O.C. Spray Studies

[7@NGHS]

It has been several years since I have seen any studies on the effectiveness and the negative effects of O.C. Spray (pepper)

I need not a discussion on how well it works as I firmly believe in its use and am a "master" level instructor certified by MACE International.

What I am looking for are statistics on less officer/assailant injuries, in-custody deaths, incidents where it was not "fully" effective, etc.

Seems like all the "hype" of its use has passed since it's effectiveness has been proven. Just looking to update my own information for my courses. I have already checked most of the "usual" sources.

Stay safe all.

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Eddie

[radar]

Originally posted by 7@NGHS:
It has been several years since I have seen any studies on the effectiveness and the negative effects of O.C. Spray (pepper)

I need not a discussion on how well it works as I firmly believe in its use and am a "master" level instructor certified by MACE International.

What I am looking for are statistics on less officer/assailant injuries, in-custody deaths, incidents where it was not "fully" effective, etc.

Seems like all the "hype" of its use has passed since it's effectiveness has been proven. Just looking to update my own information for my courses. I have already checked most of the "usual" sources.

Stay safe all.

[radar]

The new format got me and I think I sent a copy of what you already stated, sorry.
Anyhow, I lost faith in the spray when I dumped the whole can on a subject with a butcher knife who licked the spray and almost cut my head off so we had to shoot him. That night waiting for the SBI investigator with my spray on the table doing the report, it spit at me from about 3 feet and and I was out of commission for about 30 minutes.

[John from Maryland]

I'm working on our less lethal weapons manual and left the references at this station, but you might check with the Portland (Maine) PD. They did a fairly comprehensive study showing reduced officer injuries, reduced suspect injuries, fewer workmen's compensation claims. When OC didn't work, it tended not to work on people who had been sprayed in the past and who had a high motivation to resist/assault. Generally, if two bursts of OC did not stop an assailant, additonal OC deployment had not effect (at least in that encounter). I believe OC has been one of the most significant developments in officer survival in recent years. If Portland can't help you out, contact me and I'll try to get you a copy. Be safe.

[D. Ridley]

My department uses Freeze+P which is a combination of CS+OC. It is rated at about 2 million Scovile Heat Units. I have seen and/or used it several times with great effect (especially when I got sprayed!) Our department had one incident where it did not work. The suspect was high on a combination of drugs and alcohol. I have to agree with the previous reply about suspects who are hell bent on resisting. Like other methods of control, officers have to have a "plan b" ready for action. In our case we had to resort to good-ole physical force. Be safe!

[Jag]

Not very accurate I know, but I heard that OC is effective on 80% of people 80% of the time. Approximatley.

[Pagan]

An interesting thing happened a few days ago. Disclaimer: This is second hand knowledge, but even if this is entirely false, it's a likely scenerio.

One of our officers was working near Customs agents at the airport, and they had to use their spray. Customs also used theirs. We have a cone type spray, and Customs uses the stream. We've had training where we get sprayed, Customs apperently watches a video and gets their can.

It turned into a nightmare. Different kinds of spray flying around, different agencies with different training and equipment.

Several of the Federal agents were out of commission for a few days.

This might be something to look at in the future.

Pagan

[John from Maryland]

Out of commission for several DAYS because of an OC deployment?? We spray recruits with the stuff. You recover from exposure in forty-five minutes or so. We'll all been lit up by the stuff. I'm not one to flame someone on the Internet, but I have to say....uh, anyone catch the "Homicide" rerun on CourtTV tonight? Stay safe and keep the wind at your back (unless you want several days off for OC exposure).

[D. Ridley]

I have to agree with John on this one. Everyone in my department has to get sprayed before being allowed to carry our CS/OC spray (Freeze+P). The longest anyone took to recover was about 40 minutes and recovery was complete. I do agree that two agencies with different training could have a snafu like that. Be safe!

[This message has been edited by D. Ridley (edited 04-03-2000).]

[7@NGHS]

I have been exposed to it 15 times...11 during training and 3 by my partners... and 1 by myself. LOL

My last decon time was 7 minutes, using water and a fan. If those officers were affected longer than an hour, it was a worker's comp issue. Probably waiting for the "sunburn" effect to leave their faces. http://www.officer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

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Eddie

[Tackleberry]

OC spray from Fox Labs I believe is the strongest one out there 5.3 million SHU!!! It feels like gas being poured on your face and a fire being lit! I am not affliated in any way with Fox Labs I just use their products and am very happy with them. You can get their products by calling 1-800-FOX-LABS or I believe their Website @ www.foxlabs.net (http://www.foxlabs.net) Good Luck!

Stay Safe!

Tac

[This message has been edited by Tackleberry (edited 03-29-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Tackleberry (edited 03-29-2000).]

[BP309]

My department issues Freeze +P and we are required to be sprayed before we can carry it. I've used it many times with the good results and only once without the desired effects and that was on an adult male who was only drunk, it only made him madder.

Be Safe - Wear The Vest

Billy

[Jim]

When they first issued us our OC, we had to go back to the academy for a day to get trained in it. They had plans to spray us, but our union stepped in and made it voluntary. Needless to say, no one volunteered to get sprayed.

Anways, the instructor tells this great story;
A prisoner refuses to come out of his cell. When they send guards to pull him out, this loonie smears feces all over himself and starts throwing it all over the place, including at the guards. The guards start spraying him with their newly issued OC spray. They completely douse him, but he won't go down. Finally, one of them goes and gets the tazer gun. This is where the story takes a comical turn - the OC spray was alcohol based. When they hit him with the tazer he burst into flames!
I'm not sure if it's a true story, but the instructor assured us that the bad guy's survivors got a big settlment out of it. Now they make sure the OC is in a non-flammable base.

[John from Maryland]

While I can't speak to the accuracy of your instructor's story, I do know that NYPD had a similiar incident some years ago. A juvenile EDP was barricaded in a closet. ESU deployed pepperspray. The stream-type OC saturated the EDP's clothes without affecting him. Eventually the door was forced and a Taser deployed. There was a flash fire, but surprisingly the EDP was not as badly burned as one would expect. The OC manufacturer then claimed NYPD had falsified the story in an effort to end the contract with his company.
I know I speak for everyone in my hope that Hilliary Clinton will somehow get to the bottom of this matter and garner additional votes at the expense of the officers of NYPD.
Stay safe.

[7@NGHS]

Our local PD had an incident in January where a violent offender, armed with a knife, was sprayed as she sttod by a gas stove that had an eye burning. The OC used contained isopropol alcohol as a carrier. The overspray ignited causing 2nd degree burns to her face and ears. They have since changed manufacturers.

We use the MACE 10% foam for use in closed quarters and the Cap-stun cone for outside. (The latter is what the PD used to use) I have never used it where I did not get a "desirable" affect on the subjects demeanor. http://www.officer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

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Eddie

[ltret]

I don"t know if there are any reliable studies concerning this but during my last 5 years on the job I was issued O.C. and it performed adequately except for two occasions, both times the suspect was under the influence of PCP and simply went about their business until subdued by other methods.

[Niteshift]

Several days from being sprayed? Can anyone say "Milking it?" http://www.officer.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif

I've got you beat 7, I've exposed myself twice due to stupidity. The last one was with Freeze +P. It has an open top and I wear it up front. I was sitting down and bent over to tie my shoe. My nylon pouch did not keep me from spraying myself. Bought myself a can of Def-Tec spray the next day off and gave the Freeze +P to a rookie (but not the one riding with me).

I've seen the stuff work and I've seen it fail miserably. The last use I saw was on a woman that had already taken 3-4 hits with less lethals and the spray. She gave up more because she was tired than because of the spray.

Let me ask you this one 7, since I've heard answers both ways. Do you teach guys to shake the can first, if they have time, or is this something we do and don't really need to?

[7@NGHS]

Niteshift,

The 3 companys I have trained with say that just the normal shaking of carrying on the belt is adequate. One does reccommend that the cannister be shaken at the beginning of the shift.

Although I have gotten out of the habit, most people tend to shake the can before use.

I will give one piece of advice, especially for those carrying the foam and the higher concentrate, the monthly testing of one second bursts, or ASAP after use, should be followed by placing the nozzle under hot water and cleaned with a pipe cleaner and soap. The higher concentrates, the 10% foam being the worst, will clog and dry rendering it inoperable.

I was told this in each instructor's class but was rudely reminded of it during a time when I desparately needed it to work.

Stay safe, wear the vest and stay upwind. http://www.officer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

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Eddie