off duty carry

[ppd101]

Well it finally happened. An off duty officer helped stop a shooting rampage. Now for all of you officers who critisize officers who carry off duty, What are your opinions now. Its only smart to carry while off duty.

[deputy x 2]

Well it finally happened. An off duty officer helped stop a shooting rampage. Now for all of you officers who critisize officers who carry off duty, What are your opinions now. Its only smart to carry while off duty.

WOW! I detect a little snippyness in your statement.

I believe the decision to carry off duty is a personal choice. Whatever the reason to carry or not carry, neither should be criticized.

Your statement "Its only smart to carry while off duty", should read something to the effect of: Smart has no bearing whether you carry or not. BEING smart while carrying off duty is the key, and in this situation, the Ogden officer did an excellent job.




ps. I carry an off duty

[Shaver]

I agree, he was smart while carrying off duty. This could have ended differently also, then would you be saying it was smart to carry off duty. Although I usually carry off duty, I respect those that choose not to and whatever reason they have.

[JSD73]

Hmm, never heard an officer criticize another for NOT carrying off duty.

[exComptonCop]

Well it finally happened. An off duty officer helped stop a shooting rampage. Now for all of you officers who critisize officers who carry off duty, What are your opinions now. Its only smart to carry while off duty.

Please provide a link to one of these alleged threads, where LEO's criticized other LEO's for carrying of duty

[tacleberry]

"if You Are A Warrior Legally Authorized To Carry A Weapon And You Step Outside Without A Weapon, Then You Become A Sheep, Pretending That The Bad Man Will Not Come Today. No One Can Be On 24/7 For A Lifetime. Everyone Needs Down Time. But If You Are Authorized To Carry A Weapon, And You Step Outside Without It, Just Take A Deep Breath And Say This To Youself...'baaa'"

***lt. Col. Dave Grossman***

[Bighead]

"if You Are A Warrior Legally Authorized To Carry A Weapon And You Step Outside Without A Weapon, Then You Become A Sheep, Pretending That The Bad Man Will Not Come Today. No One Can Be On 24/7 For A Lifetime. Everyone Needs Down Time. But If You Are Authorized To Carry A Weapon, And You Step Outside Without It, Just Take A Deep Breath And Say This To Youself...'baaa'"

***lt. Col. Dave Grossman***


For those of you who don't know who Lt Col. Dave Grossman is, go to http://www.killology.com

I highly encourage everyone here to read On Killing and On Combat.

[nebraska_deputy]

I think he was talking about a post about a month or two ago. If I remember right someone said something about carrying off duty at a football game, shopping mall, and or other public places. That was one of them post I read, but stayed away from.

For the most part I carry off duty thats just because the county I work for I can be called out at any time. There are some places I just don't want to carry because I just want to be left alone when I'm off duty; school (College Classes), church, family functions, Chucky Cheese, etc. Even if I'm not carrying on my persons I'm normally not too far away from my weapon. But thats just me, every officers different and or may have a policy that says they have to carry.

[ppd101]

My comment wasn't so much about things that were said in this forum. My comment was for the officer's I have spoken personally. Officers who say it's stupid to carry off duty because it's " I don't want to worry about where my gun is". " I don't see why an officer carries his gun, Its better to be a witness". I don't fault officers either for not carring. Its there choice, but for an officer to reply that an off duty officer is only inviting trouble, that is where I have a difference of opinion. And I have seen threads in this forum where officer's have made comments about why they wont carry off duty. I'm not going to chase them down, but they were made. And I'm sure that there are officer reading this, who will now remain silent due to recent events who have said just those very type of comments

[DPD]

The shooting in Utah is unfortunately another reason to carry off duty. Good job by off duty officer.

_____________________

Is there one G or two G’s in staggered ? You better use two G’s, he was pretty drunk.

[spso]

I had many thoughts about why I don't carry off duty, but after seeing and hearing about what happened in Utah,that changed.

[Rogerthump]

As stated, I also feel that it should be by choice. The only flak I have received verbally is by family members who think I only want to be "macho" by carring off duty.

That being said, I always carry my off duty sidearm with my badge fixed to the holster. Easy to do because I wear a lot of button up shirts. If exposed or drawn, my badge can be clearly seen for my brothers in uniform.

I hope to God I would never be forced into the situation mentioned, but we as a group should be prepared to save the lives of others on or off duty when called. The officer involved should be commended for his actions and this incident should shed light on why the LEOSA is important. Also important to mention is that this was a trained officer and not an avarage joe or safety trained CCW civi.

[EARKDEP]

"if You Are A Warrior Legally Authorized To Carry A Weapon And You Step Outside Without A Weapon, Then You Become A Sheep, Pretending That The Bad Man Will Not Come Today. No One Can Be On 24/7 For A Lifetime. Everyone Needs Down Time. But If You Are Authorized To Carry A Weapon, And You Step Outside Without It, Just Take A Deep Breath And Say This To Youself...'baaa'"

***lt. Col. Dave Grossman***


Agreed 100%!

[detsarg]

Hmm, never heard an officer criticize another for NOT carrying off duty.

At my agency we qualify every quarter and must qualify with our off duty/back up weapon(s) at least once a year.

Every time we go to the range, those who do not bring an off duty weapon to qualify with are criticized by several members of the training unit. As LEOs we are afforded the ability to carry while off duty; our training officers, and many others, don’t understand why an officer would not take advantage of that ability.

While they don’t put it quite as eloquently as Colonel Grossman , the point is the same.

[1oldsarge]

I still carry even after retirement, as I'd hate for something to happen to my family when I was able to prevent something, but couldn't due to lack of equipment.

[SAPD_Rob]

At my agency we qualify every quarter and must qualify with our off duty/back up weapon(s) at least once a year.

Every time we go to the range, those who do not bring an off duty weapon to qualify with are criticized by several members of the training unit. As LEOs we are afforded the ability to carry while off duty; our training officers, and many others, don’t understand why an officer would not take advantage of that ability.

While they don’t put it quite as eloquently as Colonel Grossman , the point is the same.
Maybe those officers who don't qualify with a backup actually carry their duty weapon off duty.

[shooter1201]

For those officers that DON'T carry when off-duty, I pose a question: Does the world automatically become a safer place when you're off-duty?

FWIW, MANY departments REQUIRE their officers to be ARMED when off-duty.

I also find it 'just as easy' to carry a full-sized G22 off-duty as I do a SIG P230. Proper belt and holster combo is the key.

[SgtCHP]

Well it finally happened. An off duty officer helped stop a shooting rampage. Now for all of you officers who critisize officers who carry off duty, What are your opinions now. Its only smart to carry while off duty.


This is not the first incident of an off-duty officer being involved in a shootout. There are a number of incidents on record in CA. Some of them ended with the officer being killed and the bad guy escaping.

Off-duty carry is a matter of personal choice in most states now. In fact, many agencies are backing away from making off-duty CCW mandatory. Too much civil liability and workman's compensation if things go awry.

My suggestion is to carry good liability and false arrest insurance if you do choose to CCW. Most associations, the FOP and PALs have that type of insurance available at a nominal cost.

Being a good witness and providing ample suspect information is certainly degraded when an officer dies.

[detsarg]

Maybe those officers who don't qualify with a backup actually carry their duty weapon off duty.

I wish that were true SAPD, but the reality is that most do not. Probably because of the size of our on duty weapons, full size Glock 21.

I suppose it can be carried as an off duty weapon but DANM, thats a big gun to conceal.

[KenW.]

My agency policy requires me to have an authorized sidearm "readily" available at all times. Just how "ready" depends on you activity, eg, swimming, running, etc.

[WC145]

Being a good witness and providing ample suspect information is certainly degraded when an officer dies.

An excellent point. I carry all of the time and will continue to do so.

With regards to the original post on this thread, I've also been wondering what happened to all the people that speak against off-duty carry, they haven't been posting in these mall shooting threads. Have they all changed their minds?

As far not believing that there are people on this forum that criticize those that carry off duty, not only the fact that they do but their motives for doing so, should look up a thread I posted about a month ago regarding carrying at a Patriots game. It's just one example and there are plenty more out there. I'd post a link but I don't know how, sorry.

[EARKDEP]

Yeah, if something like that had happened at the Patriot's game, everyone there would have been "sitting ducks", including the off-duty police officers who happened to be there, because of the stupid anti-gun policies of the stadium management. There's no telling how many more people would have lost their lives at the mall if Officer Hammond had been forced to leave his gun in his car.

[ppd101]

This is not the first incident of an off-duty officer being involved in a shootout. There are a number of incidents on record in CA. Some of them ended with the officer being killed and the bad guy escaping.

Off-duty carry is a matter of personal choice in most states now. In fact, many agencies are backing away from making off-duty CCW mandatory. Too much civil liability and workman's compensation if things go awry.

My suggestion is to carry good liability and false arrest insurance if you do choose to CCW. Most associations, the FOP and PALs have that type of insurance available at a nominal cost.

Being a good witness and providing ample suspect information is certainly degraded when an officer dies.

And your right. But I do believe that the point of carrying off duty can become needed in events such as the Utah incident was made. I just wanted to let the ones who believe that there is no reason to carry have a little humble pie before they comment again.

[deputy x 2]

I just wanted to let the ones who believe that there is no reason to carry have a little humble pie before they comment again.

Sheeesh alright already!!

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and their own reasons re: carrying or not!

Let it go!

"Have a little humble pie before they comment again"? Sir, with all due respect, We who have chosen this line of work have already stepped up and taken the oath. To protect and serve! So your humbled opinion...is just that!

Just my humbled 2 cents

[dave263k9]

to each his own, you live in a way that lets you sleep at night. my agency does not make it mandatory to carry off duty, and most dont and truthfully a lot shouldnt, but were working on fixing that through training. if you havent read col. grossmans books, you really should. besafe all.

[Frank Booth]

I read a couple of Grossmans' books with a grain of salt....More than one grain actually. I've seen him "live" too.

There are many, many self-proclaimed "sheep dogs" out there who shouldn't be carrying anything remotely resembling a gun. I respect those who know that they have no business carrying a gun and refrain from doing so.

[bikecop136]

like the ole saying goes "Rather Be Judged By Twelve Than Carried By Six". Been in a shooting, i am glad that Officer and his family are ok. Glad to see him on the news. We dont see many positive comments these days about the positive things that we do for the public we serve ....Always negative.....

[jameswilliams67]

Boy ppd101, you sure helped prove again the very true saying, "damned if you do and damned if you don't." So much criticizing out there, even among fellow officers. They couldn't even let you make a simple point without getting all wound up.

I have to say that I very much believe that officers should carry off duty. That oath a few of you talk about doesn't say that it only applies when on the clock. If at the least of the reasons, you should think about being able to protect you and your family at all times. You can be recognized at any time as a police officer and expected to act or have to defend yourself.

You get your driver's license and own a car, are you going to carry someone to the hospital if they need emergency care? You are trained in CPR, are you just going to call 911 when your loved one goes down? A handgun is the symbolic tool of your trade. Luckily 99% of the time a police officer does not need it. But when he does, he should have it available.

I didn't want to carry my Glock either. But my back-up (a very reliable .38 revolver) worked just fine and no one ever knew I had it.

[ppd101]

Boy ppd101, you sure helped prove again the very true saying, "damned if you do and damned if you don't." So much criticizing out there, even among fellow officers. They couldn't even let you make a simple point without getting all wound up.

I have to say that I very much believe that officers should carry off duty. That oath a few of you talk about doesn't say that it only applies when on the clock. If at the least of the reasons, you should think about being able to protect you and your family at all times. You can be recognized at any time as a police officer and expected to act or have to defend yourself.

You get your driver's license and own a car, are you going to carry someone to the hospital if they need emergency care? You are trained in CPR, are you just going to call 911 when your loved one goes down? A handgun is the symbolic tool of your trade. Luckily 99% of the time a police officer does not need it. But when he does, he should have it available.

I didn't want to carry my Glock either. But my back-up (a very reliable .38 revolver) worked just fine and no one ever knew I had it.

Thanks, I just wanted officers to be aware that "wanting to be a good witness" is a good idea, but only if you live to testify.

[ppd101]

To Deputy x2

Yes, I believe that those who took the oath have stepped up. But some I believe only took the oath because someone told them they needed to raise there right hand and repeat after them. They only became police officers because they wanted to look good for their girlfriends, or for some other reason. Mayby they thought it would get them some type of respect but only if they are wearing a uniform. But for example, how many times have you heard about the comment's like " I will drive a drunk home before i will arrest them" or " I won;t chase someone on foot because I don't want to injure myself" For you see, these are comments made by officer's who have forgotten what we are being paid to do. No matter what they think about there department or what happens in the court, the citizens pay us to do our job. We don't go to Mcdonald's and see a cook only putting half the amount of fries in our value meal. Or go to a doctor just to have him say, I don't want to cure you today. We took this job knowing we could get hurt, not by just chasing someone on foot, but over a traffic stop or dog barking call. Over the years, Officer's have forgotten what is required by a police officer. So like I was trying to say about this topic, like it or not, we are cops 24 hours a day/7 days a week. If we see a violent crime, we as officer's should intervene. Not because the public thinks we should, but because we took an oath saying we would do so. But also, this is only my opinion.

[shooter1201]

Yeah, if something like that had happened at the Patriot's game, everyone there would have been "sitting ducks", including the off-duty police officers who happened to be there, because of the stupid anti-gun policies of the stadium management. There's no telling how many more people would have lost their lives at the mall if Officer Hammond had been forced to leave his gun in his car.

SOME states, Tennessee being one of them, have statutes that allow sworn LEOs to carry anywhere in the state, regardless of 'property owner desires'.

[GlockGirl]

I rarely carried off duty, didn't even consider it when I got dressed for the day. The Utah mall shooting did change that for me. Now it's a part of the outfit.

[jufam44]

Personally, I'm happy with the department issued P226 9mm on my hip while off duty. However, i can also live with a glock 26 sub-compact or perhaps a small 1911. The decision to carry, for me at least, isn't a decision of whether or not to carry, but which firearm to carry. But it's up to the individual officers, as stated in earlier posts. Just remember, you never know when you might be needed.

[deputy x 2]

To Deputy x2

We took this job knowing we could get hurt, not by just chasing someone on foot, but over a traffic stop or dog barking call. Over the years, Officer's have forgotten what is required by a police officer. So like I was trying to say about this topic, like it or not, we are cops 24 hours a day/7 days a week. If we see a violent crime, we as officer's should intervene. Not because the public thinks we should, but because we took an oath saying we would do so. But also, this is only my opinion.

I totally agree!

[KalCop]

to each his own, you live in a way that lets you sleep at night. my agency does not make it mandatory to carry off duty, and most dont and truthfully a lot shouldnt, but were working on fixing that through training. if you havent read col. grossmans books, you really should. besafe all.
If in your opinion they shouldnt be carrying off duty,they shure as hell should'nt be carrying on duty....
In my Dept,some carry,some dont,I carry,for my familys protection and mine.
if something goes down off duty ,the last resort is to use the firearm,First resort is to be a good witness..

[satpak77]

In my opinion, all law enforcement officers should carry off-duty and in public, unless a solid reason exists not to. This could be going to a Childrens Hospital to visit a relative, etc.

I am not saying you should carry your full size duty weapon, but a department approved weapon should be carried at all times when in public and off-duty.

The Utah shooting, the Luby's incident (some of the old heads remember this) in Texas, are some examples of why you should carry off-duty.

Every 10 years or so we get a "wake up call" on this topic and Utah is one of them.

[t150vsuptpr]

Well it finally happened. An off duty officer helped stop a shooting rampage. Now for all of you officers who critisize officers who carry off duty, What are your opinions now. Its only smart to carry while off duty.

I know some don't choose to carry off duty, and some others do carry off duty, and some do so when they think of it ...

... but I must admit that I missed the post where someone was critical of another's decision to carry off duty.

I realize some can't see the logic in the other's reasoning, but it remains a personal decision.

[scratch13]

I know some don't choose to carry off duty, and some others do carry off duty, and some do so when they think of it ...

... but I must admit that I missed the post where someone was critical of another's decision to carry off duty.

I realize some can't see the logic in the other's reasoning, but it remains a personal decision.

Someone has already stated it here but I will touch on it again. We all took an oath, but some of us took it more seriously and also took it to heart. I don't likr the "when off duty, only be a good witness." I think that is a crock, no matter how some may rationalize that BS thinking.

Sure, when with family, THEY are the number one responsibility. If they are not in harm, AND you are in a position to do something good, THEN YOU SHOULD DO IT! Otherwise, you aren't a police officer, you only work at a police department.

[scratch13]

I think he was talking about a post about a month or two ago. If I remember right someone said something about carrying off duty at a football game, shopping mall, and or other public places. That was one of them post I read, but stayed away from.

For the most part I carry off duty thats just because the county I work for I can be called out at any time. There are some places I just don't want to carry because I just want to be left alone when I'm off duty; school (College Classes), church, family functions, Chucky Cheese, etc. Even if I'm not carrying on my persons I'm normally not too far away from my weapon. But thats just me, every officers different and or may have a policy that says they have to carry.

But that is not YOUR decision to make, it is the BG's ..... isn't it?

[ppd101]

I know some don't choose to carry off duty, and some others do carry off duty, and some do so when they think of it ...

... but I must admit that I missed the post where someone was critical of another's decision to carry off duty.

I realize some can't see the logic in the other's reasoning, but it remains a personal decision.

Like I said earlier, it wasn't about something that was said in this forum. Its to the officer's who you work with who have made these comments. I know I'm not the only one who has heard it. I will always defend an officer who decides not to carry. Its his choice. But don't be critical of an officer who does. It has occured more than once that I will see someone that I arrested at a store or mall several cities away from were I work. To him I'm still a cop who put him in jail, took his dope, took away his child or what ever. I don't get to say to him, " I'm off duty, come by and see me at my PD". Like most of you, I have had my life threatened. What are you going to do when someone attempts to make good on their threat and your not armed.

[t150vsuptpr]

Someone has already stated it here but I will touch on it again. We all took an oath, but some of us took it more seriously and also took it to heart. I don't likr the "when off duty, only be a good witness." I think that is a crock, no matter how some may rationalize that BS thinking.

Sure, when with family, THEY are the number one responsibility. If they are not in harm, AND you are in a position to do something good, THEN YOU SHOULD DO IT! Otherwise, you aren't a police officer, you only work at a police department.

Obviously, if one is in a position to do some good and can do so, they should. Every situation is going to be slightly different, and one must carefully weigh the chances of sucess before acting. I know that if I decide to act or to just be a good witness is a decision I'll be making and re-evaluating, keeping the likelyhood for sucess and the likelyhood of getting any innocents hurt in mind.

[NorwichGrad05]

I don't know, some states have very liberal concealed weapons laws..but you're a cop..why wouldn't you carry your piece off duty? Better to have it and not ever have to be in a situation where you're like "damn, I'm getting robbed, I wish my gun wasn't at HOME right now". Unless you're going to the gym or boozing, your off-duty should be with you.

[School Cop]

My question, for those of you that hold this opinion, is this:
How do you feel about citizens standing and watching while you get your buttski handed to you? That was a topic in another thread last week and I don't recall anyone saying, "I'm glad they just stood and watched, they make great witnesses." Isn't it the same?

[scratch13]

My question, for those of you that hold this opinion, is this:
How do you feel about citizens standing and watching while you get your buttski handed to you? That was a topic in another thread last week and I don't recall anyone saying, "I'm glad they just stood and watched, they make great witnesses." Isn't it the same?

BINGO ...... you get a cigar!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh, they just sat there and WATCHED!!!!!!! ...... oh that was so horrible.

But they could at least say that they were civilians (still not good enough for me). As a cop!!!!!!!!!!! you should throw that cr*p out of the window (with the above exceptions).

[t150vsuptpr]

My question, for those of you that hold this opinion, is this:
How do you feel about citizens standing and watching while you get your buttski handed to you? That was a topic in another thread last week and I don't recall anyone saying, "I'm glad they just stood and watched, they make great witnesses." Isn't it the same?

Far too simplistic a view of other's posts I think. I seem to recall many posting previously in other threads to be a good witness when off duty and when circumstances dictate. Obviously, when there is imminent threat to innocent life, one should act if possible.

There are times to be a witness, there are times to be Superman.


:)

[tan/grn]

I made the decision to carry off duty when I was in the academy. Of course, I couldn't do that until I actually graduated. For 27yrs. I carried my backup (a small 5 shot 38) due to dept. restrictions. When I was forced to retire almost 4yrs ago for medical reasons, I bought a XD subcompact and carry that daily.

My primary purpose in carrying both when active and now retired was to protect myself and my family. As we were told in the academy; getting involved could range anywhere from making a phone call to firing one's weapon. We had to make the decision based on the circs. I only got involved 2 times: Once with a believed car burglar and when car jackers returned to my home to pick up the car they had parked there (They were armed when they did it, armed when they came to my home when only my kids were home and armed when they came to pick up the car when I was there). I detained them at gunpoint until the locals arrived.

I never understood why someone wouldn't not carry off duty, especially if they lived in the area they worked in, but I never faulted them for not doing so. I had my opinion, but kept it to myself.

Pretty much the only places I don't carry is to the gym and on my personal watercraft (it stayed in the motorhome). With all of the road rage increasing, that is reason enough to carry it.

But, bottom line, each to his own. Sorry for the long post.

[School Cop]

Far too simplistic a view of other's posts I think. I seem to recall many posting previously in other threads to be a good witness when off duty and when circumstances dictate. Obviously, when there is imminent threat to innocent life, one should act if possible.

There are times to be a witness, there are times to be Superman.


:)

Touche'. But if Superman leaves his X-Ray vision in his other cape, he might regret it.

[SheriffJailer1]

[CENTER]I had a very eye opening experience when I was walking through the local Walmart with my daughter one day. We were by the checkout area when I heard someone yell "Hey, Officer (my name)". I turned around and saw 3 inmates that had just been released from the county jail at which I work. At this time I had only been employed at the jail for two weeks. I did not worry about carrying my gun prior to this incident, but at that moment, I made the decision to carry everytime I left my home. I had never felt so vulnerable in my life. Due to this incident, I have adjusted the way I dress so that I can discreetly carry my gun everywhere I go.

[Nightshift va]

My comment wasn't so much about things that were said in this forum. My comment was for the officer's I have spoken personally. Officers who say it's stupid to carry off duty because it's " I don't want to worry about where my gun is". " I don't see why an officer carries his gun, Its better to be a witness". I don't fault officers either for not carring. Its there choice, but for an officer to reply that an off duty officer is only inviting trouble, that is where I have a difference of opinion. And I have seen threads in this forum where officer's have made comments about why they wont carry off duty. I'm not going to chase them down, but they were made. And I'm sure that there are officer reading this, who will now remain silent due to recent events who have said just those very type of comments
Ive had a incident where a thug drug dealer I arrested before along with his thug buddies approached me in the parking lot of a mall while I pushed my baby daughter in a stroller. The last time i dealt with said thug I used a PR24 on him while he fought and he thought he'd bring up where my stick was now and I advised him as I patted my fanny pack that I was armed and to talk all the trash they wanted but if they didnt walk I was playing for keeps because I was with my kid and Id see them all in a few days in the ghetto...They walked and I wrote it up later. I will never again not atleast have a J frame on me. Especially when im with family or loved ones.

[Nightshift va]

Hmm, never heard an officer criticize another for NOT carrying off duty.
Before I would agree with a cop chosing weather or not to carry off duty. After today with 33 reported dead from some nut not only do I change my opinion and think all sworn SHALL carry but we need to arm a few teachers and Hall monitors in Dorms as well!!

[WC145]

Before I would agree with a cop chosing weather or not to carry off duty. After today with 33 reported dead from some nut not only do I change my opinion and think all sworn SHALL carry but we need to arm a few teachers and Hall monitors in Dorms as well!!

I agree. I'm sure that like every other shooting there will be many calling to disarm everyone, including us, but I'd like to think this sort of act would be a call to arms instead. As has been seen before (ie: recent mall shooting) one individual with the means and the willingness to act can change everything.
I carry all of the time, everywhere I go, and will continue to do so and I hope that everyone that has the right and ability, LE and civilian alike, will also.