Government sanctioned discrimination

[RachelR]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">SAN FRANCISCO (AP) - Nine Army linguists, including six trained to speak Arabic, have been dismissed from the military because they are gay.

The soldiers' dismissals come at a time when the military is facing a critical shortage of translators and interpreters for the war on terrorism.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><a href="http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20021114/ap_on_re_us/gay_military_linguists_2" target="_blank">http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20021114/ap_on_re_us/gay_military_linguists_2</a>

Regardless on how moral you believe homosexuality is, being gay is not a crime. The military isn't permitted to dismiss soldiers simply because they are black, asian, arabic etc.. therefore I can see no plausible justification for the continued discrimination shown towards gay soldiers.

Maybe someday we'll get out of the dark ages.

[SpecOpsWarrior]

They do have a policy, dont ask, dont tell.

"Seven of the soldiers were discharged after telling superiors they are gay"

They knew what would happen when they stated they were gay, sorry, but I dont have any sympathy for them.

<small>[ 11-14-2002, 11:19 PM: Message edited by: SpecOpsWarrior ]</small>

[RachelR]

Well, at least two of them didn't tell, they were caught.

I agree that soldiers do not need to tell their superiors that they are gay but I still see no justifiable reason to prohibit them from being in the military.

[SpecOpsWarrior]

Sorry, I was editing my original post while you were posting.

I dont have a problem with gay people, god knows I have argued about it plenty of times on this forum, but on this one, I'm siding with the military.

The first seven intentionally admitted that they were gay, they probably didn't like Army life and saw an easy way out.

The other two that were kicked out, were caught together, again, they knew the policy and made a choice to violate it.

[RachelR]

Before making assumptions, I'd actually like to know the circumstances in which these soldiers admitted their "gayness." I wonder how voluntary these confessions were...

[SpecOpsWarrior]

"I wonder how voluntary these confessions were..."

Come on Rach, you honestly think that the Army coerced them into confessing that they are gay?

Now who's making the assumption?

<small>[ 11-14-2002, 11:38 PM: Message edited by: SpecOpsWarrior ]</small>

[Delta_V]

I thought that the 'Don't ask, Don't tell' policy was ruled unconstitutional a while ago.

I was under the impression that the current policy just prohibits homosexual conduct in the military, not just being homosexual.

[SpecOpsWarrior]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by PatrickM98:
<strong>I thought that the 'Don't ask, Don't tell' policy was ruled unconstitutional a while ago.

I was under the impression that the current policy just prohibits homosexual conduct in the military, not just being homosexual.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The policy is still in effect, now I dont know about any previous, or pending, court cases surrounding it.

<small>[ 11-14-2002, 11:45 PM: Message edited by: SpecOpsWarrior ]</small>

[Watchman]

Raychel:
Regardless on how moral you believe homosexuality is, being gay is not a crime"

I dont beleive it is "moral". I beleive it is "immoral". Nice play on words.

Actually, being gay IS a crime in the military. When I was in the military to admit ones homosexuality resulted in immediate dismissal from the service.

You could not hold a secret clearance if you even admitted to a homosexual encounter even one time in your life. You were condsidered to be "unstable" or prone to blackmail to hide the facts on your sexlife.It was considered to be "conduct unbecoming an officer" and violated the code of honor that officers subject themselves to.

There are many issues in the military that severely conflict with a homosexual lifestyle.If you had even been in the military you might understand it. To look from the outside in and "assume" things are like they are in the civilian world is to be in error.

It was the Clinton error that these issues came up. We had a president with no morals making policys for the military that many senior officers couldnt live with and they chose to retire. All of a sudden a previously immoral and highly frowned upon lifestyle was to become the "norm" under the Clinton administration. Many problems and issues came up that normally wouldnt have.

Nobody gained from this. Our country lost many senior officers with decades of experience, the " straight" guys were forced to accept something that they believed was wrong, and gays that were not known to be gay suddenly came out of the closet and subjected themselves to much ridicule and harrasement that they were'nt previously used to when they remained anonymous.

Heres the thing...the "dont ask dont tell" policy works for them. Its when they come out and assert their status that they subject themsleves to trouble.

A Captain on a naval vessel, a Marine Corp Commandant, an Army Colonel, an AirForce Colonel or any officer in command generally reflects their opinions and upbringing in the way they do things and run their post. If they happened to think that homosexuality is wrong, then you would be better off just shutting up about it. You probably can find fault with that Im sure, but that is the way it is. To admit to it would definatley not be a career enhancing move.

Now before you counter and slam me on this,just remember that its not me that makes the policys. Im just trying to clear a few things up for you.

It is my opinion that it is counterproductive to allow gays in the military. That is not to say that some dont do an exellent job at what they do, but is it worth making 20 people in your unit put up with something that they beleive is wrong just to allow one to openly assert his sexuality ?

Ever hear of unit cohesion ? This kind of scenario dosent not help it one bit. Ive heard of stories about incidences like this from people that were or are still in the military. With all the things happeneing , this is one thing that should not have to be dealt with.

[Underdog]

Yes, its government sanctioned discrimination but no, it isn't illegal.

The Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution contains something called the equal protection clause. This clause says that no state shall deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws. The 14th Amendment is one of three amendments passed in the aftermath of the civil war. It was intended to eliminate slavery and at least some forms of discrimination.

In interpreting the equal protection clause, the U.S. Supreme Court has decided that there are protected classes and non-protected classes. Protected classes include race and gender. The Supreme Court has ruled on more than one occasion that sexual orientation is not a protected class. Thus, states may freely discriminate against gays and lesbians under the U.S. Constitution.

While the equal protection clause is not binding on the Federal government, the Fifth Amendment is. Through a strange chain of logic, the Supreme Court has decided that the 5th Amendment contains an equal protection component. This component is, for legal purposes, identical to the equal protection clause of the 14th Amendment. Since the 14th allows discrimination based on sexual orientation, so does the 5th. Hence, the military can legally discriminate against homosexuals unless prohibted by federal statute.

To the best of my knowledge, there is presently no federal statute that prohibits the military from discriminating based on sexual orientation.

<small>[ 11-15-2002, 02:35 AM: Message edited by: Underdog ]</small>

[Bill R]

RachelR
Well, at least two of them didn't tell, they were caught.

Gamble and former Pfc. Robert Hicks were discovered in Gamble's room during a surprise inspection in April, Gamble said.

Eeewwww!

I agree that soldiers do not need to tell their superiors that they are gay but I still see no justifiable reason to prohibit them from being in the military.

I don't think they are for just being gay. Saying they are, or engaging in gay sex are reasons for dismissal though. Adultery is also a crime under the UCMJ.

[Sparky]

It hasn't been pointed out yet, but Army linguists are almost always in positions which require high security clearances.

There are many things which will get your clearance pulled. I've seen people lose their clearance because they bounced too many checks.

If you lose your clearance, then you can't do your job. Unless you have another MOS or can reclass into another one, then you are likely to get the boot.

There are alot of other issues going into this than mere moral or ethical beliefs RachelR.

I am dissapointed that you seem to view the military as being nothing more than a bunch of neanderthals.

The fact of the matter is that there are very real and practical considerations that must be dealt with when you have people in highly sensitive positions working closely with foreign nationals in other countries.