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FLLawdog
06-26-2002, 08:04 AM
From www.orlandosentinel.com (http://www.orlandosentinel.com)

A Muslim woman from Winter Park is being "hypersensitive" because she refuses to show her full face for a drivers-license picture and should be required to remove her veil for the photograph, an attorney for the state said in a recent court brief.

The court filing outlines the state's arguments going into Thursday's showdown between the American Civil Liberties Union and the state's Department of Highway Safety and Motor Vehicles in the case of Sultaana Freeman. In the document, the state also says driving is a privilege, not a right.

And law-enforcement concerns after Sept. 11 should override Freeman's contention that her constitutional rights are being violated, Assistant Attorney General Jason Veil wrote.

Howard Marks, Freeman's lawyer, argues that her religious freedom, freedom of speech, equal protection, right to privacy and due process were violated by the state's cancellation of her license in December.

Freeman's challenge rests on her deeply held beliefs that she should not show her face to strangers or men outside her family. Her veil, called a niqab, conceals all of her face except her eyes.

Veil, who represents Florida Attorney General Bob Butterworth's office, said there are "legitimate public safety concerns" that limit Freeman's rights. The state must be able to identify drivers, criminals and accident victims, he argued.

"The reasonable person in Florida is not offended by having to sit for a driver license photo," Veil wrote. "This plaintiff is hypersensitive."

Orange County Circuit Judge Ted Coleman will hear these and other arguments Thursday in the civil suit filed by Freeman, whose license was canceled after the Department of Highway Safety and Motor Vehicles discovered her veiled face in a check of its drivers licenses database.

The case pits civil liberties against security concerns in the post-Sept. 11 era. Observers are closely monitoring the case for the precedent it might set.

Marks, who is backed by the ACLU, also argues that other states have accommodated devout Christians who did not want their pictures on licenses because of their interpretation of the Bible's second commandment against "graven" images.

In addition, Marks and the ACLU said the state is misinterpreting drivers-license statutes, and its arguments are misleading because the state has never banned veiled drivers.

"Nowhere in Florida statutes does it state that petitioner [Freeman] cannot be wearing a veil or in any way have her face covered," Marks wrote in a court filing. Whether state statutes mandate a "full-face" photograph is also a point of contention in the case. Marks said the law is vague. The state argues otherwise.

Marks also said the state acted hastily and arbitrarily to cancel Freeman's license. The state did not seek a hearing and violated its own procedures by giving Freeman less time than required by law to get a new license, Marks said.

Freeman's case in Orange Circuit Court has been divided into two civil suits. One asserts her constitutional rights were violated under the state's Religious Freedom Restoration Act of 1998, which protects religious practices against government interference. The other says the division of drivers licenses failed to follow procedure when it revoked her license.

The suits seek reinstatement of her license using the photo with the veil.

Randall Marshall, the ACLU's legal director in the Florida office, said the fact that only one other motorist was ordered to unveil for a picture shows there will not be a stampede of drivers demanding to conceal their faces if an exception is made for Freeman.

I don't know, maybe I'm being overly simplistic or as some would call it "intolerent" or "insensitive", but how can a D/L be a form of photo identification if you can't see the most readily identified part of the human body...THE FACE...because the subject in the photo has it covered!

Let's also not forget, as was mentioned in the article, that driving is a privilege, not a Right. The DMV pretty much set the precedence when they initially issued her a DL (prior to 9-11) with the viel. Now, in the eyes of the ACLU, it looks like they are discriminating against her.

One issue I don't subscribe to is the 9-11 link in this decision. This should be common sense. Anybody can put on a veil, display your DL and suddenly become you. It's a personal security issue instead of a National security issue. I don't like the implications made, which opened the door (like they needed an open door) for the ACLU to get involved, that because she is Muslim and this must be done because of terrorist threats. This makes it look the decision was made simply because she is Muslim. I think we are all adult enough to realize this isn't true, but that one suggestion makes it look bad.

CinaC
06-26-2002, 02:58 PM
other states have accommodated devout Christians who did not want their pictures on licenses because of their interpretation of the Bible's second commandment against "graven" images.

I agree with you. However, if this case was in a state that had accomodated the devout Christians mentioned above, I'd be 100% behind this woman and the ACLU.

555
06-26-2002, 03:47 PM
Originally posted by Crazy in a Jeep:
<STRONG>

I agree with you. However, if this case was in a state that had accomodated the devout Christians mentioned above, I'd be 100% behind this woman and the ACLU.</STRONG>

Either it's right or it's wrong. If you agree that wearing a veil was unreasonable than you disagree that accomodating Christians was reasonable.

Bill R
06-26-2002, 03:56 PM
I bet she has a heck of a time cashing a check!

FLLawdog
06-26-2002, 04:09 PM
Photo ID is simply that...photo ID!!! I don't care who it is, Muslim, Jew, Christian, Atheist, Agnostic or Joe Bob Bubba's Church of Everything Cool. If the State wants you to provide an image of your face and you refuse, then you don't get no stinkin' license!!! Like I said, they set a pretty bad precedence and I plum forgot about the Chrisitan group. This whole thing has been going for a long time and I saw the latest article and decided to post it.

555
06-26-2002, 04:22 PM
It seems that Islam as interpreted by many Arabs (I am guessing an she is an Arab due to the veil)prohibits women from driving- so if she can drive now- she should have no problem taking off her veil. Selective religion-it's just an excuse to make everyone cater to you.

[ 06-27-2002: Message edited by: 555 ]

FLLawdog
06-26-2002, 04:33 PM
Damn, 555! This whole time I thought we'd disagree on this :p :D !

555
06-26-2002, 04:46 PM
Originally posted by FLLawdog:
<STRONG>Damn, 555! This whole time I thought we'd disagree on this :p :D !</STRONG>

H*ll no! I'm with you on this one.

:D

[ 06-26-2002: Message edited by: 555 ]

CinaC
06-26-2002, 04:50 PM
If you agree that wearing a veil was unreasonable than you disagree that accomodating Christians was reasonable.

I think anyone wanting a Driver's License should have to present their face to be photographed for said license.

HOWEVER. If a state made an accomodation for Christians on the basis of their religion, but did not make a similar accomodation for this woman on the basis of her religion, she would have a VERY strong case!

Zamboni
06-26-2002, 07:51 PM
If she such a blah, blah, blah, devout muslim who can't show her face then whats she doing driving. If she's that devout then by her faith she should be home having babies and taking care of the house.

Niteshift
06-26-2002, 09:40 PM
Since Florida wan't one of the states that made exception for devout Christians, it's really a moot point.

I've been following this for a while. It's bullsh*t. Driving is a privldge, pure and simple. If you don't want to play by the rules, don't drive.

klar
06-26-2002, 10:54 PM
<small>[ 09-27-2002, 04:21 AM: Message edited by: klar ]</small>

Zamboni
06-26-2002, 11:46 PM
I remember the first time I saw a driver's license without a photo. I no longer remember what state it was from but it freaked me out. No way can this be real I thought. Then it comes back valid. I'm like WTF. How do I prove he is who he says he is?

Not having a recognizable photo on a D.L. is stupid, unsafe, and wrong.

207
06-27-2002, 12:32 AM
What a farce.. if she was true to her faith she wouldn't be driving.
Driving is a previledge, no photo no license. One of the exceptions is for military personnel. Now that most DMV's have the digital images on file the "no photo" is almost a thing of the past.

jellybean40
06-27-2002, 04:25 AM
Originally posted by Zamboni:
<STRONG>I remember the first time I saw a driver's license without a photo. I no longer remember what state it was from but it freaked me out. No way can this be real I thought. Then it comes back valid. I'm like WTF. How do I prove he is who he says he is?

Not having a recognizable photo on a D.L. is stupid, unsafe, and wrong.</STRONG>

Color me stupid, unsafe, and wrong. i've been driving in NJ since i got my permit at age 16, im 43 now, and never had a picture driver's license. i have a picture postal ID and that's all.

Niteshift
06-27-2002, 04:46 AM
I had to renew mine by mail while I was in the Army. Completely valid. It simply said "vakid without photo or signature" where my picture should have been.

shadows
06-27-2002, 10:58 AM
Originally posted by jellybean40:
<STRONG>

Color me stupid, unsafe, and wrong. i've been driving in NJ since i got my permit at age 16, im 43 now, and never had a picture driver's license.</STRONG>

Excuse my ignorance but . . . how does that work? I had no idea there were drivers' licenses without photos. I thought that was half the point of the license.

555
06-27-2002, 11:14 AM
If they have been issuing licenses without a photo in the past they need to stop.

jarhead6073
06-27-2002, 12:04 PM
Originally posted by jellybean40:
<STRONG>

Color me stupid, unsafe, and wrong. i've been driving in NJ since i got my permit at age 16, im 43 now, and never had a picture driver's license. i have a picture postal ID and that's all.</STRONG>

My question is, Why? You're there in the state right? Why get a license with no picture?

Zamboni
06-27-2002, 12:34 PM
The explanation I got for the license without a photo was that the guy was overseas, ordered his license by mail, and picked it up when he got back home. It was a renewal but still anyone could have picked that up claiming to be this guy.

When I say its stupid, unsafe, and wrong I'm talking about what it does to police. Its hard enough to believe citizens about their identity given most of the ones we deal with would think nothing of lying to us. Now we have to deal with a worthless card with a name on it.

RachelR
06-28-2002, 12:22 AM
I had to renew mine by mail while I was in the Army. Completely valid. It simply said "vakid without photo or signature" where my picture should have been.

Did they mean naked or valid I wonder....? hehe

LeslieBScott
06-28-2002, 10:18 AM
In Texas, if you are out of state at the time of renewall, you may renew by mail and receive a "valid without photo" license. The catch is that you must have another photo ID in your possession or the license is not valid. Furthermore, it is only valid within the state for 30 days after you return to Texas.

As far as the Fla. case, if she has another photo ID, the license should be OK. But then again, if she has another photo ID, wheres the problem with a DL pic?

dkiefner
06-28-2002, 10:32 AM
She could also move to Vermont. I reluctantly gave up my non-photo VTDL after moving to FL, because when writing a check, nobody here believed it was a real DL.

I believe VT and NJ are the only states that don't require photo DL's.

nickg
06-28-2002, 04:03 PM
uhh..let's see. when our female military people are over in their land, they want our women to sit in the back of the jeep and dress in their style of clothes when not on duty...BUT they want the right to NOT show their faces on DLs over in OUR country....GET THE HELL OUTTA HERE AND GO BACK HOME!!!

CinaC
06-28-2002, 04:06 PM
BUT they want the right to NOT show their faces

Does one woman a "they" make?

555
06-28-2002, 04:24 PM
Originally posted by nickg:
<STRONG>uhh..let's see. when our female military people are over in their land, they want our women to sit in the back of the jeep and dress in their style of clothes when not on duty...BUT they want the right to NOT show their faces on DLs over in OUR country....GET THE HELL OUTTA HERE AND GO BACK HOME!!!</STRONG>

I don't believe it was specified that she was not American

nickg
06-28-2002, 04:25 PM
Originally posted by Crazy in a Jeep:
<STRONG>

Does one woman a "they" make?</STRONG>

so how many exceptions do you make then?
1? 100? 1000?

FLLawdog
06-28-2002, 04:31 PM
First, she is American. From America.

Second, and it has already been mentioned, I thought Muslim women were forbiden to do many things, including drive.

Third, even if she is forced to unveil for the photo but refuses in the real world for positive ID, what ramifications are there? I mean, I have motorcyclists remove their full face helmets for positive ID, whay shouldn't I do the same for anyone else?

Fourth, in answer to number three, I could take a thumb print on scene, but the only time I ever do that is when it's an NTA or if they don't have their ID on them. So, if I were to do that to this lady, she could easily make the claim that I fingerprinted her "because I am Muslim".

555
06-28-2002, 04:39 PM
Originally posted by FLLawdog:
<STRONG>First, she is American. From America.

Second, and it has already been mentioned, I thought Muslim women were forbiden to do many things, including drive.</STRONG>

I suppose it's more cultural than religious.

[ 06-28-2002: Message edited by: 555 ]

ZalmanEmmes
06-28-2002, 05:05 PM
Being an orthodox Jew (beard and all), I was quite perturbed at this story, until I realized it was a full face veil. My wife covers her hair and does not reveal her hair to anyone but me or herself. I asked her about this veil issue and she said that it's potentially a big problem. If you really really do believe in your faith and practice it, then this is understandable and what should happen is this veiled lady should be taken to a separate room where another lady takes her photo...that's if you want to be tolerant. There are solutions to this, however both sides seem to have got way too stroppy. And no, in no way am I any kind of a liberal!!

jarhead6073
06-28-2002, 05:17 PM
This woman used to be an evangelical minister! It's not like she grew up with Muslim belifs. It's not part of her heritage. I don't think that anyone should be granted a drivers license without a picture. The technology is in place now (in most places anyway) that a picture can be used over and over again. There is an exception for some military personell because they are often stationed out of their home state. Many states are "autoextend" states. Which means that your old license is valid untill you return to the state. Different states have different rules on this. Some states extend indefinately others only for a few months.

Don
06-28-2002, 05:28 PM
As was pointed out before: DRIVING IS A PRIVILEGE, NOT A RIGHT! There is nothing forcing this lady to go against her religion. HOWEVER, if she is gonna drive a car, then she should be forced to comply by the rules, or suffer the consequences. I just don't see where there is any type of legitimate argument available here. This is just plain BS.

We have laws in this country, some of them even for a valid reason. If you don't agree with the laws, work to get them changed. If you are unwilling to abide by the laws, then leave.

AND I DON'T GIVE A DAMN WHO YOU ARE.

jarhead6073
06-28-2002, 05:50 PM
Originally posted by ZalmanEmmes:
<STRONG>what should happen is this veiled lady should be taken to a separate room where another lady takes her photo...that's if you want to be tolerant.</STRONG>

The problem with this is that most modern DMV's have a digital camera connected to a desktop PC. It's as simple as just going to another room. Though you're right, there are way's that it could be done. That's IF that is her concern. I was thinking that her concern was that she didn't want people to see the picture of her face. In which case she's not going to be happy unless she gets a licnese with no picture.