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rx8rider
09-03-2006, 10:45 AM
I was cited for 105 in a 65 zone on 71 S in Ohio. My record is otherwise perfect. The conditions were; sunny and clear, with "moderate" traffic. The fine was $180 and 4 points. I know (after speaking to the Lt. at the Aerial Surveillance dept) that the plane usually operates at ~2000 ft above ground and that there was highway construction on this highway. Even from 500 ft. above ground, that would be equivalent to identifying/distinguishing a 1 foot object from 38 feet away, fairly difficult and subjective in my estimation. Factoring in human error of .5 seconds at each end of the markers translates to an avg speed of 94 mph vs. 105 assuming the distance was 1/4 mile. I would very much like to keep this incident (and the points) off of my record and I was wandering what advice you might have. I'm hoping that the DA will be reasonable and bump it down when I go speak to him this week. Any advice is appreciated. Thanks

Staubb00
09-03-2006, 10:58 AM
I was cited for 105 in a 65 zone on 71 S in Ohio. My record is otherwise perfect. The conditions were; sunny and clear, with "moderate" traffic. The fine was $180 and 4 points. I know (after speaking to the Lt. at the Aerial Surveillance dept) that the plane usually operates at ~2000 ft above ground and that there was highway construction on this highway. Even from 500 ft. above ground, that would be equivalent to identifying/distinguishing a 1 foot object from 38 feet away, fairly difficult and subjective in my estimation. Factoring in human error of .5 seconds at each end of the markers translates to an avg speed of 94 mph vs. 105 assuming the distance was 1/4 mile. I would very much like to keep this incident (and the points) off of my record and I was wandering what advice you might have. I'm hoping that the DA will be reasonable and bump it down when I go speak to him this week. Any advice is appreciated. Thanks

105 in a 65? yikes. were u flying an aircraft yourself?

RBrodowski
09-03-2006, 11:12 AM
You never know, but it never hurts to try. 40mph over, though, might not be something they reduce.

VA Dutch
09-03-2006, 11:13 AM
You are lucky this was not in VA......or you most likely would have ended up doing some jail time and been handed walking papers for up to thirty days.
:eek:

For 40 mph over the limit, a $180 fine is actually quite a good deal. If they "only" charged you with a summary offense of speeding and not 'reckless driving' (a Class I Misdemeanor in VA), consider yourself to be among the fortunate. If you are not licensed in Ohio, there is a small chance that this infraction may not even end up on your DMV record. Not all states reciprocate and some jurisdictions only want the revenue and won't bother to report the ticket to your home state.

If they measured your speed from an aircraft, it is likely they used VASCAR or some other type of chronograph that involved timing your vehicle's rate of travel between two fixed points. In VA, they use wide white lines painted 1/4 of a mile apart and perpendicular to the lane(s) of travel. Even at a high altitude, it is relatively accurate. Oh, and a state trooper in the aircraft will have binoculars - so he will have no trouble spotting your speeding vehicle, as well as the cars ahead of and behind you. Of course, he will use that info to radio a car on the ground that will end up stopping you and writing the ticket. {Ex: A blue pickup truck behind a yellow cement mixer and ahead of a red convertible, etc., etc.}

Anyway, good luck and slow down a bit!
:)


P.S. I know a guy who lives in PA and got a ticket for 90+ mph in Ohio last year. He paid a larger fine, but did not have to go to court there and no points ever ended up (yet) on his PA license. Had he been in VA, 90+ mph would qualify for "reckless driving" and he would have to appear in court.

I suppose it just depends upon the judge.

Florida Smokey
09-03-2006, 11:14 AM
A speeding ticket from an aircraft is virtually impossible to beat. I usually work at least one aircraft detail a week, sometimes more. In my neck of the woods, the judges slam dunk defendants in aircraft cases.
The margin of error goes to the violator. The aircraft measures the average speed it takes the vehicle to cross the lines, not the maximum speed. Basically, if a person was going 50 mph at the beginning, and 100 mph at the end, the speed would only show 75mph. Also, the pilots give you an extra car length. They start the stop watch when the front of your car crosses the first line. The don't stop the watch until the REAR of your car crosses the second line, giving you a slower average speed.
From the altitude they are flying at, they have no trouble identifying a vehicle. They don't have to know if it's a Ford, Chevy, etc (although most pilots have been doing it so long that they can identify almost everything). They just have to tell the ground unit which car to stop. The pilot maintains eye contact with the violator and talks the ground officer to it. It would sound something like this:

Pilot: "Red van, inside lane, 88mph, number three to you. Now number one to you. You have the correct vehicle. 88 mph, red van"


It's very, very simple, but very, very effective.

birdman0
09-03-2006, 11:15 AM
Frankly, the pilots that do traffic enforcement are not likely to make routine "human error" mistakes in timing; that's what they do every day, all day. And I can speak from experience to the visual comparison you made - I don't think you are a pilot. It is quite easy to distinguish vehicle type, etc, and track a particular vehicle, from 2000 AGL (Above Ground Level). I think you are much better off just asking to have the fine reduced than to try to say the the pilot didn't know how to do his or her job.

rx8rider
09-03-2006, 05:04 PM
Thanks for all the replies. I honestly do consider myself lucky because when the officer said that I was clocked at 105 (avg), I just about froze! I thought that I might lose my licence and car. The officer was very courteous (as I was to him too) and I really have no beef with him. He didn't cite me for "reckless driving" and I'm thankful for that. I just don't want the four points on my record so I'm hoping that the DA will be able to work something out with me to get it reduced. Apparently, Ohio is using a lot of LIDAR and Aircraft these days, so I'll make sure to slow things down. I think that it's time to pay a visit to Mid-ohio and take it to the racetrack.

On another note, do you guys ever ticket people who are driving while talking on their cell phones, eating a burger, and driving with their knees?! You know what I'm talking about. I personally have found this type of driver to be significantly more dangerous to other drivers than people who drive over the speed limit.

rx8rider
09-03-2006, 05:10 PM
105 in a 65? yikes. were u flying an aircraft yourself?

lol. I do feel like I'm in a cockpit but no, I was driving a sports car (in sig) and i felt very much in control and safe, but I guess that really isn't the issue here.

VA Dutch
09-03-2006, 05:42 PM
lol. I do feel like I'm in a cockpit but no, I was driving a sports car (in sig) and i felt very much in control and safe, but I guess that really isn't the issue here.


I understand what you mean by that. There are some drivers who are competent, alert and well-skilled at operating a well-maintained vehicle at extra-legal speeds; just as there are many dolts who are "accidents waiting to happen" when only going 50 or 60 mph. Unfortunately, our laws are often designed around "those" people - rather than people who actually possess a modicum of driving ability.

Short of having "graduated" driving licenses based upon skill and an easy method of identifying those whose skills are above average, nothing is going to change. The gradual 'dumbing down' of society will continue, the "speed kills" mentality will be broadcast throughout the land and no effort will ever be undertaken to get the truly bad drivers off the road (or to at least improve their skills). Sorry for being politically incorrect or sounding anti-establishment here, but I wish there were a way that I could better articulate what I am trying to say.
:confused:

I'll leave it at that for now, sir. Just consider yourself very, very fortunate that you are not going to lose your license or spend any time in jail for your offense in Ohio. Also realize that $180 and four points is quite a deal that drivers elsewhere in your predicament would love to have been offered.

Time for you to bend over and take it like a man....and perhaps slow down a bit until you get on a track.

P.S. Just think about how your day would have been ruined if one of those "dolts" had swerved into your lane when you were doing 100 mph+. Speed itself may not kill, but difference in speed certainly can!

rx8rider
09-03-2006, 08:19 PM
[color=blue]

Short of having "graduated" driving licenses based upon skill and an easy method of identifying those whose skills are above average, nothing is going to change. The gradual 'dumbing down' of society will continue, the "speed kills" mentality will be broadcast throughout the land and no effort will ever be undertaken to get the truly bad drivers off the road (or to at least improve their skills). Sorry for being politically incorrect or sounding anti-establishment here, but I wish there were a way that I could better articulate what I am trying to say.
:confused:


You make a very good point there. However, it would be a nightmare enforcing diiferent limits on different people so I can see why this will never happen. My issue is really with the system as a whole though. I mean, look at the statistics in places like Germany (Autobahn ) and pre-speed limit Montana... there are/were fewer deaths than in places where speed limits are imposed. This teels me that it's not so much speed per se that kills, but rather poor judgement of the driver. Just a thought.

PPDMO373
09-03-2006, 09:06 PM
I mean, look at the statistics in places like Germany (Autobahn )

That's comparing apples to oranges.....as the Autobahn is built safer than US Interstates and German Drivers have to go through a ton more schooling to learn to drive before they get licensed.....

History Channel had a great show on it a while back.....but I can't find a link to it....can only find a link to the DVD.....

http://store.aetv.com/html/product/index.jhtml?id=71221&browseCategoryId=&location=&parentcatid=&subcatid=

t150vsuptpr
09-03-2006, 10:37 PM
I was cited for 105 in a 65 zone on 71 S in Ohio. My record is otherwise perfect. The conditions were; sunny and clear, with "moderate" traffic. The fine was $180 and 4 points. I know (after speaking to the Lt. at the Aerial Surveillance dept) that the plane usually operates at ~2000 ft above ground and that there was highway construction on this highway. Even from 500 ft. above ground, that would be equivalent to identifying/distinguishing a 1 foot object from 38 feet away, fairly difficult and subjective in my estimation. Factoring in human error of .5 seconds at each end of the markers translates to an avg speed of 94 mph vs. 105 assuming the distance was 1/4 mile. I would very much like to keep this incident (and the points) off of my record and I was wandering what advice you might have. I'm hoping that the DA will be reasonable and bump it down when I go speak to him this week. Any advice is appreciated. Thanks

Feel free to factor in a name like Petty or Surtees or Foyt if you like, 105 on our interstate here through the 1/4 mile traps and checked by aireal vascar will earn you minimum 10 days in jail, 1 day for every mile starting at 95 ... you do the math ... and that's minimum. You are already lucky to not be facing such a judge up there for your violation. I've seen some people come back from several states away and get 4 or 5 days in jail, to be served before they go back home, at only 95. One lady in particular from Mass got 4 days for 95, and appealed it, only to get a doubled fine and the same 4 days. $180 and 4 points ... that's all? That lady I mentioned got a $500 fine in lower court, doubled = $1,000 plus two court's costs, but she didn't get any points, because the judge took her license for 60 days and when they suspend a license, no demerit points are issued then as that would be like "double pointing".

As to you wanting to factor in a half second late at start and a half early at end to try and make his timing a second shorter than your actual time ... it don't work like that. He is in a position above and just like you, is able to anticipate the same as you cross each line, and here it's two 1/4 mile traps for a total of 1/2 mile, and he sticks with the violator until the unit has it on the side and has talked to the driver and calls info back up to observer like summons number, etc before he goes and gets another. Your half second figure is reaction to an unanticipated stimuli and even it would tend to be in the same direction each time.

Also, when they do have a wreck over there on the Autobahn, it usually is not minor in nature. The Autobahn is engineered differently as well with entrance and exit to the curves that taper gradually into the straights, transitions they are. Not the whole of the Autobahn is unlimited either. Here curves are pretty constant in radius throughout, and I don't see a major rebuilding of interstates to allow people to travel at 100 in the shadow of current energy costs and demands.

Your idea of hoping the DA is "reasonable" and willing to bump it down is probably a rather ''unreasonable'' wish.

You're toast I think. You don't want it on your record? Then slow down.

Sorry ... just the facts. :)

PPDMO373
09-03-2006, 11:21 PM
Also, when they do have a wreck over there on the Autobahn, it usually is not minor in nature. The Autobahn is engineered differently as well with entrance and exit to the curves that taper gradually into the straights, transitions they are. Not the whole of the Autobahn is unlimited either. Here curves are pretty constant in radius throughout, and I don't see a major rebuilding of interstates to allow people to travel at 100 in the shadow of current energy costs and demands.

First MVA that I had to work when I was in the military over there was 22 vehicles on the A-3 Autobahn..... :rolleyes:

VA Dutch
09-03-2006, 11:48 PM
Aside from construction differences between the US Interstates and the German Autobahn, you must factor in the differing behavior & skill levels of German versus American drivers.

First, as mentioned above, getting a license in Germany is more difficult and takes more time. By the time a German driver hits the road, they've had mandatory classroom time and professional instruction under various road conditions. I don't know if it has changed in recent years, but it used to be that one had to reach the age of 18 before obtaining a license. (To be fair to that issue, though, you should realize that there is less of a need for young folks to drive over there; primarily because there is such an excellent mass transit system that includes buses, streetcars, trains and trolleys.)

Second, there is a lot more of an "art" to driving in Germany versus here. Sadly, most folks in the USA just get from Point A to Point B with as little effort as possible. Part of the European culture involves exhibiting courtesy to other motorists -- rather than the "I will get what I want - screw you" attitude of so many Amiercans. They actually have a hand gesture to indicate being sorry for making an error -- kind of the opposite of hand signals used here.
:rolleyes:

Third, the Polizei vigorously enforce lane discipline and turn signal usage; unlike the USA where far too many people plop their fat azzes out in the left lane and become rolling obstacles. Hogging the left hand lane in Germany is verboten, and you are required to yield for faster traffic trying to overtake you.

Finally, drunk driving is nearly unheard of over there - despite having no real drinking age (it is 18, but is seldom enforced at all); and odd weather conditions & higher speeds necessitate one paying a lot more attention to the road ahead. The worst part about Germany is driving in some of the cities and trying to stay out of the way of Germans who go 100 mph in thick fog.
:eek:

Instead of actually trying to improve the quality of driving skill of the average US motorist, we just keep passing more laws that try to "dumb down" everyone else to match the lowest common denominator. I love the USA and never plan to live anywhere else on the planet.....but we could take some lessons from our German friends on how to properly drive safely, quickly and efficiently. Speed itself is not the issue, but how people deal with the speed.

Sorry for veering off course, but I was not the first (or only) person to bring the Autobahn into the discussion.

P.S. I was in Germany back during the 1980s, but I have been told that things are largely the same as they were back then - except for fewer stretches of the Autobahn having no speed limits nowadays.

Trucker
09-04-2006, 10:08 AM
and that there was highway construction on this highway.

105 mph in a contruction zone? :eek:

rx8rider
09-04-2006, 10:54 AM
105 mph in a contruction zone? :eek:

No! What I meant to say though is that there were still some construction vehicles in the middle grass area and variuos hardware, sandbags, etc.. left over from previous construction that is now complete. For the record, I NEVER speed in a construction zone. I respect the job that they do and I would never do anything to harm them, especially since they're very vulnerable to accidents caused by poor drivers.

motorwaycop
09-04-2006, 04:02 PM
as a british cop working the motorway(Autobahn/freeway) constantly I have to say road speeds for cars is generally about 80mph whn traffic allows. My partner and I only ticket at 90mph + and although someone is supposed to go to court at speeds over 95 if they pass the attitude test and there were no other problems we normally drop the speed shown to under 95 for a ticket as that way they don't lose their licence-job-wife-house etc. However getting a licence here is as easy as a click on the internet to buy another european states licence and then exchange it for a UK one.

SgtScott31
09-04-2006, 04:43 PM
Whether 94mph or 105mph, what's the difference? You were still traveling at 20+ mph over the posted limit. I would have cited you for reckless too.

You never said what your actual speed was.

I couldn't see any DA reducing a speeding offense with that type of speed involved.

rx8rider
09-05-2006, 12:51 PM
Well, I bit the bullet on this one. I went to court this morning (even though I wasn't required to per the ticket) thinking that I might get a chance to speak to the the DA and plead it down. Well, being that it was my first time in court, I was mistaken. I (and all others present) had to get up in front of the jusdge and plead guilty, not guilty...I asked if I could plead no contest or even guily and just pay the fine as stated on the ticket and be done with it all. He pointed out that he'll have the right to suspend my licence and that I should plead not guilty at this point and seek legal council. So now I'm thinking that this went from manageable to really bad. I quickly left court and spoke to the lady at the front desk who takes care of the fines and told her how I was confused and I'd like to pay the fine and be done with it. Luckily, she agreed and this is all taken care of. I realize that I'm very lucky to only have been fined $180 and 4 points, it could have been a lot worse. I think that I learned my lesson and I'll definitly be taking it easy out there from now on. I'm honestly considering sending the officer who stopped me a thank you letter for not being a hard***** and for only writing the ticket as he did.

TGM
09-08-2006, 11:31 PM
I'm a pilot, and I came up with a great idea - let the FAA provide training and licenses for driving just like the pilot's license. Here is a glimpse of what would happen:

You would log hours of instruction in your driver log book as a passenger observing the "CDI" - Certified Driving Instructor.

With a sign off from the CDI - you would then start to drive and practice your moves. When you start getting good - he will sign an endorsement and send you on your 1st solo drive (but not before your complete medical physical exam and certificate). After a few solo drives without bending any metal, you will do your solo cross-country. Another 40 hours of instruction driving, you will log your required number of hours driving on blacktop, concrete, city & county driving, driving in rain, etc... Don't forget to log your required number of night time driving hours. Finally, you will take your driving test with an FAA examiner.

Congrats - you passed - now you can legally drive the two seater 1975 mazda you trained in !

Wanna drive a 4dr Ford? OK - more training in that model. Wanna drive a Mercedes? Grab your wallet, you will need that high performance endorsement first! Need to drive a motorhome, well log some hours in the full motion simulator first to save some money..

Don't forget to get your Freeway endrosement before taking that entrance ramp..

OK, that was fun - hope you enjoyed the humor...

SgtScott31
09-09-2006, 02:31 AM
I'm a pilot, and I came up with a great idea - let the FAA provide training and licenses for driving just like the pilot's license. Here is a glimpse of what would happen:

You would log hours of instruction in your driver log book as a passenger observing the "CDI" - Certified Driving Instructor.

With a sign off from the CDI - you would then start to drive and practice your moves. When you start getting good - he will sign an endorsement and send you on your 1st solo drive (but not before your complete medical physical exam and certificate). After a few solo drives without bending any metal, you will do your solo cross-country. Another 40 hours of instruction driving, you will log your required number of hours driving on blacktop, concrete, city & county driving, driving in rain, etc... Don't forget to log your required number of night time driving hours. Finally, you will take your driving test with an FAA examiner.

Congrats - you passed - now you can legally drive the two seater 1975 mazda you trained in !

Wanna drive a 4dr Ford? OK - more training in that model. Wanna drive a Mercedes? Grab your wallet, you will need that high performance endorsement first! Need to drive a motorhome, well log some hours in the full motion simulator first to save some money..

Don't forget to get your Freeway endrosement before taking that entrance ramp..

OK, that was fun - hope you enjoyed the humor...

That IS pretty funny. I wish our driver testing would be half as hard as what is done in the UK. I have alot of family in England and it's amazing how quick you can fail for doing something as simple as rolling back while stopped (w/o handbrake).

Unsworn
09-09-2006, 02:43 AM
lol. I do feel like I'm in a cockpit but no, I was driving a sports car (in sig) and i felt very much in control and safe, but I guess that really isn't the issue here.
I'd consider yourself lucky, and I know how you feel. However I have found a far safer and less expensive way to go about getting that speed fix, I highly reccomend you look into (if you haven't already) SCCA or NASA Pro Racing, both offer programs in which you can recieve a competition lisence and go as fast as you want on a clsed track with saftey workers at every corner. I find it a really fun way to enjoy the weekend, and because I get it all out of my system on the weekend I have no issue being a well behaived driver during the week; and though it may seem costly it sure beats paying tickets and higher insurance. Plus they make sure they weed out the "accidents waiting to happen" and being around competent drivewrs is always a plus.

kr1s
09-09-2006, 11:06 AM
Edit...
Kris

trooperden
09-10-2006, 04:25 PM
you get caught driving that fast and want a break on the fine and points, now that is a joke. I would have towed your vehicle, and I don't place much value on your assessment of you being a safe driver. I am concerned how many times you did this stupid act and didn't get caught. Take all that so called sjill and use it on a car track

Centurion44
09-10-2006, 06:17 PM
I was cited for 105 in a 65 zone on 71 S in Ohio.

Were you speeding or not?


I would very much like to keep this incident (and the points) off of my record and I was wandering what advice you might have.

My advice? In the immortal words of Jim Carrey in Liar, Liar: STOP BREAKING THE LAW, *******!!


I'm hoping that the DA will be reasonable and bump it down when I go speak to him this week. Any advice is appreciated. Thanks

Reasonable? Like you were reasonably going the speed limit?

Listen, dirtbag, you can't commit unreasonable acts and then expect no consequences. Since all of a sudden you pick now to be worried about your license, I can only assume this is the latest in a long list of traffic violations.

You deserve everything the judge throws at you.

Want to beat a ticket? Don't speed, genius.

rx8rider
09-10-2006, 11:31 PM
Were you speeding or not?



My advice? In the immortal words of Jim Carrey in Liar, Liar: STOP BREAKING THE LAW, *******!!


I can only assume this is the latest in a long list of traffic violations.

You deserve everything the judge throws at you.

Want to beat a ticket? Don't speed, genius.

Um, no! This is the first traffic violation (first violations of any kind for that matter) that I received. As far as beating the ticket, my reasoning was that I admitted to the officer who stopped me that I was speeding, just not quite that fast. I felt that it was completely within my legal rights to try and see what I can do to minimize the damage. Let's be honest here, people pay lawers all the time to get these kinds of things "reduced". If the law allows it, then you have no right to knock me or any one else who attemps to play within the legal circus. As discussed before, unless you're living in a vaccuum, there's more to this than the saety of civilians....there's a bottom line ($) here and someones got to fund it. I'm not denying that I broke the PSL and that I shouldn't be puished or that the PSL does not have value, I'm just saying that at first, I was curious to see what was within my legal rights disputing this incident. At the end of the day, I went ahead and paid the fine and I do consider myself lucky. Oh, and good day to you too :)

rx8rider
09-12-2006, 12:52 PM
Just one more question; When an officer pulls up my record/MVR, what shows up on screen? The violation code (speeding) or the actual speed that was committed (105/65)? Thanks

MarineGrunt
09-13-2006, 11:12 AM
I would have towed the vehicle and written a blue copy for reckless driving and off to the county jail with 1 prisoner.

MikeKV
09-16-2006, 11:42 PM
My advice - avoid attempting to talk to the DA and most certainly do not go to court. Pay the ticket and most importantly slow down. I just came from court where unless defendants had a legitimate reason for their infraction the judge tacked on a larger fine and saw where on one infraction more points were tacked on. As suggested by a few others you were really lucky that you weren't carted in when you were pulled over. Pay the ticket immediately and learn to slow down.