Off-Duty Carry

[k9cop5812]

Alright guys...Here's my question. I am a rook in the Post-Academy of my Dep't. I've asked nearly all my instructors, Acad. and Post-Acad., about this and all I've received is "...In my opinion...". Well, I am looking for a B&W answer and where I can go to reference. Question: As a sworn LEO, can I carry concealed ANWYHERE in the nation? Private property (posted prohibited to carry or not), DC, NY? Here's why I want to know...other than to be in compliance with the law, if some clown comes up and tells me that I cannot carry in {name private property}, I can tell him to pound sand and this is why..{insert reference}. Thanks All.

[jmat1980]

As a sworn officer you can carry anywhere in the U.S. This authority is given to you by HR 218 see http://www.leaa.org/218/218text.html for more info...(this includes DC and NY)

As far as carrying on private property...i.e. ammusement parks, malls, etc...
If there is policy that no one carrying a firearm may enter...you are out of luck.

[Silvershield]

You are looking for a B&W answer in a gray world my friend. HR 218 is a leap forward for law enforcement, but there have been so many micro managing issues that are bogging down the effect of the law. For rexample the law says you can caryy anywhere, but your department reserves the right to make a policy that says no you cant. So you wont get charged criminally but you will get fired, the same holds true for locality and geographic area. A town etc. can make a local law or policy which tweeks the federal law using loopholes, legal games etc. to make very difficult for you to carry,of course this can be argued for or against as far as the eye can see the horizon. My advice do your homework, where ever you are going to travel call the local PD, the local mayor's office and if you can the local ATF office, cover all your bases, yes its a little more effort on your part and it should not be that way however, it is what it is, if your going to a private property area, just take a few more moments to contact that facilities security office and ask if its ok. Remeber this is only my advice, I carry off duty as little as possible, so this issue doesnt bother me much.

[KenW.]

There are a few places you can't lawfully carry; we may not carry while off-duty in our nations National Parks... Yet. There is a bill in Congress that would allow it.

I'm a retired GI, and I can't legally carry on the local military base grocery shopping when off-duty.

One place I wouldn't mess with trying to carry is a Federal Building other than a Post Office.

I fly commercially while armed (on extraditions), and would love to see HR218 take to the skies as well.

You'll read some member's stating that "concealed is concealed" from both view and knowledge, and they get away with it. You'd be relying on another agency's or officer's level of professional courtesy. You'll need to decide if it is worth the repercussions should you get caught.

[detsarg]

Question: As a sworn LEO, can I carry concealed ANWYHERE in the nation?

No.

...if some clown comes up and tells me that I cannot carry in {name private property}, I can tell him to pound sand and this is why..{insert reference}.

The inference and tone of your post make me think you are calling the owner of a private business or the owner’s representative a “clown.”

Your badge is so young and already so heavy. You may want to put that ego in check before you go much further in your law enforcement career if you want that career to last.

The private property/business owner of which you speak, or “clown,” if you will, has every right to tell YOU to pound sand if you want to carry concealed on HIS property under the authority of HR218.

If I were a business owner I would welcome off duty officers to carry concealed in my establishment, unless I got an attitude, then not only are they not carrying, they’re not entering.

[KenW.]

I am a rook in the Post-Academy

I overlooked this opening statement. HR218 won't do you any good until you are a "qualified LEO". Once you ARE one, follow the advice of your FTO; If you don't like that go speak with your agency's legal council.

You shouldn't ake anything you learn here on the interweb thingly as gospel.

[SammyCal1]

You've received some very good advice here from very experienced officers. Remember it always. Also, remember that when you are out of state, you are a private citizen not a police officer. You're police powers do not follow you state to state. Therefore, it is up to you to know the laws of the state that you are entering.

Like it was said earlier, HR218 is not black & white, but is very grey.

Be careful and be safe.

Sammy

[just joe]

You should also check various Attorney General's opinions. I am in Ohio and the Attorney General has said that off duty officers may carry concealed on private property that prohibits it, I believe the exceptions being schools, bars, courthouses and Fed property, but it has been a while since I read it. So, if I'm going to my local grocery, which has a sign posted prohibiting CC, and, if for whatever reason, the manager knows I am carrying concealed, I can politely explain that I am a LEO and that the AG has said what I am doing is okay. I think if push comes to shove, it is still private property and I can still be told to leave and given a criminal trespass warning, if the store so desires. So, while I may be protected from violating any aspect of the CCW law, I will not be protected from violating the CT law if the owner or his agents trespasses me from the property. Learn a little finesse because the answer will vary from town to town and cop to cop.

[firemanjb]

You should also check various Attorney General's opinions. I am in Ohio and the Attorney General has said that off duty officers may carry concealed on private property that prohibits it, I believe the exceptions being schools, bars, courthouses and Fed property, but it has been a while since I read it.

I believe the issue on private property has to do with how the state law is written. HR218 should exempt us from local laws restricting firearm carriage and ownership, such as Chicago banning all handguns. If the state law bans firearms from, say, amusement parks, then an out of state officer is bound by that.

In Kentucky, officers may carry anywhere in the Commonwealth without restriction. Obviously, federal law trumps state law, so if federal law bans it, we'd have to abide by that (like sterile areas in the airport).

[10-97UPD]

With all of the loopholes and grey area in the HR 218....it is a risk. If the law was cut and dry I think we all would breathe a bit easier. Id say that you are at the mercy of the Police department/government where you are being questioned. Hopefully they believe in professional courtesy. As far as private property...If you go to Disneyland and Goofy says "uh uh...uh...no carry..uhh uh"...LOL. then no carry. There are reasons behind these policies and as LEOs it is our duty to RESPECT those reasons and wishes of others. We are not always "above the law" as some would think.

[SgtCHP]

HR 218 is in some regards a pain. It allows interstate CCW, however the caveats are under issue in many states. As an academy trainee you are NOT permitted to CCW until you have graduated and been sworn - unless your agency recognizes your peace officer status now. That said, I have never had the occassion to address a CCW problem with any visiting LEO in my jurisdiction when I was employed (long before HR 218). I went by the personal opinion of don't ask - don't tell (that was long before the Clinton administration).

Cops are cops irrespective of jurisdiction and uniform.

"Tis better to be judged by twelve than carried by six!"

BTW - No CCW in Disneyland, Knotts Berry Farm, Magic Mountain or Universal Studios in CA.

[k9cop5812]

Well all, thanks for the advice...I have come to the conclusion that this is going to be a roll of the dice...as it appears that some think it's legal to CC on private property, and others don't. I will call my Commonwealth's Att. office in the AM and see what advice she can give.

-A bit of clarification...I am not an academy student, I am sworn and am on the street.

-Thanks again

[jmat1980]

You've received some very good advice here from very experienced officers. Remember it always. Also, remember that when you are out of state, you are a private citizen not a police officer. You're police powers do not follow you state to state. Therefore, it is up to you to know the laws of the state that you are entering.

This is a very good point. If your a cop in VA and travel to NY you can carry by law however if something should happen and you need to use deadly force you are doing so as a private citizen and need to follow state law.

If im not mistaken some states actually require a person being robbed, assaulted, etc... to retreat rather than fight back...

[Tim Dees]

Here's a couple of other considerations:

You might be able to carry lawfully on private property, but the private property owner is also free to kick your butt off of his property if you're not there on official (e.g. police) business. He can't compel you to give up your gun or put it in your car, but he can compel you to leave. This is what happens if you get caught carrying on any of the Disney properties. They'll first ask you to show that you're carrying lawfully, then ask you to secure the weapon with their security office, and if you refuse, they'll show you the door.
If you keep the weapon concealed, this is unlikely to be an issue at all. I think every rookie, me included, has carried in a manner that caused the hardware to be flashed now and again. It's just so bitchin' to be a cop that you want everyone to know. Fortunately, most of us grow out of this phase. If you put together your outfits to fully conceal whatever gun you're carrying and however you're carrying it, this shouldn't ever be a problem. Of course, you can also reduce your exposure by setting the example that you're supposed to set as a police officer, and not giving other cops any reason to look twice at you unless it's to wave back. That means driving the speed limit, watching your liquor intake, and avoiding vexatious individuals unless they are actively committing a crime (and, even then, giving favor to the option of calling an on-duty cop to intercede). I'm a big believer in having trained, disciplined people carrying guns for the protection of themselves and others, but also in not revealing oneself as one of those people unless the situation is truly desperate.

[FNA209]

There are a few places you can't lawfully carry; we may not carry while off-duty in our nations National Parks... Yet. There is a bill in Congress that would allow it.



It's a funny thing about that. I was out your way on vacation a few years back and we went to the grand Canyon. I asked the Parks Police about my having a gun in the car. One said, "No!" His boss said, "You're a cop? No problem, just don't shoot anyone!" :D So, it varies with the agency's policy. And it does make it hard to figure out sometimes. Likewise, the National Mall in DC is a National "Something". I was told it was no problem when I was down there. When at Gettysbury, I was told no. Obviously, I didn't carry in that park.



I'm a retired GI, and I can't legally carry on the local military base grocery shopping when off-duty.



Same thing with that. I'm retired mil also. There was one base I could carry on. Then I couldn't. Then I could. I'm not sure about now. :confused:

It gets tough to figure out. One time, they wouldn't lock my gun up for me and I couldn't get on base at all. Another time, they had me unload it and put it in the trunk. Another time, they said, "You're a cop- go ahead."




You'll read some member's stating that "concealed is concealed" from both view and knowledge, and they get away with it. You'd be relying on another agency's or officer's level of professional courtesy. You'll need to decide if it is worth the repercussions should you get caught.



That's the big question. Making a decision on trusting another agency's or officer's level of professional courtesy. And to add to that decision, if you get jammed up, you have to trust the courtesy of the States Attorney that is going to review the case.

It's definitely something to weigh out.

[SgtCHP]

Alright guys...Here's my question. I am a rook in the Post-Academy of my Dep't. I've asked nearly all my instructors, Acad. and Post-Acad., about this and all I've received is "...In my opinion...".

Your own writing style may be the cause of confusion. What you ask is a gray area....except as may be required by your own department. Carrying a concealed weapon OFF DUTY is covered by AB 218, your state penal code, deparmental policy and common sense. As stated by many, private property issues are dictated by the owner/manager of that property. Some major entertainment centers discourage and prohibit the carrying of concealed weapons by ANYONE - including off duty officers.

As you stated in your last post, inquire of your State's Attorney or your own Chief of Police or Sheriff.