For instance, I have no interest in doing SWAT and if I was being held hostage, I certainly wouldn't want a bunch of guys like myself coming to save me! I'd rather see a bunch of buffed out former-marines with years of tactical experience and no idea how to write a coherent sentence http://www.officer.com/ubb/smile.gif Flip side of that, there are certain assignments, particularly in a larger agency, that require great intellectual apptitude... ie, crime analysis/intelligence, fraud investigations, etc... obviously, these are extreme examples, but the point is that a diversity of personnel is important.

Some guys cannot imagine spending 30 years driving a patrol car around and others never want to get off the street and behind a desk.... I met an SFPD guy years ago who drove the paddy wagon. Day in and day out he drove around and picked up people that other officers had arrested and carted them off to jail.... he never took any hot calls or saw any action, never had to write a report... spent most of his days parked in a park and he couldn't have been happier... it payed well and had great benefits and retirement... I hate to say it, but its as important to have guys like that as it is the highly motivated college grad who wants to make sergeant in 3 years or the gung ho former Marine who wants to get in 8 foot chases a night and drag guys off to jail....

[Chopshopcop]

There's nothing wrong with wanting the gung-ho former Marine that gets in 8 foot chases a nite (*that was me once, Marine and all), but we must also have the guy that can write in complete sentences. Even the Marines stress education and literacy.

I'm a firm believer in officer survival. I was in a gunfight early in my career and survived. I've been to street survival seminars, kept up with all the latest techniques, and worked out. However, no one pays the least amount of attention to officer survival in the courtroom.

It is in there that we can have the greatest damage inflicted on us, and some of it is our own fault. How many times have we bitched and moaned about about the public schools and how they're not teaching our kids? Well, our kids are now getting jobs as cops and they can't spell, they have no concept of sentence construction or grammar. How many times have you sat in a courtroom and winced as a partner has tried to testify from a poorly written report? We've all squirmed and been embarrassed on the stand for one reason or another.

As an investigator, I am constantly calling the arresting officers at home,asking "What are you saying here?" because I can't read their writing or they're writing fragments instead of sentences.

My point is that courtroom survival relies on the skills that can only be obtained in the classroom, not on the street. If the bad guy walks because of a poorly written report/arrest ticket, what has been accomplished? A damn lawyer can do a helluva lot more damage to a cop than some street punk, just wait till you've been sued. You can lose your house, your savings, your job, you can go to prison. A solid education can lessen that possibility. As a juror, who are you more likely to believe, the cop that has an education as opposed to one without? Will you come across as a knuckle-dragging violence prone brute, or a professional law enforcement officer that can clearly, unhesitatingly and articulately explain why your level of force was necessary to overcome his level of resistance?

Todays cops need the classroom skills provided by a college education as well as the skills that can only come from the streets.

[Patrick]

I know some departments in my state require a college degree, I think that is a load of ****. I happen to know some fine police officers, and they don't have a degree. I myself can't afford to get mine yet, and so that will limit my choices for departments. I feel this rule is making for some good police officers to miss the advantages of others. http://www.officer.com/ubb/mad.gif
Patrick


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Stay Safe!
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[Chopshopcop]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not slamming officers w/o a degree, I too know that some of the best and productive officers don't have one.

I also know how the cop mind operates. Left to their own devices, they are not gonna go to college, unless there's more money involved or at least a promotion. Even if they hired on with a promise to get it later, most wouldn't do it unless absolutely forced to.

I've always tried to put it in this perspective....Think of it as a form of officer survival training. A few writing-intensive courses at the college level will certainly sharpen those report-writing skills, and it will result in better cases.

To be honest, I hate school, it sucks, especially algebra (which I just finished BTW), but I hate being made to look like an illiterate fool on the stand even worse.

[POINTERCOP]

/I've always tried to put it in this perspective....Think of it as a form of officer survival training. A few writing-intensive courses at the college level will certainly sharpen those report-writing skills, and it will result in better cases.
[/B][/QUOTE]

I entered full time law enforcement some 30 years ago as a college senior. In Arkansas, being a 4 year grad is still yet an oddity in LE. As a result, I get a lot of things handed to me to take care of...for the administration, and for the FOP lodge (I am the trustee). Among my "chores" was "selling" the city fathers on supporting our plebicite for Civil Service (we won by 81%). Then I wrote a set of suggested R & R's for CS for our city. The FOP established a committee which I chaired which eventually wrote a set of R & R's and submitted them to the Chief to approve/change and send to the Council. I had written in "points" for education, military experience, other LE experience, and other civilian employment for the department. The guys raised holy hell. Those that had no military or college showed their butts. All of it was tossed. I did get a small college requirement tossed in...3 hours of Freshman English to test for Corporal and 3 more to test for Sergeant. My reasoning was to improve the quality of reports which have to be approved by...you guessed it...corporals and sergeants. Also, in Arkansas, to get the Intermediate Certificate from standards or to advance beyond that...you HAVE to have 6 hours of college english. PLUS the city PAYS incentives for both certificates held AND college hours. Two of the officers of the lodge quit the FOP because of it in anger at me. Now, both have gone back and gotten the hours...one is a corporal and one JUST MADE LIEUTENANT. They STILL distrust me...the educated idiot. Oh, well.

[Jfafis]

Alot of departments on the east coast are requiring the 4 year degree. There are numerous persons out there that can do the job, without a 4 year degree. However, with LE being so competitive now, it is just another attribute that recruits are delivering to the hiring table. Also, I think the salary demands the educational requirment. I know Police Officers that make 80 to 90 thousand dollars per year, not including overtime. Just a thought. Stay safe.

[Sparky]

Having a degree does not automatically mean that a person is literate or capable of critical thinking. Some of the worst reports and paperwork that I have ever seen were completed by an individual that had a BA in English!!!!

Likewise, NOT having a degree does not automatically mean that the individual is illetarate or incapable of complex inductive or deductive reasoning and applying complex legal principals to dynamic and developing felony case investigations.

High IQ doesn't actually make you smart, and a street degree with a focus in common sense won't always help.

Administrators and agencies should encourage continuing education both in traditional venues as well as in peer and LE training.

I DO support some requirements for positions such as Sgt. and above.



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-Sparky
Fiat justina.

[doc26]

I AM CURRENTLY DUAL CERTIFIED IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA IN LAW ENFORCEMENT AND IN CORRECTIONS. ANYONE WHO WAS REQUIRED TO TAKE A STATE EXAM FOR CERTIFICATION CAN RECIEVE COLLEGE CREDITS WITHOUT INCURRING ANY COSTS OTHER THAN THOSE TO ATTEND THE TRAINING ACADEMY'S. I RECIEVED 41 COLLEGE CREDITS COMBINED FOR THE TWO DISCIPLINES. THE BREAKDOWN IS AS FOLLOW.
LE BASIC: 33 CREDITS
CORRECTIONS: 28 CREDITS
CORRECTIONS TO LE CROSS OVER: 13 CREDITS
LE TO CORRECTIONS CROSS OVER (RARE) 8 CREDITS

ANY QUESTIONS PLEASE DON'T HESITATE TO CONTACT ME.

BE SAFE. AND WEAR YOUR VESTS.

[Niteshift]

Which school did you do it with doc? I went through Brevard CC, which gives 33 credits for basic LE, but the CC's closest to me each give only 18 or less.

[Don]

Hey Doc

WHY ARE YOU SHOUTING? http://www.officer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

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Stay safe out there,
6P1 (retired)

[doc26]

Originally posted by Niteshift:
Which school did you do it with doc? I went through Brevard CC, which gives 33 credits for basic LE, but the CC's closest to me each give only 18 or less.

hey niteshift what dept. are you with or what part of fl. i went to hills. cc for corrections and st. pete jc for leo. st. pete gave me a total of 41 for both. any more questions email me for a quicker response. doc26@earthlink.net stay safe.

[Link]

Hello,

I just joined this forum and would like to reply. I think that anyone who can do the job and shows a will to learn and the desire to succeed should be allowed to do so. I am a police officer in Georgia. Not many officers here have degrees but they are none the less professional or competent. After all, we all must pass the same tests in the academy. I do have a B.A. in Law Enforcement Administration which was partially paid for by a leftover from the old LEEP days spoke of earlier. Just for information there is a current government loan program that exist. It is calle the Federal Carl Perkins Loan. This special student loan allows your debt to be forgiven as if it were a grant. It is forgiven at a rate of 1/5th per year for five years if you work in any LE or Corrections job. There is a catch. In compliance with Department of Justice standards, You can not work in supervisory capacity until your five years are up.

[Sparky]

Personnaly, I would LOVE to go back to school. Would absoluely LOVE it. BUT...i am too busy working three jobs to support my family. My wife also works.

It's not a matter of being too lazy to go since it isn't required. It is a matter of the fact that buying baby food and paying the house note is more important than some piece of paper. I can't afford to pay for school and books PLUS take the time from not working a job to attend class. I also feel that I actually learn and get more experience from simply applying myself.

I don't need a college to learn. I constantly buy and study textbooks and relevant literature on my own. If I have a question, I will seek out a person of authority and experience and ask them.

I plan to go back to school when I can, but that won't be for a few years. I have debt to pay off, and a family to provide for. If I had my 'druthers', I would be making a Living Wage that would allow me to support a family without the extra jobs. This would also allow me to attend school if I chose to.

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-Sparky
Fiat justina.