Cell phone use by stopped traffic violators

[Kieth M.]

Hey everyone,

I'm about to suggest that our Department Think Tank (always including Risk Management) undertake a study and come up with some safety/4th Amendment guidelines for the use of cell phones by traffic violators when we've stopped them.

I'm aware that in the SF Bay Area, hoodlums being stopped for a cite have called their friends to swarm the scene of the stop.

Here in L.A. it appears, again appears only that a violator was on the phone while the officer wrote a cite. Then out of nowhere a drive-by shooter passed by and fired on the officers. No hits on PD, shooter got away.

Like you, I've seen the training materials on guns, OC spray, knives, and TASER's built into/hidden in cell phone bodies.

I personally would like it so a violator does not make a call during a stop, but in my opinion, I can no more keep a violator off the phone than I can prevent the violator from yelling across the street to a couple of friends - so long as the violator isn't inciting a lynching.

With some of our client-base, they call their dad, their mom, a cop friend, or worse, an attorney and try to hand the cell phone to the officer saying, "My attorney wants to talk to you." (I would decline and probably shut off the phone once it's handed to me)

Does anyone's department have anything already in place in regards to this?

If not, share some experiences or make suggestions as to what you'de like to see in some guidelines about the subject. Thanks!

[Seventy2002]

Cell phone jammers are available for under $300 (http://www.globalgadgetuk.com/Personal.htm).

http://www.globalgadgetuk.com/jpg/productslarge/SH066-cell-phone-jammer.jpg

Using one, however, is a violation of the Federal Communications Act of 1934.

[x-ray 4]

Here in South Carolina, we do politely tell the person driving, to hang up the phone until our interaction is complete. We tell them it is for their and our safety and to help expedite getting them back on the road.
So far, we have not had anyone insist on finishing their conversation.

[pkagel]

Kieth, is their an article on the shooting I could read?

[kirch]

If someone is talking on the phone when I approach them, I politely ask them to hang up the phone. If they don't, I carry on with my side of the conversation as if there were no phone involved. If they get into a bind because they didn't hear/listen to my instructions, that's their own fault.

[imtherookie]

In louisiana the resisting law is being changed at this time to include the use of cell phones after the police give you a lawful order to get off. IF you have them lawfully detained, or arrested or stopped they cant use it if the law passes.

[Kieth M.]

Kieth, is their an article on the shooting I could read?

I'll try and locate one...it was on the TV news.

[Kieth M.]

In louisiana the resisting law is being changed at this time to include the use of cell phones after the police give you a lawful order to get off. IF you have them lawfully detained, or arrested or stopped they cant use it if the law passes.

That's cool...I thought everything was laid back down there. You guys are ahead of the power curve on this one. I hope the law passes.

[LA Copper]

Keith,
regarding the incident you mentioned: I was at scene on this one. It was confirmed that the initial violator did call his buddies on his cell phone and they did respond. They did a drive-by shooting on the L-car in a stolen Camry. The shooters were caught after a short pursuit. However, the violator who was initially stopped, escaped.

Pkagel, This incident happened in LAPD's 77th Division, so if you go to our department website, lapdonline.org you might be able to find the story there.

[pkagel]

I didn't see it in the press releases. I'll keep looking though, thanks.

[tgace]

In louisiana the resisting law is being changed at this time to include the use of cell phones after the police give you a lawful order to get off. IF you have them lawfully detained, or arrested or stopped they cant use it if the law passes.


Keep us updated on that will ya? Id like to bring it before my Union and see if we cant get something like that moving up here.

[Drunkcop]

I've had a detainee call the calvary as well. My policy is they get off the phone. Period. If I have to take it I will. It's simply an officer saftey issue.

[pkagel]

Thanks Samuel.

[tpcop007]

Based on my training and experience I know the dangers that can come from a violator being on the phone, or even having the phone in his hand cellphone guns are out there), I always politely tell the violator to get off the phone so we can conduct business and he/she will be able to call them back as soon as we are done. So far I have never had anyone refuse, HOWEVER,

if they did I would tell them they need to hang up now. I would then tell them they are obstructing my investigation and causing an officer safety issue. Should they still refuse and it's the beginning of the stop and they have not given me their required papers, I would arrest them for obstruction. Same if they refused to get off all tiogether but did provide paper work.

Would be interesting to see how it would play out in court. I would argue that they are legally stopped and due to my training and experience I had to stay next to them so I could hear their conversation to make sure they aren't planning an ambush, which in return obstructs my duty to issue them a citation.

I can't ever see it getting this far, but I'm sure there's a candidate out there willing to try.

[John_Gonzales]

I have'nt had a problem with them not getting off the phone yet. Usually when I make my first contact I ask them to hang up the phone so we can continue with the business at hand. And it has worked out for me so far...Knock on wood.

[imtherookie]

I spoke to the state rep again yesterday about the cell phone law, he told me it should go through without a problem. He will use the officer saftey catch to get it done.

[imtherookie]

I spoke to the state rep again yesterday about the cell phone law, he told me it should go through without a problem. He will use the officer saftey catch to get it done.


HLS 06RS-194 ORIGINAL
Page 1 of 2
CODING: Words in struck through type are deletions from existing law; words underscored
are additions.
Regular Session, 2006
HOUSE BILL NO. 304
BY REPRESENTATIVE FAUCHEUX
CRIME: Provides relative to resisting an officer
1 AN ACT
2 To enact R.S. 14:108(B)(1)(e), relative to the crime of resisting an officer; to provide for
3 additional elements of the crime; and to provide for related matters.
4 Be it enacted by the Legislature of Louisiana:
5 Section 1. R.S. 14:108(B)(1)(e) is hereby enacted to read as follows:
6 §108. Resisting an officer
7 * * *
8 B.
9 * * *
10 (1) The phrase "obstruction of" as used herein shall, in addition to its
11 common meaning, signification, and connotation mean the following:
12 * * *
13 (e) The continued use of a cellular phone, pager, or any other electronic
14 communication device when ordered by a law enforcement officer to stop the use of
15 such device.
16 * * *
HLS 06RS-194 ORIGINAL
HB NO. 304
Page 2 of 2
CODING: Words in struck through type are deletions from existing law; words underscored
are additions.
DIGEST
The digest printed below was prepared by House Legislative Services. It constitutes no part
of the legislative instrument.
Faucheux HB No. 304
Abstract: Provides that as to the crime of resisting an officer, obstruction of an officer
includes the continued use of a cellular phone, pager, or any other electronic
communication device when ordered by a law enforcement officer to stop the use of
such device.
Present law provides that resisting an officer is the intentional interference with, opposition
or resistance to, or obstruction of an individual acting in his official capacity and authorized
by law to make a lawful arrest or seizure of property or to serve any lawful process or court
order when the offender knows or has reason to know that the person arresting, seizing
property, or serving process is acting in his official capacity.
Present law provides that obstructing a law enforcement officer, in addition to its common
meaning, signification, and connotation means the following:
(1) Flight by one sought to be arrested before the arresting officer can restrain him and
after notice is given that he is under arrest.
(2) Any violence toward or any resistance or opposition to the arresting officer after the
arrested party is actually placed under arrest and before he is incarcerated in jail.
(3) Refusal by the arrested party to give his name and make his identity known to the
arresting officer or providing false information regarding the identity of the arrested
party to the arresting officer.
(4) Congregation with others on a public street and refusal to move on when ordered by
the officer.
Proposed law retains present law and also provides that the continued use of a cellular
phone, pager, or any other electronic communication device when ordered by a law
enforcement officer to stop the use of such device constitutes obstruction of the officer.
(Adds R.S. 14:108(B)(1)(e))

[Fasteddie]

I will tell them firmly yet politely to get off the phone. I'll seize it if need be-and will justify my actions if called on it. If they pretend to hang up, and put it down I firmly tell them they are conducting an illegal wiretap and I will arrest them for this felony offense.

On rare occasion I have seized the phone, and have promptly returned it with the citation.

On a recent stop, I observed several individuals meeting up with the operator and reviewing the citation after I issued and cleared. I was so focused on the female operator who was becoming verbal and potentially increasingly difficult to control and I failed to scan my surroundings periodically during the stop.

This recently took place in my area at 0 dark thirty in a section 8 housing area.

Lesson learned.

209

[JCK 56]

If they pretend to hang up, and put it down I firmly tell them they are conducting an illegal wiretap and I will arrest them for this felony offense.

Can you please expand on this. A brief search did not reveal any related laws (federal laws).

Also does anyone know of ANY case law dealing with this? This is topic I have not thought about and will not be able to get to the library and on West Law for over a week. Any help is very appreciated. If I find anything I will pass it on.

Stay safe

John

[paraderest]

I'm more concerned about signing out at the end of the night then getting "in trouble" for denying somebody a cell phone call. One thing I know is that perps have perp friends and one bad guy at a time is enough for me to worry about. If they really won't get off the phone throw the cuffs on and charge with Obstucting Government Admin. (or whatever charge is similiar in your state).

[sflcop]

The other night I was out riding with our gang unit. Did a traffic stop on a subject that is fairly well known to us. They allowed him to talk on the phone during the traffic stop. Well.... after than ran him, a warrant was discovered. As he was being cuffed, his phone rand and another officer answered the call. His "boys" knew it was a cop on the other end and made all sorts of comments about how they knew where we were at that moment, how many of us there were, and how our vehicles were positioned. Continued to make general threats how they could come "cap all of us" if they wanted to. Needless to say, the AR's came out for the rest of the investigation (gun and drugs in car, etc...)

All could have been avoided if the original officer did not allow him to remain on the phone. WARNING - Just because you think they are off of the phone does not mean that they are. With all of the Bluetooth headsets out there, and the vehicles that now have Bluetooth built in, you need to be careful.

[So Fla Cop]

All could have been avoided if the original officer did not allow him to remain on the phone.

Good advice. Stop "Hood Link" before you get hurt. It only takes minutes for the savages to respond.

[oldcop1971]

Wiretap laws vary from state to state. In Alabama, it is legal to record a conversation as long as ONE of the parties being recorded is aware of it. Some states prohibit recording unless all parties are aware of it or the 15 seconds
beep' tone goes off. Since many cell phones have recording capabilites now, it is a revelant issue.
Had one stopped the other day who used his phone to call MOMMY since the police were harassing him again!! (whine, snivel) She shows up after he's been allowed to go on his way and we got into an intense discussion of what harassment was and what criminal code enforcement was. Next time she pulls that stunt, she WILL go to jail for obstructing govt operations. :D
We are a small town in a rural county without your big city gang problems (thank God), but can easily see the officer safety issue.
stay safe

[SCSOMike]

it would SEEM that when you stop someone, by law in TN, when you activate your emergency equipement, the subject is considered detained at the moment you turn on the equipment. any and all orders you give them should be followed or it would be not following an officers directions, hendering in an investigation, or something. surely someone has gotten creative on this. i had a little 21 y/o female i stopped one night who refused to get off the phone. i told her to end the conversation about 5 times, after that she realized she was fixing to be removed from her car and hung up. would you believe she had the nerve to complain about it? LT. told her she should have done what she was told in the first place and shouldn't have been speeding either.

[Seventy2002]

A driver used her cellphone camera when she was pulled over by a phony cop. (http://www.king5.com/localnews/stories/NW_042106WABfakecopKC.5ac20533.html)

Has anyone ever heard of a cop pretending to be a fireman?

[So Fla Cop]

Has anyone ever heard of a cop pretending to be a fireman?

No just a few who wished they took that job instead......

[biggreen]

Officer Safety: Some cellphones have the capability of having someone call them, without it ringing. When it connects, the "Bad guys" on the other end listen in on what questions are asked of the driver and what procedures law enforcement goes through on a stop. This has happened several times in the Border Patrol in narcotics seizures. This has also become popular with the MS-13 gang members. There are also companies that make guns designed to look like a cellphone. I've seen pictures and it would be hard to tell, especially at night. Personally, I would make it an officer safety issue, ask for their phone and make sure it is turned off. Be safe.

[raleigh03]

You Should Try Telling Some Of The Thugs In Southeast Raleigh To Shut The Phone Off During The Traffic Stop. See How Many Different Ways You Can Be Called A F***** Pig! Or Cracker M****f*****

[CDFinch]

B'ham, Alabama here, and what I do is easy:

"Hang up the phone until we are done."

Failure to do so results in them being put in the back of my car, for their safety and my own, plain and simple.

[Jack Price]

You're losing your edge. By the way JCK 56 worded the question you shoud have questioned whether he should be in the conversation. The administration of this site is VERY slack!

[Munlaw]

During any kind of contact with a person in where I'm issuing them a Ticket or summons, and they are talking on their cell phone, I ask them to finish their phone conversation and they can resume it when I am done with them, everyone has complied so far...

[fahrenheit]

Can you please expand on this. A brief search did not reveal any related laws (federal laws).

Also does anyone know of ANY case law dealing with this? This is topic I have not thought about and will not be able to get to the library and on West Law for over a week. Any help is very appreciated. If I find anything I will pass it on.

Stay safe

John

Can't speak for all states, but Illinois has a very restrictive eavesdropping statute that makes any "secret" (i.e. unknown to any of the involved parties) audio recording or transmission of a conversation a felony offense. The law even applies to law enforcement except in cases where a warrant has been issued for a wiretap or similar activity, or the audio recording of a traffic stop.

[AggiePhil]

Can't speak for all states, but Illinois has a very restrictive eavesdropping statute that makes any "secret" (i.e. unknown to any of the involved parties) audio recording or transmission of a conversation a felony offense. The law even applies to law enforcement except in cases where a warrant has been issued for a wiretap or similar activity, or the audio recording of a traffic stop.
That sucks. In Texas, only one of the parties has to be aware that it's being recorded.

[kansaslawdog31]

Anyone I stop gets off the phone. Period. I have only had a couple people argue with me about it, but I defused that with a quick statement about how would you feel if I got on my phone while they were trying to speak with me.

So far I haven't had to physically remove a subject from a cell phone on a traffic stop, but I am sure that it will happen one day. Hell just about every thing else has, LOL.

Everyone stay safe out there.

[Blackdog F4i]

I get crap here about this, but a kind explaination about officer discretion and if they would like to be arrested and have their car towed or impounded usually ends the objections.

No one talks on the phone WHILE I am conducting business. If we are determining if they are going to jail then their phone is removed from their person.

Recently we had a narcotics bust go bad because a probationary allowed a detainee on a car stop from the target make a phone call back to the target.

[CruiserClass]

I haven't heard a report of them in the States, but there are .22 pistols that look like cell phones. They hold four rounds and fire when certain keys are pressed.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2003/02/10/french_police_seize_guns_disguised/

Just something else to consider...

[MountainCop]

Can you please expand on this. A brief search did not reveal any related laws (federal laws).

Also does anyone know of ANY case law dealing with this? This is topic I have not thought about and will not be able to get to the library and on West Law for over a week. Any help is very appreciated. If I find anything I will pass it on.

Stay safe

John

Here's my humble opinion:

1. The officer is not a party to the call. As the phone is being used as a recording device, it requires the consent of ALL parties present. It's not a wiretap - it's a recording device. We (LEOs) have exceptions to that rule.

2. I've only had one individual refuse to hang up their cell phone when I approached their vehicle. She told me 'Just a minute, I'm on the phone'. I smiled and told her 'No you're not', confiscated the phone, and told the party on the other side 'She will call you back. She's getting a ticket right now'. I shut the phone off, handed it back to her, smiled, and said 'Let's try this again, I'm Officer...' Amazing how her attitude changed :D

[AggiePhil]

Here's my humble opinion:

1. The officer is not a party to the call. As the phone is being used as a recording device, it requires the consent of ALL parties present. It's not a wiretap - it's a recording device. We (LEOs) have exceptions to that rule.
This must differ from state to state. In Texas, only one of the parties has to be aware that recording is taking place.

[Memtndude]

Can you please expand on this. A brief search did not reveal any related laws (federal laws).

Also does anyone know of ANY case law dealing with this? This is topic I have not thought about and will not be able to get to the library and on West Law for over a week. Any help is very appreciated. If I find anything I will pass it on.

Stay safe

John

Sure John, it's not a federal law, it would be state laws. State laws that simply say you have to do any lawful command of a LEO when you're detained. A traffic stop is a detention. Not to mention the obstruction, and in some states, the unlawful audio laws.

[t150vsuptpr]

With some of our client-base, they call their dad, their mom, a cop friend, or worse, an attorney and try to hand the cell phone to the officer saying, "My attorney wants to talk to you." (I would decline and probably shut off the phone once it's handed to me)


Yeah, I've had a few try to hand a cell phone to me in the last couple years, and I've see a few accidently dropped on the side of the interstate (they aren't very rugged you know, one drop 4-5 feet, a mistep, and they're "toast").

Wife says I should give up that fried chicken at KFC, makes the fingers like real "slipperererereeee".

:D

[dpatrol]

Cell phones are great ,but a big pain in the butt for cops. It never fails I show up to investigate a crime and everyone is on the cellphone. Next thing I know carloads of people are showing up to get involved and simple DV turns into a riot. Be operating lights and siren , cars fail to pull over and when I finally pass they are usually on cellphone blabbing away.
I ask victims and complainants to hang up and if your suspect or object of my investigation I take the darn thing. Once had suspect in cuffs in back of squad, called friends to scene and almost released him. The other day I had a kid (23 yrs old) that just ran from other officers for a drug related offense. The suspect was in my squad and the next thing know he is trying to talk on his phone and he says its my mom. I talk to mom who is very polite and understanding, but doesnt think sonny did anything wrong, he's a good boy never been in trouble. Sonny turns out to be several time convicted felon on probation. I just shook my head, thugo calling mommy.
My favorite is when they call 911 right in front of me complaining of police harassment. Well I vented a little , I wish they made an affordable portable cell phone jammer, now that would come in handy.

[Memtndude]

Cell phones are great ,but a big pain in the butt for cops. It never fails I show up to investigate a crime and everyone is on the cellphone. Next thing I know carloads of people are showing up to get involved and simple DV turns into a riot. Be operating lights and siren , cars fail to pull over and when I finally pass they are usually on cellphone blabbing away.
I ask victims and complainants to hang up and if your suspect or object of my investigation I take the darn thing. Once had suspect in cuffs in back of squad, called friends to scene and almost released him. The other day I had a kid (23 yrs old) that just ran from other officers for a drug related offense. The suspect was in my squad and the next thing know he is trying to talk on his phone and he says its my mom. I talk to mom who is very polite and understanding, but doesnt think sonny did anything wrong, he's a good boy never been in trouble. Sonny turns out to be several time convicted felon on probation. I just shook my head, thugo calling mommy.
My favorite is when they call 911 right in front of me complaining of police harassment. Well I vented a little , I wish they made an affordable portable cell phone jammer, now that would come in handy.

I do too. I think if we have the right to order people off the cell phone, we should have the right to jam them so we know for a fact they're not being used. It's like RADAR, it's illegal in TN for anyone that's not an LEO to use a Radar gun, so they should make cell phone jammers the same way.