Polygraph

[zeoc]

Hello, I have a question about the polygraph portion of the hiring process, specifically with LAPD. How do they score the polygraph? Is it pass/fail or is it pass/inconclusive or something like that? If you fail the polygraph exam with one agency can you ever pass a background examination again with another agency? Thanks.

[1895bombdog]

For more info check out: www.polygraph.com or http://antipolygraph.org
You can tell the truth and still fail.(I have) I recomend you check out the above listed and prepare.
Good luck!

[INTHEAIRCOP]

I took 5 poly in my life. You are not going to believe this but I told the truth on the first 4 and failed. So on the 5th I flat out lied and I passed. I think the poly should not be used in hirring, it is a joke if you ask me. The poly is not 100 percent.

[ud22206]

I took 5 poly in my life. You are not going to believe this but I told the truth on the first 4 and failed. So on the 5th I flat out lied and I passed. I think the poly should not be used in hirring, it is a joke if you ask me. The poly is not 100 percent.

I hope your boss doesnt read this

[zeoc]

Alright, I checked out www.polygraph.com and I was just wondering if buying the program that is suppsed to help you pass the poly is prohibited or if it will hurt me in any way during the process if the agency finds out that I used it. Thanks.

[PageB]

I have heard it's standard practice to ask if you've researched the polygraph (and/or "countermeasures"). Wouldn't you research any test you were going to take? I did for the physical assessment and the oral board!

It seems to me that if they don't think "countermeasures" work, they wouldn't care how much you had researched them. But FOR SOME REASON they don't want you to research them. :rolleyes:

If they accuse you of USING countermeasures and you admit it or you are super-obvious, I would guess that your LE career is toast.

[INTHEAIRCOP]

UD22206

I would not care if my boss read this forum because I did not lie on my application for this job. I told them everything. Half the fed jobs do not even give a poly for employment.

[1895bombdog]

Alright, I checked out www.polygraph.com and I was just wondering if buying the program that is suppsed to help you pass the poly is prohibited or if it will hurt me in any way during the process if the agency finds out that I used it. Thanks.

Being familiar with the mind games they play during a polygraph might help you receive a more favorable outcome. Do not for one minute believe that this machine actually detects lies. It is an interrogation tool designed to intimidate you into disclosing information. Nothing else.

[kicket]

Yep i told the truth and failed that is why i will not apply to any agency that uses them for hireing and every agency here uses them.

[Berlioz]

I just took my poly a few days ago...basically, at the end I got accused of controlling my breathing, and got asked if I researched the poly. Besides reading threads about it on here, i havent and thats what I stuck with. But the kicker is, the examiner said I reacted to the drug usage, so we talked about it and I said that I was a little off in my times used in high school, but nothing extreme or after the last time I said I used. I was told my results would be further reviewed and most likely have to test again. This was for LAPD...is this normally what happens? Did I fail, done for good or do they normally let you believe things went rough before they pass you?

[ud22206]

just trying to press you. if you told the truth, dont sweat it.

[eastcoastskiier]

I'm in the process for the USSS - UD and I had the same situation. I was told at the end of the polygraph that I was deploying counter measures. I then respond "I never researched any counter measure techniques. I can assume you think that I was controlling my breathing because you asked me if I participated in any yoga type training".

I told him the truth, as I never looked into any methods to beat a polygraph (if its even possible).

I'm hoping that I don't need to retake it, if that even is a possibility.

[daveplaz]

The poly is simply a tool-nothing more or less. If you tell the truth you should be fine. Contrary to poular belief, poly's arn't flawless and may give a 'false' reading every now and then but for the most part they are pretty accurate. For those of you who may be thinking of "beating" the poly, I wouldn't advise it because anything that you may have misled on during the poly questionnare will, more than likely, come up during the background.

As far as failing the poly and being able to be hired by another department: Yes, that is possible. I've known several people, myself included, who failed a few polys and later got hired by another department. Don't let that discourage you-never give up and keep on trying.

[sdd241]

I have taken several poly's and also just took the course on giving the poly
it is not the counter measures or the poly test itself
the problem is more with the person administering the test.
They are reading the results wrong,or misreading them.
that is why they are giving a new class on how to administer the test. and give a small class on how to read a blood pressure.

[DetectorAz]

I read with intrest the postings here. I am a polygraph examiner and have been for 21 years. The new developments in equipment, training, and detection of countermeasures is remarkable. I would suggest to all applicants that are going to take a polygraph examination, do not use countermeasures. Qualified examiners will detect them and this is an automatic DQ for most departments. Generally you are not offered a second chance if you use countermeasures.

Tell the truth and pass your examination. If for some reason you tell the truth and the examiner says your examination shows you are deceptive, discuss this with him and ask for a retest with another examiner. Most departments will afford you this chance.

Generally we find that the reason persons do not pass when telling the truth on the examination is a result of not discussing what bothers you about a particular question. Don't be afraid to ask the examiner what the question means and explain any problem you have with any question prior to the examination. Just be up front and discuss "every" detail that bothers you on any question to be asked during the examination.

[1895bombdog]

I read with intrest the postings here. I am a polygraph examiner and have been for 21 years. The new developments in equipment, training, and detection of countermeasures is remarkable. I would suggest to all applicants that are going to take a polygraph examination, do not use countermeasures. Qualified examiners will detect them and this is an automatic DQ for most departments. Generally you are not offered a second chance if you use countermeasures.

Tell the truth and pass your examination. If for some reason you tell the truth and the examiner says your examination shows you are deceptive, discuss this with him and ask for a retest with another examiner. Most departments will afford you this chance.

Generally we find that the reason persons do not pass when telling the truth on the examination is a result of not discussing what bothers you about a particular question. Don't be afraid to ask the examiner what the question means and explain any problem you have with any question prior to the examination. Just be up front and discuss "every" detail that bothers you on any question to be asked during the examination.


I’ve taken several tests told the truth and have been told that I my chart was deceptive. Please don’t say that it was the examiners fault. The mere fact that this test relies on a person’s interpretation (human error) tells me that this is more pseudo science than real science. Personally I feel more comfortable being interviewed by a psychic.
While I’m sure this machine may work on some I don’t believe it works on everyone. Since you are kind enough to post on this site may I ask you a couple of questions?
Any person with any common sense could tell the difference between a control question and a question that is different and important to the outcome of the test. If the person receiving the test shows a different reaction because of this can’t that be detected as possible deception? If the test shows stress how can you be sure that the cause is deception and not anxiety or resentment?
How does a polygraph compensate for different morals or values or poor memory a person may have?
Is it true that other factors like the manner in which a question is asked, the tone of voice in which it’s asked, being uncomfortable sitting for a long time or having the sensors apply pressure to the body be detected as deception?
Why have so many criminals passed polygraphs only to have evidence later convict them?
If polygraphs truly work why are examiners concerned about counter measures? Shouldn’t they work regardless?
Why are polygraphs not admissible in court?
Why does the american polygraph association recomend that the decision to hire, or not to hire a law enforcement applicant, should never be based solely on the results of the polygraph examination.

http://www.polygraph.org

[DetectorAz]

1895, I am sorry you had problems with polygraph. You ask many questions which I will try to answer. Please remember and be aware, I don't have all of the answers, but will try my best to answer.

1. "Any person with any common sense could tell the difference between a control question and a question that is different and important to the outcome of the test. If the person receiving the test shows a different reaction because of this can’t that be detected as possible deception?"

Should I have the opportunity to test you, I assure you that the control questions are much different than advertised on the sites you learned this from. You will not generally recognize the control questions I use, I wil not elaborate on that point further. So the answer would be NO.

2. "If the test shows stress how can you be sure that the cause is deception and not anxiety or resentment?"

I don't believe that the test shows "Stress", it shows that you are having a conflict within yourself when you answer in the manner you do. This does not mean you are "lying" or deceptive, therefore we need to discuss what might be causing that reaction and test again when we resolve that issue.

3. "How does a polygraph compensate for different morals or values or poor memory a person may have?"

It does not compensate for any of those factors, the examiner has to have a knowledge of these factors with each individual in order to properly construct the questions for the examination. The questions must be fully understood and the meaning of the question discussed prior to an examination. Everyone has to be on the same page.

4. "Is it true that other factors like the manner in which a question is asked, the tone of voice in which it’s asked, being uncomfortable sitting for a long time or having the sensors apply pressure to the body be detected as deception? "

YES and NO, the first part of the question manner in which questions are asked is Yes it will have an effect on the examination, therefore all should be asked in a monotone voice with no emphasis on any particular question. Part two of the question generallly the placement of sensors and being uncomfortabe setting for a long period of time does not cause a specific reaction to a specific question, however it can affect the entire procedure and cause problmes in interpretation.

5. "Why have so many criminals passed polygraphs only to have evidence later convict them?

I would have to have specifics on each case to be able to even proffer a possible explination.

6. "If polygraphs truly work why are examiners concerned about counter measures? Shouldn’t they work regardless? "

Because I want you to pass your examination first time around. Counter Measures are detetable and are an automatic DQ with agencies I have worked for and do work for now.


7. "Why are polygraphs not admissible in court?"

They are admissible in several circumstances in many jurisdictions and it appears this will increase not decrease as time passes and we, the examiners become higher quality examiners. The research goes both ways on admissibility and it depends entirely on the trier of fact at this time. I have personally testified in criminal cases regarding polygraph and it was admissable evidence.

8. "Why does the american polygraph association recomend that the decision to hire, or not to hire a law enforcement applicant, should never be based solely on the results of the polygraph examination."

Screening examinations are the least reliable polygraph examinatons in determining truth from deception, therefore, the APA "Recommends" that they not be the sole determining factor in hiring, with which I agree. If you fail a screening examination, then you should be given a specific examinion regardiing the question you showed deception on and we now have a good an examination that is very reliable in determining deception or truth.

Hope this helps you understand a little bit more about polygraph and procedure in administering them. Please excuse the spelling and grammer, I am tired after 14 hours of work.

[1895bombdog]

I still have to respectfully disagree with the process. I believe the human mind is far too complex and there are far too many factors that are subject to interpretation. Therefore subject to human error. And a simple honest mistake can affect a person’s life their career and ability to provide for his/her family.

[eastcoastskiier]

I'm just not a fan of the examiner telling me that I used 'counter measures' when I never researched anything. I did read what was discussed in this thread and made that clear to my examiner that no specific measures were discussed. But still, I can be almost yelled at saying that I used them?

I'd have to go with that the human mind is far to complex to be measured via a few short questions and then measuring the persons response.

[DetectorAz]

I do respect both of your opinions and you have my apology for problems you may have had or may have in the future with polygraph. I do hope you find an examiner that can intepret your polygraph correctly and render an honest and confident opinion that reflects you honesty and integrity appropriately.

[HD22]

Being involved with using polygraphs on a regular basis, I have seen both sides. I can honestly (LOL) say my feelings are they are 90-95% accurrate. I think there are a few that get nailed that are not lying, they just get freaked by it.

I have been able to absolutely nail a number of people on the exact questions they got called on in the poly. Which for me was pretty good evidence that they work. One smart ***** all but dared me to prove he was lying. I did :D

I understand both sides. But like I said I've seen the results proven.

[equinox137]

With all due respect HD, polys only report the physical stimuli in response to a question. Because of that it can detect memories brought on by a question, moral feelings about a question, or even worrying about farting during your exam . . . that can be interpretted as deception. I have to respectfully speculate that your successes were based on either luck, or other factors.

Would you send somebody to the chair/the gurney and needle based on what came about on a polygraph?

[1895bombdog]

With all due respect HD, polys only report the physical stimuli in response to a question. Because of that it can detect memories brought on by a question, moral feelings about a question, or even worrying about farting during your exam . . . that can be interpretted as deception. I have to respectfully speculate that your successes were based on either luck, or other factors.

Would you send somebody to the chair/the gurney and needle based on what came about on a polygraph?

They sit you in a quiet blank room and then ask you questions. Since my mind is constantly thinking I found that when they asked a question they also implanted a thought. Not a memory a thought. Whether or not I had ever done what they asked I found myself imaging the thought that they had introduced and then sometimes answered questions contrary to what I was thinking.

[freem40]

THAT HAS IN FACT HAPPENED TO ME EXCEPT IT WAS BEFORE I HAD EVER HEARD OF "COUNTERMEASURES." I was yelled at with a big fist shaking in my face. It was the most ridiculous thing I have ever seen. Needless to say I will never try to get into that dept again even though the window is still open because that was too huge of a lack in professionalism to be ignored.

[HD22]

With all due respect HD, polys only report the physical stimuli in response to a question. Because of that it can detect memories brought on by a question, moral feelings about a question, or even worrying about farting during your exam . . . that can be interpretted as deception. I have to respectfully speculate that your successes were based on either luck, or other factors.

Would you send somebody to the chair/the gurney and needle based on what came about on a polygraph?

Like I said, I can see both sides.

I know the majority of those who take the poly pass it. So relax, sit still and answer truthfully. The more you guys read these discussions does nothing but increase your stress and mess you up when you go in there. :D

[DetectorAz]

With all due respect HD, polys only report the physical stimuli in response to a question. Because of that it can detect memories brought on by a question, moral feelings about a question, or even worrying about farting during your exam . . . that can be interpretted as deception. I have to respectfully speculate that your successes were based on either luck, or other factors.

Would you send somebody to the chair/the gurney and needle based on what came about on a polygraph?


Your words of wisdom need some help. Polygraph does not "Report the physical stimuli" it records the physical (Physiological) response to the question which is the stimuli.

Now to the part of moral feelings and worrying about flatuation: If you have discussed your moral feelings with the examiner this does not become a issue. If you need to relieve yourself common sense would dictate you do so prior to the examination not during the examination. If you are more concerned about bodily functions than answering the questions truthfully maybe you need to do some introspection regarding your career choice.

Your speculation is your own thought process and does not reflect reality. I have not seen anyone put to death based on the results of a polygraph examination, therefore your question is not logical. It appears you have your own agenda regarding polygraph testing.

[George Maschke]

Hello, I have a question about the polygraph portion of the hiring process, specifically with LAPD. How do they score the polygraph? Is it pass/fail or is it pass/inconclusive or something like that? If you fail the polygraph exam with one agency can you ever pass a background examination again with another agency? Thanks.

You'll find the questions asked on the LAPD polygraph listed here (https://antipolygraph.org/cgi-bin/forums/YaBB.pl?board=Proc;action=display;num=1129089368).

See also the LAPD's Pre-Employment Polygraph Guidelines:

http://antipolygraph.org/documents/lapd-polygraph-guidelines.pdf

The polygraph charts are scored using a 7-point numerical scale, and the possible outcomes are pass (no significant responses), fail (significant responses), and inconconclusive (no opinion). Alternatively, the polygrapher may accuse the applicant of using countermeasures.

For more on how polygraph charts are scored, see the Department of Defense Polygraph Institute's "Numerical Evaluation Scoring System":

http://antipolygraph.org/documents/dodpi-numerical-scoring-08-2006.pdf

Those who are wrongly accused of deception on the LAPD polygraph should promptly appeal the results and request a re-test (which is likely to be granted).

Applicants who have failed the LAPD polygraph have been successful in finding employment elsewhere, but the polygraph results do make it more difficult.

[equinox137]

Your words of wisdom need some help. Polygraph does not "Report the physical stimuli" it records the physical (Physiological) response to the question which is the stimuli.

Yes, you're correct - I misspoke. However the physical/physiological response to the question is highly open to interpretation, as in the physicatric field.

Now to the part of moral feelings and worrying about flatuation: If you have discussed your moral feelings with the examiner this does not become a issue.

In theory, yes.

If you need to relieve yourself common sense would dictate you do so prior to the examination not during the examination. If you are more concerned about bodily functions than answering the questions truthfully maybe you need to do some introspection regarding your career choice.

I was merely giving that as an example. I didn't mean it literally.

Your speculation is your own thought process and does not reflect reality. I have not seen anyone put to death based on the results of a polygraph examination, therefore your question is not logical. It appears you have your own agenda regarding polygraph testing.

Not at all....I'm simple a peon making my way in the world. I've taken polys and passed them - I just simply don't believe in their validity. There is too much unknown about the brain and it's physiological responses to stimuli to make accurate assumptions about truth or deception, which is why I gave the example someone put to death based on a poly. There hasn't been anyone put to death on the results of a poly for a reason.

[SA13]

Ah, antipolygraph.org, George Maschke, and "advice" about the polygraph.

Ask yourself if you really want the advice of someone whose entire history with polygraph is based on failing a poly, being denied a job, and now is on a crusade to say the poly is "junk science" or "pseudo science.?"

Is the guy that failed a poly, and has never passed a poly given by a LE agency, really the guy you want to take advice from when it comes to trying to pass a poly and get into LE?

It's your career you'll be flushing down the toilet if you take his advice.

You may also want to read:
http://forums.officer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54986&highlight=polygraph+FBI

[George Maschke]

Ah, antipolygraph.org, George Maschke, and "advice" about the polygraph.

Ask yourself if you really want the advice of someone whose entire history with polygraph is based on failing a poly, being denied a job, and now is on a crusade to say the poly is "junk science" or "pseudo science.?"

Is the guy that failed a poly, and has never passed a poly given by a LE agency, really the guy you want to take advice from when it comes to trying to pass a poly and get into LE?

It's your career you'll be flushing down the toilet if you take his advice.

You may also want to read:
http://forums.officer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54986&highlight=polygraph+FBI

Any who wish to know more about my experience with the polygraph may see my statement, "Too Hot of a Potato: A Citizen-Soldier's Encounter with the Polygraph." (http://antipolygraph.org/statements/statement-003.shtml) But I don't see how this is germane to the answers I provided to zeoc's questions about the LAPD polygraph process. If you genuinely believe that anything in my reply to zeoc is false or misleading, please explain.

[mtnbkrpnk]

On my polygraph I was asked if I had ever stolen anything. I honestly could not think of anytime that I had intentionally stolen anything except as a child, so I said "no." and explained that as a child I vaguely remembered taking a candy bar off a shelf. Later, I was told that my response to that question showed some possible deception, so they ran me through a second time. I gave the same responses the second time and passed. I don't know if they actually were seeing anything deceptive in my responses or if that was a ploy to try to get my to change my story.

[mobrien316]

Ah, antipolygraph.org, George Maschke, and "advice" about the polygraph.

Ask yourself if you really want the advice of someone whose entire history with polygraph is based on failing a poly, being denied a job, and now is on a crusade to say the poly is "junk science" or "pseudo science.?"

Is the guy that failed a poly, and has never passed a poly given by a LE agency, really the guy you want to take advice from when it comes to trying to pass a poly and get into LE?

It's your career you'll be flushing down the toilet if you take his advice.

You may also want to read:
http://forums.officer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54986&highlight=polygraph+FBI
I'd be interested to hear which parts of George's book, "The Lie Behind The Lie Detector," you feel are not true, or are poorly researched.

Or have you skipped the middle step and simply condemned his book and his site without reading them?

Perhaps you could, at the very least, familiarize yourself with the National Academy of Sciences report and their conclusions. Or do you have some reason for debunking their bias against the polygraph as well?

[355339]

I failed twice on the same question. It was easily confirmed I was truthfull with one phone call to the dept I was leaving. The polygraph and a waste of materials used to disqualify good applicants.

[Whats_Shakin]

I couldn't agree more with you.