Pledge of Allegiance [Archive] - Police Forums & Law Enforcement Forums @ Officer.com

Deputy757

12-15-2002, 03:32 PM

The father who sued to have the Pledge of Allegiance removed from public schools (and won) has been deemed to have had the right to bring this suit even though he does not have legal custody of his daughter. <a href="http://news.findlaw.com/ap_stories/other/1110/12-4-2002/20021204133005_13.html" target="_blank">FindLaw</a>
By the way, the mother, who does have legal custody, does NOT oppose her daughter saying the Pledge and states her daughter doesn't mind either.
The 9th Circuit Court of Appeals stayed their decision in this case while this matter (and another) was decided. Of course, if one were a betting person, odds are they will be reversed..YET AGAIN! :D
I'm interested in how this one will play out, but also curious about another matter. How can you be able to dispute what your child is learning or doing in school, if you do not share legal custody and can't even dispute WHERE your child goes to school. :confused:

retired

12-15-2002, 04:11 PM

deputy,

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Deputy757:
The father who sued to have the Pledge of Allegiance removed from public schools (and won) has been deemed to have had the right to bring this suit even though he does not have legal custody of his daughter. <a href="http://news.findlaw.com/ap_stories/other/1110/12-4-2002/20021204133005_13.html" target="_blank">FindLaw</a>
By the way, the mother, who does have legal custody, does NOT oppose her daughter saying the Pledge and states her daughter doesn't mind either.
The 9th Circuit Court of Appeals stayed their decision in this case while this matter (and another) was decided. Of course, if one were a betting person, odds are they will be reversed..YET AGAIN! :D
I'm interested in how this one will play out, but also curious about another matter. How can you be able to dispute what your child is learning or doing in school, if you do not share legal custody and can't even dispute WHERE your child goes to school. :confused: <hr /></blockquote>I would imagine that one doesn't have to have any custody rights, but merely visitation rights to challenge anything they perceive might be harmful or an improper exposure to their child.

After all, he is the biological father.

Personally, I totally agree with the 9th Circuit on this one. And I usually don't agree with many of their decisions.

Deputy757

12-15-2002, 04:17 PM

I would tend to agree with you on that point of view...regarding the father having the right to challenge that. I was only surprised that the system allowed him to do so when he wouldn't even have a say in where his child went to school.
Of course, it's California and that could explain it all! :D

xyneshia

12-15-2002, 05:03 PM

Deputy,

I remember hearing about this case, but never heard how it ended. When I was in school we all were REQUIRED to stand and Pledge Allegiance, is it voluntary now? Or is it altogether banned?

shooter1201

12-15-2002, 05:11 PM

It's voluntary in MY school. I encourage its recitation every morning during homeroom activities.

For those that say it SHOULDN'T be said in school...and YOU in fact DID recite it when in school...I'd be curious to note in what manner you feel you were HARMED in so doing.....IF you feel you were.

Deputy757

12-15-2002, 05:25 PM

xyneshia,
The 9th circuit court of appeals, which covers nine states (California, Arizona, Washington..to name a few), has ruled that the reciting of the Pledge with "one nation under God" in public schools violates the 1st Amendment (Freedom of Religion). They have stayed their decision pending the outcome of another matter (I don't know what that is). If they do implement their initial finding, I'm fairly certain it will be overturned. They are overturned more than any other court of appeals as a matter of course.
It will be interesting to see which way it goes though.

retired

12-15-2002, 05:26 PM

Unless I'm not current, I believe that the SC ruled in the case of West Virginia Board of Education VS Barnette, that students could not be compelled to recite the Pledge.

Quite frankly, I would feel better if the students wanted to say the pledge than forced to say it.

retired

12-15-2002, 05:27 PM

Shooter,

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by shooter1201:
It's voluntary in MY school. I encourage its recitation every morning during homeroom activities.

For those that say it SHOULDN'T be said in school...and YOU in fact DID recite it when in school...I'd be curious to note in what manner you feel you were HARMED in so doing.....IF you feel you were.<hr /></blockquote>I support the voluntary idea. I mentioned in a previous post that I feel better if the kids wnat to recite he pledge rather than forcing them to do it!

Deputy757

12-15-2002, 05:27 PM

Retired, you are probably correct. I don't think this issue is one of being forced to say it, I think it's whether public schools can allow it to be said at all (in it's current form).

Sparky

12-15-2002, 06:26 PM

I just have to chime in here and share one of my BIGGEST PET PEEVES IN THE WHOLE WIDE WORLD!!!

namely that people recite the Pledge of Allegiance WRONG!

yeah.. I said it! I'm going there! Listen up!

Most people say it thusly:

I pledge allegiance/
to the flag/
of the United States of America/
and to the Republic/
for which it stands/
one Nation/
under God/
indivisible/
with liberty/
and justice/
for all./

Wrong answer.. Since we are older than 6 now, and don't recite by rote, let's try it this way..

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America/
and to the Republic for which it stands/
one Nation under God/
indivisible/
with liberty and justice for all./

The IMPORTANT part is that it isn't

one nation/
.
<big pause>
.
under God/

It's all one phrase, as in

"...one Nation under God..."

If we all start saying it correctly.. it'll be a MOVEMENT!!

At the end, it is optional to add one of the following:

"Hell yeah!"
"D@mn skippy!"
"Get some!"
"That's what I'm talkin' about!"
"In your FACE!"
or a suitable "rebel yell" if you think you can pull it off.

[ 12-15-2002, 06:30 PM: Message edited by: Sparky ]

shooter1201

12-15-2002, 06:28 PM

By all means, retired. I support the voluntary(peer pressure can be a wonderful tool :) ) recitation of The Pledge. Ever tried making kids do anything these days? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[ 12-15-2002, 06:31 PM: Message edited by: shooter1201 ]

Sig220Man

12-15-2002, 06:42 PM

Sparky,

I think the reason it's recited wrong is that it was taught to us that way when we were knee high to grasshoppers. At that age we're not keen on a "massive" download of information, so we're given the Pledge bit by bit, until we can master it. It then is recited all the way to death in the very same manner in which we were taught.

It's also taught that way in an effort to keep us "synchronized" when we recite it. If you've ever heard elementary school age children try to recite anything together, even if reading from a book, and you'll know what I'm saying.

Mike Tx

12-15-2002, 07:50 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />The 9th circuit court of appeals, which covers nine states (California, Arizona, Washington..to name a few), has ruled that the reciting of the Pledge with "one nation under God" in public schools violates the 1st Amendment (Freedom of Religion).<hr /></blockquote>Normal people would think that not being allowed to recite it would be a violation of the 1st Amendment(freedom of speech). But the ninth circuit most likely ain't normal.

Sig220Man

12-15-2002, 07:59 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Mike Tx:
But the ninth circuit most likely ain't normal.<hr /></blockquote>It isn't Mike. The "Wacky Ninth" has the distinction of being the most overruled appellate court in the country.

xyneshia

12-15-2002, 08:34 PM

Shooter,
I said the Pledge every morning in preschool and primary school (as required) at every assembly in junior high (as required) and at every assembly and sports game in high school (voluntary). In secondary school we were even "forced" to sing the national anthem at assemblies and listen to the band attempt to play it at football games. No harm done! I have yet to meet a person who claims that any of these activities "violated" them. America is a great country, there is nothing wrong with showing how much we appreciate America by listening to a song or reciting a few words. I knew a few people who, for religous reasons, chose not to partake of such activities. On the rare occasion when they were asked 'why' by staff, they replied "Religious Conviction" and that was that. Nobody was ever forced to do it or punished for not doing it. :D

shooter1201

12-15-2002, 09:53 PM

Exactly! I have several Jehovah's Witness kids in class. They aren't permitted to say it in class, participate in Christmas recitals, etc. They eagerly accept the small gifts I pass out before leaving for The Holidays, though. :)

xyneshia

12-15-2002, 10:10 PM

:cool: hello again shooter,
I do beleive that most of the kids who didn't say it were Jehovah's Witness's. I don't remember one of them ever causing trouble over it either! They simply remained silent. No problem.
:cool:

CinaC

12-15-2002, 11:07 PM

I really wish "Under God" hadn't been added to the Pledge back in the fifties. I'm sure the author -- a socialist priest -- would have put "under God" in it if he'd wanted too. Author knows best. Down with McCarthism!

xyneshia

12-15-2002, 11:24 PM

CiaJ,
I'm guessing that ' "The face of terror is not the true faith of Islam." - President George W. Bush' only appears on your messages becuase you found it soooo offensive that our PRESIDENT who is a part of the GOVERNMENT would so blatantly endorse a religion?

Deputy757

12-16-2002, 08:21 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by xyneshia:
CiaJ,
I'm guessing that ' "The face of terror is not the true faith of Islam." - President George W. Bush' only appears on your messages becuase you found it soooo offensive that our PRESIDENT who is a part of the GOVERNMENT would so blatantly endorse a religion?<hr /></blockquote>Either that or CiaJ is just showing how wrong a president can be!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

xyneshia

12-16-2002, 12:56 PM

:D Deputy,
Thank you, your probably right....CiaJ is also showing how wrong our president can be. :p :p

CinaC

12-16-2002, 02:03 PM

I hardly see how Bush's statement constitutes a government endorsement of a religion. Rather, the quote exemplifies the evils of organized religion. Radical Islam is what happens when people's faith is directed through a middle-man to God, instead of directly TO God.

xyneshia

12-16-2002, 02:30 PM

CiaJ, Just the other day you said that teachers shouldn't be allowed to say Merry Cristmas, but you don't have a problem with our president going on tv in front of the whole nation and say that
"The face of terror is not the true faith of Islam." Apparently you only dissagree with religious symbols/sayings that don't endorse Islamic Faith. He could've gave a speech without any mention of any faith. I remember his speech, he was CLEARLY telling the nation what a GREAT and PEACEFUL religion Islam is. If you didn't catch on to that, you need to listen to his speach again. :mad: :mad: :mad: :p :p :p

CinaC

12-16-2002, 03:51 PM

Yeah and he goes to church and worships, but you don't see me screaming "Government employees can't be religious!" ... now do you? Also, given the context of the speech (in the aftermath of 9/11, with several domestic incidents of violence on Muslims, Arabs, or those who appeared to be of either group), the message was a lot more important than "merry christmas"

xyneshia

12-16-2002, 04:31 PM

CiaJ,
1.I never said that you implied that Gov't people can't be religious!
2. So, if it's "more important" than it's okay?
Just pointing out that you (you seem to be offended at EVERYTHING) have no problem with the president endorsing Islam but have a problem with a teacher wishing people Merry Christmas!? Or a Christmas tree in a school?! Puuleeeease! If you can "understand" the president endorsing Islam after America was attacked by a bunch of crazed muslims why the hell can't you "understand" Merry Christmas at Christmas time? oh, wait, i've got it........Maybe if a bunch of "Extreme" Christmas Caroler's cause mass destruction, it would then become appropriate for teachers (or gov't officials) to say "Merry Christmas" without you being offended? :o

209

12-16-2002, 05:57 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by shooter1201:
It's voluntary in MY school. I encourage its recitation every morning during homeroom activities.

For those that say it SHOULDN'T be said in school...and YOU in fact DID recite it when in school...I'd be curious to note in what manner you feel you were HARMED in so doing.....IF you feel you were.<hr /></blockquote>I HAD to recite it every day in school for the entire 12 years of my public school experience. And boy the harm it did! After graduating, I was so indoctrinated from the brain-washing, I joined the Marines, because I was told the Pledge wanted me to. Then after getting out of the Corps, I joined the National Guard for another 18 years. All of that was due to the mandated Pledge. Oh, the horror of it all! I still stand and pay respect to the flag and can't even consider burning one in protest due to that governmental policy that was in effect for those years. God forbid we subject the children to the same inhumane practice. We should not teach them anything about pride of country or flag.

Righttttt!

Deputy757

12-17-2002, 10:12 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by C in a J:
 Radical Islam is what happens when people's faith is directed through a middle-man to God, instead of directly TO God.<hr /></blockquote>Islam does not have to be "radical" for followers to cause harm to others that are not of the faith. That's a basic part of the religion. That'd not to say that ALL muslims adhere to those instructions, just as not all Christians do things that they should. The big difference is that when Christians act like Christians should, people don't die in horrific terrorist attacks!

[ 12-17-2002, 10:15 AM: Message edited by: Deputy757 ]

CinaC

12-17-2002, 12:57 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />The big difference is that when Christians act like Christians should,<hr /></blockquote>Right, er, so can you back up your allegation that Islam promotes terrorism? Because I think the biggest cop-out is when right-wingers say "no, it's a tenant of this religion to behave this way, but when Christians behave that way, it isn't the fault of the religion."