Baton

[Patrick]

I just had my baton cert. I just have one question, If a suspect is being abusive to you and you escalate to the baton as a use of force, how many times do you strike them until you switch to your firearm?

Be safe out there

Pat

[KenM]

Your baton certification course should have included a block of instruction on force continuum. My interpretation of being "abusive" toward you brings to mind something of a verbal nature. If that is the case the baton is not appropriate at all. If you meant actually physically attacking you or a third person or the imminent threat of an attack, that would warrant strikes from an impact weapon (at least in my dept's use of force criteria). As far as how many times you can strike someone before going to your sidearm that would be a judgement call. One question you will have to answer is that if the threat is serious enough to use a firearm, why were you using an impact weapon in the first place? Common sense is the key. Consult your dept's G.O.'s and your use of force continuum. If your dept doesn't have one in place I would suggest the PPCT system. My dept follows it and it has been defended successfully in court and is widely used.

[Niteshift]

I second ken's advice. You need to ask your dept. I know that the one I work for has a different policy than the one that is next to us. So, you're better off asking the question "at home".

[Tackleberry]

There are many different ways to use force and depending on the situation and the factor's for using such force it's dependant on the person and or person's and then deciding what force is appropriate. What is the person's demeanor at the time? What is the size, age and build of the person? Is the person visablly under the influence of drugs or alcohol? Does the actor have a weapon? I agree with the previous posts about discussing this and following your departments gudelines in its use of force continuim. At what time does a baton quit becoming an option and lethal force does? There is no simple answer to this question, like I said certian variables must exsist before lethal force can be used, as you know in todays day and age the use of lethal force on anyone, even when justified is going to stir up the heat and you can be sure you will be raked through the coals. In this case I always reserve lethal force as a end all last resort to save my life or the lfe of another, if it did come down to this option I would have no reservations in using it, investigation, charges or not. I also believe if you used you baton and then graduated to your firearm a question would also arise of why not using OC or calling for back-up? In the use of force you do not always have to go step by step up the scale, you can escalte to whatever force is needed to stop that threat, without following the steps that are usually outlined...Prescence,verbal,hands on control,oc,baton all the way up to firearms and K-9 as is listed in our use of force model. That's why it is up to the split second decision of the officer and sadly it must also be the right one for which their is no simple answer to. My advice again is to ask your department, you should also have your department's use of force model in written form, carry it with you like I do and memorize it! You can bet if you are called on it you will have to decribe and answer on it to a jury and politcally motivated prosecutor.


Stay Safe!

Tac

[7@NGHS]

As everyone said it is a judgement call. Pulling the sidearm is your last option. When the trigger is pulled, you cannot retrieve the round so you better use good judgement. Several things you better be studying. Articulation, disparity of force, your use of force continuum and the definition of "assaultive" behavior as it pertains to the use of force.

Remember this, there is no shame in disengagement in order to wait for assistance to assure the safety of all involved.

Where I am from, 90% of the time when a baton is used, OC has already been deployed. After several correct strikes from a baton, the assailant may not be in my control but he is injured and definitely not as much a threat as when the altercation first began. Eliminating the appearance of a weapon, it does not bother me to stop the attack, create some distance and ready to escalate another level. If the assailant continues on, you have no choice, he has taken that option away but more than likely you can buy some time to await backup.

My main goal is NOT to win a physical confrontation. We are trained in the "15 second" rule of engagement. Once that short period of time passes, we create distance, make an assessment and escalate if neccessary.

I would hate to think that I had to articulate, in court, why I had shot a person who had been sprayed, whipped with a stick when all I had to do was back off a little and wait for assistance.

Hope this helps, stay safe, wear the vest and most of all, Good Luck!



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Eddie

[Niteshift]

Ditto that 7.......

There's no future in being a hero.

What do you mean they've already been sprayed before the stick comes out? You're not talking about when you GA boys use the baton to break out the tail light or head light on one of those smart-mouth yankee tourists are you? http://www.officer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

[7@NGHS]

You are not suppose to give up my secrets. Since you have I will say this.

My use of "profiling", any vehicle registered to a state north of the Mason/Dixon line that sells for more than 50K. http://www.officer.com/ubb/tongue.gif

Just kidding folks. http://www.officer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Stay safe Niteshift.

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Eddie

[Sparky]

Down here in the land o' cotton, a profile stop is the one you make on the occupants of the vehicle that is up on blocks in front of their double-wide trailer. http://www.officer.com/ubb/smile.gif

Also, I have noticed that the presence of duct tape, aluminum foil, and battery powered 'marital aids' observed while conducting search warrant activity is higher than the accepted normative average in an Amercian household. I am not sure if the relationship to criminal activity is correlative, or causitive. Quantitative data analysis is ongoing, however, and I will keep you all posted as to the outcome of my study. http://www.officer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

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-Sparky
Fiat justina.

[D. Ridley]

How many times do you strike? Well, first of all its not how many times you strike but how effective your strikes are. Once you have determined that your strikes are not effective than ask yourself, "does this person present a deadly threat?" I have been taught that I cannot use deadly force unless I am presented with a lethal threat. This can be many things. A gun, knife or even officer - suspect size difference. Anyway, there is no simple answer. Check your department's standard operating procedures. If you follow your SOP than you could get "qualified immunity" if something goes bad. Regardless, be safe before anything.

[D. Ridley]

Hey Niteshift and 7@NGHS, send me an e-mail @ 1966chevy@cableone.net. I'll put you in my address book. Since y'all are down south with me we might have something to talk about from time to time.

Be safe..!

[Blue23]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Niteshift:
{on one of those smart-mouth yankee tourists are you? }

Boy..Do you think the Braves will ever win a world series?? Guess those smart-mouth yankee ballplayers will have to put on another a** whippin.. http://www.officer.com/ubb/tongue.gif