Firearm Prohibition under 1203.4 PC

[SOG240]

I have a cousin who is also interested in a Law Enforcement career. Unfortunately, several years ago, he was convicted of PC 487(a) and was sentenced to 3 years probation (no jail time served). It was also his first (and only) offense. He completed probation and hasn't gotten into any trouble since. Just recently, he was granted 1203.4 (dismissal/expunged of charges), but not 17b. Due to the fact that the felony conviction was not reduced to a misdemeanor before he was granted the 1203.4, he is not allowed to own, possess or have in his control, any firearm.
My question is, is there anything in the Penal Code that could grant him relief from that particular prohibition so he can become a LEO? Or could the Department that he would be applying for, somehow help him in this matter? I honestly didn't know what to tell him, so I decided to post the question/s here. Any help would greatly be appreciated. Thank you in advance!!

[hbliam]

I highly, highly doubt any department would hire him let alone help him to change his status.

[SOG240]

That's true, makes alot sense.

[Baxter]

If you have a felony in CA there is NO POSSIBLE WAY to can become a Police Officer. END OF STORY, NO EXCEPTIONS. A person with a felony cannot posses a handgun. Now, if you can think of a way to be a police officer and not have a handgun.....

[SOG240]

If you have a felony in CA there is NO POSSIBLE WAY to can become a Police Officer. END OF STORY, NO EXCEPTIONS. A person with a felony cannot posses a handgun. Now, if you can think of a way to be a police officer and not have a handgun.....

I'm quite aware that if you have a felony, you can not become a LEO. Are you familiar with PC 1203.4? If you're not, let me explain.
Relief under PC 1203.4 means that your felony conviction has been DISMISSED or EXPUNGED (with some prohibitions involved if a PC 17b is not granted beforehand). Therefore, you are no longer a felon, it's basically like a clean slate. On an application, if asked, "Have you ever been convicted of a felony or a crime", you can state NO, unless you are applying for public office, California State Lottery etc.
Although, if you are convicted again of another crime, the court can still hold the conviction that was dismissed or expunged against you as a strike.

I have heard from some COs working for the CDCR (Dept. of Corrections) that they have had several COs that were hired after being granted a 1203.4. However, I have not been able to verify this. That is why I'm asking it here.
It's also my understanding that Correctional Officers are unarmed Peace Officers.

I'm not sure if PC 12021.1, paragraph 2 could be used in this situation.

[the batman]

I'd have to agree with "Baxter" on this one. I understand that 1203.4 allows an applicant to put "no" under conviction of a felony, but the sheer nature of law enforcement backgrounds (being completely open/honest) dictates that he should answer yes. But for sake of argument, let's just say that the conviction doesn't matter, your cousin still cannot carry or possess a firearm, correct? No firearm, no career in law enforcement...I just don't see how that would be possible. As for COs, they are still sworn peace officers and have the ability to carry concealed. Tell your cousin that he can try for a CO position (I know that their backgrounds are less scrutinizing than LEOs)---what's it going to hurt? The worst they can say is no. As for a police officer, that's just not going to happen...maybe a CSO or tech or something. Good luck to him. That sucks.

[SOG240]

I'd have to agree with "Baxter" on this one. I understand that 1203.4 allows an applicant to put "no" under conviction of a felony, but the sheer nature of law enforcement backgrounds (being completely open/honest) dictates that he should answer yes. But for sake of argument, let's just say that the conviction doesn't matter, your cousin still cannot carry or possess a firearm, correct? No firearm, no career in law enforcement...I just don't see how that would be possible. As for COs, they are still sworn peace officers and have the ability to carry concealed. Tell your cousin that he can try for a CO position (I know that their backgrounds are less scrutinizing than LEOs)---what's it going to hurt? The worst they can say is no. As for a police officer, that's just not going to happen...maybe a CSO or tech or something. Good luck to him. That sucks.

My thoughts exactly and I also agree with Baxter. I highly doubt that he could become a Police Officer, just for not being able to carry a firearm. I also agree with you that he MIGHT have a better chance as a CO. I spoke with one of my friends from the CDCR, a Sgt., and he also stated that he knows a few people (from the facility he currently works at) who've had their convictions dismissed per 1203.4 and were accepted but did have to disclose their convictions on the PHS and to the BI. This is probably the only way he could have a career in LE. He may not like it, but beggars can't be choosers, right! I'll let him know this weekend. Thanks!

I almost forgot, what about DPT (Department of Parking and Traffic)? Could he get accepted as a Parking Enforcement Officer? I have never seen them carry any type of firearm. This might also be a possibility.

BTW, anyone here familiar with PC 12021.1, paragraph (2)? I searched for information on the net, but I haven't found anything and I don't have a California Penal Code book. Thanks again in advance.

[Baxter]

"Have you ever been convicted of a felony or a crime", you can state NO,
Sorry dude, thats wrong. If I am the BI, and you tell me NO, you will instantly be DQed for lying to me. Just because it was squelched, doesn't mean you can say "no" on a peace officer application.

If your applying to Wal*Mart, you can say no, but if your going for a Peace Officer position, they WILL find out the truth. You MUST disclose you full background.

It doesn't hurt to apply. But when you fill out your application, talk to the BI, and do the poly... you better tell them everything.

[Baxter]

It's also my understanding that Correctional Officers are unarmed Peace Officers.



Sorry, but wrong.

It is true that they are unarmed while in the jail, but when they do prisioner transports to court, hospital, ect.. they CAN be armed.

ALSO, if a Riot breaks out, they CAN be armed.

When they are off duty, they CAN be armed.

If you are given the job, you will be allowed to carry a firearm under the previous situations....so if you have a Felony the CO job is off limits.

[hbliam]

BTW, anyone here familiar with PC 12021.1, paragraph (2)? I searched for information on the net, but I haven't found anything and I don't have a California Penal Code book. Thanks again in advance.


http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/calaw.html

[SOG240]

Sorry dude, thats wrong. If I am the BI, and you tell me NO, you will instantly be DQed for lying to me. Just because it was squelched, doesn't mean you can say "no" on a peace officer application.

If your applying to Wal*Mart, you can say no, but if your going for a Peace Officer position, they WILL find out the truth. You MUST disclose you full background.

It doesn't hurt to apply. But when you fill out your application, talk to the BI, and do the poly... you better tell them everything.

Yes, I understand that. That is why I also stated, "unless you are applying for public office", which includes a Peace Officer position.

Sorry, but wrong.

If you are given the job, you will be allowed to carry a firearm under the previous situations....so if you have a Felony the CO job is off limits.

Then what about a job as a Parking Enforcement Officer? They definitely are not armed.

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/calaw.html
Thanks for the link!

[LeeRoy]

A dismissal per 1203.4 PC does not relieve a felony conviction for the purposes of owning or possessing a firearm under 12021 PC.

Your cousin can still make a motion to the court to reduce a 487 conviction from a felony to a misdemeanor. If a court grants that motion your cousin would not be a felon for the purposes of 12021 PC and could possess a firearm and could lawfully qualify for a California Peace Officer position.

Your cousin would probably be best served if he invested some money in hiring a respectiable criminal defense attorney to guide him through such a motion. I would think things he could do to help his case would include:

1) Ensuring all restitution was fully paid to the victim in the original 487 case. Perhaps even a little extra restitution to the victim to compensate them for their troubles would be a good idea.
2) A letter from the victim endorsing the motion to reduce.
3) Letters of recommendation from respectable members of the community.
4) Evidence of an exemplary life since the original conviction.

Having said all that I think it would be unlikely for any agency to consider hiring your cousin with only "several years" since his conviction. Any criminal conviction is a hurdle. A 487 PC that was filed and convicted as a felony tells me that it involved substantial loss or sophistication as most 487's are filed by the D.A. as a misdemeanor initially when the suspect has little or no criminal history and the loss is not extreme.

With respect to disclosing the conviction in a background even convictions that are expunged must be disclosed for peace officer and certain other applications under CA law.

Sounds like your cousin might be eligible for a custodial officer position (831/831.5 PC) but not a correctional officer (830.5 or 830.55) position.

[Baxter]

Yes, I understand that. That is why I also stated, "unless you are applying for public office", which includes a Peace Officer position.



Then what about a job as a Parking Enforcement Officer? They definitely are not armed.


Thanks for the link!

1) I thought you meant public office as in a political job? I didn't think of a cop as being in Public Office...no election?

2) Right. Parking Enforcment Officers are not armed. If you want to do that for the rest of your career...go right ahead...

[SOG240]

A dismissal per 1203.4 PC does not relieve a felony conviction for the purposes of owning or possessing a firearm under 12021 PC.

Your cousin can still make a motion to the court to reduce a 487 conviction from a felony to a misdemeanor. If a court grants that motion your cousin would not be a felon for the purposes of 12021 PC and could possess a firearm and could lawfully qualify for a California Peace Officer position.

Your cousin would probably be best served if he invested some money in hiring a respectiable criminal defense attorney to guide him through such a motion. I would think things he could do to help his case would include:

1) Ensuring all restitution was fully paid to the victim in the original 487 case. Perhaps even a little extra restitution to the victim to compensate them for their troubles would be a good idea.
2) A letter from the victim endorsing the motion to reduce.
3) Letters of recommendation from respectable members of the community.
4) Evidence of an exemplary life since the original conviction.

Having said all that I think it would be unlikely for any agency to consider hiring your cousin with only "several years" since his conviction. Any criminal conviction is a hurdle. A 487 PC that was filed and convicted as a felony tells me that it involved substantial loss or sophistication as most 487's are filed by the D.A. as a misdemeanor initially when the suspect has little or no criminal history and the loss is not extreme.

With respect to disclosing the conviction in a background even convictions that are expunged must be disclosed for peace officer and certain other applications under CA law.

Sounds like your cousin might be eligible for a custodial officer position (831/831.5 PC) but not a correctional officer (830.5 or 830.55) position.
Thank you very much for this information!
A large amount of money was involved in the crime. From the story I was told, his only involvement was giving up keys for entrance into the location where the crime was committed. He was not present during the actual crime, but because he knew about it and gave them access, he was charged as a principal. When the suspects were caught, they told LE who gave them access. I don't really know what he was thinking at the time, but he made a terrible mistake.
Anyways, I'm not familiar with what custodial officers do. What is their job description? Thanks again for the info!

[SOG240]

1) I thought you meant public office as in a political job? I didn't think of a cop as being in Public Office...no election?

2) Right. Parking Enforcment Officers are not armed. If you want to do that for the rest of your career...go right ahead...

Sorry, I should have been more detailed in my post.

He made the mistake of being involved in a crime, cousin or not....he needs to pay the price. So if that's his only choice, he shouldn't complain and just take it. It still is part of the Law Enforcement Field, I think. I don't want to sound insensitive, but I feel it's true.

[a7x]

I would advise him to find another field of work. I don't think anyone would hire him, even for a non-sworn position such as parking enforcement. During the hiring process he will be competing against people who have not been convicted of felonies. Crimes of moral turpitude (such as grand theft) are a definite no-no.

[SOG240]

I would advise him to find another field of work. I don't think anyone would hire him, even for a non-sworn position such as parking enforcement. During the hiring process he will be competing against people who have not been convicted of felonies. Crimes of moral turpitude (such as grand theft) are a definite no-no.

I agree with you and I've also told him just that, look for another field of work. He still insists in a Law Enforcement career no matter what advise I give him, though. Since we were young, that's pretty much all he ever talked about, he really had his mind set on it. He should have thought about that before he was involved in that crime.

[the batman]

A large amount of money was involved in the crime. From the story I was told, his only involvement was giving up keys for entrance into the location where the crime was committed. He was not present during the actual crime, but because he knew about it and gave them access, he was charged as a principal. When the suspects were caught, they told LE who gave them access. I don't really know what he was thinking at the time, but he made a terrible mistake.

oh. yeah, he's done with, i would guess, any level of law enforcement (even non-sworn postions). like i said before though, it doesn't hurt to try. tell him to move on while he's still young and to start thinking of other things he may want to do as a career.

[LeeRoy]

Anyways, I'm not familiar with what custodial officers do. What is their job description?

I think the custodial officer position is most often used in medium to large PD's in California that run city jails and hold prisoners for up to 96 hours before arraignment. Most cities refer to these officers as jailers and they have duties similar to correctional officers but they are dealing with arrestees in the hours and day or two after an arrest versus correctional officers who deal with inmate populations that remain in custody for a long time.

During my career I paid visits to city jailer staffed jails in Concord, Antioch, Hayward, and Oakland (since disbanded). All them had non peace officer jailers who booked in arrestees and then later transported them to the county jail.

From what I've heard of the story I think the chance of your cousin getting a 17 PC reduction are slim but you never know. A squared away defense attorney in the county where he was convicted would give a much more informed opinion.

I'm curious, what county did this happen in?

[SOG240]

the batman: Yeah, I agree! That's exactly what I'll tell him.....hopefully, he'll listen this time.

LeeRoy: Thanks again for all the information that you've provided!
It happened in San Francisco County around 1997. He applyed for the Office of Public Defender's "Clean Slate Program" last year. The Judge for the hearing only approved him for the 1203.4 PC but not the 17b PC, stating exactly what you pointed out earlier, "the crime involved dealt with a high amount of sophistication".
Just curious, can he try again for the 17b, even though he was turned down the first time?

[Scott21]

BOP is now hiring pardoned felons. Don't believe me, apply at their site. It asks "have you ever been convicted of a felony" Then it asks "if stated yes, have you been pardoned and can you provide proof". That is hillarious!

[RANDALL29]

even if BOP accept people who's felonies have been pardon this guy still cannot carry a firearm so he is still out luck.

[Scott21]

even if BOP accept people who's felonies have been pardon this guy still cannot carry a firearm so he is still out luck.



Yes you may, as long as the felony did not consist of a violent crime you'll be ok.

[Baxter]

Anyways, I'm not familiar with what custodial officers do. What is their job description? Thanks again for the info!


Sog, That is what I am. I am a Dispatcher/Jailer (custodail officer).

No only do I take the 911 calls and send the police, I also act as an intake jailer.

I take the subject's possessions, take a mug shot, and fingerprint, and put them in the cell. Also, I will pull the arrest/bench warrant for the subject, and have the officer sign it.

Our jail holds 27 inmates at one time, and we can hold someone for a max of 96 hours. After that, we transfer them to county.

We have a court house directly next to our jail...and our jail/dispatch center is built into our police station. The SO comes every day and places their inmates in our jail. When its time for court, they walk them over. Its better then driving up and walking them in.

Also, It took me a 6 month hiring process to get on. I went through the very detailed background process. I have acess to a wide amount of information, so you have to have an extreamly clean background to get in.

Also, 65 people qualified to go through the hiring process...and only 2 of us were hired.

[SOG240]

BOP is now hiring pardoned felons. Don't believe me, apply at their site. It asks "have you ever been convicted of a felony" Then it asks "if stated yes, have you been pardoned and can you provide proof". That is hillarious!
Is being pardoned the same as having your conviction dismissed under 1203.4 pc? If it is, he might have a shot at this. Thanks for the info!!

Sog, That is what I am. I am a Dispatcher/Jailer (custodail officer).

No only do I take the 911 calls and send the police, I also act as an intake jailer.

I take the subject's possessions, take a mug shot, and fingerprint, and put them in the cell. Also, I will pull the arrest/bench warrant for the subject, and have the officer sign it.

Our jail holds 27 inmates at one time, and we can hold someone for a max of 96 hours. After that, we transfer them to county.

We have a court house directly next to our jail...and our jail/dispatch center is built into our police station. The SO comes every day and places their inmates in our jail. When its time for court, they walk them over. Its better then driving up and walking them in.

Also, It took me a 6 month hiring process to get on. I went through the very detailed background process. I have acess to a wide amount of information, so you have to have an extreamly clean background to get in.

Also, 65 people qualified to go through the hiring process...and only 2 of us were hired.
O.K., I guess he might be DQ'ed then. Maybe his only choice is being a parking enforcement officer. At the moment, he works as a telephone repairman (AT&T, I believe) but he isn't satisfied with his current career. Thanks for the info Baxter!!

[Scott21]

Is being pardoned the same as having your conviction dismissed under 1203.4 pc? If it is, he might have a shot at this. Thanks for the info!!







No, a pardon is only something a governor or the US president may do. Depending if it was a state or federal offense. Being pardoned is basically a cert of rehabilitation. If you were convicted with burglary while being a juvenile it will not affect you buying or purchasing a gun.

[LeeRoy]

...The Judge for the hearing only approved him for the 1203.4 PC but not the 17b PC, stating exactly what you pointed out earlier, "the crime involved dealt with a high amount of sophistication".
Just curious, can he try again for the 17b, even though he was turned down the first time?

Yes but he ought to consult private counsel, not the public defender's office. My take is that he might have another chance a few years from now. If he goes out and just makes the motion again a year later it looks like he's judge shopping.

He ought to talk to a respected private defense attorney and get some advice on whether he has a shot at a 17b reduction. I gave a list of four things he could do to increase his chances. Perhaps counsel could suggest some other things too.

[SOG240]

No, a pardon is only something a governor or the US president may do. Depending if it was a state or federal offense. Being pardoned is basically a cert of rehabilitation. If you were convicted with burglary while being a juvenile it will not affect you buying or purchasing a gun.
O.K. I see, thanks for the information sir.

Yes but he ought to consult private counsel, not the public defender's office. My take is that he might have another chance a few years from now. If he goes out and just makes the motion again a year later it looks like he's judge shopping.

He ought to talk to a respected private defense attorney and get some advice on whether he has a shot at a 17b reduction. I gave a list of four things he could do to increase his chances. Perhaps counsel could suggest some other things too.
Thanks again LeeRoy, I appreciate it!

[Mitchell_in_CT]

An intresting article on this subject is found here:

http://www.jameseboren.com/CM/Custom/GunOwnershipByConvictedFelons.pdf

Albit written under a state of LA perspective.

If he wants to get into LE, then quite frankly, his best bet is a Gubernatorial pardon, which, as so aplty stated in the article, "...given its nature, this pardon is neither freely nor regularly bestowed."

[SOG240]

An intresting article on this subject is found here:

http://www.jameseboren.com/CM/Custom/GunOwnershipByConvictedFelons.pdf

Albit written under a state of LA perspective.

If he wants to get into LE, then quite frankly, his best bet is a Gubernatorial pardon, which, as so aplty stated in the article, "...given its nature, this pardon is neither freely nor regularly bestowed."
Actually, if his crime was commited in LA (not Los Angeles), it looks like he would have qualified for the "Automatic First-Offender Pardon" due to the fact that it was his first offense and it was a non-violent crime so his right to possess a firearm would have been restored. Unfortunately, I don't think California has these types of pardons, although I could be wrong. Maybe he should move to LA. Anyways, thanks for the link and the info!!

[SOG240]

One last question, what if he were to move to a different state (specifically Nevada) with a 1203.4 pc. Could he qualify as a Peace Officer in that state? At the moment, he was offered a non-LE position in Search and Rescue with a local Sheriff's Office, so he's wondering if he should take it or move out of state and try for a Peace Officer position. Thanks again!!

[Scott21]

One last question, what if he were to move to a different state (specifically Nevada) with a 1203.4 pc. Could he qualify as a Peace Officer in that state? At the moment, he was offered a non-LE position in Search and Rescue with a local Sheriff's Office, so he's wondering if he should take it or move out of state and try for a Peace Officer position. Thanks again!!




State to state is even worse, Nevada will probably not even recognise Californias 1203.4 pc. And look at you just like a convicted felon.

[SOG240]

I see....maybe he should just accept the non-LE position being offered to him.

[bigislander72]

I too have a conviction that was expunged via 1203.4 PC . Except I also had the 17B motion reducing it to a misdemeanor prior to the expungment. I was curious as to what my firearm status is on the federal level, as I am not a convicted felon nor convicted of a MCDV. In California, a misdemeanor conviction for my particular offense brings with it a lifetime prohibition, regardless of expungment. Would this be true in another state? An attorney I talked to said that other states honor each others law. Except with the expungment, I need not disclose the conviction except when applying to a CA agency, so does this reflect in the federal background check? I talked to the firearm dept. in HI and they seemed to think so, as the conviction was expunged, but this has different meanings in each state.

I am not sure if I am getting the straight scoop from the attorney, as there would be a high fee if they were to take my case. I am not interested in being a cop, just curious if I will ever be able to legally possess a firearm in my lifetime.

[Scott21]

I too have a conviction that was expunged via 1203.4 PC . Except I also had the 17B motion reducing it to a misdemeanor prior to the expungment. I was curious as to what my firearm status is on the federal level, as I am not a convicted felon nor convicted of a MCDV. In California, a misdemeanor conviction for my particular offense brings with it a lifetime prohibition, regardless of expungment. Would this be true in another state? An attorney I talked to said that other states honor each others law. Except with the expungment, I need not disclose the conviction except when applying to a CA agency, so does this reflect in the federal background check? I talked to the firearm dept. in HI and they seemed to think so, as the conviction was expunged, but this has different meanings in each state.

I am not sure if I am getting the straight scoop from the attorney, as there would be a high fee if they were to take my case. I am not interested in being a cop, just curious if I will ever be able to legally possess a firearm in my lifetime.



I looked this up for you, you can get a governor pardon and if it wasn't a violent crime where a weapon was used, it will restore your firearms right. Hope that helps.

[bigislander72]

I looked this up for you, you can get a governor pardon and if it wasn't a violent crime where a weapon was used, it will restore your firearms right. Hope that helps.

Unfortunately, it was a violent crime. And also it is a misdemeanor, and pardons only apply to felonies as far as I know. I have pretty much given up on having rights restored in CA, but I am still curious to what my status is on the federal level.

[Scott21]

Unfortunately, it was a violent crime. And also it is a misdemeanor, and pardons only apply to felonies as far as I know. I have pretty much given up on having rights restored in CA, but I am still curious to what my status is on the federal level.



What was the conviction? I'll look it up for you.

[fatfreddiescat]

The Judge for the hearing only approved him for the 1203.4 PC but not the 17b PC

What if it was all done in appropriate order, that is, time/date on the 17b proceeds the time/date on the 1203.4?

Is that right? Would that person then be allowed to possess firearms, get into a 'sworn' job, etc? See complete question next post. Thx

[fatfreddiescat]

I have a cousin who is also interested in a Law Enforcement career. Unfortunately, several years ago, he was convicted of PC 487(a) and was sentenced to 3 years probation (no jail time served). It was also his first (and only) offense. He completed probation and hasn't gotten into any trouble since. Just recently, he was granted 1203.4 (dismissal/expunged of charges), but not 17b. Due to the fact that the felony conviction was not reduced to a misdemeanor before he was granted the 1203.4, he is not allowed to own, possess or have in his control, any firearm.
My question is, is there anything in the Penal Code that could grant him relief from that particular prohibition so he can become a LEO? Or could the Department that he would be applying for, somehow help him in this matter? I honestly didn't know what to tell him, so I decided to post the question/s here. Any help would greatly be appreciated. Thank you in advance!!

moved question to recruitments thread.

Thanks