HR 218

[Niteshift]

You know, Tack asked a good question that should have a simple answer, IMHO.

Call your rep in Congress and tell they to sign as a co-sponsor of HR 218. The bill would allow active and honorably retired police officer to carry in any state. It's a good bill. There are a pile of co-sponsors already, but they keep screwing it up by tacking on riders, like also making CCF permits good everywhere. Not that I oppose that necessarily, but that kind of stuff is holding up the bill.

[Roman]

I realize that I'm going to have my head bitten off by all of you for this one, but in the interest of getting a good debate going, I'm going to state my opposition to this...

As a police officer, I recognize that my powers and duties are extended to me 24 hours a day anywhere in my state. I regularly exercise my right to carry a concealed weapon off duty, and am even aware of some agencies which require their officers to do so. This allows me, if necessary, to take police action while off duty, but also gives me the peace of mind that I have 'personal protection'. This is a privilege not granted to very many people in my state, but I suppose the voters and legislators in my state realized that as a police officer, I am at-risk even off duty, due to the regular contact I have with violators and the potential for retaliation. It is for this reason, I suppose, that this privilege will be extended to me after I retire.

Having said this, I really don't see why 30 years from now, when I'm an old man vacationing with my grandkids on the other side of the country at Disneyworld, why I would have any more reason to carry a firearm than anybody else. I'm sure that the state of Florida has its own laws concerning firearms and its own set of standards for the training and selection of police officers, and I don't understand why a retired officer from California should have the right or the need to carry a concealed weapon there. The chance of me running into some guy I arrested 3000 miles away is slim. Maybe Florida has very stringent LEO requirements and California will give a badge to anyone who can read and write and passes a 3 day academy (I am a California LEO, I'm just making a hypothetical argument here and am well aware that we have some of the most stringent selection/training requirements in the country http://www.officer.com/ubb/smile.gif ) I don't think the voters of Florida would be very comfortable knowing that these people were allowed to carry a concealed weapon in their state.

As I posted in Tackleberry's earlier thread, I would never arrest an out of state officer for carrying in my state. But I do think that legislating this is a little bit like legislating professional courtesy for traffic violations. To the public, it makes us look like an elite old-boys club, granting perks to one another, that we do not give the general public. I respect the individual autonomy of each state in this union, and I don't think a law like this is really justified. I think this is an area where it is best to use our professional discretion rather than to publically flaunt our power. Any thoughts? (go easy on me!)

[KenM]

Boy, do I have some thoughts on that one! Not only do I support letting LEOs carry legally everywhere across the nation, I support reciprocity for all concealed carry permits. Just think how many extra police will be out there and think of the crime deterrent when every turd knows he may be facing someone who is armed--legally.
If you really think about it when you're at work you treat everyone as if they are armed until you know they aren't (at least you should be doing that). And if a citizen has gone to the trouble of obtaining a permit he's not the one you should worry about. It's the turd who isn't going to get a permit and couldn't qualify for it anyway. I'm a strong believer in that every good citizen has the right to keep and bear arms.

If you do go to Florida and get off the main tourist paths you might change your mind about that gun!!!!

[Niteshift]

I get what you're saying Roman, but I don't think you're following the total intent. It's not only to protect you from guys you arrested, nor is it designed to give you law enforcement authority/responsibility. It gives you the option, an option you may choose not to exercise when you are 70 years old, but a choice you'll still have. Some forms of the measure have retired officers still having to qualify if they wish to carry.

In short, what it does is add a bunch of trained cops to the street, regardless of the imaginary state lines. We're not talking about deputizing cops all over the country, but I'll bet if I'm standing in a 7-11 in Kansas when it gets robbed, the folks in that store would prefer I was armed.

I agree, I wouldn't arrest an out of state LEO for carrying (and it's common here in FL), but what happens if you actually use your gun? Now what? Some hot-shot States Attorney gets a shot at you. Imagine the civil suit too.......Mr. Roman, when you gunned down my client with the gun you were illegally carrying.......You get the idea.

As far as the retiree part, down here in the land of sunshine, we have hundred of cops that retire from NYPD or some other place in the frozen wasteland before age 45. They come here and go to work for a new agency. Obviously they are still able to do their thing. Remember, a lot of cops get to retire before 60. Probably by the time they're 70, they won't want to exercise their option to carry anyway. But some live in states where you're a cop one day and the day after retirement, you're not allowed to carry anymore. Their danger is just as real as it was the day before. Their particular legislators haven't seen fit to give them the right to carry. HR 218 would level the playing field.

It's not perfect and not a cure-all, but there really is no reason why it shouldn't be an option.

[Tackleberry]

Gentlemen,

In order to make this Bill a reality we all must write and phone our state's legislators and pressure them to vote for this thing to happen. It's total BS that we are allowed to serve and protect our state's and the U.S. constitution but as soon as we leave our state we are criminals, just doesn't make sense. I also support nationwide CCW'ing for law abiding citizens as well, these people are not the problem the criminals are, they don't go by the rules they make their own. Please call and write your State's Legislators as I have done and let them know your position on this and demand their support on this, also remind them you will remember their vote on this come election time in November. The responses I have gotten from legislators on this has been positive, each one has written me back at least all the way down to recieving a phone call at home from my U.S. Senator letting me know he is supporting this. Don't make any mistake about it WE have a voice in this and it is up to us to make this happen if it's going to happen.


Tac

[Niteshift]

Tack,

I made sure a couple of years ago that my congressman was a co-sponsor.

Don't get me wrong, I support citizens rights to get a CCF permit. You'll find few guys that are bigger supporters of the 2nd Amendment, but I think that national carry for non-LEO's should be down the road. Remove it from being linked to the LEO national carry. Let the cops do it first, prove it works, then talk about citizens getting it.

[DesertRat]

Roman:

If it makes you feel better, I agree with you whole heartedly from a purely academic point of view. On the other hand, since it appears you and I are a dying breed and have been overrun already, I'm sure I will take full advantage of this bill should it ever make it into law.

[Roman]

Ken, I have to state my vehement opposition to what you're saying! I think you've gotten a little caught up in your NRA 2nd Amendment literature and forgotten about the rest of our constitution! May I suggest you read the 10th amendment. Its a wonderful little paragraph, thanks to which you and I do not all work for the United States Police Department. I (and apparently 30 million other people) am glad I live in a state that doesn't hand out CCWs like library cards... and we certainly aren't going to honor those from states that do!

DesertRat, I like to think that intelligent thinking cops are an emerging breed, not a dying one http://www.officer.com/ubb/smile.gif

[DesertRat]

Roman:

It's not the cops I'm worried about. It's this society in general. It sometimes seems the majority of them don't even know we have a document called a constitution, let alone have read it. We certainly don't function by it in any realistic fashion anymore. http://www.officer.com/ubb/frown.gif

[KenM]

Come on Roman, I'm not an NRA member, nor have I ever been. I am however from the country and I grew up with guns just like everybody else around where I live. I guess when you grow up in a gun culture you have different opinions.

As far as the "U.S. Police Dept" goes I don't think that would be such a bad idea. (Hear me out) One set of laws for everybody, no jurisdiction hassles, we'd be able to transfer around the country, and on & on.

Like I said I've got my own opinions.

[DesertRat]

Originally posted by KenM:
Come on Roman, I'm not an NRA member, nor have I ever been. I am however from the country and I grew up with guns just like everybody else around where I live. I guess when you grow up in a gun culture you have different opinions.

As far as the "U.S. Police Dept" goes I don't think that would be such a bad idea. (Hear me out) One set of laws for everybody, no jurisdiction hassles, we'd be able to transfer around the country, and on & on.

Like I said I've got my own opinions.

Yes KenM, one set of laws for everybody but established by who? Remember that wonderful 55 MPH speed limit. That was real practical in the West. http://www.officer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif Not to mention, a guy who grew up in a "gun culture" would have to find a new hobby real fast because those people passing those laws for everybody just might not understand this culture you and I grew up in and would love the opportunity to eliminate it." http://www.officer.com/ubb/eek.gif

[This message has been edited by DesertRat (edited 04-07-2000).]

[This message has been edited by DesertRat (edited 04-07-2000).]

[Roman]

Originally posted by KenM:

As far as the "U.S. Police Dept" goes I don't think that would be such a bad idea. (Hear me out) One set of laws for everybody, no jurisdiction hassles, we'd be able to transfer around the country, and on & on.


Wow, does that scare anybody else? Toss the whole concept of local control out the window and create a huge federal law enforcement bureaucracy. Our founding fathers would be spinning in their graves!

[Blue23]

U.S. Police Force? Didn't we see that in "Escape from New York"? Where is Snake Pliskin when you need him! Maybe not such a bad idea, we could put tackleberry in charge of the NYC prison! That way a NJ Trooper would not arrest him for being armed along his commute route.. http://www.officer.com/ubb/tongue.gif

[KenM]

Cut me some slack! One off the cuff idea and y'all are ready to lop off my head!

I know the idea is far fetched, but some of your responses are too. The majority of laws are influenced by the Fed Govt whether you like it or not and whether or not you believe it. They're shaped by Dept of Energy standards (your speed limit ex), by Court cases, etc. When the Govt adopts a standard they can't FORCE a state to adopt that standard but they can withold funding which usually does the trick.

My post was a reference to how the abolishment of jurisdictional lines and the standardization of laws across the U.S. would aid law enforcement and the citizens, nothing more.

This is not the "X-Files" and there is no hidden govt conspiracy here.

"THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE"

Ken

[connor]

I have agree with the few others that a US police force would be better. It would make it much harder for crooks to run from the law. How many crooks are there that commit a crime in one jurisdiction but live in another. Their home jurisdiction doesn't even know there under investigation in the other. Lets take the extreme example: serial killers. SK's who roam the country, ala Ted Bundy, Henry Lee Lucas, and many others were able to get away with what they did for much longer because they of all the different places they committed their crimes. Bundy murdered a bunch in Washington and more all across the country to Florida. It was mostly due to the FBI (national police) that all these crimes were connected. Prior to that most were treated as isolated murders and no one realized there was a serial killer at work.

Unless the crime is serious enough to make NCIC many wanted people don't even show up on a warrants check because the only one jurisdiction is aware of the warrant. And then even if they do show up NCIC, a lot of times if they are far enough away they won't be extradited.

A national police force that could prosecute anywhere would solve the latter problem I mentioned. Also, information sharing would be much greater and we could catch crooks faster.

Okay, I'm done dreaming now.